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Tags "Bigfoot Files" , bigfoot , Brian Sykes , yeti

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Old 17th October 2013, 07:32 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Ahhh...so it's not a 100% match at all, really.

It's a match to the female line of descent?
Yes, that's how I understand it. The ancient polar bear and Sykes' "new(?)" bear have a common ancestor via the female line (if the mtDNA matches). That doesn't necessarily implies a new subspecies of brown bear though, imho.

Last edited by Castro; 17th October 2013 at 09:27 PM.
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Old 17th October 2013, 07:46 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
...How can an identical twin of a 120,000 year old polar bear be a hybrid brown bear from Bhutan?...
I don't know.

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Originally Posted by dafydd View Post
So nobody knows where the hair came from.
They do. It came from the floor sink of a Chinese restaurant in downtown Buffalo.

Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
http://www.bigfootencounters.com/articles/morons.htm
Quote:
Abominable Snowman is really .......a small duck
September 14 2003
Sunday, September 14, 2003 at 03:51 JST
AOMORI The legendary Abominable Snowman of the Himalayas is actually a small duck living in Inakoshira Park in Tokyo's funky suburb of Kichijo-ji, Japanese researchers admitted Saturday, casting doubt on an ongoing expedition to find the beast.

Kazawa Hideke, a "keen duck watcher" in the Park was adamant that the duck was the creature that alpinists had been searching for for nearly 95 years. "It depends on the level of afternoon light," he was quoted as saying, "but after five cans of Sapporo beer, I can (hic) confirm that the duck is the much-hunted Abominable Snowman." he said before falling into the lake.
Finally the real Yeti truth.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Clearly, the giant bear was killed by a yeti, fed upon at site A, and then transported via a Hobo Bag, to the other location, where the leftovers were eaten.
To quote The Shrike, Bingo! You always seem to figure it out firstest.
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Old 17th October 2013, 08:51 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
More bipedal?

But it's a 100% match...
That was my thought also.
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Old 17th October 2013, 10:38 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
It's not just that. As I have said, this reporting has all the hallmarks of a documentary series hyping itself by sending press releases to newspapers, hence the trailer for the documentary itself on the Telegraph link.

IOW, it's an advert for a show on TV.
Very true. But bear in mind that I linked to a BBC interview with Sykes, so you can actually hear direct from the horses mouth, so to speak.......albeit just a couple of minutes worth.......and not rely just on the TV press hand-out.
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Old 18th October 2013, 12:03 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Come on, get real. There is no way a population of polar bears has made it thousands of miles across Asia, then climbed into the mountains.....and nobody noticed.
Just like there's no way a 90 kilo, near metre tall Antelope could avoid detection in Vietnam until 1992, right?
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Old 18th October 2013, 12:11 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
It is not unprecedented. Reinhold Messner in "My Quest For The Yeti" page 156 (2000):

I guess Sykes read this book or met Messner.
That wouldn't surprise me, Messner would be very well known as someone with experience of the area.
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Last edited by Damien Evans; 18th October 2013 at 12:13 AM.
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Old 18th October 2013, 12:17 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post


Thanks, I needed a laugh.
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Old 18th October 2013, 12:32 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Just like there's no way a 90 kilo, near metre tall Antelope could avoid detection in Vietnam until 1992, right?
It didn't. The locals knew it very well.

But you miss my point. I was responding to the suggestion that this was just an out of place polar bear.
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Old 18th October 2013, 03:53 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
Just like there's no way a 90 kilo, near metre tall Antelope could avoid detection in Vietnam until 1992, right?
Even if I accept your premise, that was 21 years ago now...
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Old 18th October 2013, 04:31 AM   #90
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
More bipedal?

But it's a 100% match...
1 word 4 u:

Lamarck.
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Old 18th October 2013, 05:06 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
Even if I accept your premise, that was 21 years ago now...
What do you mean if?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saola
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Old 18th October 2013, 05:15 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Damien Evans View Post
What do you mean if?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saola
Thanks, but I can look things up on my own.

It didn't avoid detection until 1992, unless you don't count the people who were hunting and eating them all along...
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Old 18th October 2013, 05:39 AM   #93
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Well, some bigfoot enthusiasts are taking a positive attitude towards the no-yeti news, finding discovery of a heretofore "uncatalogued polar bear" in the Himalayas perfectly analogous with an undiscovered 6 foot primate in North America.

That's a meme which will have wings with these unsinkable rubber ducks.
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Old 18th October 2013, 05:47 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Well, some bigfoot enthusiasts are taking a positive attitude towards the no-yeti news, finding discovery of a heretofore "uncatalogued polar bear" in the Himalayas perfectly analogous with an undiscovered 6 foot primate in North America.

That's a meme which will have wings with these unsinkable rubber ducks.
One of the "uncatalogued polar bears" was apparently slumming in a bamboo forest...
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:04 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
One of the "uncatalogued polar bears" was apparently slumming in a bamboo forest...
Maybe it developed a taste for Panda?
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:08 AM   #96
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Well, some bigfoot enthusiasts are taking a positive attitude towards the no-yeti news, finding discovery of a heretofore "uncatalogued polar bear" in the Himalayas perfectly analogous with an undiscovered 6 foot primate in North America.

That's a meme which will have wings with these unsinkable rubber ducks.
So this would be twice now that Sykes issued a careless statement that 'footers are using to their advantage? I can hardly wait to hear what he has to say about Smeja's boot juice.
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:12 AM   #97
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The Yeti has been known to associate with the Red Panda.
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:27 AM   #98
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
So this would be twice now that Sykes issued a careless statement that 'footers are using to their advantage?
In general the world doesn't care about Bigfoot believers. But Sykes has spoken to mainstream wildlife biologists with this one. He says there is an extraordinary bear living over there which nobody has ever seen besides a few terrified and dumbstruck witnesses. They say it is a bear like none other. So now something totally new has come up and it is less than satisfying (to me).

Show me the bear!
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:57 AM   #99
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
......He says there is an extraordinary bear living over there which nobody has ever seen .......
Apart from the shot one they got one of the samples from, you mean?
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:58 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The Yeti has been known to associate with the Red Panda.
That violates its parole, doesn't it?
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Old 18th October 2013, 06:59 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Apart from the shot one they got one of the samples from, you mean?
Where is that one?
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Old 18th October 2013, 07:00 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Apart from the shot one they got one of the samples from, you mean?
As I said.

Nobody has ever seen.
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Old 18th October 2013, 07:15 AM   #103
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There's no good reason why this press release would stop a Yeti believer. A wild bipedal Himalayan hominoid could live alongside the ancestor of polar bears.

This could actually increase the confidence of Yeti believers. See... not only is it nearly impossible to get evidence for the wild primate (Yeti) but it is also true for the New Bear. These are both rare and shy creatures who live in difficult environments. A person could say: Even now into the 21st century we do not have a photograph of a Yeti or a New Bear.

I'll give my opinions. Sykes has not yet convinced me that this New Bear is a real thing. And say it is real - he has not yet convinced me that New Bear is exactly what people are seeing when they see the Wild Hairy Walking Ape of the Himalayas.

Sykes could easily raise $50,000+ cash to give to the hunter for "the remainder of the mummified carcass of the extraordinarily different bear representing a new and important species and for which the carcass can serve as type specimen..."
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Old 18th October 2013, 07:16 AM   #104
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Let's just keep this clear for now. These samples are very sketchy.

Quote:
The sample from Ladakh came from the mummified remains of a creature shot by a hunter around 40 years ago. He considered the animal so unusual, and so alarming, he kept some of its remains. A sample of the hair was passed to Professor Sykes by a French mountaineer who was given it by the hunter around a decade ago. The second sample was in the form of a single hair, found in a bamboo forest by an expedition of filmmakers, also around ten years ago.
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Old 18th October 2013, 07:21 AM   #105
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What's worth noting is that both samples came into "availability" 10 years ago.
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:01 AM   #106
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
That violates its parole, doesn't it?
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:08 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
So this would be twice now that Sykes issued a careless statement that 'footers are using to their advantage? I can hardly wait to hear what he has to say about Smeja's boot juice.
Yes, I agree:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-24565282
Quote:
...In the Himalayas I found two very interesting samples from yetis or reported to be from yetis by local people they are genetically identical to a polar bear...The genetic profile of that bear is the same as the bear that I found in the Himalayas...
It sounds deceiving to me considering that we only have the mitochondrial genome of that ancient polar bear.
I suppose it's a good promotional speech.

ETA:...and he found nothing himself in the Himalayas btw.

Last edited by Castro; 18th October 2013 at 08:33 AM.
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:13 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Apart from the shot one they got one of the samples from, you mean?
Show me the body.

Based on what I've seen the sample came from a someone with a story about meeting someone else with a story about an event further in the past and some unidentified animal remains. I see two layers of hearsay and a very dirty chain of custody. This, coupled with the assertion of a "100%" match with a 40,000 year old (at the very least) DNA sample is casting some VERY reasonable doubt.
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:15 AM   #109
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Quote:
Professor: 'Yeti hairs genetically identical to polar bear'
Then they are polar bear hairs...?
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Old 18th October 2013, 08:31 AM   #110
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About Reinhold Messner's encounter with the Yeti in 1986. This is obviously not any bear being described here...

Quote:
It was dusk; he was climbing a steep, densely vegetated slope. Suddenly something large and dark stepped out ahead of him. He watched it racing along in front, flitting in and out of the trees, upright like a man, but moving faster than any man could. Neither branches nor ditches slowed it down. At one point it stood motionless only 10 yards away, then disappeared.

He saw it again, later that night, running in the moonlight. It looked more than seven feet tall and immensely strong, but agile too. Covered in hair, with short legs and long, powerful arms, it made angry hissing noises, and for a second he saw its eyes and teeth before it ran off into the trees.
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Old 18th October 2013, 09:50 AM   #111
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More info and another scientist weighs in on this whole thing.

Quote:
Specifically, Sykes's team looked at the 12S RNA gene, something that has already been analysed in all known mammalian species. By comparing his samples with those in GenBank, the international repository of gene sequences, Sykes was able to identify the animals that the hair might have from. "In the case of these two yeti samples that we're talking about, they matched a sequence in the GenBank from a polar bear jaw found in Svalbard, which is at least 40,000 years old." This was around the time that the polar bear and the related brown bear were separating into different species.
Quote:
Bill Amos, a professor of evolutionary genetics at the University of Cambridge, cautioned that forensic samples of DNA, such as the ones being examined by Sykes, were always difficult to deal with. First off, scientists needed to be careful about the true source of the samples. The sorts of people who might go looking for yetis, said Amos, might have also have been up to the Arctic and encountered polar bears at some point, leaving open the possibility that their clothing had been contaminated with polar bear hairs.

"We are always aware of hoaxes and things in this kind of area and you have to take Brian Sykes's word that the hairs came from somebody who genuinely believed they had seen a yeti or found a footprint [and kept it safe]," said Amos. "Equally there are people who quite like a good story and clever somebody might have planted some hairs or given them to some villagers and told them: 'Why don't you say this comes from a footprint?' The evidence is as strong as the veracity of the links. From Brian Sykes back to the hair is fine. Where the hair comes from and how it got there, I would be more sceptical about."

Amos said he was sceptical that the samples found in the Himalayas were those of polar bears but the idea there might be an unknown type of white bear in the region was not out of the question. "What a large bear up there would find to feed on is another matter," he said. "I guess it could be looking at domestic cattle but most species do leave quite a lot of evidence around. If there was anything like a medium population of 20-50, which is the minimum number that most people think would allow a viable population, why aren't these things being seen more often by people out looking for snow leopard pelts and all the rest of it? There is very little these days that is so remote that you don't get actually appreciable numbers of humans with binoculars out there."

Amos was not involved in the analysis of the hairs but said that, from what he had heard, he was "90% convinced that there is a bear in these regions that has been mistaken for a yeti. The scientific approach is fine. It would have been nice if [Sykes] had been able to get some nuclear DNA and been able to say a bit more."
Yeah, why don't we already have confirmation of this New Bear? There are only about 22 Gobi bears in the world and they all live in Mongolia. It may be the rarest mammal that we know of. Yet there are many specimens, photos and videos of the Gobi bear. Why is there none of this already presented for New Bear?
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Old 18th October 2013, 10:20 AM   #112
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
About Reinhold Messner's encounter with the Yeti in 1986. This is obviously not any bear being described here...
Here is exactly what Messner wrote:
http://ls2content.tlcdelivers.com/co...312203942&upc=
Quote:
...Then, suddenly, silent as a ghost, something large and dark stepped into a space thirty feet ahead among the rhododendron bushes. A yak, I thought, becoming excited at the thought of meeting some Tibetans and getting a hot meal and a place to sleep that evening. But the thing stood still. Then, noiseless and light-footed, it raced across the forest floor, disappearing, reappearing, picking up speed. Neither branches nor ditches slowed its progress. This was not a yak.
The fast-moving silhouette dashed behind a curtain of leaves and branches, only to step out into a clearing some ten yards away for a few seconds. It moved upright. It was as if my own shadow had been projected onto the thicket...

...Making my way through some ash-colored juniper bushes, I suddenly heard an eerie sound--a whistling noise, similar to the warning call mountain goats make. Out of the corner of my eye I saw the outline of an upright figure dart between the trees to the edge of the clearing, where low-growing thickets covered the steep slope. The figure hurried on, silent and hunched forward, disappearing behind a tree only to reappear again against the moonlight. It stopped for a moment and turned to look at me. Again I heard the whistle, more of an angry hiss, and for a heartbeat I saw eyes and teeth. The creature towered menacingly, its face a gray shadow, its body a black outline. Covered with hair, it stood upright on two short legs and had powerful arms that hung down almost to its knees. I guessed it to be over seven feet tall. Its body looked much heavier than that of a man of that size, but it moved with such agility and power toward the edge of the escarpment that I was both startled and relieved. Mostly I was stunned. No human would have been able to run like that in the middle of the night. It stopped again beyond the trees by the low-growing thickets, as if to catch its breath, and stood motionless in the moonlit night without looking back. I was too mesmerized to take my binoculars out of my backpack. The longer I stared at it, the more the figure seemed to change shape, but it was similar to whatever it was I had come across farther down the trail--that much I knew. A heavy stench hung in the air, and the creature's receding calls resounded within me. I heard it plunge into the thicket, saw it rush up the slope on all fours, higher and higher, deeper into the night and into the mountains, until it disappeared and all was still again...
That's how he recalls it but don't forget that it was at night in the middle of nowhere, just below the treeline in the Himalayas, and that he was alone, exausted, almost lost, anxiously searching for his way and thinking about the Yeti. It's coherent with a brown bear encounter considering the context imo.
ETA: Messner thinks he saw a Tibetan Blue Bear.

Last edited by Castro; 18th October 2013 at 10:30 AM.
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Old 18th October 2013, 10:32 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
1: One of the samples was apparently from a "mummified" complete animal, shot 40 years ago by a local hunter. This is nothing to do with a single hair.
Doesn't seem very sporting, to shoot a mummified animal.
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Old 18th October 2013, 10:36 AM   #114
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
As I said.

Nobody has ever seen.
The implicit racism of counting the hunter as "nobody" I'll ignore. What you can't ignore is that DNA is unfalsifiable. It doesn't matter how many times people say "it matches a polar bear therefore it is from a polar bear".....even if this becomes the latest internet meme.......it isn't "A" polar bear it matches, but a 40,000 to 120,000 year old polar bear ancestor. NOT, repeat, NOT a modern polar bear.

So, whatever weaknesses there are in the chain of custody is utterly irrelevant in this respect: you cannot manufacture a hair. DNA is unfakeable. Therefore, these 2 hairs have had to come from an animal. They don't match anything currently known to exist on the planet. Therefore there is (or was 10 years ago), an unknown mammal on the planet.

As the hair and its DNA is unfakeable, the only other explanation that hoax-theorists can possibly have left is that Sykes has faked or utterly mis-interpreted the results. Feel free to make this accusation, which I presume that people haven't to date because of the man's world renown and obvious expertise. But feel free. Only when the paper is published, and the evidence and methodology is testable by others will we be able to examine this claim.

In the meantime, I'll take the good professor's word that he has found something incredible, and delight in the assumption that there is a previously unknown bear at altitude in the Himalayas........far ahead of the convoluted hoax stories fabricated here.

Show me the bear, you say? Well, I say show me the source of those hairs if it isn't from a new-to-science mammal.

Mike
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Old 18th October 2013, 10:59 AM   #115
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
The implicit racism of counting the hunter as "nobody" I'll ignore.
The self righteous indignation implicit in that statement I'll ignore

Quote:
What you can't ignore is that DNA is unfalsifiable. It doesn't matter how many times people say "it matches a polar bear therefore it is from a polar bear".....even if this becomes the latest internet meme.......it isn't "A" polar bear it matches, but a 40,000 to 120,000 year old polar bear ancestor. NOT, repeat, NOT a modern polar bear.
The reliablity of this match is far from established. As I posted far upthread, the half life of DNA is about 520 years. How many times can you destroy half of a sample before you are left with something which you could match to a new and un-deteriorated specimin with any degree of certainty?
Quote:
So, whatever weaknesses there are in the chain of custody is utterly irrelevant in this respect: you cannot manufacture a hair. DNA is unfakeable. Therefore, these 2 hairs have had to come from an animal. They don't match anything currently known to exist on the planet. Therefore there is (or was 10 years ago), an unknown mammal on the planet.
Cewrtainly is seems that ONE of the samples might have some from an unknown species, and that is certainly cause for further investigation, but the other sample which consists of a single hair is far from a "slam dunk". The DNA sample that could potentially be extracted from a single hair would not likely be so robust. I have reservations about that match.

Quote:
As the hair and its DNA is unfakeable, the only other explanation that hoax-theorists can possibly have left is that Sykes has faked or utterly mis-interpreted the results. Feel free to make this accusation, which I presume that people haven't to date because of the man's world renown and obvious expertise. But feel free.
It is still a possibility. Scientists of world renown have been caught in fraud before. I'll allow that it is highly unlikely in this case, but it is still a possibility.
Quote:
Only when the paper is published, and the evidence and methodology is testable by others will we be able to examine this claim.
This I fully agree with.
Quote:
In the meantime, I'll take the good professor's word that he has found something incredible, and delight in the assumption that there is a previously unknown bear at altitude in the Himalayas........far ahead of the convoluted hoax stories fabricated here.
I don't think hoaxing is the only possibility. There are a number of other possibilities I can think of off the top of my head. One would be hyperbolic reporting and quote mining by the writer to make it seem as if the good professor is confidently asserting something which he most certainly is not. Another is that his tests were in some way flawed and his results are as insubstantial as the faster-than-light neutrinos. And there is a very good probability that it might be a combination of those and more.
Quote:
Show me the bear, you say? Well, I say show me the source of those hairs if it isn't from a new-to-science mammal.

Mike
I don't need to see a living bear, but I wonder where these mummified remains are, and if they still exist. It seems a shame that this French mountaineer sat on this for as long as he did. I wish he'd brought them to a lab sooner. I don't doubt the possibility of a previously undiscovered mammal, but I also don't discount the possibility of mistakes and half truths.

So far, the story is "Hair found with DNA which can't be readily matched with any known living species of animal, but it's probably from a bear of some kind, maybe a previously unknown species" which is a great headline all by itself. The Yeti doesn't even enter into the picture except as a hook to entice readership.
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Old 18th October 2013, 11:12 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
.......There are a number of other possibilities I can think of off the top of my head. One would be hyperbolic reporting and quote mining by the writer to make it seem as if the good professor is confidently asserting something which he most certainly is not......
You guys can't see the link I posted in about my second post in this thread which is of a BBC interview with Sykes? I've had this trouble in the past....... He very clearly asserts that he has found two samples for which the only match is to the polar bear ancestor as reported.

Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
.......So far, the story is "Hair found with DNA which can't be readily matched with any known living species of animal, but it's probably from a bear of some kind, maybe a previously unknown species" which is a great headline all by itself.
100%. I am thrilled by the possibility that there is an unknown bear, and I don't understand the negativity on here. There isn't a single person that has come on and said "isn't this potentially wonderful" .....(is there? I may have missed this). Instead, there are endless attempts to find ways in which to rubbish the findings. Are we really all so world weary and negative that a new bear isn't exciting?

Originally Posted by joesixpack View Post
The Yeti doesn't even enter into the picture except as a hook to entice readership.
Who cares? The crypto folks are going to say...."great, there's a new bear, but it isn't yeti". I just say "great, there's a new bear". Yeti can go whistle......

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Old 18th October 2013, 11:19 AM   #117
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yeah, why don't we already have confirmation of this New Bear? There are only about 22 Gobi bears in the world and they all live in Mongolia. It may be the rarest mammal that we know of. Yet there are many specimens, photos and videos of the Gobi bear. Why is there none of this already presented for New Bear?
We should not necessarily expect potential new species to be identified so quickly. The olinguito, a new species of carnivore, was first suspected to exist in about 2003, but have only been confirmed this year.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...ience-animals/

They have been seen by local Andean people for centuries, it just was never suspected until 10 years ago that it was a different animal from the well known "olingo"

"An olinguito misidentified as an olingo even lived in U.S. zoos in the 1960s and 1970s, moving frequently because—not surprisingly—the animal wouldn't breed with olingos, Helgen said"
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Old 18th October 2013, 11:24 AM   #118
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Well, maybe the thread title is the problem. You have "Yeti" in the title, so posters here are reflexively skeptical. Like I said, the real headline is that there may be a previously undiscovered LARGE mammal. If the thread title was "Yeti hunters make a contribution to science,in spite of teir best efforts" or "Cryptozoologists dismayed and disappointed by discovering something real" it may have been less nit-picked.
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Old 18th October 2013, 11:27 AM   #119
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Careful JSP......we're closing in on complete agreement. Can't have that........
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Old 18th October 2013, 11:41 AM   #120
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I'd be less skeptical if the samples had not been supplied by Yeti promoters/believers. Imagine the same scenario but instead the hair samples come from bear biologists working in the region who had set out hair traps to monitor and research the local bears. Boom they get a really oddball sample and it looks like the polar bear ancestor. But they have nothing other than the hair sample. Then they do a press release. I'd be less skeptical of that leading up to the discovery of a New Bear in the Himalayas.
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