The Okiku Doll, need help debunking

Vonricter

New Blood
V
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
2
I recently read a story about the Okiku doll which resides in Mannenji temple in Iwamizawa Japan.

the story says that in the 1930s a man bought a very ornate doll for his younger sister, who eventually died to spanish flu. After being drafted into WWII the man could no longer look after the doll and gave it to the temple. Shortly after the death of the girl the dolls hair began to grow, it grew from a short Bob style haircut to passed the dolls shoulders and has been growing ever since (roughly around 1938)

The doll still resides in the temple to this day and the monks regularly cut the dolls supposedly still growing hair.

at one point a researcher in Japan did a forensic test that showed the hair was that of a 10 year old female, this in and of itself is not important because real human hair was often used to making dolls of this calibur but this shows that the phenomena has been investigated and i still cannot find anything debunking the growth of the dolls hair

it would be extremely easy to examine the doll over a period of time, someone out there was to have taken the time to prove that the hair is actually growing or not.

does anyone know anything about this at all?
 
It's up to the monks to support their claim with evidence. If they haven't, then the claim is already debunked.

Or, just answer this question: What would the monks have to do to convince you this was real?
 
Last edited:
I dont know if they have or not, i haven't found any articles or interviews with anyone from the monastery. Thats what i've been looking for
 
Vonricter said:
I dont know if they have or not, i haven't found any articles or interviews with anyone from the monastery. Thats what i've been looking for
Click to expand...

It doesn't look like there's anything online about it, except for apocrypha, urban legends, and ghost stories.

I think you can safely conclude that this story is already debunked.

Other than that, you'll probably have to go to primary sources, which are likely to be in Japanese. I doubt there's any scholarly research in English about such an obvious tall tale.

Anyway, what would the monks have to do to convince you that the claim is true?

Also, why is it important?
 
Apart from the obvious magical elements, the bit that bothers me about the story is someone in the 1930's dying of Spanish flu. It's my understanding that it had disappeared by then.
 
Pope130 said:
Apart from the obvious magical elements, the bit that bothers me about the story is someone in the 1930's dying of Spanish flu. It's my understanding that it had disappeared by then.
Click to expand...

It's never really totally disappeared - there have been small pockets of outbreaks of H1N1 around the world both before and since the 1918 pandemic.
 
So straight dope forums looked at this. And found an article in japanese that looks at earlier incarnations of the story


The back story to the doll was invented out of whole cloth. It first appeared in a 1962 article in a women's magazine, although the story offered in that article differs from the current version in terms of:

the name of the dead girl
the year the doll was given to the temple
who gave the doll to the temple and what their relationship was to the girl
how the growing hair was discovered

The current version of the story first appears in a 1968 article... written by the same author as the 1962 article. Oops.

The analysis gives a couple of potential explanations for why a doll's hair might change length, but nothing that would change it significantly enough to match the claims made by the urban legend.

But more importantly, the analysis states that the claim is just that the doll's hair grew, not that it has been continuously growing ever since the girl's death. That claim wasn't made in either of the original articles, or in a version of the myth from a collection of Japanese urban legends cited on the page. It must have been tacked on by someone at some point.

Also, dolls in prewar Japan were made with real human hair. So there's nothing particularly noteworthy about that.

So, my vote is for no clockwork, no anything.
Click to expand...
 
Why do the monks cut the hair? Surely it would be more impressive to display the doll with ever longer hair. So maybe this is a clue...
 
Lady Grinning Soul said:
Why do the monks cut the hair? Surely it would be more impressive to display the doll with ever longer hair. So maybe this is a clue...
Click to expand...
This (as well as most everything else said here).

Giving the impression of cutting hair when not actually doing so is quite simple. Letting a doll's hair grow and remain long for all to see is another thing. Of course, even that could be faked without much difficulty. Who has control of the doll when the public isn't around?


ETA: A formal debunking would require access that you are unlikely to obtain, but such a formal debunking isn't necessary. Instead, I would rely on variations of the following:

There is a doll made with human hair the same way many dolls were made in Japan. The public are allowed to view it but not to examine it. The sum total of the evidence that the hair actually grows is the testimony of those with both a financial and spiritual interest in the story. And based on this you want me to believe something supernatural is happening? Thank you, but no.
 
Last edited:
How would a hair sample test tell you how old the owner of said hair was? If you could get root DNA you could tell sex, but not age.
 
As I understand it, there are some changes in hair that can indicate a general age, but nothing specific. IF you look at http://www.swgmat.org/Forensic%20Human%20Hair%20Examination%20Guidelines.pdf, under section 6, they mention that a hair can be classified as "characteristic of a particular growth phase". An obvious example is thin, brittle gray hair (mos tlikely from an elderly person).

Although, also apparent if you read that document, they don't use anything nearly as affirmative as the wording here. The best you can get from the hair sample (assuming no DNA testing) is "consitent with" or "similar to".
 
Belz... said:
This is a skeptics site, right ?
Click to expand...

So? That alone doesn't make this story, or its definitive debunking, particularly important or necessary.

I meant, does the OP have a reason why this particular ghost story should merit any more of a response than "tall tale, unsupported, I'm skeptical, full stop" ?
 
Just a cheap tourist attraction. Think about all the statues that pee oil, drink milk and bring in tourists to see these amazing feats. The fact that the monks don't want it examined indicates that they are afraid of something being found out :rolleyes: and their publicity stunt being dashed to a million pieces
 
Given that there isn't even a particular temple listed in the story I would file this one under urban legends.

Legends of haunted objects are extremely common in Japan. In fact I think they may be even more common than tales of hunted locations. This is surprising given the number of really impressive mass suicide events/locations they have. I suppose the whole haunted object thing is a natural extension of the animist nature of Shinto belief.

The most common form of haunted objects in Japanese ghost stories aren't even haunted by human ghosts. They are the angry spirits of objects that have been poorly used in some way. Lost combs and broken mirrors that seek out victims to vent their rage and frustration on. Abandoned kimonos that suck the life out of any who try to wear them. Typical fireside ghost stories with a Japanese twist.
 
theprestige said:
Sure.

I'm saying, nonsense is the default state for stories like this. It's debunked to start with. Is there anything more that needs to be done?
Click to expand...

Well, if you only intend to discuss these with skeptics, then nothing.

However, most people posting these (besides the trolls, assuming an honest request here) aren't trying to convince people who are well-versed in logic, skepticism, and scientific thought. So it's not unsual to look for arguments that can help show the problems with an explanation. IN other words, a lot of times you need evidence and examples not necessarily for the partiuclar case, but to show them why the "rules" of logic and science are what they are ("see how easy it was to be fooled by accepting this story at face value? That's why we wait for positive evidence...").

Also, some people like discussing possibilities, and I think exercising our imaginations to think up plausible alternatives can help when we look at a real incident ourselves.

Finally, and I don't mean this snarkily but seriously, this is a community with diverse interests and views. You aren't required to post in every thread, or read every thread. If it doesn't interest you, great. I can even understand a simple "there's nothing to debunk" post before leaving. But why multiple posts in a thread about how it's nonsense and a waste of time?
 
Vonricter said:
I recently read a story about the Okiku doll which resides in Mannenji temple in Iwamizawa Japan.

the story says that in the 1930s a man bought a very ornate doll for his younger sister, who eventually died to spanish flu. After being drafted into WWII the man could no longer look after the doll
Click to expand...

Right at the beginning the story doesn't make sense. A doll doesn't need "looking after". He could have just stored it somewhere. This leads me to suspect that someone, maybe the monks at the temple, invented the whole story.
 
Ok, sorry, I missed the temple being mentioned in the beginning. So it does have an actual temple and doll to lend a bit of reality to the tall tale. A good ghost story is always made better with some facts to pad it out.

Again I will point out that this is a very common sort of ghost story in Japan. Also the idea of leaving an object in the care of a temple is totally normal in Japanese culture. It may seem weird to outsiders but its perfectly normal amongst the more traditional Japanese.
 
Weak Kitten said:
Legends of haunted objects are extremely common in Japan...The most common form of haunted objects in Japanese ghost stories aren't even haunted by human ghosts. They are the angry spirits of objects that have been poorly used in some way. Lost combs and broken mirrors that seek out victims to vent their rage and frustration on. Abandoned kimonos that suck the life out of any who try to wear them. Typical fireside ghost stories with a Japanese twist.
Click to expand...

(my edit for brevity)

And, if I recall correctly, even toothpicks that were not disposed of properly, but stuck down into the mat, can come back to haunt you!
 
Belz... said:
Well I, for one, enjoy nonsense stories. :)
Click to expand...
Quite. I travelled here ,eventually, after starting on alt.folklore.urban on usenet.

Often the detective story tracing back the origins of an UL is even more entertaining than the "truth" of the UL.
Just as interesting is to watch an UL evolve and grow legs.

As with science, sometimes it is the journey and not the knowing that is the most enlightening.
 
Last edited:
Aren't the shrines somewhat independently run? In the sense that a smaller shrine with few patrons may disappear entirely, as opposed to having a sort of central organization to bail them out if they're not self-supporting on donations? I was under the impression that small local shrines could fall into disuse and eventually be closed if they weren't able to bring in enough donations from patrons in order to keep running. Please inform me if I'm wrong about that.

Having a special supernatural doll seems like a way to keep interest in a small shrine fresh. Visitors might then leave donations or pay for blessings/souvenirs/lunch while visiting the shrine. The shrine gets bonus points for low overhead---all it requires is a creepy little doll, a display area, and a story in order to bring in lots of visitors and revenue.

I doubt the monks are actually cutting the doll's hair. If they are, there is likely a central person in charge of making the doll's hair "grow". A lot of the crying Virgin Mary scams worked this way---a majority of the people associated with the church where the Virgin Statue was displayed were unaware that a single person was in charge of setting up and renewing the hoax. Then someone who was unaware of the hoax would "discover" the miracle, and their reaction would be genuine and honest enough that it would lend credibility to the whole thing. If the doll hair is cut at all, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the most junior monks were in charge of cutting it.

Coincidentally, after wasting a bunch of time watching the show "Ghost Hunters", it became clear to me that the show operates in a similar way. Junior employees aren't privy to the scam, so their reactions are genuine. After a bit of experience, they're kicked upstairs and let in on the scam, even taking part, while new junior employees are recruited, local ghost hunting societies are featured, and guests are brought along. I believe that's why they started Ghost Hunters International---too many employees were aware of the scam, so they developed a top-heavy organization without enough straight men or rubes. By developing a spin-off, they split the management in two and remedied the imbalance between rubes and scammers without having to let anyone go, especially not people in on the scam.
 
My sister gave my daughter a doll that will ask for food, say a carrot, and when this toy food is placed in the dolls mouth it makes these crunching sounds as if it's truly eating a carrot. Sometimes the doll will wake up at 3am demanding a drink of water, when the glass is placed between the dolls lips it makes a horrendous gulping sound. I haven't had to trim her hair yet but I did stow her at the bottom of a box of stuffed animals in the basement as I was tired of being awakened by this creature. Even now years later as my daughter is a teenager and has moved passed the doll stage I find myself in the basement performing some chore and I will here that detached voice of the doll demanding something from her stuffed animal grave. Gives me the heebie-jeebies I'm tellin' ya!
 
Last edited:
George152 said:
That would make it second 'site' then.
Click to expand...
It took me a while to get the joke, then it clicked. At least I know I'm not the only one who got my lame humor.


kirstenholme said:
er...no...It's a skeptics' site.
Click to expand...
But I'm still almost the only one.

To clear it up: In a couple of other threads recently there have been ongoing comments about believer's ubiquitous misuse of apostrophes. I was attempting a poor parody.
 
Apology said:
Aren't the shrines somewhat independently run? In the sense that a smaller shrine with few patrons may disappear entirely, as opposed to having a sort of central organization to bail them out if they're not self-supporting on donations? I was under the impression that small local shrines could fall into disuse and eventually be closed if they weren't able to bring in enough donations from patrons in order to keep running. Please inform me if I'm wrong about that.

Having a special supernatural doll seems like a way to keep interest in a small shrine fresh. Visitors might then leave donations or pay for blessings/souvenirs/lunch while visiting the shrine. The shrine gets bonus points for low overhead---all it requires is a creepy little doll, a display area, and a story in order to bring in lots of visitors and revenue.

I doubt the monks are actually cutting the doll's hair. If they are, there is likely a central person in charge of making the doll's hair "grow". A lot of the crying Virgin Mary scams worked this way---a majority of the people associated with the church where the Virgin Statue was displayed were unaware that a single person was in charge of setting up and renewing the hoax. Then someone who was unaware of the hoax would "discover" the miracle, and their reaction would be genuine and honest enough that it would lend credibility to the whole thing. If the doll hair is cut at all, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the most junior monks were in charge of cutting it.

Coincidentally, after wasting a bunch of time watching the show "Ghost Hunters", it became clear to me that the show operates in a similar way. Junior employees aren't privy to the scam, so their reactions are genuine. After a bit of experience, they're kicked upstairs and let in on the scam, even taking part, while new junior employees are recruited, local ghost hunting societies are featured, and guests are brought along. I believe that's why they started Ghost Hunters International---too many employees were aware of the scam, so they developed a top-heavy organization without enough straight men or rubes. By developing a spin-off, they split the management in two and remedied the imbalance between rubes and scammers without having to let anyone go, especially not people in on the scam.
Click to expand...
Thanks for this. I hadn't considered that only a few were in on it, but it makes sense. It happens to mirror how I have long viewed that most organized religions work, though I don't think it works that way completely. For example, I suspect that most Cardinals in the Roman Catholic Church and most Popes have long since ceased believing in anything other than institutional effectiveness (though I think that perhaps the current Pope is an exception as perhaps was Ratzinger).
 
Tiktaalik said:
(my edit for brevity)

And, if I recall correctly, even toothpicks that were not disposed of properly, but stuck down into the mat, can come back to haunt you!
Click to expand...

Wouldn't fancy being haunted by a toothpick from the Mafia - imagine getting into bed and finding millions of toothpicks on your pillow :eek: That'd be cranial acupuncture with a vengeance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom