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Tags "Bigfoot Files" , bigfoot , Brian Sykes , yeti

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Old 23rd October 2013, 07:16 PM   #361
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Originally Posted by Alan Lowey View Post
the personality of the general forumite skeptic
Just to clarify, the skeptical personality prefers evidence to blather in the face of the unlikely. The wackadoodle personality is quite the opposite.

Specific to this topic, we don't know what Sykes has to offer until we see it. Speculation abounds.
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Old 24th October 2013, 04:03 AM   #362
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So for those better versed than I in the technology that provided a "100% match," is the issue that the match is claimed for a very small segment of that MtDNA? If the sequence was short enough or cherry picked to show so, could I not claim a 100% match with an ground sloth?
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Old 24th October 2013, 06:03 AM   #363
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
So for those better versed than I in the technology that provided a "100% match," is the issue that the match is claimed for a very small segment of that MtDNA? If the sequence was short enough or cherry picked to show so, could I not claim a 100% match with an ground sloth?
Only if you could demonstrate that the short sequence Sykes is talking about is NOT unique to the animal he got the 100% match with, e.g., the sequence is common to many animals, therefore the wrong conclusion.

All things bf aside, he doesn't seem to be a Ketchum, so it is fairly unlikely he'd make such a claim on a sequence that was NOT so uniquely matching the corresponding sequence in the pleistocene bear reference sample.

Once he releases his paper, then this question will be answered - and undoubtedly questioned by his peers, since he's claiming a new species.
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Old 24th October 2013, 06:35 AM   #364
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^Yeah, I'm not Melba-ing him so much as just wondering. For example, maybe there's been greater conservation of archaic material among bears in general, such that the threshold that might indicate a unique species in taxa that have diverged more rapidly from their ancestors might not be an appropriate standard for bears.

Just thinking out loud, figuratively, by writing . . .
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Old 24th October 2013, 07:18 AM   #365
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I would think that the DNA record of the bears of the Himalayas is fairly sparse.

If that segment of MtDNA that matches the ancient polar bear DNA, also matches a segment of Himalayan bear, but it's just not in the record.

The problem is, the Norway jawbone is 120k years old or whatever, and there is no way that polar bears migrated from Norway, to Himalayas in 120k years.

To add some stuff: A study about polar/brown bear integration is described here http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar...s-dna-20130314

And note the comment near the end: "All polar bears can be traced to one female brown bear in Ireland" or something like that.
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Old 24th October 2013, 07:32 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The problem is, the Norway jawbone is 120k years old or whatever, and there is no way that polar bears migrated from Norway, to Himalayas in 120k years.
It didn't have to happen that way.

It is possible that the ancestor of modern polar bears was a species with widespread distribution 120K years ago. That ancestral (mother) species could be found in Norway and in the Himalayas. But the modern polar bear species didn't evolve in the Himalayas it evolved much further north. Some bears with direct lineage from that ancestral species still live around the Himalayas. We don't really know what they look like or act like because all we have are some hairs.

I'm not necessarily endorsing that but maybe it's what would explain away the bear migrating from Norway.
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Old 24th October 2013, 07:35 AM   #367
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A more likely scenario (other than the evidence being deposited there by humans) is that Asian Brown bear DNA on file does not contain the portion of the DNA that Sykes matched to the Polar Bear DNA. That segment he used, is missing from the DNA library on Asian Brown Bears from the Himalayas.
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Old 24th October 2013, 07:49 AM   #368
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I watched the program on YouTube (which is still available with streaming devices) and it reminded me of MonsterQuest. Lots of gimmicky and trendy graphics and artistic depictions come at you rapid fire. It's perfect for ADHD or impatient people because you are bombarded by everything made to make you think "whoa dude".

Anyway, Sykes seems to be of the opinion that this cryptic bear looks and acts significantly different when compared to other local bears that are well known. This is mainly because he thinks that the Yeti witnesses throughout history are people who have seen this very odd cryptic bear.

At any point Sykes could have said "But of course there could be a bipedal hominoid creature living there in addition to this odd bear" but he never said that at all. This may be because he thinks that this bear fully satisfies the role of the only physical creature that spawns witness stories that sometimes include describing the bear as if it were apelike or humanlike.

He's crazy if he thinks that his findings are going to put a stop to the fringe belief that Yeti is a wild hominoid.
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Old 24th October 2013, 08:23 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
I would think that the DNA record of the bears of the Himalayas is fairly sparse.
Why? It's not as though no one has ever been to the Himalayas, or hunted bear there.
Despite your doubts, there are DNA records in GenBank, and considering Sykes was analysing hair, ostensibly from the Himalayas, and most likely to be a bear, you don't think that he might have done a simple search to see if there were DNA records of the Himalayan Brown Bear?
(hint : he did)
(hint : there are)
Quote:
If that segment of MtDNA that matches the ancient polar bear DNA, also matches a segment of Himalayan bear, but it's just not in the record.
Again - when he releases his paper on the subject, his peers will be able to review just that.
You don't think that he might have considered this point before stating a 100% match with the polar bear mDNA sequence? Regardless, his peers are probably bright enough to consider this as well. It is not as though this is the first DNA sequencing ever done on an animal to determine it's ancestry.
Quote:
The problem is, the Norway jawbone is 120k years old or whatever, and there is no way that polar bears migrated from Norway, to Himalayas in 120k years.
Non sequitur, since the Himalayan bear is not a polar bear, but a Brown bear. To quote Dr.Sykes from the article in the OP, " I don't think it means there are ancient polar bears wandering around the Himalayas.
...
It could mean there is a sub species of brown bear in the High Himalayas descended from the bear that was the ancestor of the polar bear. Or it could mean there has been more recent hybridisation between the brown bear and the descendent of the ancient polar bear."

"The assertion is that it may have as one of it's ancestors, the 120k polar bear.
Quote:
To add some stuff: A study about polar/brown bear integration is described here http://articles.latimes.com/2013/mar...s-dna-20130314

And note the comment near the end: "All polar bears can be traced to one female brown bear in Ireland" or something like that.
ergo, all polar bears are brown bears... or something like that ....
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Old 24th October 2013, 08:42 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
A more likely scenario (other than the evidence being deposited there by humans) is that Asian Brown bear DNA on file does not contain the portion of the DNA that Sykes matched to the Polar Bear DNA. That segment he used, is missing from the DNA library on Asian Brown Bears from the Himalayas.
This assumes that Sykes is incompetent.

Really? You think that a geneticist of his experience would be ignorant of which sequences he'd need to compare in order to make the statements he has regarding this potential new species/hybrid?

His peers would be all over his paper if he was to make such an obvious error.
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Old 24th October 2013, 08:44 AM   #371
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It will probably be an unconventional presentation for the peer reviewers mainly because the provenance issues are really different than what a typical scientific paper on "new animal" would have. Generally, scientists do not need to concern themselves with fraud, misinformation and error in establishing the provenance of physical biological material. When a new rat species is found in a cloud forest we typically have the rat tissues collected right there at the location. They can analyze the rat DNA and then say that this new rat is found at this specific location and environment.

But the new bear thing is tricky because the specimens may have started out as Yeti hoaxes and may not have been bears collected in the places that are being claimed. To say that the new bear is a Himalayan native you should be certain that the hair samples really were collected where they say they were.

The peer reviewers may be facing a dilemma of sorts because Sykes cannot actually present a type specimen that is known to have been collected there.

I don't know if Sykes will go out on a limb to explain that the location provenance is self-evident because this new bear is so different that it causes "Yeti reports" from the locals where it lives.
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Old 24th October 2013, 08:56 AM   #372
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I agree. He's going to be hard pressed to pursuade anyone of lcoation provenance.
Perhaps it not necessary to establish his new species/hybrid status? I'd be suprised.
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Old 24th October 2013, 09:13 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
It will probably be an unconventional presentation for the peer reviewers ..........
I agree with pretty much everything you said in this post, but I wonder if Sykes will go anywhere near as far as you seem to suggest.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if Sykes reports only on what he found IN the hairs, and not speculate at all on where or what the hairs might have come from. I would be staggered if there is any claim to have discovered a new animal, or to have solved the Yeti thing. I expect a dry-as-dust exposition on the mtDNA of a couple of hairs, noting that they don't match anything else in Genbank other than an ancient polar bear.

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Old 24th October 2013, 10:22 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
This assumes that Sykes is incompetent.

Really? You think that a geneticist of his experience would be ignorant of which sequences he'd need to compare in order to make the statements he has regarding this potential new species/hybrid?

His peers would be all over his paper if he was to make such an obvious error.
my bold

What paper?

Isn't the usual course of science to submit the paper and then publicly and/or privately support your science?
Right now all we have is a guy soaking up some cash and limelight based on his reputation - not his actual science - in this case.

He might as well go live with the Kardashians.
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Old 24th October 2013, 10:51 AM   #375
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Originally Posted by rockinkt View Post
my bold

What paper?
You know, the one he was going to publish in Nov2012.
PUBLICATION PHASE
Results from DNA analysis will be prepared for publication in a peer-reviewed science journal. No results will be released until any embargoes on publication have passed.
Quote:
Isn't the usual course of science to submit the paper and then publicly and/or privately support your science?
As stated in August,
"Following normal procedure, no results or other information will be available prior to publication, so please do not enquire."
... um....
Quote:
Right now all we have is a guy soaking up some cash and limelight based on his reputation - not his actual science - in this case.

He might as well go live with the Kardashians.
er... there's a book deal....
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Old 24th October 2013, 01:04 PM   #376
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Do we know the actual reason he couldn't identify the one sample the first time? It was totally unknown after his first tests.

Also, the story is that a skin was presented, but only hairs were taken. Do we know why they didn't just take a piece of the skin with the hairs attached?
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Old 24th October 2013, 01:09 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I watched the program on YouTube (which is still available with streaming devices) and it reminded me of MonsterQuest. Lots of gimmicky and trendy graphics and artistic depictions come at you rapid fire. It's perfect for ADHD or impatient people because you are bombarded by everything made to make you think "whoa dude".

Anyway, Sykes seems to be of the opinion that this cryptic bear looks and acts significantly different when compared to other local bears that are well known. This is mainly because he thinks that the Yeti witnesses throughout history are people who have seen this very odd cryptic bear.

At any point Sykes could have said "But of course there could be a bipedal hominoid creature living there in addition to this odd bear" but he never said that at all. This may be because he thinks that this bear fully satisfies the role of the only physical creature that spawns witness stories that sometimes include describing the bear as if it were apelike or humanlike.

He's crazy if he thinks that his findings are going to put a stop to the fringe belief that Yeti is a wild hominoid.
That's what I was getting at earlier. Sykes thinks this bear is the mythical yeti that people are/have been seeing. He thinks it stands upright a lot and acts different. The yeti theme to the show and reports is intentional.
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Old 24th October 2013, 02:18 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's what I was getting at earlier. Sykes thinks this bear is the mythical yeti that people are/have been seeing. He thinks it stands upright a lot and acts different. The yeti theme to the show and reports is intentional.

I think that is a reasonable theory, and I think it applies to Figboot as well, with misidentified black bears probably being the culprit.

It seems quite logical to me. The sightings of both are in the same geographical areas (see my earlier post about ecological niche modelleing http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=348) . The likelihood is that there are many, many black bear sightings that go unreported because there is nothing unusual about them. I am told that hunters in those areas see them regularly, and that it is not uncommon to see them standing erect *

Black bear population densities in North America range from about one bear every 3 sq. miles to about three bears per sq mile; the highest being in the Pacific Northwest, where, unsurprisingly, a lot of Figboot sightings are. Now I can't put an actual figure on it, but if the ratio of black bear sightings to Figboot sightings is about, say 100:1, then its stands to reason that the Figboot sighting is in all likelihood just a misidentified black bear.

Whether or not this applies to the Yeti situation I am unsure of as I don't know enough about how common bears are in the areas where Yeti are reported.


* I have no reference for either of these assertions. Perhaps there is a hunter/outdoors person here will be able to confirm/deny the truth of this.
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Old 24th October 2013, 02:20 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Do we know the actual reason he couldn't identify the one sample the first time? It was totally unknown after his first tests.

Also, the story is that a skin was presented, but only hairs were taken. Do we know why they didn't just take a piece of the skin with the hairs attached?
To avoid contamination.

From the project page at OxU,
In order to avoid misidentification of samples due to contamination, our preferred material is hair, although tissues will be considered.
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Old 24th October 2013, 02:30 PM   #380
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
That's what I was getting at earlier. Sykes thinks this bear is the mythical yeti that people are/have been seeing. He thinks it stands upright a lot and acts different. The yeti theme to the show and reports is intentional.
A pretty remarkable extrapolation from two samples of hair. That's up there with declaring physical attributes to gigantopithicus from a tooth.

And, as has been pointed out - he can not be certain that these hair samples actually originated from the Himalayan area.
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Old 24th October 2013, 05:32 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by BrennanP View Post

And a to you to.

Welcome to JREF. May the words flow freely from your fingers.
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Old 24th October 2013, 06:02 PM   #382
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Originally Posted by EHocking View Post
You know, the one he was going to publish in Nov2012.
PUBLICATION PHASE
Results from DNA analysis will be prepared for publication in a peer-reviewed science journal. No results will be released until any embargoes on publication have passed.
As stated in August,
"Following normal procedure, no results or other information will be available prior to publication, so please do not enquire."
... um....
er... there's a book deal....


Sykes seems to have picked up some bad habits from his time with footers.
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Old 24th October 2013, 06:31 PM   #383
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I wonder what it would be like if the people of the Himalaya region were technologically developed and had a globalist culture. What if everyone over there got on the Internet and they even had a version of the BFRO but it was for Yeti people... like the YFRO. Would there be the same situation with Yeti sightings everywhere from the deserts to the highest peaks? Folks coming on the web and saying they have Yeti habituations. Wall-eyed hicks saying they shot a Yeti and kept a piece and now we are going to get it tested. Then there is a Professor at the University of Mount Everest who says that the Yeti appears to exist and he has plaster casts sitting up there in cabinets his office on the craggy cliff.

Would the Yeti reveal itself to be a cultural phenomenon just the same as Bigfoot with only the main difference being the limitations of trans-cultural transmission for the people of the Himalayan region?

Are there tens of thousands of Asians who would love to tell others about their close encounter with a Yeti? And what about those who are many hundreds of miles away from the mountains - don't they have amazing wild ape-man stories to tell as well?

Would Bigfooters and Yetifooters have to agree that the best way to find relic hominids worldwide is to start by bringing modems to all the rural people of the world?
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Old 24th October 2013, 06:46 PM   #384
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This guy had some hairs. Did Sykes get any of these?

Originally Posted by Creekfreak View Post
Ive got 4 large amounts of different hair samples from bigfoots if anyone wants to pay for them to be dna tested let me know. I will give them up for free just to shut some of you up.
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Old 24th October 2013, 11:55 PM   #385
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
This guy had some hairs. Did Sykes get any of these?
I imagine we'll find out on Sunday when the second episode, which deals with Bigfoot, is broadcast.

I gather the third and final episode will deal with similar legends of strange creatures in Russia.
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Old 25th October 2013, 12:00 AM   #386
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I think the 3rd episode will also cover Orang Pendek in Indonesia. DAMHIKT, because I forget stuff.
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Old 25th October 2013, 12:39 AM   #387
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I thought the 3rd was focusing on the Russian Almasty? The 2nd episode looks like a joke, imo, with all of those Foot Hunters.
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Old 25th October 2013, 01:40 AM   #388
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
.....The 2nd episode looks like a joke, imo, with all of those Foot Hunters.
Good to see a nice open mind before you've actually seen anything. I wonder if you will be saying it is a joke if Sykes rubbishes all the evidence for BF, and says that all the DNA is from humans, bears, raccoons and dogs?
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Old 25th October 2013, 04:00 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Good to see a nice open mind before you've actually seen anything. I wonder if you will be saying it is a joke if Sykes rubbishes all the evidence for BF, and says that all the DNA is from humans, bears, raccoons and dogs?
If he trashes the BF evidence, then footers will probably trash his yeti theory. And his yeti theory is pretty shaky anyway.

I predict that Sykes does not alienate the BF community.
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Old 25th October 2013, 04:05 AM   #390
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What I'd love to see is details of who provided each BF sample and what it actually was.
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Old 25th October 2013, 04:56 AM   #391
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I would venture that the Sykes' study is the death knell for the hopes of Bigfooters who thought DNA would prove the beast's existence.

This wasn't a Ketchum study, or a Meldrum study, this was one of the world's top DNA scholars, taking the best available samples, the samples that Bigfooter's have been waiting for someone to test. He took these samples, and the most groundbreaking thing he found was that two of the 'Yeti' samples were bear DNA. A weird bear, but a bear, a real animal.

What can the Footers do now? Will they double-down? and demand more field time from the Field Footers? Will they cut their losses and admit that they were mistaken? Will they increase their cries of bias and skullduggery on the part of mainstream science?

Bigfootery didn't just lose here, they got stomped like a 'Narc at a biker rally.
(From an old Dennis Miller routine about Walter Mondale)
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Old 25th October 2013, 05:09 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
What can the Footers do now? Will they double-down? and demand more field time from the Field Footers? Will they cut their losses and admit that they were mistaken? Will they increase their cries of bias and skullduggery on the part of mainstream science?
What they already are doing with it. Trim the unfavorable aspects, and use it as "evidence" which "strengthens" the case for Bigfoot. Chew the meat, and spit out the bones, as they say. Bigfoot is very amenable.
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Old 25th October 2013, 05:39 AM   #393
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If you can fashion apologetic for a six-foot bipedal primate living in your back yard eating Snausages, throwing pebbles (fruity or not) and watching you watch TV, you can pretty much invent any sort of bigfoot silver lining you like.
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Old 25th October 2013, 05:52 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Bigfootery didn't just lose here, they got stomped like a 'Narc at a biker rally.
I haven't heard any Bigfoot believers say that Yeti or Bigfoot doesn't exist. Have you?
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Old 25th October 2013, 06:01 AM   #395
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The footers will continue to do what they have already started--question the provenance. Suddenly they are concerned about provenance. We're to take people at face value when they tell their stories, but we can't trust them to collect a hair sample properly. Yeah, that makes sense. Let's have the loosest standards possible when accepting and considering anecdotal evidence, but physical evidence? Nope, have to see the animal it came from first. That way when it comes back as bear they get to dodge the blow. DWA is leading this particular charge. The irony escapes him however.
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Old 25th October 2013, 06:04 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I haven't heard any Bigfoot believers say that Yeti or Bigfoot doesn't exist. Have you?
No, but Mondale probably rationalized his electoral defeat by saying he got a good chunk of popular votes.

It may take a few weeks, or even may take until the paper comes out, but there will be a mass desertion of footers. This was going to be the cat's pajamas for them until they are able to process how utterly crushing this result is.
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Old 25th October 2013, 06:12 AM   #397
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The programme on Bigfoot hasn't been broadcast yet. We don't yet know what the results of the genetic analysis of "Bigfoot" hairs are, so far we only have the "yeti" results.

The fact that the pre publicity made a big thing out of the yeti analysis and said nothing about the bigfoot analysis may give us a big hint, but strictly speaking we don't yet know that the results for the latter are "crushing".
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Old 25th October 2013, 06:18 AM   #398
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I don't see the mass exodus happening. They will still have their high priests like Meldrum and Munns preaching to the flock and keeping a tight reign on the faithful. Lesser priests like DWA and outright wackos like Mulder will pitch in and do their bit as well. The brave NAWAC templars will be out in the spooky Oklahoma bush crusading for a wood ape carcass. No, a few undecided may leave the congregation in search of a lake monster temple, but the core footer folks will remain the same.

The only thing that I think could really make a dent in them is for the PGF to be conclusively debunked. Not sure how that could happen, but that is what would be needed I think. That is the holy grail for many footers. If that touchstone piece of lore were exposed as a hoax, then many would wander in bewilderment and shock and never return. imo anyway...

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Old 25th October 2013, 06:29 AM   #399
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Originally Posted by dmaker View Post
.......The only thing that I think could really make a dent in them is for the PGF to be conclusively debunked. Not sure how that could happen,........
A televised confession by Gimlin or Patricia Patterson would probably do the trick. But hey, folks, chunks of this thread have already made it to AAH, so if we could stick to the bear story, Sykes and yeti that would be great. I guess we'll revert to the Bigfoot DNA thread for the responses to this Sunday's programme, as it is advertised as being on BF DNA.
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Old 25th October 2013, 07:00 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
No, but Mondale probably rationalized his electoral defeat by saying he got a good chunk of popular votes.

It may take a few weeks, or even may take until the paper comes out, but there will be a mass desertion of footers. This was going to be the cat's pajamas for them until they are able to process how utterly crushing this result is.
No way. A guy shoots a bear and decades later another guy checks the pelt and confirms it is a bear. We don't know if it was shot in the Himalayas anyway. How does that show that Yeti doesn't exist or that Yeti is a bear?

Then a guy maybe finds bear hairs stuck to a hollow tree in a forest and then years later another guy checks the hair and confirms it is a bear. We don't know if those hairs were planted. But that won't show that Yeti doesn't exist.

If anybody wants the Yeti to be an unconfirmed bipedal primate then Sykes isn't going to stop them.
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