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Tags "Bigfoot Files" , bigfoot , Brian Sykes , yeti

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Old 22nd October 2013, 03:40 AM   #281
MikeG
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Originally Posted by Alan Lowey View Post
No, you simply don't understand the bigger picture, which Prof Sykes and I do alike. That single specimen might be dated between 130 and 40kya but that isn't the same thing as all the data available to determine when the species went extinct itself. It's similar to the demise of the woolly mammoth, which has an abundance of finds around this date..
Now you're making stuff up. It hasn't gone extinct.

Thoroughly enjoying the patronising superior tone, BTW, as it adds a certain levity to the proceedings.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 03:49 AM   #282
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Is there a name for the disorder that prevents one from realizing they've been pwned? Mike has just helped me diagnose another case of this condition.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 05:46 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
Is there a name for the disorder that prevents one from realizing they've been pwned? Mike has just helped me diagnose another case of this condition.
I've always thought of it as "Black Knight Syndrome" (think Monty Python).
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Old 22nd October 2013, 06:12 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
I've always thought of it as "Black Knight Syndrome" (think Monty Python).
Brilliant! That's exactly what I'm talking about.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 10:31 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by learner View Post
As usual I am confused. How did Sykes think to compare the DNA of the mysterious beastie to that of a 40k year old polar Bear from up north?
Also, though I think it's been mentioned before, why didn't he compare it with DNA from the local brown bear population? The claim that it's an exact match with a 40,000 year old ancestral bear just doesn't seem credible.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 10:34 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The common name "grizzly bear" is used for (some of) the North American subspecies of brown bear. It's confusing to use that name when you are talking about brown bears in Europe or Asia.
If I'm not mistaken, the grizzly used to be classified (by some zoologists at least) as a separate species (Ursus horribilis) but is now generally regarded as a subspecies of brown bear (Ursus arctos horribilis).
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Old 22nd October 2013, 11:14 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Also, though I think it's been mentioned before, why didn't he compare it with DNA from the local brown bear population? The claim that it's an exact match with a 40,000 year old ancestral bear just doesn't seem credible.
"There are still far more questions than answers when it comes to the significance of Sykes’ bear hairs."

Quote:
To learn more about bear DNA, I got in touch with Gary J. Galbreath, an evolutionary biologist and the associate director of Northwestern University’s Biological Sciences program. Galbreath said that the significance of the 100-percent-finding depends on how long a stretch of DNA Sykes was able to analyze. “There are, for instance, stretches of DNA that are identical among all members of the genus Ursus, and others that are identical between certain species or subspecies,” he told me in an email.

In other words, if Sykes has analyzed one of those stretches, the hairs would indeed match an ancient polar bear. But they might also match any living member of the genus Ursus, such as the bears currently living near the sample sites—the Isabelline grizzly (Ursus arctos isabellinus) and the Tibetan grizzly (Ursus arctos pruinosus). And just for your reference, all the bears in North America are also of the genus Ursus.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 11:32 AM   #288
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There's unofficial claims that the ice age polar bear was the biggest of them all:

Pleistocene Polar bears are bigger


..............
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Polar_bears_are_bigger.jpg (150.7 KB, 7 views)
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Old 22nd October 2013, 11:42 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
Also, though I think it's been mentioned before, why didn't he compare it with DNA from the local brown bear population? ........
He did.

He compared it with all of the local bears, and it didn't match. This is explicit in the programme.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 11:47 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
"There are still far more questions than answers when it comes to the significance of Sykesí bear hairs."
Interesting article, but written before the aurthor had seen the programme, and without any contact with Sykes. A number of the points it raises were covered by the programme.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 12:35 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Interesting article, but written before the aurthor had seen the programme, and without any contact with Sykes. A number of the points it raises were covered by the programme.
It's far more important that we see the report, and see some peer review...

Unfortunately, speculation has been allowed to run rampant, and spectacle has taken precedence...

The idea of announcing a possible new bear by saying he'd found the yeti is entirely to blame, imo.

A terrible idea, and most likely based on sales, unfortunately.

I am liking Mr Sykes less and less...
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?

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Old 22nd October 2013, 12:39 PM   #292
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc9uw...ature=youtu.be

Bigfoot Files: Yeti DNA episode 1
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Old 22nd October 2013, 12:42 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It's far more important that we see the report, and see some peer review...

Unfortunately, speculation has been allowed to run rampant, and spectacle has taken precedence...

The idea of announcing a possible new bear by saying he'd found the yeti is entirely to blame, imo.

A terrible idea, and most likely based on sales, unfortunately.

I am liking Mr Sykes less and less...

If you actually watched the program you'd see that he is an English gentleman and a great ambassador for science. A very likeable man imo.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 12:49 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
It's far more important that we see the report, and see some peer review...

Unfortunately, speculation has been allowed to run rampant, and spectacle has taken precedence...

The idea of announcing a possible new bear by saying he'd found the yeti is entirely to blame, imo.

A terrible idea, and most likely based on sales, unfortunately.

I am liking Mr Sykes less and less...
I dunno, I just don't get this.

A sceptic decries the fact that a sceptical scientist has poured cold water all over the yeti story that has circulated since Shipton. It makes me wonder what you folk actually want. I would have thought that having the nonsense shown up as nonsense would be good enough for most, and that the bonus of finding something interesting in the local bear population should be thrilling.

Clearly we all want to see the paper. Clearly any great depth of conversation is impossible without it. But frankly, I shake my head at some of the bloody-minded negativity on here sometimes. Even if we have nothing more than a better understanding of existing bear genomics as a result of this study I think that is worth getting excited about, and if we actually have a new variant of bear, of some description, well that's the discovery of a life-time, in my view. As I've said before, yeti can go whistle. This isn't about yeti.......the reporter solved that on his own without Sykes.

But jeez, couldn't some of you be a little less ee-ore sometimes? The doom and gloom is enervating.

Last edited by MikeG; 22nd October 2013 at 12:51 PM.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 01:11 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I dunno, I just don't get this.

I would have thought that having the nonsense shown up as nonsense would be good enough for most, and that the bonus of finding something interesting in the local bear population should be thrilling.
That is pretty much where I am at. The result is interesting to me. It still leaves the door open for Yeti, and in fact in Footer circles this is somehow a big win, but honestly thinking that any study can silence any cryptid myth is wishful thinking imo.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 01:24 PM   #296
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The thing about the documentary that they leave out, is that this could just be hair from someone's polar bear lined gloves, or some other way that the DNA arrived in these places.

The question I would ask Sykes, is if he tested a modern polar bear, would it come back as matching the Ancient polar bear? What if he tested a modern himalayan brown bear? Would that match the portion of the DNA that is being used ?
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Old 22nd October 2013, 01:28 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The thing about the documentary that they leave out, is that this could just be hair from someone's polar bear lined gloves, or some other way that the DNA arrived in these places.
No, it couldn't (unless he hashed up his science). It doesn't match modern polar bear. It ONLY matched an ancient polar bear ancestor.

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The question I would ask Sykes, is if he tested a modern polar bear, would it come back as matching the Ancient polar bear? What if he tested a modern himalayan brown bear? Would that match the portion of the DNA that is being used ?
He checked his results against both, as we've covered many times in this thread.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 03:14 PM   #298
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Does anyone have a pic of what an ancient polar bear looks like face on? I'm not having any luck finding one.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 03:24 PM   #299
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^Well if it's an archaic species then the best you're going to be able to find is some artist's rendition of a slightly more primitive-looking polar bear.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 04:42 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
A sceptic decries the fact that a sceptical scientist has poured cold water all over the yeti story that has circulated since Shipton. It makes me wonder what you folk actually want. I would have thought that having the nonsense shown up as nonsense would be good enough for most, and that the bonus of finding something interesting in the local bear population should be thrilling.
I want more science and less showmanship.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 05:37 PM   #301
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Interesting program. Since it is just a tv show with expectations of rating points though, and not a scientific dissertation, we should take it provisionally.

What I think needs to be addressed is the genetic relationship of the known bears of that region. Is there any known bear that would be a close relation to what Sykes is saying is a contemporary form of ancient polar bear? I'm reminded that the puma is now considered a relative of the cheetah, not the lion, and the snow leopard is now considered related to the tiger rather than the leopard based on DNA work of recent years.

I do think the program has it wrong about the Shipton print. Only one print was ever photographed. The print looks doctored to me and not the print of overlapping bear tracks. For instance, the big opposable toe looks like a compass or pocket watch pressed down to form an image on an otherwise indistinguishable print.

Also, it looks like Sykes is not going to investigate the orang pendek; its the almasty after the sasquatch.

An edit: just looked around the web for more news and found that Sykes says the DNA is not closely related to that of the known Himalayan bears. This is getting really interesting.

Last edited by jerrywayne; 22nd October 2013 at 06:19 PM.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 05:44 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by eerok View Post
I want more science and less showmanship.
What, you don't think a random hair mailed to him with a cool back story counts as science?
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Old 22nd October 2013, 06:28 PM   #303
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Ditto that. I'm just not going to get excited about this because Sykes said so. There are many examples of really smart, highly accomplished quacks or really smart, highly accomplished scientists who are simply wrong. (I'm reminded of this every time I have a paper or grant proposal rejected.) Sykes could be either of the above, or he could be really smart, highly accomplished and correct. We just can't know until (if?) there's a paper published on this analysis.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 07:04 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by jerrywayne View Post
Interesting program...

Also, it looks like Sykes is not going to investigate the orang pendek; its the almasty after the sasquatch.

The almasty looks interesting from the Wikipedia entry:

Quote:
Almas is a singular word in Mongolian; the properly formed Turkic plural would be 'almaslar'.[4] As is typical of similar legendary creatures throughout Central Asia, Russia, Pakistan and the Caucasus, the Almas is generally considered to be more akin to "wild people" in appearance and habits than to apes (in contrast to the Yeti of the Himalayas).

Almases are typically described as human-like bipedal animals, between five and six and a half feet tall, their bodies covered with reddish-brown hair, with anthropomorphic facial features..

This is what I was talking about with the Bhutan expedition in 1997 which retrieved one of Prof Sykes' hairs. The mountain guide said there were two types of 'yeti'.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 07:32 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by Alan Lowey View Post
This is what I was talking about with the Bhutan expedition in 1997 which retrieved one of Prof Sykes' hairs. The mountain guide said there were two types of 'yeti'.
Yes, yes. One type of yeti is a bear, and the other is . . . a bear.


Good show!
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Old 22nd October 2013, 08:42 PM   #306
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
What, you don't think a random hair mailed to him with a cool back story counts as science?
It's 100% bonyfied bigfoot science... which is of course the problem.

Is there anyone here who's not wondering what the heck Sykes is playing at?
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Old 22nd October 2013, 09:10 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by The Shrike View Post
I'm just not going to get excited about this because Sykes said so.
That's exactly right, but the anti-science crowd loves to set up what they present as an unimpeachable expert on which to hang all their appeals to authority. (Look how much play they've got out of Meldrum.) I don't know if Sykes walked into this unwittingly or became loose enough in the head to think that something good would come of it, but it just seems silly to approach it the way he has.

There's nothing wrong with investigating bigfoot evidence objectively, but there is something wrong with using one's reputation as a scientist to cash in on bigfoot gullibility.

Maybe there's a punchline, though, and Sykes will thoroughly excoriate the bigfoot "knowers" for their failings and conceits with respect to physical evidence. We'll have to wait and see how it all plays out.

Bottom line: I don't think that any reasonable person would expect any evidence from Sykes or anyone else that would be sufficient to establish the existence of bigfoot. I know that I don't. A living specimen would be something, but anything else would pretty much be nothing.
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Old 22nd October 2013, 09:21 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
No, it couldn't (unless he hashed up his science). It doesn't match modern polar bear. It ONLY matched an ancient polar bear ancestor.



He checked his results against both, as we've covered many times in this thread.

It's only an mtDNA match...as we've covered many times in this thread.

Doesn't it have to match some modern bears?

Presumably, polar bear gloves or skins that were in the Himalayas 40 years ago, would have been brought in from far away. And who knows their actual age?
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 22nd October 2013, 09:56 PM   #309
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Originally Posted by Jodie View Post
Does anyone have a pic of what an ancient polar bear looks like face on? I'm not having any luck finding one.
Try watching old re-runs of the Flintstones.
Syke's cartoonish behaviour fits in quite well.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 04:03 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
Yes, yes. One type of yeti is a bear, and the other is . . . a bear.

This is a statement of ignorance hidden behind humor. The 1997 Bhutan documentary clearly showed the mountain guide describing two very different entities. Two types of unknown bear wouldn't have fitted his descriptions at all. Or the numerous eyewitness accounts for that matter.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 04:08 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Alan Lowey View Post
This is a statement of ignorance hidden behind humor. The 1997 Bhutan documentary clearly showed the mountain guide describing two very different entities. Two types of unknown bear wouldn't have fitted his descriptions at all. Or the numerous eyewitness accounts for that matter.
And of course the guide was not mistaken or lying.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 04:31 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by Alan Lowey View Post
This is a statement of ignorance hidden behind humor. The 1997 Bhutan documentary clearly showed the mountain guide describing two very different entities. Two types of unknown bear wouldn't have fitted his descriptions at all. Or the numerous eyewitness accounts for that matter.
No, it's a statement of knowledge of how humans are prone to credulity and all sorts of cognitive errors/biases.

Like giant dragonfly belief as one example.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 04:57 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by Robrob View Post
What, you don't think a random hair mailed to him with a cool back story counts as science?
Yes, when they called for DNA submissions, I said that the DNA with the best accompanying story would be selected for testing.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 05:34 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by Resume View Post
No, it's a statement of knowledge of how humans are prone to credulity and all sorts of cognitive errors/biases.

Like giant dragonfly belief as one example.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 06:20 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
I am intentionally not watching the program.

I am waiting for the report.
I watched it, it cleared up the confusion about the samples and their claimed provenance to me. For the rest, apart from the hypothesis that some brown bears living in the Himalayas might have a common ancestor with an ancient bear from the Norwegian archipelago of Svalbard, there's not much more to say for the time being imo. I guess that the paper (if published) will bring more informations.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 07:13 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
I watched it, it cleared up the confusion about the samples and their claimed provenance to me. For the rest, apart from the hypothesis that some brown bears living in the Himalayas might have a common ancestor with an ancient bear from the Norwegian archipelago of Svalbard, there's not much more to say for the time being imo. I guess that the paper (if published) will bring more informations.
Come to think of it, I have very little interest in Himalayan bear genetics.

If people can't tell a bear from bigfoot or yeti, well, that's certainly not news.
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2 prints, same midtarsal crock..., I mean break?
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Old 23rd October 2013, 07:36 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by Castro View Post
I watched it, it cleared up the confusion about the samples and their claimed provenance to me. For the rest, apart from the hypothesis that some brown bears living in the Himalayas might have a common ancestor with an ancient bear from the Norwegian archipelago of Svalbard, there's not much more to say for the time being imo.
One interesting part of the documentary was that they got a tame grizzly bear to walk around, and showed how its hind and front feet often go in the same place on the ground, making a combination track that looks like a Bigfoot track.
I wonder what Meldrum makes of the idea of bigfoot tracks (when they aren't just hoaxes) being bear tracks overlapping this way.
I'm a bigfoot hopeful and I don't feel bad about Sykes' results, I think it's very interesting and goes a long way to explain evidence.
Sykes also said that the reported yeti behavior is not bear behavior, so this new kind of bear might have unusual behavior. He said polar bears hunt people, they are very aggressive unlike the bears that may root through your garbage at night - and that this might partly explain the fear people have of the yeti.
Hybrid species are not necessarily a mixture of the traits of their parents - the mixture of genes can produce unpredictable results. So it's also possible that there are weird but rare polar/brown bear hybrids.
Sykes said that polar bears and brown bears are known to hybridize where their ranges overlap.
The documentary got zapped on Youtube. Too bad, it was highly worth watching.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 07:49 AM   #318
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Polar Bears don't live near the Himalayas. Their ranges do not overlap by like 6000 miles.
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Old 23rd October 2013, 08:02 AM   #319
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The overlapping bear prints looked nothing like the Shipton prints, imo. Not sure how Mark Evans was so convinced by the result
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Old 23rd October 2013, 08:06 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The overlapping bear prints looked nothing like the Shipton prints, imo. Not sure how Mark Evans was so convinced by the result

Yah, good point. Thought the same myself.
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