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Tags 9/11 truth , 911 investigation , new 9/11 investigation

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Old 31st August 2013, 02:10 PM   #1
Travis
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What if we had $50 million for a new investigation?

Suppose I was an eccentric billionaire. Perhaps for my own amusement I decide to set aside fifty million dollars for the all brand new Truther led investigation into the September 11th attacks that will obviate the hundreds of prior investigations that they don't like.

So the money is there waiting to be spent. How should I spend it?

Who can I hire and not have the Truthers claim they are poisoning the investigation from within?

What evidence can I use that won't be claimed to be faked or tainted later on?

What witnesses can be sourced that won't be claimed to be misled or plants later on?

I am all for spending all that money on this I just want to be sure it will be done to the satisfaction of the Truth Movement so that there will be no need to discredit it later. So how do I do it?
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Old 31st August 2013, 02:14 PM   #2
plague311
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Suppose I was an eccentric billionaire. Perhaps for my own amusement I decide to set aside fifty million dollars for the all brand new Truther led investigation into the September 11th attacks that will obviate the hundreds of prior investigations that they don't like.

So the money is there waiting to be spent. How should I spend it?

Who can I hire and not have the Truthers claim they are poisoning the investigation from within?

What evidence can I use that won't be claimed to be faked or tainted later on?

What witnesses can be sourced that won't be claimed to be misled or plants later on?

I am all for spending all that money on this I just want to be sure it will be done to the satisfaction of the Truth Movement so that there will be no need to discredit it later. So how do I do it?
You can change that number to 50 billion, but truthers won't believe anything other than CD. There is no other option, no matter what.

If you were an eccentric billionaire, I'd tell you to skip the process and throw a big ass party.
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Old 31st August 2013, 02:15 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
So how do I do it?
You cannot do it

First problem: Step one must be "Define the Objective"

The only objective that truthers may possibly accept is "come up with the answers that we want"

So you immediately confront the first barrier - two actually which are:
1) There is no known mechanism whereby truthers will accept any of the forms of due process that our society relies on; AND
2) Truthers are not capable of agreeing among themselves so even if "1)" was possible for some it would not be acceptable to all or even a majority.

So "they" could not agree on what answers they wanted even if the investigation was directed/constrained to come up with those pre-determined answers.

Second Problem: There is no capable "Truther Leader"

So how can it be truther led? The very basics of leadership on a task include:
a) Defining the Objective of the task;
b) Planning the task processes to achieve the objective;
c) Selecting, recruiting workers, partitioning sub tasks, guiding, motivating helpers to achieve their parts of the task whilst ensuring that all the parts fit into a coherent whole;
(Remember that no truther has ever put together a coherent overall hypothesis for any of the key technical issues of 9/11 let alone the more complicated politico-socio issues.)

I'll stop there. Name a truther who can perform one of those task. Even if you can it is a long way from being able to staff the overall investigation process.

your final paragraph shows the fatal premise:
Originally Posted by Travis View Post
...I am all for spending all that money on this I just want to be sure it will be done to the satisfaction of the Truth Movement so that there will be no need to discredit it later.
How could such a process ever have "credit" so that it could be "discredited later". What part of society is expected to find it creditable but could potentially "discredit it later"?

It doesn't even work is you postulate a society of 100% truthers with none of us rational people who are (i)can think, (ii) are allowed to think AND (iii) are willing to do so?

How do you construct a society made up of people who cannot think or which has rules which bar rational thinking?

How do you change the ethos of the "truth movement" so that it can accept something at one stage and not seek to discredit it later. If you can re-educate truthers so that they behave consistently and rationally by definition they would no longer be truthers.

Last edited by ozeco41; 31st August 2013 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 31st August 2013, 02:24 PM   #4
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I hate to say this, but I can't imagine an investigation that would satisfy them unless it proved CD.

For example: they want full subpoena powers, so it has to be under the umbrella of some government agency.
All government agencies are suspect, therefore no investigation will be satisfactory.

I did a whole YouTube video on this and I interviewed several 9/11 Truth activists asking them what would satisfy them. None said that any investigation disproving CD would be satisfactory because they know it was CD. None of the ones I talked to wanted any kind of "truth and reconciliation" panel a la South Africa, they wanted grand juries, trials, and the full force of the law (including generous numbers of convictions for treason).

My attempts to work with Kevin Ryan on an independent WTC dust study failed utterly and earned me public ad hominem attacks against me and the guy I hired to do the dust study.

My more recent attempts to convince Mark Basile and all the Thermite paper signatories to work with me to create a protocol together that we could all agree on for a new WTC dust study was met with a wall of silence.

I'm feeling pretty discouraged re my years-long efforts to work together on such things.
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Last edited by chrismohr; 31st August 2013 at 02:32 PM. Reason: added sentence
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Old 31st August 2013, 02:59 PM   #5
The Platypus
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
I hate to say this, but I can't imagine an investigation that would satisfy them unless it proved CD.
Even an investigation that proved CD wouldn't be enough, because other truther cults whose dogma is other than CD, wouldn't accept it.

There are over 100 sects of the 9/11 conspiracy cult.
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:01 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post

I am all for spending all that money on this I just want to be sure it will be done to the satisfaction of the Truth Movement so that there will be no need to discredit it later. So how do I do it?
You first need to give Richard Gage half and make sure you hire only people that he will endorse. After that make sure it proves controlled demolition.

Anything short of that would be rigged. They already have the results of an independent investigation.
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:07 PM   #7
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911 truth followers, believers in the inside job nonsense can't think for themselves, and can't comprehend the many studies on 911. Another study would only expose how much ignorance 911 truth followers have.
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
I hate to say this, but I can't imagine an investigation that would satisfy them unless it proved CD....
Agreed - but there are other issues in the politico-social arena and there may be "truthers" who are only interested in MIHOP-LIHOP-LIHOOI

Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
...For example: they want full subpoena powers, so it has to be under the umbrella of some government agency.
All government agencies are suspect, therefore no investigation will be satisfactory...
I've never seen any truther say why "subpoena powers" matters....it has simply become one of their parroting phrases without meaning.

Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
...I did a whole YouTube video on this and I interviewed several 9/11 Truth activists asking them what would satisfy them. None said that any investigation disproving CD would be satisfactory because they know it was CD. None of the ones I talked to wanted any kind of "truth and reconciliation" panel a la South Africa, they wanted grand juries, trials, and the full force of the law (including generous numbers of convictions for treason).

My attempts to work with Kevin Ryan on an independent WTC dust study failed utterly and earned me public ad hominem attacks against me and the guy I hired to do the dust study.

My more recent attempts to convince Mark Basile and all the Thermite paper signatories to work with me to create a protocol together that we could all agree on for a new WTC dust study was met with a wall of silence.
The two bottom lines are:
a) They are untruthful; AND
b) They cannot think coherently.

blunt and cruel but...

Note I said "untruthful" - not "liars". The distinction not all that relevant given that most of them suffer from some level of delusion and truthful adherence to delusion is not "lying" for most purposes. R Gage and T Sz possibly examples who may genuinely believe their delusions. So they may well not be liars. But there can be no doubt that much of what they claim is untruthful. (Note the careful wording avoiding PA )

Truthers (and trolls) in general repeatedly demonstrate that they cannot think coherently. The multiplicity of evidence showing limited thinking skills - with the key aspect probably the tendency to rely on "divergent" rather than "convergent" thinking. (Stated so bluntly they look like two opposing schools of thinking - not so but leave the topic for another time. One is "cannot think" and "diverge" is the defining characteristic. The other is "can think" and "converge" is the necessary characteristic of any reasoning from which valid conclusions are to be reached.)

And despite the number of references to that problem I have never seen any interest in discussing it on this or other forums. We don't want to "think about thinking"

Originally Posted by chrismohr View Post
...I'm feeling pretty discouraged re my years-long efforts to work together on such things.
I comprehend despite my long held concern that your willingness to engage truthers on their own ground would lead nowhere.
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:08 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Platypus View Post
Even an investigation that proved CD wouldn't be enough, because other truther cults whose dogma is other than CD, wouldn't accept it.

There are over 100 sects of the 9/11 conspiracy cult.

Succinctly stated.
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:15 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
911 truth followers, believers in the inside job nonsense can't think for themselves, and can't comprehend the many studies on 911...

Well said. I made the same point but a bit more complicated.

"Cannot think" is the botom line. and it is like "blind spots". Just as by definition you cannot see your own blind spots - those with limited thinking skills cannot think outside their limitations.

So, also by definition, I don't have any "blind spots' - because I cannot see them...

...I'd better stop before I dig in too deep - some troll is likely to quote mine my bits of humour.




Originally Posted by beachnut View Post
... Another study would only expose how much ignorance 911 truth followers have.
That's why Gage doesn't want another investigation whilst Basile and Ryan run away when Chris Mohr offers to collaborate. Obviously they have at least a gut feeing that they will lose if ever due process is followed.

Last edited by ozeco41; 31st August 2013 at 03:17 PM. Reason: spelling "thier"??? At my age......
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:21 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ozeco41 View Post
http://conleys.com.au/smilies/clap.gif
Well said. I made the same point but a bit more complicated.

"Cannot think" is the botom line. and it is like "blind spots". Just as by definition you cannot see your own blind spots - those with limited thinking skills cannot think outside their limitations.

So, also by definition, I don't have any "blind spots' - because I cannot see them...

...I'd better stop before I dig in too deep - some troll is likely to quote mine my bits of humour.





That s why Gage doesn't want another investigation, Basile and Ryan run away when Chris Mohr offers to collaborate. Obviously they have at least a gut feeing that they will lose if ever due process is followed.

Most 911 truth followers are transients when they take the time to think for themselves. The old studies will cure most 911 truth followers, as they begin to think for themselves.

911 truth claims are made up fantasy, like the CIA guided the hijacker pilots. Statements made up by failed logic, and paranoid minds. More studies fuel the paranoia.

Last edited by beachnut; 31st August 2013 at 03:25 PM.
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Suppose I was an eccentric billionaire. Perhaps for my own amusement I decide to set aside fifty million dollars for the all brand new Truther led investigation into the September 11th attacks that will obviate the hundreds of prior investigations that they don't like.

So the money is there waiting to be spent. How should I spend it?

Who can I hire and not have the Truthers claim they are poisoning the investigation from within?

What evidence can I use that won't be claimed to be faked or tainted later on?

What witnesses can be sourced that won't be claimed to be misled or plants later on?

I am all for spending all that money on this I just want to be sure it will be done to the satisfaction of the Truth Movement so that there will be no need to discredit it later. So how do I do it?
Are you hoping to get a better response to this question than you got to the 'assume molten steel existed' thread?
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:36 PM   #13
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You'd have to spend money searching for explosive residue or evidence of CD... And of course prove that fires and a collection of severed columns could not possible fail and cause the top drop. Tony would lead that investigation. I suppose they will want to interview under oath Cheney and Rummy and everyone of PNAC members... all the Neocons etc... and of course the CIA, FEMA and FBI ..then Silverstein, Guiliani and all the MIC corp execs in the twin towers.

I don't think anything would prove CD and so one needs to ask what is this all about in the end? Does the USG and corps lie? You betcha. So what else is new?
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Old 31st August 2013, 03:38 PM   #14
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I'd say **** the truthers and donate the money to the Afghan and Iraqi people, for what it's worth. Maybe they can be helped by this. Truthers can't be helped.
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Old 31st August 2013, 06:27 PM   #15
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Sorry Travis, but you could be that eccentric billionaire and blow your entire fortune on the proposed independent investigation and it would still be a fool's errand so long as the Truthers don't agree on a theory. And even if they did they would still side against you when, not if, such an investigation fails to produce a result other than 'the government had involvement in the comission of this crime'.
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Old 31st August 2013, 06:27 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by JSanderO View Post
You'd have to spend money searching for explosive residue or evidence of CD... And of course prove that fires and a collection of severed columns could not possible fail and cause the top drop. Tony would lead that investigation. I suppose they will want to interview under oath Cheney and Rummy and everyone of PNAC members... all the Neocons etc... and of course the CIA, FEMA and FBI ..then Silverstein, Guiliani and all the MIC corp execs in the twin towers.

I don't think anything would prove CD and so one needs to ask what is this all about in the end? Does the USG and corps lie? You betcha. So what else is new?
The FAA lies? Do you fly? NTSB lies? Military, all the military lies? The USAF lies? If you got some evidence you have a Pulitzer if you can find a newspaper to team with. Good luck.
So a new study would be a lie? yes, that would be 911 truth.

Quote:
We have all learned that data... RADES, black boxes, even calls from planes and so forth can be faked. We are left not with evidence, but with planted evidence to incriminate.
9/11 was a false flag and has the finger prints of intel services all over it. Who they were working for is yet to be determined.
What made you drop the nonsense; which study?

PNAC? that was funny, to see 911 truth blame PNAC, shows 911 truth can't connect the dots.


Quote:
Cutter or shaped charges may have been used at multiple locations in the core
What study made you aware you were spreading woo?

Another study would fail to change 911 truth. 911 truth failed to read before they spread woo the first time. 911 truth would want silly stuff investigated, as you pointed out.

A new study will not help 911 truth followers. The stuff that made you drop the inside job nonsense is what cures 911 truth followers, and it start with thinking for yourself, and learning what evidence is.

Last edited by beachnut; 31st August 2013 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 31st August 2013, 06:44 PM   #17
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Rebuild a tower. Fill it with stuff. Crash a plane into it. Take pictures and video. See what happens.

Need more than $50 million, but you can make that up in contributions and selling the movie rights. I suggest Kickstarter.
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Old 31st August 2013, 06:51 PM   #18
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Give the whole $50 mil to Gage/ae911t. Lump sum, no legal strings attached. The only condition is, the grant will be publicized (including a statement that the intended purpose is for investigating 9/11) and he must publicly acknowledge receiving the money.

All subsequent communication from Truthers can thenceforth be answered with "ask Gage how the investigation is going."
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Old 31st August 2013, 07:10 PM   #19
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Waste of time and money. Flush the cash down the toilet. you'll get the same results.
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Old 31st August 2013, 07:12 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Give the whole $50 mil to Gage/ae911t. Lump sum, no legal strings attached. The only condition is, the grant will be publicized (including a statement that the intended purpose is for investigating 9/11) and he must publicly acknowledge receiving the money.

All subsequent communication from Truthers can thenceforth be answered with "ask Gage how the investigation is going."
Sad part is, they've been giving him money for years and don't seem to care where it goes.

Ask a "truther" if they think Gage is a worthwhile investment and watch them dance.

To be fair he is doing his job well. He's making money for the company and not doing anything to jeopardize its future.
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Old 31st August 2013, 07:50 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Myriad View Post
Give the whole $50 mil to Gage/ae911t. Lump sum, no legal strings attached. The only condition is, the grant will be publicized (including a statement that the intended purpose is for investigating 9/11) and he must publicly acknowledge receiving the money.

All subsequent communication from Truthers can thenceforth be answered with "ask Gage how the investigation is going."
This one wins. They should be doing this already, with the amount of cash he's been given.
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Old 31st August 2013, 07:56 PM   #22
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Nothing will satisfy troofers.

That said, I would spend the money on expensive computer models with cool graphics. Then run every possible scenario. If you want to spend $50 million at least have fun with it.
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Old 31st August 2013, 08:03 PM   #23
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Build a steel frame skyscraper with core in core design, or buy an existing one. Try to demolish it using nanobananothermite. Try to see if you can do it without blinding flashes and earsplitting noise.

Cry when you can't. Blame it on sabatoge of your experiment by Mossad ninjas under orders of the (secretly not dismantled) PNAC at the (secretly not shuttered) HAARP facilities.
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Old 31st August 2013, 08:09 PM   #24
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If I were a mischievous billionaire, I would sponsor a conference for the sole purpose of presenting to Congress a coherent proposal for a "new, independent investigation", and invite Steven Jones, Alex Jones, Niels Harrit, CIT, P4T, Gage, Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Ace Baker - the whole gang. Plenty of video cameras. It would be pure comedy gold, orders of magnitude beyond the debates of the Judaean People's Front in Life of Brian.

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I AGREE
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Old 31st August 2013, 08:10 PM   #25
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Even if the National Academy of Sciences conducted the investigation, truthers still wouldn't believe a negative result for an inside job.
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Old 1st September 2013, 12:06 AM   #26
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Now now you cynics. We have all these Truthers talking all the time about a new investigation. Surely they have given some thought as to how it will be conducted provided there were funds to make it so. I'm just hoping some of them will share with me their plans so I can start budgeting appropriately.

Come on Truthers tell me how to spend the money.
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Old 1st September 2013, 04:32 AM   #27
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There is no witness that hasn't been tampered with, unless they say something truthers like.

There is no video that hasn't been faked, unless it proves some truther point,

There is no scientist that isn't compromised, unless their work validates a truther claim.

The best thing you can spend that money on is to produce a spoof video that relies on completely fake evidence to prove whatever piece of stupidity they will lap up most readily, and then make them eat it.

I saw this on DIF yesterday:

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=122

Quote:
All the evidence necessary is recorded on live camera - there is no purpose in arguing over who said what,or who thought this or that.
Live cameras have shown 9/11 was just a scam involving demolitions.
Live cameras have shown WTC7 and 9/11 were pre-scripted prior to the day.
Live cameras have shown that there was no structural damage to any of the collapsed/demolished buildings prior to ignition of the explosives.

That cannot be contended. It is forever recorded evidence of 9/11.

ALL the evidence from all fields and sources confirm those same facts.

There are no evidential facts showing otherwise.
There is no point wasting any money dealing with that kind of logic.
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Old 1st September 2013, 04:32 AM   #28
cjnewson88
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Truthers are too lazy. Even if they had 50 million to spend towards their investigation, they'd never get around to it.
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Old 1st September 2013, 05:20 AM   #29
Sunstealer
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Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
If I were a mischievous billionaire, I would sponsor a conference for the sole purpose of presenting to Congress a coherent proposal for a "new, independent investigation", and invite Steven Jones, Alex Jones, Niels Harrit, CIT, P4T, Gage, Judy Wood, Jim Fetzer, Ace Baker - the whole gang. Plenty of video cameras. It would be pure comedy gold, orders of magnitude beyond the debates of the Judaean People's Front in Life of Brian.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
Such a black hole of stupid, where no sense can escape from, could potentially destroy the universe.

I really wish we had a thread here reserved solely for truthers to post in.
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Old 1st September 2013, 07:34 AM   #30
BasqueArch
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
With lies we get the reality we choose and protection for the guilty.

MM
Pithy explanation of why Truthers Believe what they do.
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Old 1st September 2013, 08:18 AM   #31
thedopefishlives
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Now now you cynics. We have all these Truthers talking all the time about a new investigation. Surely they have given some thought as to how it will be conducted provided there were funds to make it so. I'm just hoping some of them will share with me their plans so I can start budgeting appropriately.

Come on Truthers tell me how to spend the money.
I know you're trying to discourage the cynical answers, Travis, but you'll notice that we've had a Truther post in this thread, but he did not attempt to answer your query. There's a reason for that, and that reason is, they don't have an answer. They have a vague idea of "subpoena anyone and everyone who is or ever was in the government to find out what lies they've been telling" and "send a bunch of people to jail and/or execution", but outside of that, no one even knows what this so-called "new independent investigation" is supposed to do. It's a stock phrase that sounds plausible on its face, but is really just an excuse for getting to beat up on government figures they don't like and exercise power over the people they feel have been keeping them down.
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Old 1st September 2013, 08:42 AM   #32
beachnut
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Suppose I was an eccentric billionaire. Perhaps for my own amusement I decide to set aside fifty million dollars for the all brand new Truther led investigation into the September 11th attacks that will obviate the hundreds of prior investigations that they don't like.

...?
I would get part of the money and pay gravy to write a common sense guide for those to avoid woo. 5 million would do, and 10 percent fee for me... don't tell gravy

911 truth followers will not read a new study, if they do and they have some critical thinking skills, they would not be 911 truth followers. Which they can do now with the old studies if they could stop using google and use their head.

Last edited by LashL; 1st September 2013 at 12:24 PM. Reason: Copied post to relevant thread; edited to keep relevant parts in relevant threads.
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Old 1st September 2013, 09:08 AM   #33
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My 2 cent…I don’t believe the Truth Movement wants a new investigation. They just want to demand one, and when it doesn’t happen, they point to it as evidence of a government conspiracy.

David Ray Griffin, Richard Gage, Kevin Ryan, etc., etc. all know that a truly new and independent investigation would never produce any evidence of Control Demolition, so they don’t want one, and make no attempt to fund or organize one.
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Old 1st September 2013, 09:18 AM   #34
LSSBB
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Originally Posted by MileHighMadness View Post
My 2 cent…I don’t believe the Truth Movement wants a new investigation. They just want to demand one, and when it doesn’t happen, they point to it as evidence of a government conspiracy.

David Ray Griffin, Richard Gage, Kevin Ryan, etc., etc. all know that a truly new and independent investigation would never produce any evidence of Control Demolition, so they don’t want one, and make no attempt to fund or organize one.
Gilligan never gets off the island.
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Old 1st September 2013, 09:23 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Miragememories View Post
With lies we get the reality we choose and protection for the guilty.

MM
Care to address the OP? It's directed at you guys, you know. Inquiring minds want to know.

What if?
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Old 1st September 2013, 12:59 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Waste of time and money. Flush the cash down the toilet. you'll get the same results.


Hookers and blow. Not more productive, but a hell of a lot more fun.
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Old 1st September 2013, 02:20 PM   #37
Travis
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Surely Truthers will do better in this thread than in the one where I agree there was melted steel but wanted to know what it meant.
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Old 1st September 2013, 02:35 PM   #38
Newtons Bit
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Rebuild a tower. Fill it with stuff. Crash a plane into it. Take pictures and video. See what happens.

Need more than $50 million, but you can make that up in contributions and selling the movie rights. I suggest Kickstarter.
And the reply, "just because it did collapse from a plane in your experiment doesn't mean that there wasn't therm*te in the towers on 9/11".
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Old 1st September 2013, 03:06 PM   #39
The Platypus
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9/11 conspiracy cult minions only say they want an investigation because that's what the conspiracy websites tell them to say.
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Old 1st September 2013, 03:28 PM   #40
thedopefishlives
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Originally Posted by Travis View Post
Surely Truthers will do better in this thread than in the one where I agree there was melted steel but wanted to know what it meant.
Reply hazy, try again later.
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