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Tags Russia-Ukraine relations , Ukraine incidents , Ukraine issues

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Old 2nd December 2013, 04:50 AM   #1
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Ukraine erupts in riots and general strike.

Things seemed to be going peachy with the EU negotiations. Ukrainian leaders boasted that they could sell Russian gas to Europe cheaper than the Russians.

But Putin put his boot down. Take the EU carrot, get the Russian stick. So the Ukrainian leaders backed out. Now people are furious and demanding early elections. The Ukrainian economy is in the doldrums and the EU is a prestigious club to belong too.

Russia has a long history of brutality with Ukraine. Like when the communists deliberately engineered a famine-genocide. People resorted to cannibalism. They remember that stuff.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25173719
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Old 2nd December 2013, 05:37 AM   #2
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Ukraine has a problem in the form of a substantial Russian minority in the east and south. A very large percentage of those people would prefer a union with Russia or Russia-serving Ukraine. It's an offshoot of Soviet colonialism, which offers no good solutions. I hope for the best, but fear the worst.

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Old 2nd December 2013, 07:01 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Ukraine has a problem in the form of a substantial Russian minority in the east and south. A very large percentage of those people would prefer a union with Russia or Russia-serving Ukraine. It's an offshoot of Soviet colonialism, which offers no good solutions. I hope for the best, but fear the worst.

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Historically the Russians have seen the Ukraine as their backyard and still do, which will make it difficult for them to accept it as a member of the EU, consequentley they will do everything possible to prevent the Ukraine joining the EU.
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Old 2nd December 2013, 07:10 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
But Putin put his boot down. Take the EU carrot, get the Russian stick. So the Ukrainian leaders backed out
I'm sure the bribes laundered through the limited liability partnerships nominally based on Cardiff of all places had nothing to do with it.
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Old 2nd December 2013, 06:18 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Things seemed to be going peachy with the EU negotiations. Ukrainian leaders boasted that they could sell Russian gas to Europe cheaper than the Russians.

But Putin put his boot down. Take the EU carrot, get the Russian stick. So the Ukrainian leaders backed out. Now people are furious and demanding early elections. The Ukrainian economy is in the doldrums and the EU is a prestigious club to belong too.

Russia has a long history of brutality with Ukraine. Like when the communists deliberately engineered a famine-genocide. People resorted to cannibalism. They remember that stuff.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25173719
The capitalist czar regime also brutally persecuted and suppressed the cossacks. Your point? Russia sucks no matter what regime gets in power. Stop amounting this to communism. This is a cultural problem for Russia.

From a Russian prospective I can see why they don't want the EU and NATO in their backyard. That would be a very stupid move. Plus Ukraine is very split over EU/Russia. The best thing that could happen to Ukraine is that Russia has a massive shift in political power. Which won't happen.
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Old 2nd December 2013, 11:17 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
Stop amounting this to communism.
I didn't but if you wanna go there, the Tsars were small-fry compared to what the communists did.
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Old 3rd December 2013, 01:21 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
I didn't but if you wanna go there, the Tsars were small-fry compared to what the communists did.
The Czars also had Renaissance technology. I'm sure if they had machine guns, tanks, and armored equipment that they would've killed just as many people. Point being that Russia manages to kill off tens of millions of its citizens every century. It's something endemic to their culture.
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Old 3rd December 2013, 02:17 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
The Czars also had Renaissance technology. I'm sure if they had machine guns, tanks, and armored equipment that they would've killed just as many people. Point being that Russia manages to kill off tens of millions of its citizens every century. It's something endemic to their culture.
How much technology do you need to starve people?
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Old 3rd December 2013, 06:11 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
How much technology do you need to starve people?
He didn't take away the tractors used to plow the land?
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Old 5th December 2013, 04:20 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
The capitalist czar regime also brutally persecuted and suppressed the cossacks. Your point? Russia sucks no matter what regime gets in power. Stop amounting this to communism. This is a cultural problem for Russia.
That's very true. Communists were like they were to a considerable extent because they came to power in Russia. There is a bit of a cause and effect question here obviously, because such people couldn't and didn't come to power almost anywhere else in Europe, barring extreme circumstances (major war).

Quote:
From a Russian prospective I can see why they don't want the EU and NATO in their backyard. That would be a very stupid move. Plus Ukraine is very split over EU/Russia. The best thing that could happen to Ukraine is that Russia has a massive shift in political power. Which won't happen.
Russia has reverted it's economic system to something similar to what it was before the Revolution, exporting mostly comodities. They still have some military and space technology, but they are quite far from cutting edge. They have little else to offer. They know this, and they know very well they can't attract countries into their sphere, so they're doing all they can to keep those that remain. They're just staving off the inevitable, at Ukraine's expense in this case.

I hope Ukrainians will be smart enough to see Russia is on the loosing side of history again. Who knows, maybe a shift away from Russia would herald change in Russia as well, empower the opposition and whatnot.

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Old 5th December 2013, 06:02 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
I didn't but if you wanna go there, the Tsars were small-fry compared to what the communists did.
So how did life expectancies actually end up increasing under the communists? Even Stalin couldn't kill people fast enough to make up for improvements elsewhere.

From a purely objective viewpoint its really rather impressive how nasty the Tsars were.
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Old 8th December 2013, 10:53 AM   #12
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Here are two articles about the German influence on those developments. The first takes a look at the whole opposition movement with focus on the ultra-right neo-nazi elements.

Originally Posted by German Foreign Policy
[...] To gain influence in the country, Germany has for years been supporting the "pro-European" alliance in the Ukraine. The alliance includes not only conservative parties, but also forces from the extreme right - because of their strength, particularly in western Ukraine, where a cult around former Nazi collaborators is manifesting itself. The All-Ukrainian Union "Svoboda" party is particularly embedded in the national-chauvinist milieu, under the influence of this cult. Over the past few days, the party's leader has called for a "revolution" in Kiev. [...]

Those groups aren't openly supported, of course, but will also profit from the vast amount of money the Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung and others let flow to support this "revolution", organizing busses, propaganda material etc. Berlin's man in the Ukraine is Vitali Klitschko, as this May 2012 article describes in detail.

Originally Posted by German Foreign Policy
[...] According to the internet portal of the CDU politician, Werner Jostmeier (from North Rhine-Westphalia) "the Konrad Adenauer Foundation has assigned" the prominent professional Ukrainian boxer, Vitali Klitschko, the task of "helping to organize and establish a Christian conservative party in the Ukraine."[1] Jostmeier, who, for many years, has been handling the question of the Ukraine - particularly as chair of the German delegation to the EU "Committee of the Regions" - considers that Klitschko "takes his position as leader of the party (...) very seriously." He wishes him "continued success," and hopes he will become "a political heavyweight" in the Ukraine. [...]

Klitschko has called for "over a million people" to come to the protests today, which must have failed miserably as DER SPIEGEL speaks of 200 thousand, which means it may have been a fourth of that. The same article (German) also says that Klitschko isn't deemed fit yet for his task and will need some further training, rethorically and politically. Seems that was it for this time.

Found an interesting pic on twitter, btw, from Dec 1. Go to any "western" mass demonstration and try to find a scene like that.

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Old 8th December 2013, 11:23 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
From a purely objective viewpoint its really rather impressive how nasty the Tsars were.
That they were -- and backwards and incompetent too. Yet, as far as the oppressive machinery is concerned, they really were small potatoes. The Cheka only took a few months to reach the same body count as the Okhrana had in all of its 50+ years of existence.
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Old 8th December 2013, 12:02 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
That they were -- and backwards and incompetent too. Yet, as far as the oppressive machinery is concerned, they really were small potatoes. The Cheka only took a few months to reach the same body count as the Okhrana had in all of its 50+ years of existence.
They lacked the same machinery timhau. If they had the same level of technology in the 1800s there would've been just as much dead.
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Old 8th December 2013, 01:13 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
They lacked the same machinery timhau. If they had the same level of technology in the 1800s there would've been just as much dead.
What machinery, to be exact? What hi-tech gadgets did the Cheka use that the Okhrana didn't have? We're talking about an organization that existed from the 1860s right up to 1917. By early 1918, the October revolution body count had surpassed that of the entire Okhrana history.

The point isn't that the Okhrana was somehow a benign organization, it wasn't. It's just that for all its flaws, it never practiced outright terror the way Lenin and his comrades did.
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Old 8th December 2013, 05:31 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by timhau View Post
What machinery, to be exact? What hi-tech gadgets did the Cheka use that the Okhrana didn't have? We're talking about an organization that existed from the 1860s right up to 1917. By early 1918, the October revolution body count had surpassed that of the entire Okhrana history.

The point isn't that the Okhrana was somehow a benign organization, it wasn't. It's just that for all its flaws, it never practiced outright terror the way Lenin and his comrades did.

You've made a very fair point in the highlighted, I agree.
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Old 8th December 2013, 08:19 PM   #17
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Well, the mob in Ukraine certainly voted on their view of Lenin today.
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Old 8th December 2013, 09:45 PM   #18
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I saw that statue over the summer, and thought, "I'm a bit surprised that that's still there..."
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Old 8th December 2013, 11:25 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
I saw that statue over the summer, and thought, "I'm a bit surprised that that's still there..."
I've been to Crimea in 2005, and Lenin statues were abundant. All in lovely, clean city squares, usually the nicest parts of towns. Things are probably still like that down there.
One was reaching his hand out to the sea initially, but there was a McDonalds' in the way by then

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Old 9th December 2013, 12:41 AM   #20
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Genocide doesn't require some great leap in advanced technology. The Cambodian communists butchered ten percent of the population with machetes and sledgehammers.
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Old 9th December 2013, 01:22 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
Genocide doesn't require some great leap in advanced technology. The Cambodian communists butchered ten percent of the population with machetes and sledgehammers.
The actual method of killing is largely irrelevant. Its the kind of problem that you can throw manpower at to solve.

Its the logistics and communications that present a challenge. Sure you can send out a message on horseback to kill all of ethnic group X but that takes time and you risk losing horses to be people who unaccountably don't want to kill their next door neighbours. Radio is something of a game-changer in that respect. As a result genocides prior to that time tended to be farmers vs nomadic peoples since you don't need to tell farmers to kill nomadic people just just need to fail to tell them not to.
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Old 9th December 2013, 12:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I've been to Crimea in 2005, and Lenin statues were abundant. All in lovely, clean city squares, usually the nicest parts of towns. Things are probably still like that down there.
Crimea is much more russophilic than Kyiv or western Ukraine. There were very few Lenins in Kyiv.

And now there's at least one less.
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Old 9th December 2013, 06:48 PM   #23
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It has always been Russia's plan to reintegrate Ukraine and Belarus. In all honesty, Russia's reintegration of these two countries is perhaps the best of all nations involved. Nothing constructive can come of western incursions on Russian borders, pretty sure it will result in the annihilation of humanity.
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:26 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
Crimea is much more russophilic than Kyiv or western Ukraine. There were very few Lenins in Kyiv.

And now there's at least one less.
Not so much Russophilic as outright Russian. They colonized the area with Russians when the Crimean Tatars "left for Siberia on their own free will" if you know what I mean.
That said, there weren't any Lenin statues in Lviv either.

It's one of the problems Ukraine has - a substantial Russian minority, who apparently favors servitude to Russia by a substantial margin. Add in a few billion carrots from Kremlin, plus it's hard stick, and you have yourself a major problem.

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Old 10th December 2013, 01:30 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by geni View Post
The actual method of killing is largely irrelevant. Its the kind of problem that you can throw manpower at to solve.

Its the logistics and communications that present a challenge. Sure you can send out a message on horseback to kill all of ethnic group X but that takes time and you risk losing horses to be people who unaccountably don't want to kill their next door neighbours. Radio is something of a game-changer in that respect. As a result genocides prior to that time tended to be farmers vs nomadic peoples since you don't need to tell farmers to kill nomadic people just just need to fail to tell them not to.
Ideology matters more than all that stuff. The Tsars were run-of-the-mill autocrats. The totalitarian Communists believed mass-bloodshed would transform the world into a glorious utopia.
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Old 10th December 2013, 01:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
It has always been Russia's plan to reintegrate Ukraine and Belarus. In all honesty, Russia's reintegration of these two countries is perhaps the best of all nations involved. Nothing constructive can come of western incursions on Russian borders, pretty sure it will result in the annihilation of humanity.
I don't know why Ukraine joining the EU would annihilate humanity.

If the people there want their country economically and politically orientated towards Western Europe rather than the Ex-KGB oligarchs in the Kremlin then it's their right to do so. I understand that they're pissed when they anticipated that it was going to happen.
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Old 10th December 2013, 01:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
It has always been Russia's plan to reintegrate Ukraine and Belarus. In all honesty, Russia's reintegration of these two countries is perhaps the best of all nations involved. Nothing constructive can come of western incursions on Russian borders, pretty sure it will result in the annihilation of humanity.
How is Ukraine, a nation and a state separate from Russia, exercising it's sovereignty in external politics, a western incursion on Russian borders?
If anything, incursion is what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

How is Ukraine served by being a Russian colony? How is that better than independence?

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Old 10th December 2013, 02:23 AM   #28
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Yesterday George Clooney sent a supporter video to the Klitschkos and they published it on twitter.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE

Oops, no that wasn't the one.

Should be easy to find though. He calls Timoshenko a "political prisoner" in it.
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Old 10th December 2013, 08:09 AM   #29
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heck even I would rather join the EU than Putinstan
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:32 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Virus View Post
I don't know why Ukraine joining the EU would annihilate humanity.

If the people there want their country economically and politically orientated towards Western Europe rather than the Ex-KGB oligarchs in the Kremlin then it's their right to do so. I understand that they're pissed when they anticipated that it was going to happen.
They'll lob nukes at us guaranteed. It's not worth the risk for such a small country. Russia has made it very clear that they are against westerners approaching their boarders. I'm more for letting Russia retake them, and slowly culturally engineering Russia and its new union to the point of integration. That seems like a much better option.
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:35 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
How is Ukraine, a nation and a state separate from Russia, exercising it's sovereignty in external politics, a western incursion on Russian borders?
If anything, incursion is what Russia is doing to Ukraine.

How is Ukraine served by being a Russian colony? How is that better than independence?

McHrozni
Ukraine is too close to Russia's border. WWII only happened 70 years ago. Russia will retaliate if the west gets too close to its borders. It's not worth it over a nation of only 40 million. Sounds bad, but ends well for everyone in the long run. See my reply to virus.
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:37 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
They'll lob nukes at us guaranteed. It's not worth the risk for such a small country. Russia has made it very clear that they are against westerners approaching their boarders. I'm more for letting Russia retake them, and slowly culturally engineering Russia and its new union to the point of integration. That seems like a much better option.
You don't think the Ukrainians should have a say in whether or not they are assimilated?
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:38 PM   #33
L.Y.S.
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
You don't think the Ukrainians should have a say in whether or not they are assimilated?
Yes, but Russia will not allow for it, and it isn't worth the risk of war for 40 million people. It's very dry cut and simple. Allow for Russia to absorb Ukraine and slowly absorb Russia over time.
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Old 10th December 2013, 12:48 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
You don't think the Ukrainians should have a say in whether or not they are assimilated?
No.

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Old 11th December 2013, 12:25 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
Ukraine is too close to Russia's border. WWII only happened 70 years ago. Russia will retaliate if the west gets too close to its borders. It's not worth it over a nation of only 40 million. Sounds bad, but ends well for everyone in the long run. See my reply to virus.
First of all, it's not Russia's business to "retaliate" against anyone who only exercises their own sovereignty, nor does it have any right whatsoever to demand allegiance from anyone outside of it's borders. Furthermore, given their history with Ukraine, any suggestion it has some special rights over Ukraine are outright disgusting. Retaliation suggests all of that, please use "strike first" instead.

Secondly, Estonia is a member of EU, Eurozone, NATO and less than 200km from Russia's second largest city and former capital. Latvia to the south also shares a border and is a member of EU and NATO. Lithuania and Poland border Kaliningrad oblast' and are also members of EU and NATO. Finland is a member of EU and Eurozone and borders Russian North, Norway is a member of NATO and shares a tiny bit of border with Russia in the far north, but not far from Murmansk, the main base of the Russian North Sea fleet. Ukraine having trade deals with EU changes nothing in that regard.

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Old 11th December 2013, 12:27 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
They'll lob nukes at us guaranteed. It's not worth the risk for such a small country. Russia has made it very clear that they are against westerners approaching their boarders. I'm more for letting Russia retake them, and slowly culturally engineering Russia and its new union to the point of integration. That seems like a much better option.
Yes, yes, let's bend over and let the dictator expand his hold over threat of war we're actually much better equipped to handle at this point. There is no way this could ever go wrong. History proves it!



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Old 12th December 2013, 01:15 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
First of all, it's not Russia's business to "retaliate" against anyone who only exercises their own sovereignty, nor does it have any right whatsoever to demand allegiance from anyone outside of it's borders. Furthermore, given their history with Ukraine, any suggestion it has some special rights over Ukraine are outright disgusting. Retaliation suggests all of that, please use "strike first" instead.

Secondly, Estonia is a member of EU, Eurozone, NATO and less than 200km from Russia's second largest city and former capital. Latvia to the south also shares a border and is a member of EU and NATO. Lithuania and Poland border Kaliningrad oblast' and are also members of EU and NATO. Finland is a member of EU and Eurozone and borders Russian North, Norway is a member of NATO and shares a tiny bit of border with Russia in the far north, but not far from Murmansk, the main base of the Russian North Sea fleet. Ukraine having trade deals with EU changes nothing in that regard.

McHrozni
Russia already regrets that it lost its hold on the countries mentioned above. Russians are extremely determined not to see a repeat of this occur, especially not with a nation it considers a strong ally and friend. I'm sure that Ukrainians don't feel the same. However it's clear that eastern Ukrainians in part do want a reintegration with Russia. Whereas western Ukrainians want a permanent divorce.

The truth is that a much better option is to allow the Russians to absorb the Ukrainians and culturally absorb the Russians over a time span of decades. Keep in mind that it took less than 20 years of planning to force the Soviet Union to collapse. I highly doubt that a plan to create deeper ties between and east Slav federation would take anything longer than 30-40 years. I consider that a reasonable wait.

There are more pros than cons to slow integration.

Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
Yes, yes, let's bend over and let the dictator expand his hold over threat of war we're actually much better equipped to handle at this point. There is no way this could ever go wrong. History proves it!



McHrozni
We've allowed dictators to expand several times, many of them sponsored by the United States government. I'm not saying allow for Russia to aggressively expand. In fact, we've done a good job of quarantining them already. They've lost their prized possessions in eastern Europe. However, I somehow have a hunch that having the capability to assault Russia's western border won't be perceived very well by the Russian people.

Russia hasn't been attacked and lost tens of millions of people to western aggression in the last 200 years. Nope, it never happened.

Again, we've engineered the collapse of the Soviet Union in 20 years. I fail to see why we can't slowly engineer their slow integration over 30 or 40 years.
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Old 12th December 2013, 01:36 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
Russia already regrets that it lost its hold on the countries mentioned above. Russians are extremely determined not to see a repeat of this occur, especially not with a nation it considers a strong ally and friend. I'm sure that Ukrainians don't feel the same. However it's clear that eastern Ukrainians in part do want a reintegration with Russia. Whereas western Ukrainians want a permanent divorce.

The truth is that a much better option is to allow the Russians to absorb the Ukrainians and culturally absorb the Russians over a time span of decades. Keep in mind that it took less than 20 years of planning to force the Soviet Union to collapse. I highly doubt that a plan to create deeper ties between and east Slav federation would take anything longer than 30-40 years. I consider that a reasonable wait.

There are more pros than cons to slow integration.
So, um, you're advocating trampling the rights and wishes of the people of western Ukraine to the wishes of Russian minority in eastern Ukraine, because ...?

If east Slav federation were possible, it would happen by now. Russia had two shots at it, one was about 200 year stint under Russian empire, the other was a 70 year one under USSR. The present situation proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, they failed miserably twice. Why do you think it is now suddenly possible in a sixth of that time. Why do you think it's even desirable? Why does Russia deserve another shot?

Quote:
I'm not saying allow for Russia to aggressively expand.
No. This is exactly what you're saying.

Quote:
In fact, we've done a good job of quarantining them already. They've lost their prized possessions in eastern Europe. However, I somehow have a hunch that having the capability to assault Russia's western border won't be perceived very well by the Russian people.
As was pointed out to you before, Russia has no right over Ukraine. Furthermore, we already have the capability to assault Russia's western border, if we desired. Thirdly, no one is even remotely suggesting a war with Russia, this is a fabrication, to justify Russian conquest of Ukraine. A particularly pathetic excuse, seeing as Russia would be well placed for an aggression towards the West.

Quote:
Russia hasn't been attacked and lost tens of millions of people to western aggression in the last 200 years. Nope, it never happened.
Western in the modern sense? No, it wasn't. It was saved by the mutual interests of the West in a few of such wars, Russia stood no chance alone in those conflicts. We can open a new thread about that, if you want.

Quote:
Again, we've engineered the collapse of the Soviet Union in 20 years. I fail to see why we can't slowly engineer their slow integration over 30 or 40 years.
Appeal to ignorance noted.

McHrozni

Last edited by McHrozni; 12th December 2013 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 12th December 2013, 07:40 AM   #39
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U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Nuland arrives at opposition rally in Kyiv

Originally Posted by Interfax
[...] Nuland is treating protesters with cookies, biscuits and bread from a big package. She is being accompanied by U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt. Demonstrators are cheering Nuland with joyful shouts, some are chanting "God bless you."

Nuland also approached Interior Forces troops deployed at the square and also offered them cookies, which the soldiers accepted silently.



We all know which side has cookies, don't we?
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Old 13th December 2013, 01:04 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by L.Y.S. View Post
Russia already regrets that it lost its hold on the countries mentioned above. Russians are extremely determined not to see a repeat of this occur, especially not with a nation it considers a strong ally and friend. I'm sure that Ukrainians don't feel the same. However it's clear that eastern Ukrainians in part do want a reintegration with Russia. Whereas western Ukrainians want a permanent divorce.

The truth is that a much better option is to allow the Russians to absorb the Ukrainians and culturally absorb the Russians over a time span of decades. Keep in mind that it took less than 20 years of planning to force the Soviet Union to collapse. I highly doubt that a plan to create deeper ties between and east Slav federation would take anything longer than 30-40 years. I consider that a reasonable wait.

There are more pros than cons to slow integration.



We've allowed dictators to expand several times, many of them sponsored by the United States government. I'm not saying allow for Russia to aggressively expand. In fact, we've done a good job of quarantining them already. They've lost their prized possessions in eastern Europe. However, I somehow have a hunch that having the capability to assault Russia's western border won't be perceived very well by the Russian people.

Russia hasn't been attacked and lost tens of millions of people to western aggression in the last 200 years. Nope, it never happened.

Again, we've engineered the collapse of the Soviet Union in 20 years. I fail to see why we can't slowly engineer their slow integration over 30 or 40 years.
1938. We have been there already... it applies to your all points including about "being attacked". We don't forget or forgive that easy as you. (1968) And we were never under direct and complete control by Russian.

So then people of Ukraine know much better what pros(if any) and cons of their decisions and how much they love Russia...
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