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Old 25th April 2018, 07:00 AM   #241
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyone disagree?
"Let's stop the debate while I poll everyone for an explicit answer and await the results" is one of your stall tactics. While you're waiting for everyone to weigh in on today's latest distraction, please do me the courtesy of providing a comprehensive set of feedback on the information you asked for regarding your disrespectful tactics -- information you asked for and was delivered promptly.

Is this sort of stalling effective debate?
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Old 25th April 2018, 07:11 AM   #242
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- Right now, this is what I'm looking at.
- Jay's list.
- Jay's responses to my responses to his list.
- Kialo.com from Loss Leader.
- SOdhner's challenge.
- Exchange with Dave Rogers.
- Monza's request. "How many 'going 60 MPH' are there?"
- Filippo's accusation.
- Etc.
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Old 25th April 2018, 07:14 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So debate with caveman then, and ignore everyone else.
I offered (I think 2 thread iterations ago or something) to debate him on the condition that he could prove a single statement: P(E|I) > P(E|~I). He managed to produce "P(E|I) > P(E|~I) because P(E|I) > P(E|~I)". I notified him of the circularity, and he failed to improve upon his proof. And that was the end of my second time arguing vis-a-vis Jabba, not lasting much longer than the first time.

ETA: to be fair to Jabba, he openly admitted to the circularity after it was pointed out, and that he could not improve upon it.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 25th April 2018 at 07:17 AM.
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Old 25th April 2018, 07:20 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyone disagree?
What part of effective debate is this?
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Old 25th April 2018, 07:21 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyone disagree?
Wait, what, does this mean you're actually going to start responding to someone constructively and honestly?

God DAMN that'll be a fresh bit of novelty right there. I'm on board.
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Old 25th April 2018, 07:23 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- My proposed model of effective debate would have only one spokesperson per side (but each spokesperson could theoretically recruit all the help needed). They would present opening arguments, then slowly develop a 'tree' of sub-issues, sub-sub-issues, etc.
"Your honour, my client stands accused that he did murder Mr. Smith in London between noon and 1pm on the 21st of August. Here is video evidence from a well authenticated live TV broadcast showing that my client was in Kuala Lumpur at 12:30pm on that date, proving that he cannot have committed the murder."

"Counsel for the prosecution, what do you have to say about this evidence?"

"Your honour, putting aside this evidence for the moment, I would like to prove that, had the murder been committed with a steak knife between 10 and 15cm in length, the defendant would have been in a position to purchase such a knife on several occasions."

"Mr. Jabba, you are aware, are you not, that the murder was committed with a blunt instrument?"

"Your honour, I would like to prove it is possible that similar injuries could be inflicted with the handle of a steak knife, provided the murderer gripped it tightly by the blade."

"Your honour, I would like to draw the court's attention to the absence of any wounds on my client's hands at the time of his arrest."

"Your honour, the prosecution would like a recess to commission exhaustive research into healing rates to determine whether any such woulds could have healed up before the defendant's arrest..."

Dave
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Old 25th April 2018, 07:32 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- So now, what do I do with my two or three hours today?!
Something nice for your family
Read a book
Take a walk
Volunteer somewhere
Learn a new dish in the kitchen
etc.
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Old 25th April 2018, 07:50 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
I offered (I think 2 thread iterations ago or something) to debate him on the condition that he could prove a single statement: P(E|I) > P(E|~I). He managed to produce "P(E|I) > P(E|~I) because P(E|I) > P(E|~I)". I notified him of the circularity, and he failed to improve upon his proof. And that was the end of my second time arguing vis-a-vis Jabba, not lasting much longer than the first time.

ETA: to be fair to Jabba, he openly admitted to the circularity after it was pointed out, and that he could not improve upon it.
- My memory of that debate between us is that I answered multiple times in regard to P(E|I) > P(E|~I) and you didn't respond to the last two. If you can point me to the area you're referring to, I will happily go back and review what happened. I'm sure that you can find the area much faster than I can -- and, I'm already having a lot of trouble deciding which existing front to defend first.
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Old 25th April 2018, 08:11 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Right now, this is what I'm looking at.
- Jay's list.
"Looking at" does not mean actually "doing anything about." So far you've flagrantly ignored my request that you give us an outline of your planned responses and then stalled to the point of complete inertia.

Since you aren't doing anything about it, it's not actually a burden.

Quote:
- Monza's request. "How many 'going 60 MPH' are there?"
In several months of nearly everyone asking you to address that question and its implications for your argument, you never once acknowledged that it was asked, much less provided an answer. "Looking at" in this case can't likely mean anything more than the ongoing indifference you previously displayed. Again -- not a burden since you don't actually ever do anything.

Today's Debate Theater character is Poor Poor Jabba, who's allegedly been so saddled with work by his critics that he's begging for your mercy and sympathy. Geez, Jabba, you continue to act as if you think all this manipulation is actually working.
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Old 25th April 2018, 08:16 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyone disagree?
I do. I just really can't be bothered.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- My memory of that debate between us is that I answered multiple times in regard to P(E|I) > P(E|~I) and you didn't respond to the last two.
Because neither improved upon your proof that "P(E|I) > P(E|~I) because P(E|I) > P(E|~I)".

Quote:
If you can point me to the area you're referring to, I will happily go back and review what happened. I'm sure that you can find the area much faster than I can -- and, I'm already having a lot of trouble deciding which existing front to defend first.
Do the other ones, I'm not really interested anyway, I already know you can't back up your case. They seem happy to continuously oblige you though.
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Last edited by caveman1917; 25th April 2018 at 08:17 AM.
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Old 25th April 2018, 08:21 AM   #251
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So debate with Loss Leader, then, and ignore everyone else.

It's not like there's actually a shortage of people here who are willing to discuss things with you.

But I admit that I may have been wrong about caveman's friendliness to your cause.
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Old 25th April 2018, 08:22 AM   #252
JayUtah
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I'm sure that you can find the area much faster than I can...
Yet another ability that comes and goes depending on whether it benefits you or hurts you. When it comes to you remembering all the various times you've had your head handed to you, you play dumb and ask people to go find those references for you. You plan on them not wanting to or being able to, so you figure that if you can just stall for a few days you can shift blame to your critics for not jumping through the hoops -- hoops you caused by your delays.

But when you think you have a "gotcha!" moment, all of a sudden your ability to find previous relevant posts snaps into sharp acuity. And you suddenly find the time to edit them all together in one of your infamous walls-of-anthology posts.

Never anything from you but excuses, excuses. Is debate effective when one party cannot be held accountable for failing to engage?

Quote:
...and, I'm already having a lot of trouble deciding which existing front to defend first.
No, you're not having any trouble at all because you aren't dealing with any of it. And you padded your oh-so-burdensome to-do list with stuff you've never cared about anyway. Is debate effective when one party can simply complain about the burden of defending his points and thereby be let off?

Oh, Poor Poor Jabba! Won't anyone take pity on him and excuse him from having to participate in the debates he starts?

Last edited by JayUtah; 25th April 2018 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 25th April 2018, 08:51 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
So debate with Loss Leader, then, and ignore everyone else.

It's not like there's actually a shortage of people here who are willing to discuss things with you.

But I admit that I may have been wrong about caveman's friendliness to your cause.
LL,
- Would you accept that role again?
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Old 25th April 2018, 08:57 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Great! I'm looking forward to seeing you model effective debate for us.

To everyone but Jabba - don't bother debating me, I won't be responding to anyone but Jabba on this one. This thread will simultaneously be a test of my theory (which I will state below) and a test of Jabba's method of Effective Debate. So far he has made a case that there is a need for us to debate things differently, to be more open to new ideas and information, to avoid name-calling, etc. and he deserves an opportunity to demonstrate this for us.

To mods - Should this be a separate thread? I can't decide. We can move it if needed.

To Jabba - Here's my claim: I believe I can prove that the universe is actually centered on me - I know this sounds silly, I'm aware that this isn't something that you (or anyone here) would be inclined to take seriously, but I mean to conclusively prove it. It is my argument that everything "revolves" around me (revolves being a slightly imprecise term, but we can get into that as needed). I can prove this using math, physics, and basic logic. That being said, I'm open to the idea that this is incorrect and will gladly concede if you can show the flaws in my arguments. If you, like most people, think that this argument is absurd that shouldn't discourage you - in fact it should make you all the more eager to engage with me since your debate tactics should be easy to employ against something that is unfounded.

Jabba, I'm really looking forward to this and I want to genuinely thank you for agreeing to work with me on it.
Sodhner,
- I'm working on an opening response...
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"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
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Old 25th April 2018, 08:57 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
LL,
- Would you accept that role again?
Still terrified of giving JayUtah a straight answer I see.
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Old 25th April 2018, 09:00 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
But I admit that I may have been wrong about caveman's friendliness to your cause.
What cause?
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"Let us therefore trust the eternal Spirit which destroys and annihilates only because it is the unfathomable and eternal source of all life. The passion for destruction is a creative passion, too!" - Mikhail Bakunin
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Old 25th April 2018, 09:00 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Sodhner,
- I'm working on an opening response...
It's the 7th page of the 2nd spin off thread of you trying to explain why you haven't made a single point in the last years... and you're working on an opening response.
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Old 25th April 2018, 09:16 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
It's the 7th page of the 2nd spin off thread of you trying to explain why you haven't made a single point in the last years... and you're working on an opening response.
As I wrote last night, Jabba's version of "effective debate" is to effectively ensure it never occurs when its aim is to test his claims. He seems to think no one sees blatant obstructionism for what it is, which is ironically one of the ways he disrespects and often infuriates anyone who tries to debate him. He treats his interlocutors as if his manipulations actually work unnoticeably.
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Old 25th April 2018, 09:23 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Would you accept that role again?
Jabba, you've expressly chosen a forum where anyone can engage you. Your fervent desire to limit your critics to only one person, and thereby limit the arguments that could otherwise reasonably be made against you, simply doesn't fit this venue. If you want to have a one-on-one debate with someone, find a place where that is the expected procedure. Otherwise stop suggesting that the other members of this forum somehow have to jump through additional hoops to enjoy the privilege of your attention.
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Old 25th April 2018, 09:23 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
LL,
- Would you accept that role again?
He's already offered to discuss with you. He's even enumerated a very short list of issues to discuss. The only thing getting in the way of effective debate with Loss Leader is you.

What part of effective debate is this?
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Old 25th April 2018, 11:24 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
....
- One section of the site would provide my suggestions as to how to judge the arguments, as well as suggestions from one of you guys as to how to judge the arguments -- if I can get you guys interested....
This can't get any funnier. You're actually planning to educate us on HOW to judge the validity of your arguments. You CAN'T be for real.

I am calling it....POE!
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Old 25th April 2018, 01:20 PM   #262
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Not holding my breath
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Old 25th April 2018, 01:40 PM   #263
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
This can't get any funnier. You're actually planning to educate us on HOW to judge the validity of your arguments. You CAN'T be for real.

I am calling it....POE!
When a dishonest man can't win honestly, he'll try to rig the game.
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Old 25th April 2018, 02:03 PM   #264
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
What I want is for you to show the very basic level of respect that you claim is missing from debate. I want you to research issues before claiming to speak with authority. I want you to check out Kialo.Com to see how you like their method of debate.

If you don't want these things, I want to know what about them you disagree with. Then, explain how your ideas about debate are upheld by refusing these requests.
LL,

- To a large extent, Kialo.com seems to be doing exactly what I'm advocating. For instance,

Kialo enables you to visualize discussions as an interactive tree of pro and con arguments. At the top is the thesis, which is supported or weakened by pro and con arguments underneath. Each one of these arguments can branch into subsequent arguments that support or attack them in turn.
- And, the image showing the "mapping" is exactly what I would have shown if I knew how to do it.
- I logged in but accidentally logged in as Jsbba (even though they warn newbies to be careful about entering their user names as the first entry cannot be changed...) Oh well.
- I don't fully understand their system -- but so far, so good.
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"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:07 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
LL,

- To a large extent, Kialo.com seems to be doing exactly what I'm advocating. For instance,

Kialo enables you to visualize discussions as an interactive tree of pro and con arguments. At the top is the thesis, which is supported or weakened by pro and con arguments underneath. Each one of these arguments can branch into subsequent arguments that support or attack them in turn.
- And, the image showing the "mapping" is exactly what I would have shown if I knew how to do it.
- I logged in but accidentally logged in as Jsbba (even though they warn newbies to be careful about entering their user names as the first entry cannot be changed...) Oh well.
- I don't fully understand their system -- but so far, so good.
Wow. That site sounds so much better. Probably the judges will be unbiased as well! Let us know how it all works out.
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:08 PM   #266
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
When a dishonest man can't win honestly, he'll try to rig the game.
It would seem so. Sadly
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Old 25th April 2018, 03:08 PM   #267
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Screw it

*Raises glass* Have at it Jabba. Hopefully you find the kind of debate there you want.
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:01 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by SOdhner View Post
Great! I'm looking forward to seeing you model effective debate for us.

To everyone but Jabba - don't bother debating me, I won't be responding to anyone but Jabba on this one. This thread will simultaneously be a test of my theory (which I will state below) and a test of Jabba's method of Effective Debate. So far he has made a case that there is a need for us to debate things differently, to be more open to new ideas and information, to avoid name-calling, etc. and he deserves an opportunity to demonstrate this for us.

To mods - Should this be a separate thread? I can't decide. We can move it if needed.

To Jabba - Here's my claim: I believe I can prove that the universe is actually centered on me - I know this sounds silly, I'm aware that this isn't something that you (or anyone here) would be inclined to take seriously, but I mean to conclusively prove it. It is my argument that everything "revolves" around me (revolves being a slightly imprecise term, but we can get into that as needed). I can prove this using math, physics, and basic logic. That being said, I'm open to the idea that this is incorrect and will gladly concede if you can show the flaws in my arguments. If you, like most people, think that this argument is absurd that shouldn't discourage you - in fact it should make you all the more eager to engage with me since your debate tactics should be easy to employ against something that is unfounded.

Jabba, I'm really looking forward to this and I want to genuinely thank you for agreeing to work with me on it.
SOdhner,
- Does the above include your opening statement. or would you like to say more?
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"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
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Old 25th April 2018, 05:25 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
LL,

- To a large extent, Kialo.com seems to be doing exactly what I'm advocating. For instance,

Kialo enables you to visualize discussions as an interactive tree of pro and con arguments. At the top is the thesis, which is supported or weakened by pro and con arguments underneath. Each one of these arguments can branch into subsequent arguments that support or attack them in turn.
- And, the image showing the "mapping" is exactly what I would have shown if I knew how to do it.
- I logged in but accidentally logged in as Jsbba (even though they warn newbies to be careful about entering their user names as the first entry cannot be changed...) Oh well.
- I don't fully understand their system -- but so far, so good.
If you can't even spell your own name, even when given clear instructions to do so, you may not be ready to tackle the challenge of figuring out the hard problem of effective debate.

I mean, it's not really such a hard problem, but for someone who can't spell their own name...
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Old 25th April 2018, 08:02 PM   #270
theprestige
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
LL,

- To a large extent, Kialo.com seems to be doing exactly what I'm advocating. For instance,

Kialo enables you to visualize discussions as an interactive tree of pro and con arguments. At the top is the thesis, which is supported or weakened by pro and con arguments underneath. Each one of these arguments can branch into subsequent arguments that support or attack them in turn.
- And, the image showing the "mapping" is exactly what I would have shown if I knew how to do it.
- I logged in but accidentally logged in as Jsbba (even though they warn newbies to be careful about entering their user names as the first entry cannot be changed...) Oh well.
- I don't fully understand their system -- but so far, so good.
So debate with Kialo.com, and ignore everyone else.

What problem are you trying to solve, Jabba?

What part of effective debate is this?
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Old 26th April 2018, 04:58 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
SOdhner,
- Does the above include your opening statement. or would you like to say more?
Sounds like you are planning to take Sodhner's statement and post it at Kialo.

I would check with him first to make sure he is ok with you forcing him into some sort of weird proxy debate on that site.
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Old 26th April 2018, 05:20 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Sounds like you are planning to take Sodhner's statement and post it at Kialo.



I would check with him first to make sure he is ok with you forcing him into some sort of weird proxy debate on that site.


Its been fairly obvious for quite some time that his real agenda is to quote mine here to present himself as authoritative or intelligent elsewhere. Anything from this site he quotes elsewhere will be carefully edited and truncated to make him look like a master of rhetorical debate and us look like angry flailing malcontents. Now we know one of the venues he plans to babble and burble in next.
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Old 26th April 2018, 05:25 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
If you can't even spell your own name, even when given clear instructions to do so, you may not be ready to tackle the challenge of figuring out the hard problem of effective debate.

I mean, it's not really such a hard problem, but for someone who can't spell their own name...


Hes just trying to stick with a username he finds familiar while making it harder for the next group to find out what hes done in the past. Its not unlike how I have a different username for the porn groups on Reddit I participate in than the one I use for general discussion. Its probably why he picked a Star Wars character as his username across multiple web sites to begin with.
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Old 26th April 2018, 05:25 AM   #274
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Jabba is looking to win the debate, but I don't know if his tactics are conscious or not
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Old 26th April 2018, 05:35 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Jabba is looking to win the debate, but I don't know if his tactics are conscious or not


I think hes trying to reclaim the veneer of competence and authority he had on some of the Shroud is real! Rah! Rah! Rah! Sites where he was respected in the past. Its a bit like a one hit wonder musical artist coming out with a song thats little more than a rehash of their one hit. He did the Twist on the Shroud sites. Now hes desperately pimping the Peppermint Twist.
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Old 26th April 2018, 06:00 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
Sounds like you are planning to take Sodhner's statement and post it at Kialo.

I would check with him first to make sure he is ok with you forcing him into some sort of weird proxy debate on that site.
- No. I'd like to have SOdhner's debate right here.

- Again, I have a lot to learn about Kialo -- and also I overstated the similarity of their goal to mine. One key difference is the idea of one expert opponent per side. My basic idea is to develop at least one nationally recognized website that would carry all the controversial issues of the day and debated by one expert per side.
- From there, we could develop a website for each general area of controversy -- say political, social, scientific, religious, etc.
- From there we (humans) could develop global websites for the same subject areas.
- From there, we could take the money out of politics by moving the campaigns to the Internet.

- I assume that these ideas sound simply like foolish flights of fancy -- but, considering the technological development we're currently experiencing, what will our planet look like in ten years? What are the possibilities descending upon us (good and/or bad)?

- Anyway, so far, it seems to me like Kialo is going in the right direction -- but that, we should see if there is any way to help develop the idea right here. We humans desperately need a peaceful way to negotiate with those with whom we disagree. We need to develop such a thing before we blow ourselves up. The Internet may provide that opportunity.
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Old 26th April 2018, 06:02 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
and also I overstated the similarity of their goal to mine.
Shocker.

Quote:
One key difference is the idea of one expert opponent per side.
Now we just need to find an expert in immortality.
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Old 26th April 2018, 06:16 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
...
- I assume that these ideas sound simply like foolish flights of fancy -- but, considering the technological development we're currently experiencing, what will our planet look like in ten years? What are the possibilities descending upon us (good and/or bad)?
.......
Ya! And there's that whole quantum thing too, where nothing is as it seeeeeems
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Old 26th April 2018, 06:18 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Now we just need to find an expert in immortality.
Not that hard. Anyone with over 200 years' experience of it should do.

Dave
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Old 26th April 2018, 06:21 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Not that hard. Anyone with over 200 years' experience of it should do.

Dave
And they have to practice effective debate.
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