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Old 26th February 2013, 11:21 AM   #1
Dancing David
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UNC student faces honor code court for talking about rape

http://www.wral.com/unc-student-who-...tion/12150684/

Quote:
CHAPEL HILL, N.C. — A University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill sophomore says she feels like she is being targeted by the university after she spoke out on campus about how she was treated when she reported last year that she had been raped.

Landen Gambill says she is facing possible suspension or expulsion after an ex-boyfriend, who she says attacked her, filed a complaint with the student-run Honor Court that she created an "intimidating environment" for him when she recently spoke on campus.
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Old 26th February 2013, 11:38 AM   #2
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What the hell?
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Old 26th February 2013, 11:50 AM   #3
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It gets worse
Quote:
Gambill says that when she reported the assault to the university last spring, she was told to go through the Honor Court.

"The whole time in the Honor Court, they were asking me victim-blaming questions, like why I hadn't left him earlier or why was I ever alone with him, instead of asking him, 'Why did you do what you did?'"

The student was found not guilty, and Gambill says she feels like the new charge is in retaliation by the university for speaking out.
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Old 26th February 2013, 11:51 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
What the hell?
What part confuses you?

The part where the UNC justice system provides for those who have been falsely accused or unfairly persecuted?

Or that a student has dared to actually avail themselves of that provision?

Because you can't have it both ways, you know.

Either UNC has to accept all accusations of rape at face value, and disregard any protests from the accused. Or UNC has to allow the accused to contest the allegations and petition for redress if the accusations are not substantiated.

But you're saying "what the hell?" as if the accused should just sit down and shut up and play the part of a good little convicted and repentant rapist. What do you know about it?
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Old 26th February 2013, 11:57 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What part confuses you?

The part where the UNC justice system provides for those who have been falsely accused or unfairly persecuted?

Or that a student has dared to actually avail themselves of that provision?

Because you can't have it both ways, you know.

Either UNC has to accept all accusations of rape at face value, and disregard any protests from the accused. Or UNC has to allow the accused to contest the allegations and petition for redress if the accusations are not substantiated.

But you're saying "what the hell?" as if the accused should just sit down and shut up and play the part of a good little convicted and repentant rapist. What do you know about it?
Or UNC could refer all rape cases to the real judicial system and make it official policy not to deal with them at all in their "honor court."

ETA: Oh, I guess they did stop dealing with them...too late. Still, my "at all" above would include accused rapists who are bitching because their alleged victims won't recant or repress their story.
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Old 26th February 2013, 11:58 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What part confuses you?

The part where the UNC justice system provides for those who have been falsely accused or unfairly persecuted?

Or that a student has dared to actually avail themselves of that provision?

Because you can't have it both ways, you know.

Either UNC has to accept all accusations of rape at face value, and disregard any protests from the accused. Or UNC has to allow the accused to contest the allegations and petition for redress if the accusations are not substantiated.

But you're saying "what the hell?" as if the accused should just sit down and shut up and play the part of a good little convicted and repentant rapist. What do you know about it?
The part where sexual assault accusations of any kind were ever handled through the Honor Court.

I do get that it is possible this is an ex getting back at her former boyfriend and thought of posting on that possibility. However, she didn't name the guy if I'm not misreading. She was seeking to address how the university handled cases like hers when she was accused of making a bad environment for the boy.

That article obviously has nowhere near enough information about if her claim is substantiated or not. It does indicate that the university has had major issues with the ways it addresses sexual assaults and the Honor court.

I await more information, but it doesn't seem to be a very good system.

EDIT: Beat to it.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 26th February 2013 at 12:00 PM. Reason: to add
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Old 26th February 2013, 11:59 AM   #7
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I am waiting for one of these Universities to be hit with an obstruction of justice charge for directing a crime victim to go through an Honor Court instead of going directly to the police.

If my kid is ever the victim of crime on campus my advice will be to contact the local police first and then let them deal with the campus cops.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:02 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What part confuses you?

The part where the UNC justice system provides for those who have been falsely accused or unfairly persecuted?

Or that a student has dared to actually avail themselves of that provision?

Because you can't have it both ways, you know.

Either UNC has to accept all accusations of rape at face value, and disregard any protests from the accused. Or UNC has to allow the accused to contest the allegations and petition for redress if the accusations are not substantiated.

But you're saying "what the hell?" as if the accused should just sit down and shut up and play the part of a good little convicted and repentant rapist. What do you know about it?
This.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:04 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Or UNC could refer all rape cases to the real judicial system...
Or the alleged victim could.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:05 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What part confuses you?

The part where the UNC justice system provides for those who have been falsely accused or unfairly persecuted?

Or that a student has dared to actually avail themselves of that provision?

Because you can't have it both ways, you know.

Either UNC has to accept all accusations of rape at face value, and disregard any protests from the accused. Or UNC has to allow the accused to contest the allegations and petition for redress if the accusations are not substantiated.

But you're saying "what the hell?" as if the accused should just sit down and shut up and play the part of a good little convicted and repentant rapist. What do you know about it?
Or the part where if she brings a false claim in a court of law she can be prosecuted whereas doing so in an Honor Court is akin to eating your pudding before your meat.

Hold both parties to the legal standard of society when a crime is alleged, not some student led forum.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:31 PM   #11
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If it happened on campus, then UNC has it's own police force, who would be handling the case.

Not sure what is stopping her from filing a police report, and having the guy prosecuted.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:52 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
If it happened on campus, then UNC has it's own police force, who would be handling the case.

Not sure what is stopping her from filing a police report, and having the guy prosecuted.
From up thread:

Quote:
Gambill says that when she reported the assault to the university last spring, she was told to go through the Honor Court.
So, she is claiming that the University (not very specific) directed her away from the criminal court system and into the Honor Court.

The Police should be handling criminal matters, but her complaint is that the University discouraged that course of action.
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Old 26th February 2013, 12:57 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Or UNC could refer all rape cases to the real judicial system and make it official policy not to deal with them at all in their "honor court."

ETA: Oh, I guess they did stop dealing with them...too late. Still, my "at all" above would include accused rapists who are bitching because their alleged victims won't recant or repress their story.
^bingo^

The only reason a school administration wants control over such cases is to protect their corporate behinds, not the rights of victims or of the accused
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:15 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
From up thread:



So, she is claiming that the University (not very specific) directed her away from the criminal court system and into the Honor Court.

The Police should be handling criminal matters, but her complaint is that the University discouraged that course of action.
Unless UNC has her held under lock and key, I'm pretty sure she can go to the "real" police department and file a report.

I get the feeling there's a lot more going on here than is being reported.
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:24 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Unless UNC has her held under lock and key, I'm pretty sure she can go to the "real" police department and file a report.
And that makes the university directing her to the honor court acceptable in any way because?

Quote:
I get the feeling there's a lot more going on here than is being reported.
Probably.
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Old 26th February 2013, 01:41 PM   #16
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I'm a victim advocate for the local DA's office in a town with three major colleges. The reason for these dis-honor courts is that the schools then do not have to report a sexual assault to the UCR. The schools actively discourage police or DA intervention. Sometimes victims don't know their rights or the law and can be easily misled (or intimidated) by those with self-serving interests. Especially those in authority. The referals we get from these colleges is often from parents who become frustrated with these proceedings and begin to feel that "something isn't right". I've read notes from these type of hearings and they're terribly damaging to victims of sexual assault.
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Old 26th February 2013, 05:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What part confuses you?

The part where the UNC justice system provides for those who have been falsely accused or unfairly persecuted?

Or that a student has dared to actually avail themselves of that provision?

Because you can't have it both ways, you know.

Either UNC has to accept all accusations of rape at face value, and disregard any protests from the accused. Or UNC has to allow the accused to contest the allegations and petition for redress if the accusations are not substantiated.

But you're saying "what the hell?" as if the accused should just sit down and shut up and play the part of a good little convicted and repentant rapist. What do you know about it?
How exactly did she intimidate someone?
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:11 AM   #18
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Wait, a university has its own pretend court run by students? And it pretends to deal with actual criminal accusations? And has actual authority to kick people out of university? What the ****?
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:25 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
From up thread:



So, she is claiming that the University (not very specific) directed her away from the criminal court system and into the Honor Court.

The Police should be handling criminal matters, but her complaint is that the University discouraged that course of action.
She apparently didn't initially report this to the police then, but to some other organization on campus. Why is anyone's guess. Whether on campus or off, the police were the proper people to go to.

She is still free to file a police report, but it will be much less effective after so much time has passed.

I should clarify by stating that I can find no mention of her filing a police report. Such a report could be viewed by the media to verify at least part of her story about the incident. We would know that she did indeed report a rape to the authorities and what she reported. We would know what action the police took at the time, as well. We would also likely have records of communications about the incident with the university.

Campus police are also required to file campus crime reports, assuming this happened on campus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clery_Act

Right now, all I have is one side of a story, and it's not really enough to go on.
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:28 AM   #20
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UNC student faces honor code court for talking about rape

These University "police" and "courts" are a complete joke. The "courts" need to be abolished by actual law; and it should be made clear that campus police exist only as emergency first responders, and that ALL actual law enforcement matters should be handled by the real, local city police.
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:29 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Lord Running Clam View Post
I'm a victim advocate for the local DA's office in a town with three major colleges. The reason for these dis-honor courts is that the schools then do not have to report a sexual assault to the UCR. The schools actively discourage police or DA intervention. Sometimes victims don't know their rights or the law and can be easily misled (or intimidated) by those with self-serving interests. Especially those in authority. The referals we get from these colleges is often from parents who become frustrated with these proceedings and begin to feel that "something isn't right". I've read notes from these type of hearings and they're terribly damaging to victims of sexual assault.
And that's what also Dean Manning of UNC claims.

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/18/form...assault_cases/:
Quote:
According to a complaint filed to the U.S. Department of Education, the University of North Carolina pressured former Assistant Dean of Students Melinda Manning to underreport sexual assault cases.

Manning, three students and one former student filed the complaint earlier this week, alleging that the University violated the Clery Act, Title IX of the Education Amendments of 1972, and Title VI and Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, among other federal laws.
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:49 AM   #22
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If an adult female doesn't know to report a rape to the police...

Well, I'm not sure where to go from there...

How would the university cover anything up if it's reported to the police?
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:53 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lord Running Clam View Post
I'm a victim advocate for the local DA's office in a town with three major colleges. The reason for these dis-honor courts is that the schools then do not have to report a sexual assault to the UCR. The schools actively discourage police or DA intervention. Sometimes victims don't know their rights or the law and can be easily misled (or intimidated) by those with self-serving interests. Especially those in authority. The referals we get from these colleges is often from parents who become frustrated with these proceedings and begin to feel that "something isn't right". I've read notes from these type of hearings and they're terribly damaging to victims of sexual assault.
Exactly.
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:53 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
These University "police" and "courts" are a complete joke. The "courts" need to be abolished by actual law; and it should be made clear that campus police exist only as emergency first responders, and that ALL actual law enforcement matters should be handled by the real, local city police.
I could be wrong, and I hope Bikewer comes into this thread, but I believe campus police (at least on a large campus like UNC) are real police.
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Old 27th February 2013, 07:54 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
These University "police" and "courts" are a complete joke. The "courts" need to be abolished by actual law; and it should be made clear that campus police exist only as emergency first responders, and that ALL actual law enforcement matters should be handled by the real, local city police.
The campus police are real police, exactly the same as any other police dept.

In NC, you can have your own real police force.

NC has a "company police" law. Corporations, hospitals, and state institutions can create their own real police force with jurisdiction on company property.

http://www.ncleg.net/gascripts/statu...?Chapter=0074E
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:04 AM   #26
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the UNC system and others like it

KC Johnson, a history professor in NYC and blogger on the Duke lacrosse case, discussed the UNC system here: "Even before these mandated changes, the system that previously existed at UNC already made a mockery of due process rights for the accused. Unless the accuser simultaneously filed a criminal complaint, the accused student couldn’t be represented by counsel in the hearing." (italics mine)

More from Professor Johnson can be found here: "Since the Student Honor Court retains jurisdiction over all other disciplinary issues, the new UNC policy creates a two-tier system of justice. All other offenses under the honor code require guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; an allegation of sexual assault--even though a far more serious offense than virtually anything else that the honor code addresses--requires only 50.1% proof of guilt, and in a system where the accused student still won't have the right to a lawyer." (italics mine)
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:07 AM   #27
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the pretend court has very real consequences

Originally Posted by Cuddles View Post
Wait, a university has its own pretend court run by students? And it pretends to deal with actual criminal accusations? And has actual authority to kick people out of university? What the ****?
IANAL, but I think that it is possible to approach the honor court and regular law enforcement independently. See the links in my post above this one.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:08 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
I could be wrong, and I hope Bikewer comes into this thread, but I believe campus police (at least on a large campus like UNC) are real police.
On paper, that's true. In practice, they're part of the university bureaucracy and have the same pressures that other bureaucrats do. You may recall the police department at Penn State doing exactly **** all to deal with a child rapist on campus.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:08 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
She apparently didn't initially report this to the police then, but to some other organization on campus.
She mentions the university. She is not specific and since there is a lawsuit claiming violations of the Clery Act it may be that she reported to the police. I sincerely hope not, though. But frankly, even if she went to the dorm manager or whoever was in charge of the facility where the rape occurred why didn't they report to the police? Why shunt a serious criminal accusation into a student honor court? The victim isn't the only party with a responsibility here.

But, I think your final sentence is where I agree most with you:

Quote:
Right now, all I have is one side of a story, and it's not really enough to go on.
Agreed.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:10 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
KC Johnson, a history professor in NYC and blogger on the Duke lacrosse case, discussed the UNC system here: "Even before these mandated changes, the system that previously existed at UNC already made a mockery of due process rights for the accused. Unless the accuser simultaneously filed a criminal complaint, the accused student couldn’t be represented by counsel in the hearing."

More from Professor Johnson can be found here: "Since the Student Honor Court retains jurisdiction over all other disciplinary issues, the new UNC policy creates a two-tier system of justice. All other offenses under the honor code require guilt beyond a reasonable doubt; an allegation of sexual assault--even though a far more serious offense than virtually anything else that the honor code addresses--requires only 50.1% proof of guilt, and in a system where the accused student still won't have the right to a lawyer."
So the system is equally bad for the accused and the accuser. Well that's a relief.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:20 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
What part confuses you?
What confuses me is why this was handled by the UNC in some "honor court" instead of by police and prosecutors.

This was an alleged rape, not an accusation of cheating on an exam or something.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:29 AM   #32
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not either or

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
What confuses me is why this was handled by the UNC in some "honor court" instead of by police and prosecutors.

This was an alleged rape, not an accusation of cheating on an exam or something.
IIUC the honor court (which is no longer a student-run honor court) acts independently from regular law enforcement, and it is possible to bring an accusation to both or to one or the other. The usual qualifications apply.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:31 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by halides1 View Post
IIUC the honor court (which is no longer a student-run honor court) acts independently from regular law enforcement, and it is possible to bring an accusation to both or to one or the other. The usual qualifications apply.
They have no business whatsoever hearing criminal cases. They should have immediately reported the incident to real police and prosecutors, not some "honor court" made up of frat boys and such.

Last edited by WildCat; 27th February 2013 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:33 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
They have no business whatsoever hearing criminal cases. They should have iommediatelt reported the incident to real police and prosecutors, not some "honor court" made up of frat boys and such.
Technically, if the victim didn't report it to law enforcement, it's not a criminal case. Which is the problem here. All we have is accusations, apparently. That's why I keep saying there's more to this story than is being reported.
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:37 AM   #35
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When students get sick, do they go to the university's honor doctors?
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Old 27th February 2013, 08:40 AM   #36
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the system changed last April

Originally Posted by WildCat View Post
They have no business whatsoever hearing criminal cases. They should have immediately reported the incident to real police and prosecutors, not some "honor court" made up of frat boys and such.
From the first link I provided, "And the claims would no longer be heard by the Student Honor Court but by specially trained evaluators." Apparently Gambill, a UNC student, was part of the previous system. link here.
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Old 27th February 2013, 09:00 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by The Central Scrutinizer View Post
Technically, if the victim didn't report it to law enforcement, it's not a criminal case. Which is the problem here. All we have is accusations, apparently. That's why I keep saying there's more to this story than is being reported.
I'm sorry, but the problem is that there are people directed to an honor court at all for actual criminal matters. It doesn't matter that they could still go to real courts, the place they are directed to does harm even if they actually file with real courts.

If I go to the school nurse and sends me to a homeopath it doesn't matter that I could still go to a real doctor.

Or say if I saw something horrible like, I don't know, a man doing something of sexual nature with a boy in the showers and I was directed to go tell an administrator. That I could have gone to the police doesn't alleviate the misdirection and culture of suppression.

That the honor court even ever tried to take on real crimes is bad enough, that people were directed to it is worse. That is regardless of other redress that might be available.

EDIT: Yes it would be worst still if they were prevented from going to other redress, but that that is worse doesn't make the other acceptable.
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Last edited by tyr_13; 27th February 2013 at 09:01 AM.
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Old 27th February 2013, 09:10 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
She mentions the university. She is not specific and since there is a lawsuit claiming violations of the Clery Act it may be that she reported to the police. I sincerely hope not, though. But frankly, even if she went to the dorm manager or whoever was in charge of the facility where the rape occurred why didn't they report to the police? Why shunt a serious criminal accusation into a student honor court? The victim isn't the only party with a responsibility here.

But, I think your final sentence is where I agree most with you:



Agreed.
We don't know exactly what she reported, though. Perhaps in her report she was vague about exactly what occurred? Perhaps she was not sure it was a sexual assault at the time? Perhaps she went seeking advice about the incident and not to report a rape?

If we had a police report, we would at least know what she told the police in a sworn and signed affidavit.

Is it possible to get a look at the federal case filing?
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Old 27th February 2013, 09:16 AM   #39
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Okay, she seems to be claiming that her boyfriend at the time, sexually abused her over a long period of time.

http://www.dailytarheel.com/article/...sexual-assault
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Old 27th February 2013, 09:18 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
We don't know
I'd leave it at that for now.

Quote:
exactly what she reported, though. Perhaps in her report she was vague about exactly what occurred? Perhaps she was not sure it was a sexual assault at the time? Perhaps she went seeking advice about the incident and not to report a rape?
Are any of those consistent with directing her to an honor court?

Quote:
If we had a police report, we would at least know what she told the police in a sworn and signed affidavit.
Instead we have an honor court. Another reason honor courts should not be involved in serious criminal matters. At all. Complete deferral to the criminal court system would have avoided problems for everyone except the university reporting on crime statistics.

Quote:
Is it possible to get a look at the federal case filing?
Should be on pacer at some point unless the court has decided to make it sealed. Pacer is not free, but is publicly available, IIRC.
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