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Old 25th October 2013, 07:32 AM   #1
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The Nazification of Freemmanism

Patrick, the World Freeman Society site administrator and chief propagandist, has done more than take a page from Menard's "ask questions" playbook. He has adopted the Nazi propaganda practice of demonizing groups prior to visiting violence upon that group. As I have point out before this demonization to violence cycle is being practiced by freemanary as we speak.

Our resident freeman apologists may again dismisses the facts, but the pattern is clear.

Patrick the Propagandist attempts to tell gullible freemen that Nazi philosophy didn't really turn anti-Semitic until the mid 1930's when Hitler decided to exterminate the Jewish people.

In a stunning show of historical ignorance Patrick dismisses the 1925 publication of Mein Kampf which shows Hitler's ambitions for creating a New Order in which the destruction of the weak and sick provides space and purity for the strong.

Any observant individual studying Nazi propaganda can see that years of dehumanizing and demonizing Jews prepared the German public for the "final solution".

In a irony that can't escape readers the freeman cult has, for years, similarly dehumanized Canadian authority figures. Now properly conditioned that these authority figures are subhuman, impressionable freemen have begun a campaign of paper terrorism, theft and violence against judges, lawyers, cops, teachers, bankers, land lords and business owners.
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Old 25th October 2013, 09:07 AM   #2
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Fortunately the "final solution" will be of the freemen, not the judges and authority figures.
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Old 25th October 2013, 09:09 AM   #3
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Given the inability of most of the members of the Freemen movement to understand basic concepts of law, and their ability to carry out huge acts of self-deception is it surprising that proponents of this "philosophy" are also unable to take a few minutes and learn about actual history, etc.

The potential has always been here in Canada for such a shift, especially with the history of such early figures in the movement like Dean Clifford and E. Warman.

There has been a lot more scrutiny of persons espousing the FMOTL belief system in the last few months, and in the last several days most of the major Canadian newspapers have been carrying a story on the briefings being done with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police on the matter - mirroring the analysis of our US neighbours. Culturally, Canada and the US are similar but with enough differences that the Canadian movement MAY not be as violent, but our police are at least being prepared for what has gone on south of the border and what might be expected up here. I would be very surprised if LEO up here weren't monitoring sites like WFS already and are aware of the shift.
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Old 25th October 2013, 09:14 AM   #4
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Godwined in the OP. Always impressive.
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Old 25th October 2013, 09:16 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
Given the inability of most of the members of the Freemen movement to understand basic concepts of law, and their ability to carry out huge acts of self-deception is it surprising that proponents of this "philosophy" are also unable to take a few minutes and learn about actual history, etc.

The potential has always been here in Canada for such a shift, especially with the history of such early figures in the movement like Dean Clifford and E. Warman.

There has been a lot more scrutiny of persons espousing the FMOTL belief system in the last few months, and in the last several days most of the major Canadian newspapers have been carrying a story on the briefings being done with the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police on the matter - mirroring the analysis of our US neighbours. Culturally, Canada and the US are similar but with enough differences that the Canadian movement MAY not be as violent, but our police are at least being prepared for what has gone on south of the border and what might be expected up here. I would be very surprised if LEO up here weren't monitoring sites like WFS already and are aware of the shift.
Canadian article here:

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Inte...705/story.html

Quote:
OTTAWA - Training for frontline officers and better information sharing between police and government agencies can help protect law enforcement officials from potentially aggressive "sovereign citizens," says a newly declassified briefing to Canadian police chiefs.


The presentation, prepared for a meeting of the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police, calls the libertarian-inspired philosophy "a growing concern" that poses a "threat to officer and public safety."


Enforcement agencies are becoming increasingly wary of sovereign citizens, members of the Freeman-on-the-Land movement and other like-minded people who resist police and government authority.
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Old 25th October 2013, 09:42 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Godwined in the OP. Always impressive.
I don't think this qualifies as a Godwin. This group is openly and publicly embracing Hitler and Nazi Germany, and is promoting holocaust denial and other anti-semitic conspiracy theories.
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Old 25th October 2013, 10:10 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by D'rok View Post
I don't think this qualifies as a Godwin. This group is openly and publicly embracing Hitler and Nazi Germany, and is promoting holocaust denial and other anti-semitic conspiracy theories.


And when you consider the origins of the US Sovereign Citizen movement, that the Freemen copied wholesale, it's not so much a Godwin as it is a Homecoming.
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Old 25th October 2013, 10:49 AM   #8
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I'm not up on events in Canada, but US FMOTL and similar mindset groups absolutely have some cross over w/ Neo/Skin/KKK outfits.
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Old 25th October 2013, 11:33 AM   #9
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Does anyone know where they get the numbers for 'tens of thousands' of freemen in Canada. They certainly aren't hanging around the website!

As the drift towards nazism is very real should this thread be in Polictics?
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Old 25th October 2013, 12:10 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by BangBang View Post
Does anyone know where they get the numbers for 'tens of thousands' of freemen in Canada. They certainly aren't hanging around the website!

As the drift towards nazism is very real should this thread be in Polictics?


I think most legitimate sources that quote that number are basing it on a projection of Canada's population vs. the US. We have about 10% the population, so we expect to have about 10% of the number of US nutbags. I don't think there's been a real survey of the number of adherents in Canada.

The FoTLs don't choose to refute this claim, as it inflates their apparent influence, which can only help their marketing plan. Just another example of their honourable conduct, you see.
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Old 25th October 2013, 12:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Godwined in the OP. Always impressive.
Heh - this is a fallacists fallacy

This thread is a clear cut exception to [Godwin's Law].

Nazi apologists exclude themselves from Godwinning by definition, because it's their chosen topic:

Quote:
The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics, or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, if that was the explicit topic of conversation, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect committing the fallacist's fallacy.
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Old 25th October 2013, 12:33 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Patrick the Propagandist attempts to tell gullible freemen that Nazi philosophy didn't really turn anti-Semitic until the mid 1930's when Hitler decided to exterminate the Jewish people.
Classic minimizing excuse. Almost certain to segue into a No True Scottsman fallacy.
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Old 25th October 2013, 03:27 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Patrick, the World Freeman Society site administrator and chief propagandist, has done more than take a page from Menard's "ask questions" playbook. He has adopted the Nazi propaganda practice of demonizing groups prior to visiting violence upon that group. As I have point out before this demonization to violence cycle is being practiced by freemanary as we speak.

Our resident freeman apologists may again dismisses the facts, but the pattern is clear.

Patrick the Propagandist attempts to tell gullible freemen that Nazi philosophy didn't really turn anti-Semitic until the mid 1930's when Hitler decided to exterminate the Jewish people.

In a stunning show of historical ignorance Patrick dismisses the 1925 publication of Mein Kampf which shows Hitler's ambitions for creating a New Order in which the destruction of the weak and sick provides space and purity for the strong.
Any observant individual studying Nazi propaganda can see that years of dehumanizing and demonizing Jews prepared the German public for the "final solution".

In a irony that can't escape readers the freeman cult has, for years, similarly dehumanized Canadian authority figures. Now properly conditioned that these authority figures are subhuman, impressionable freemen have begun a campaign of paper terrorism, theft and violence against judges, lawyers, cops, teachers, bankers, land lords and business owners.
And to the bolded - a strong point of republickers.
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Old 25th October 2013, 03:30 PM   #14
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I thinks it be time to dethrone and behead those "sovereigns".
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Old 25th October 2013, 04:40 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by BangBang View Post
As the drift towards nazism is very real should this thread be in Polictics?
Wouldn't that provide some form of legitimacy to freeman-ism?

Has Director Menard lost control of his site administrator, or is he directing the content be made available or not removed?

And just for continuity, can the link to the content in question be re-posted here?
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Old 25th October 2013, 05:36 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by LordEd View Post
Wouldn't that provide some form of legitimacy to freeman-ism?

Has Director Menard lost control of his site administrator, or is he directing the content be made available or not removed?

And just for continuity, can the link to the content in question be re-posted here?
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2129
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2246
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Old 25th October 2013, 09:13 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by LordEd View Post
Has Director Menard lost control of his site administrator, or is he directing the content be made available or not removed?
It's pretty hard to lead from the couch.

Poster Thinker 2 on the WFS forum indicates, based on emails between he and Menard, that the latter is claiming he has no authority to do anything about the pro-nazi propaganda being posted at the web site.

Of course the "I-ain't-got-no-contract" dodge at one time didn't stop Menard from ordering WFS forum posters censored and banned. Remember, Bobby is the same guy who claimed that by shear force of will he managed force the guy he says stole his computer to do several hours of community service.

And, "contract" or no there is nothing to stop Menard from speaking out about the nazification of his movement.

The sad situation makes one wonder what Menard would have done about evil doers showing up at freeman valley.
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Old 26th October 2013, 05:11 AM   #18
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"Unbelievable! Once again the RANDIOTS have out done themselves with the irony. According to them, the fact that ONE member of the WFS had posted a video titled "the Greatest Story Never Told" an alternative story of Hitler, which I can't comment on 'cause I haven't watched it yet, we are all now being Nazified. Arayder, stated in his new thread "He has adopted the Nazi propaganda practice of de...See more"- Bobby's Facebook

-----------

The fact is, freemen, the "ONE" member is the site administrator. The truth is the endorsement of Nazism takes place in several videos and on at least one thread of discussion on the WFS forum where other WFS members join the site administrator in his dismissal of Nazi evil.

The truth is your guru has been asked by WFS members to do something about the embarrassing videos and he's done nothing, above saying, days later, he hasn't even bothered to watch the videos.

Freemen, is your guru not paying attention?

Is silence Menard's consent?
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Old 26th October 2013, 03:46 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Freeman Rob Menard
...an alternative story of Hitler,
I believe the word is spelled "counter-factual."
Of course, that word pretty much applies to everything in Freemanism and its offshoots, so I don't expect it to be used correctly by the likes of Freeman Rob Menard.

Eight million dollars, Rob. Go get it, Officer Menard, go get it.
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Old 26th October 2013, 04:14 PM   #20
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After yet again skimming through the WSS-site I must conclude that the site is not so much nazi as anti-bank, anti-government, general doom and gloom, and a general conspiracy mindset. I don’t think people are as much pro-nazi as anti-tptb. That and completely clueless, the nazi-**** got a number of likes after all. That said it is a very disturbing site with an immense amount of hate everywhere.

That they think they are fighting for freedom against an increasingly opressive state and the movements attractiveness to unstable individuals is worrying. But I still think the movement is on it's last hurrah. A few harsh sentences and I predict it will no longer be funny to play the freeman game. I am mainly worried that an officer overreact and kills one of the freeman when they resist arrest. That would give the freemen a martyr to kling too.

Edited by jhunter1163:  Edited to completely mask profanity. Do not attempt to bypass the autocensor.

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Old 26th October 2013, 05:21 PM   #21
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[quote=arayder;9581466]Patrick, the World Freeman Society site administrator and chief propagandist, has done more than take a page from Menard's "ask questions" playbook. He has adopted the Nazi (Bush junior) propaganda practice of demonizing groups prior to visiting violence upon that group.
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Old 26th October 2013, 07:20 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by hgus View Post
. . .That and completely clueless, the nazi-**** got a number of likes after all. That said it is a very disturbing site with an immense amount of hate everywhere. . .
The only thing Bobby "all you need is love" Menard has to do is openly denounce the pro-nazi posts on the WFS web site, publicly implore the site administrator to take the posts down, and call for the rest of the freeman cult to reject nazism.

So far, days after the nazi postings showed up on his WFS web site Menard has done nothing!

By Menard's own standards, his silence and inaction is consent to the nazification of freemanism!
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Old 26th October 2013, 07:27 PM   #23
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Don't bring childish American politics into this. It's boring for the other 99% of the worlds population.
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Old 26th October 2013, 07:33 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
The only thing Bobby "all you need is love" Menard has to do is openly denounce the pro-nazi posts on the WFS web site, publicly implore the site administrator to take the posts down, and call for the rest of the freeman cult to reject nazism.

So far, days after the nazi postings showed up on his WFS web site Menard has done nothing!

By Menard's own standards, his silence and inaction is consent to the nazification of freemanism!
Bobby most likely can't remember his account details to even log in.
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Old 26th October 2013, 07:51 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Don't bring childish American politics into this. It's boring for the other 99% of the worlds population.
Boring for the bulk of the American population also.
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Old 26th October 2013, 10:56 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jakesteele View Post
{QUOTE=arayder;9581466}Patrick, the World Freeman Society site administrator and chief propagandist, has done more than take a page from Menard's "ask questions" playbook. He has adopted the Nazi (Bush junior) propaganda practice of demonizing groups prior to visiting violence upon that group.
I dislike Dubya as much as about anyone; that said you might want to proofread a bit more when you lob in an off topic rant line.

Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Don't bring childish American politics into this. It's boring for the other 99% of the worlds population.
Understandable.

Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Boring for the bulk of the American population also.
Plus One.
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Old 27th October 2013, 12:15 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by BazBear View Post
I dislike Dubya as much as about anyone; that said you might want to proofread a bit more when you lob in an off topic rant line.



Understandable.



Plus One.
Agreed on all counts.

Plus, I am pretty sure that the "propaganda practice of demonizing groups prior to visiting violence upon that group" predates Hitler (and all American presidents since Hitler) by hundreds if not thousands of years.

............................
ETA:
In fact, at this point, I am not yet convinced that written language was not invented for the primary purpose of spreading demonizing propaganda. "I wish there were some way to let even more people know how inhuman that tribe on the other side of the river is - maybe we could make marks on stones or clay tablets or something."
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Old 27th October 2013, 06:27 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
Bobby most likely can't remember his account details to even log in.
Now, days after the pro-nazi posts and YouTubes on his web site Menard has still not denounced the material.

In this case, silence is consent!

Last edited by arayder; 27th October 2013 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 27th October 2013, 10:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
Now, days after the pro-nazi posts and YouTubes on his web site Menard has still not denounced the material.

In this case, silence is consent!
Nay, silence is contract !

I know that because I've been reading up on fee schedules.
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Old 28th October 2013, 06:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Ladewig View Post
Nay, silence is contract !

I know that because I've been reading up on fee schedules.
Twenty days of silence.

-------------------

Dope Clock update:

It has been 20 days since the posting of pro-nazi anti-Semitic propaganda on the World Freeman Society web site. Since that time Robert Menard has failed to denounce the materials and call for their removal from his web site.
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Old 28th October 2013, 07:26 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by arayder View Post
It has been 20 days since the posting of pro-nazi anti-Semitic propaganda on the World Freeman Society web site. Since that time Robert Menard has failed to denounce the materials and call for their removal from his web site. [/size]
And he can't. Just like the "corrupt governments", politician Menard can not go and outright denounce the pro-nazi portion of his constituents. He must try to keep a neutral position on it, despite his critics calling him out on it.

Basically he's sold out his beliefs for a few "votes" of popularity.
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Old 28th October 2013, 07:39 AM   #32
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Ah, the dope clock. A perpetual reminder of Menard's impotence. I missed it.
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Old 28th October 2013, 02:58 PM   #33
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It's not surprising. A great many people on the extreme fringes go back and forth between anarchism and totalarian beliefs, as long as both are violently "anti establishment" enough.
If you read about the early days of the Nazi Movement in Germany, there was a definent anarchitst streak to it..particulary from the Ernst Rohm wing of the party.
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Old 28th October 2013, 03:07 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
And to the bolded - a strong point of republickers.
Save it for the politics forum, please.

Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
I thinks it be time to dethrone and behead those "sovereigns".
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Old 28th October 2013, 04:42 PM   #35
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The WFS did a facebook update to clear up an important misconception:
Quote:
Some people have claimed that the Freeman Movement has ruined their lives.
I am here to inform you that this is Not possible. And anyone claiming so is simply not truthful.

The reason is, that the Freeman Society has never claims to govern people or act for them, the WFS simply offers education for people to live in peace and take responsibility and control of their own freedom, their own lives and their own actions. It is the individuals responsibility to be properly informed and act peacefully.

The WFS does not act for people, they educate people to be able to act for themselves. The World Freeman Society assumes no responsibility for the actions of individual people who claim to be Freemen.
Now that they've proven they would like to make their intentions known and clear, we can rest assured that if they were in fact not supporting Nazi philosophies, we would have been told. After all, their "director" is aware of the allegations.
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Old 28th October 2013, 05:41 PM   #36
Horatius
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Quote:
The WFS does not act for people, they educate people to be able to act for themselves. The World Freeman Society assumes no responsibility for the actions of individual people who claim to be Freemen.

This reminds me of a bit from National Lampoon's parody of the novel Dune.

The part where Paul realizes he should go into Religion as his main business because, as he tells his mother, "The customer blames himself if the product doesn't work as advertised."

Congrats, Menard, your stance is exactly the same as that of a character in a parody novel.
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Old 28th October 2013, 07:05 PM   #37
arayder
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The simple question for Robert Menard is whether he is responsible for allowing the hateful, anti-Semetic materials posted on his web site to remain there.

Yes, or no, Bobby.
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Old 28th October 2013, 08:32 PM   #38
Ladewig
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Some people have claimed that the Freeman Movement has ruined their lives.
I am here to inform you that this is Not possible. And anyone claiming so is simply not truthful.
Does Freemanism use a definition of ruining lives that is somehow different from the definition used by rational people?

I ask because most people would define going to jail for contempt during a misdemeanor trial as an important step on the path to having one's life ruined.

....................
the WFS simply offers education for people
No. Not hardly, Mr. Freeman. Freemanism is about uneducating people. Educated people know that a birth certificate is not worth $8,000,000 - Freemen believe it is worth millions of dollars.

Educated people know that a name spelled in caps and the same name not spelled in caps both refer to the same entity - Freemen believe there is a world of difference.

Educated people know that being arrested and appearing before a judge on a charge of not having a license plate on one's car has nothing to do with Admiralty Law - Freemen believe that it does.

................
And once again, it comes back to childhood games and taunts.
And anyone claiming [Freemanism ruined his life] is simply not truthful.
"I know you are, but what am I?"

..................
As for the truthfulness of Freemen in general, the only truthful quote I can find attributed to Freeman Menard is "if you end up in jail, then don't look to me - you are on your own."
.
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Last edited by Ladewig; 28th October 2013 at 10:18 PM.
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Old 28th October 2013, 08:50 PM   #39
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The writing is by "Xander Singler", but is re-posted by the WFS page administrator.
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Old 28th October 2013, 10:19 PM   #40
Ladewig
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Originally Posted by LordEd View Post
The writing is by "Xander Singler", but is re-posted by the WFS page administrator.
Thanks, I edited my post.
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