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Old 18th December 2013, 12:00 PM   #1
Scorpion
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What the quran really says

The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)
The Quran says the earth is flat
The Quran says the sun orbits the earth (sura 21.33 sura 36.40)
The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn (sura 36.38)
The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years

Muslim Imams will say differently, but they are liars who must know this is what the Quran really says, however there would be no money in the mosques coffers, and the 50 or more Muslim country's would collapse.
Because to admit the above is what the quran really says would be to admit it is not the words of God.

So Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population with carefully crafted lies, that attempt to give deeper meaning to the Quranic verses.So when the quran says, at sura 21.33 and 36.40 that the sun has an orbit, Imams falsely claim this is a great revelation, because Muhammad knew the sun had an orbit in the galaxy. But this is utter lies, and the quran is actually saying the sun orbits the earth, and I can prove it with the following hadith.

Hadith Bukhari Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dhar:

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

As can be seen it says that if the sun changed direction it would rise in the west. But if the sun changed direction in its orbit in the galaxy it would make no difference to the sun rising in the east, because it is the rotation of the earth that causes the appearance of the sun in the east. So this proves that the claim the quran says the sun has an orbit in the galaxy is wrong.
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Old 18th December 2013, 12:12 PM   #2
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yeah muslim countries would collapse like Vatican city did when they admited Adam and Eve are merely a metaphor and evolution is real.

all those books claimed to be the word of one or another god, are merly fantasy books, be it the bible, the torah, the koran or whatever.
they are old books by people that knew next to nothing about the planet they are living on. we know better today.
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Old 18th December 2013, 12:20 PM   #3
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the bible also claims the world and heavens was made in six days. today we know thats not true. and most christians know that and do not take the bible literally. yet christianity is sadly enough still alive and doing too good for the 21th century.

so why do you think it would be different in the muslim countries?
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Old 18th December 2013, 12:26 PM   #4
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DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
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Old 18th December 2013, 12:28 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
Some Christians think the entire bible is the absolute words of God. Therefore to show the bible says the earth was created in six days would utterly destroy this, and leave those christians with no ground to stand on.
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Old 18th December 2013, 12:29 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
And many US christian think the same for the bible and that the world is 6600 year old.

So what ?

And what's with all those quran threads ? Are you pursuying somet hing ? IMHO those can both be merged.
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Old 18th December 2013, 12:29 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
Really? All of the Muslims you have spoken to are this fundamentalist? This has not been my experience.

Ranb

Last edited by Ranb; 18th December 2013 at 12:30 PM.
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Old 18th December 2013, 12:29 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
fundies also think the bible is the perfect words of their god. and they are still around, despite them having no ground to stand on. deluded people don't need no grand to stand on. they seem to be floating, after all, gravity is just a theory
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Old 18th December 2013, 01:00 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
Uh... Not that I'm a fan of Islam but have you talked all the Muslims to figure out what they believe. There's like a billion of them so it doesn't seem that authoritative to say what Muslims believe unless you ask all of them.

Out of curiosity, do you have any religious beliefs?

Last edited by Craig4; 18th December 2013 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 18th December 2013, 01:38 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by DC View Post
yeah muslim countries would collapse like Vatican city did when they admited Adam and Eve are merely a metaphor ...
Somebody should have told Pius XII that Adam is a metaphor. This is from Humani generis an encyclical published in 1950.
Quote:
37 ... Now it is in no way apparent how such an opinion can be reconciled with that which the sources of revealed truth and the documents of the Teaching Authority of the Church propose with regard to original sin, which proceeds from a sin actually committed by an individual Adam and which, through generation, is passed on to all and is in everyone as his own.

Last edited by Craig B; 18th December 2013 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 18th December 2013, 01:40 PM   #11
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I am continually perplexed by the constant conflation between "the literal word of God" and "must therefore be read literally".

Muslims do believe that the Qur'an is the "literal word of God", in that the actual specific text is exactly as spoken by God through the angel Gabriel (as opposed to "inspiring" a human who then wrote the text using his own words). That does not mean, however, that that specific text is to be read literally. Indeed, metaphor, idiom, simile, and poetic language are are a part of the Qur'an, and have been features of tafsir since pretty much the very beginning.

In other words, Muslims believe that where Q 33:45-46 says, "O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and Warner, And as one who invites to Allah's (grace) by His leave, and as a lamp spreading light," God via Gabriel literally said the exact verbatim words in Arabic "Yāayyuhā l-nabiyu innā arsalnāka shāhidan wamubashiran wanadhīran wadāʿiyan ilā l-lahi bi-idh'nihi wasirājan munīran", but Muslims don't believe that Muhammad is literally a glass and metal oil-fueled manufactured light-giving object despite the Qur'an "literal" description of him as a sirājan munīran ("illuminating lamp").
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Last edited by A'isha; 18th December 2013 at 02:34 PM. Reason: too many parentheses!
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Old 18th December 2013, 01:45 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
In the first place, you are rather over-reaching. Not all Muslims believe that nonsense about the Koran being some sort of literal word of God.

In the second place, scientific facts seldom affect fanatics regardless of their religion.
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Old 18th December 2013, 02:26 PM   #13
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Quote:
Q 33:45-46 says, ("O Prophet! Truly We have sent thee as a Witness, a Bearer of Glad Tidings, and Warner, And as one who invites to Allah's (grace) by His leave, and as a lamp spreading light,")
OMG Muhammad was with Warners?

I thought he had a contract with Paramount...
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Old 18th December 2013, 02:29 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Somebody should have told Pius XII that Adam is a metaphor. This is from Humani generis an encyclical published in 1950.
Quote:
“The 1993 instruction of the Pontifical Biblical Commission on ‘The Interpretation of the Bible in the Church’ calls the historical-critical method ‘essential’ and rejects explicitly a fundamentalist reading of Scripture.” -
http://catholicreview.org/article/wo....sUl4Idi6.dpuf
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Old 18th December 2013, 02:35 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Brainache View Post
I thought he had a contract with Paramount...
Well, the Paramount would not come to Muhammad, so Muhammad had to go to the Paramount.
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:09 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Well, the Paramount would not come to Muhammad, so Muhammad had to go to the Paramount.
I heard it was the other way round: If Muhammad won't come to the Paramount, then bring the Paramount to Muhammad.

That was some contract!

I doubt Jack Warner would have been on-board...
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)
What translation are you using? I only checked your first allegation, but I found this:
Quote:
29. He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.
That's sura 2.29 and it doesn't say what you say it says. Do you read Arabic? I don't, so I'm stuck relying on translations. But as far as I can tell, that doesn't say the earth was created before the heavens.

I don't want to check all the other stuff you posted, you might want to.

Here's the translation I found: http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/index.html
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:28 PM   #18
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Personally, I'm entertained by the fact that he claims both that all Muslims read the Qur'an absolutely literally, and that "Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population" by...interpreting the Qur'an non-literally!
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:39 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Personally, I'm entertained by the fact that he claims both that all Muslims read the Qur'an absolutely literally, and that "Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population" by...interpreting the Qur'an non-literally!
It's not easy to insult a quarter of the world's population, unless of course, you go for a gender slur.
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:40 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What translation are you using? I only checked your first allegation, but I found this:


That's sura 2.29 and it doesn't say what you say it says. Do you read Arabic? I don't, so I'm stuck relying on translations. But as far as I can tell, that doesn't say the earth was created before the heavens.

I don't want to check all the other stuff you posted, you might want to.

Here's the translation I found: http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/index.html
I took my view from a consensus of the following translations.

Quran sura 2.29

M. M. Pickthall- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Shakir- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar- It is He Who created for you all that is in and on the earth. Again, He turned His attention to the heaven. Then, He shaped them into seven heavens. And He is Knowing of everything.

Wahiduddin Khan- It is He who created everything on the earth for you: then He turned towards heaven and fashioned it into the seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

T.B.Irving- He is the One Who has created everything that is on earth for you; then He soared up to Heaven and perfected it as seven heavens. He is Aware of everything!

[Al-Muntakhab]- He is it Who created for you all that is on earth, then applied He Himself to. the immeasurable expanse of the realm and set it in order and arranged it in seven heavens, and He is AL-'Alim who has infinite knowledge of all things.

[The Monotheist Group]- He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.

Abdel Haleem- It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge of all things.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi- He it is who created for you all that is on the earth, thereafter He turned to the heaven, and formed them seven heavens. And He is of everything the Knower.

Ahmed Ali- He made for you all that lies within the earth, then turning to the firmament He proportioned several skies: He has knowledge of everything.

Aisha Bewley- It is He who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Ali Ünal - It is He Who (prepared the earth for your life before He gave you life, and) created all that is in the world for you (in order to create you – the human species – and make the earth suitable for your life); then He directed (His Knowledge, Will, Power, and Favor) to the heaven, and formed it into seven heavens. He has full knowledge of everything.

Ali Quli Qara'i- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He turned to the heaven, and fashioned it into seven heavens, and He has knowledge of all things.

Hamid S. Aziz - It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, and He designed the heavens also and fashioned (ordered) them as seven heavens; and He knows all things.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali- He is (The One) Who created for you whatever is in the earth altogether. Thereafter He leveled Himself (How He did so is beyond human understanding stauling) to the heaven; so He leveled them seven heavens, and He is Ever-Knowing of everything.

Muhammad Sarwar- It is He who created everything on earth for you. Then, directing His order towards the realm above, He turned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Muhammad Taqi Usmani- It is He who created for you all that the earth contains; then He turned to the heavens and made them seven skies — and He is the knower of all things.

Shabbir Ahmed- He it is Who has created for you all that is in the earth. And He has applied His Design to the Sky and fashioned it as seven heavens. ((11:7), (53:31), (57:1-2)). And He alone is Knower of all things.

Syed Vickar Ahamed- It is He Who has created all things for you that are on earth; In addition, His plans called for the heavens, and He gave Order and Perfection to the seven skies: And of all things He is All Knowing (Aleem).

Umm Muhammad - It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.

Farook Malik- It is He Who has created for you all that there is in the earth; and directed Himself towards the sky and fashioned it into seven heavens. He has perfect knowledge of everything.

Dr. Munir Munshey- He it is, Who created for you every single thing that exists on earth. Then, He turned to the heavens. He evened and fashioned them into seven heavens. He is fully aware of every single thing!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri He is the One Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then He turned towards the higher regions (of the universe) and perfected them into seven heavenly firmaments. And He has full knowledge of everything.

Dr. Kamal Omar- He It is Who created, in your interest, all that is on the earth. Then He paid full attention to the sky, so He perfected them into many heavens and He is perfectly aware of every thing.

Talal A. Itani- It is He who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the heaven, and made them seven heavens. And He is aware of all things.

Bilal Muhammad- It is He Who has created for you all things that are on earth, and His design comprehends the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments, and He has perfect knowledge of all thing.

Maududi- He it is Who created for you all that there is on the Earth; He then turned to the sky and ordered it into seven heavens. And He has full knowledge of everything.

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)- He is the One who has created for you all that is on the earth, then He attended to the heaven and has made it seven heavens, and He is aware of all things.

Bijan Moeinian- God is the one Who created for you everything on earth. Then He directed His attention to the heaven and perfected seven universes therein; and He is fully aware of everything.

Faridul Haque- It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He inclined towards the heaven, therefore fashioning it as proper seven heavens; and He knows everything.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah- He created for you all that is in the earth, then, He willed to the heaven, and leveled them seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Maulana Muhammad Ali- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. And He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens; and He is Knower of all things.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira- He (is), who created for you what (is) in the land/earth/Planet Earth all together/wholly , then He tended to the sky/space, so He straightened them (into) seven skies/space(s), and He is with every thing knowledgeable.

Sher Ali- HE it is WHO created for you all that is in the earth; then HE turned towards the heavens, and HE perfected them as seven heavens; and HE has perfect knowledge of all things.

Rashad Khalifa- He is the One who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the sky and perfected seven universes therein, and He is fully aware of all things.

Ahmed Raza Khan- (Barelvi) It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He inclined towards the heaven, therefore fashioning it as proper seven heavens; and He knows everything.

Amatul Rahman Omar- It is He Who created for your benefit all that is in the earth. Moreover He turned Himself towards the space and fashioned seven heavens perfect (- denoting the multiplicity of cosmic system). He has full knowledge of all things.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali- He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


Arthur John Arberry- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He lifted Himself to heaven and levelled them seven heavens; and He has knowledge of everything.

Edward Henry Palmer- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then he made for the heavens and fashioned them seven heavens; and He knows all things.

George Sale- It is He who hath created for you whatsoever is on earth, and then set his mind to the creation of heaven, and formed it into seven heavens; He knoweth all things.

John Medows Rodwell- He it is who created for you all that is on Earth, then proceeded to the Heaven, and into seven Heavens did He fashion it: and He knoweth all things.

N J Dawood- (draft) He created for you all that the earth contains; then, ascending to the sky, He fashioned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Sayyid Qutb- It is He who created for you all that is on earth. He then turned to heaven and fashioned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli- It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then turned (His Will) to heaven and fashioned it into seven heavens, for He is All-Knowing of all things.
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:44 PM   #21
marplots
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Well, if Allah created the Earth and then turned/"rose up to" the heaven, the heaven must have already been there, right?

Logic is your friend in these matters.

ETA: In essence, you are creating your own translation with this: "The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)"
You don't have to do that. Just quote the darn book.

Last edited by marplots; 18th December 2013 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:45 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I took my view from a consensus of the following translations.

Quran sura 2.29

M. M. Pickthall- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then turned He to the heaven, and fashioned it as seven heavens. And He is knower of all things.

Shakir- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth, and He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens, and He knows all things.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985) It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938) It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge.

Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar- It is He Who created for you all that is in and on the earth. Again, He turned His attention to the heaven. Then, He shaped them into seven heavens. And He is Knowing of everything.

Wahiduddin Khan- It is He who created everything on the earth for you: then He turned towards heaven and fashioned it into the seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

T.B.Irving- He is the One Who has created everything that is on earth for you; then He soared up to Heaven and perfected it as seven heavens. He is Aware of everything!

[Al-Muntakhab]- He is it Who created for you all that is on earth, then applied He Himself to. the immeasurable expanse of the realm and set it in order and arranged it in seven heavens, and He is AL-'Alim who has infinite knowledge of all things.

[The Monotheist Group]- He is the One who created for you all that is on Earth, then He attend to the universe and made it seven universes, and He is aware of all things.

Abdel Haleem- It was He who created all that is on the earth for you, then turned to the sky and made the seven heavens; it is He who has knowledge of all things.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi- He it is who created for you all that is on the earth, thereafter He turned to the heaven, and formed them seven heavens. And He is of everything the Knower.

Ahmed Ali- He made for you all that lies within the earth, then turning to the firmament He proportioned several skies: He has knowledge of everything.

Aisha Bewley- It is He who created everything on the earth for you and then directed His attention up to heaven and arranged it into seven regular heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Ali Ünal - It is He Who (prepared the earth for your life before He gave you life, and) created all that is in the world for you (in order to create you – the human species – and make the earth suitable for your life); then He directed (His Knowledge, Will, Power, and Favor) to the heaven, and formed it into seven heavens. He has full knowledge of everything.

Ali Quli Qara'i- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He turned to the heaven, and fashioned it into seven heavens, and He has knowledge of all things.

Hamid S. Aziz - It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, and He designed the heavens also and fashioned (ordered) them as seven heavens; and He knows all things.

Muhammad Mahmoud Ghali- He is (The One) Who created for you whatever is in the earth altogether. Thereafter He leveled Himself (How He did so is beyond human understanding stauling) to the heaven; so He leveled them seven heavens, and He is Ever-Knowing of everything.

Muhammad Sarwar- It is He who created everything on earth for you. Then, directing His order towards the realm above, He turned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Muhammad Taqi Usmani- It is He who created for you all that the earth contains; then He turned to the heavens and made them seven skies — and He is the knower of all things.

Shabbir Ahmed- He it is Who has created for you all that is in the earth. And He has applied His Design to the Sky and fashioned it as seven heavens. ((11:7), (53:31), (57:1-2)). And He alone is Knower of all things.

Syed Vickar Ahamed- It is He Who has created all things for you that are on earth; In addition, His plans called for the heavens, and He gave Order and Perfection to the seven skies: And of all things He is All Knowing (Aleem).

Umm Muhammad - It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things.

Farook Malik- It is He Who has created for you all that there is in the earth; and directed Himself towards the sky and fashioned it into seven heavens. He has perfect knowledge of everything.

Dr. Munir Munshey- He it is, Who created for you every single thing that exists on earth. Then, He turned to the heavens. He evened and fashioned them into seven heavens. He is fully aware of every single thing!

Dr. Mohammad Tahir-ul-Qadri He is the One Who created for you all that is in the earth. Then He turned towards the higher regions (of the universe) and perfected them into seven heavenly firmaments. And He has full knowledge of everything.

Dr. Kamal Omar- He It is Who created, in your interest, all that is on the earth. Then He paid full attention to the sky, so He perfected them into many heavens and He is perfectly aware of every thing.

Talal A. Itani- It is He who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the heaven, and made them seven heavens. And He is aware of all things.

Bilal Muhammad- It is He Who has created for you all things that are on earth, and His design comprehends the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments, and He has perfect knowledge of all thing.

Maududi- He it is Who created for you all that there is on the Earth; He then turned to the sky and ordered it into seven heavens. And He has full knowledge of everything.

[The Monotheist Group] (2013 Edition)- He is the One who has created for you all that is on the earth, then He attended to the heaven and has made it seven heavens, and He is aware of all things.

Bijan Moeinian- God is the one Who created for you everything on earth. Then He directed His attention to the heaven and perfected seven universes therein; and He is fully aware of everything.

Faridul Haque- It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He inclined towards the heaven, therefore fashioning it as proper seven heavens; and He knows everything.

Hasan Al-Fatih Qaribullah- He created for you all that is in the earth, then, He willed to the heaven, and leveled them seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Maulana Muhammad Ali- He it is Who created for you all that is in the earth. And He directed Himself to the heaven, so He made them complete seven heavens; and He is Knower of all things.

Muhammad Ahmed - Samira- He (is), who created for you what (is) in the land/earth/Planet Earth all together/wholly , then He tended to the sky/space, so He straightened them (into) seven skies/space(s), and He is with every thing knowledgeable.

Sher Ali- HE it is WHO created for you all that is in the earth; then HE turned towards the heavens, and HE perfected them as seven heavens; and HE has perfect knowledge of all things.

Rashad Khalifa- He is the One who created for you everything on earth, then turned to the sky and perfected seven universes therein, and He is fully aware of all things.

Ahmed Raza Khan- (Barelvi) It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then He inclined towards the heaven, therefore fashioning it as proper seven heavens; and He knows everything.

Amatul Rahman Omar- It is He Who created for your benefit all that is in the earth. Moreover He turned Himself towards the space and fashioned seven heavens perfect (- denoting the multiplicity of cosmic system). He has full knowledge of all things.

Muhsin Khan & Muhammad al-Hilali- He it is Who created for you all that is on earth. Then He Istawa (rose over) towards the heaven and made them seven heavens and He is the All-Knower of everything.


Arthur John Arberry- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then He lifted Himself to heaven and levelled them seven heavens; and He has knowledge of everything.

Edward Henry Palmer- It is He who created for you all that is in the earth, then he made for the heavens and fashioned them seven heavens; and He knows all things.

George Sale- It is He who hath created for you whatsoever is on earth, and then set his mind to the creation of heaven, and formed it into seven heavens; He knoweth all things.

John Medows Rodwell- He it is who created for you all that is on Earth, then proceeded to the Heaven, and into seven Heavens did He fashion it: and He knoweth all things.

N J Dawood- (draft) He created for you all that the earth contains; then, ascending to the sky, He fashioned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Sayyid Qutb- It is He who created for you all that is on earth. He then turned to heaven and fashioned it into seven heavens. He has knowledge of all things.

Sayyed Abbas Sadr-Ameli- It is He Who created for you all that is in the earth; then turned (His Will) to heaven and fashioned it into seven heavens, for He is All-Knowing of all things.
No you didn't.

That's just a list you copy/pasted.

Do you have a Holy Book?

If so, is it perfect?
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:46 PM   #23
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We need to get Scorpion and mikeb768 together sometime.
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:51 PM   #24
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By the way, you know this is mysticism and not an astronomy text, right?
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Old 18th December 2013, 03:54 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
By the way, you know this is mysticism and not an astronomy text, right?
There is no reason for mystics to say the sun orbits the earth.
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Old 18th December 2013, 04:06 PM   #26
marplots
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
There is no reason for mystics to say the sun orbits the earth.
Might be. When Nietzsche said, "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." I'm not going to demand to see these "monsters" or ask how the abyss can have eyes. There's a bit of poetic license on offer, just as in a religious text.

And do they really say "orbit?" I'm surprised. Or is this another one of those translation problems?
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Old 18th December 2013, 04:20 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post

And do they really say "orbit?" I'm surprised. Or is this another one of those translation problems?
The word orbit is used in the majority of translations of the quran verses 21.33 and 36.40
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Old 18th December 2013, 04:26 PM   #28
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Scorpion your thoughts on the '1,000 errors in the Quran' website
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Old 18th December 2013, 04:35 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Scorpion your thoughts on the '1,000 errors in the Quran' website
I will take a look at it, but it is not my source as I have not read it.
I read the quran myself and drew my own conclusions. I use the Pickthall and Yusuf Ali translations, as I have both those in book form. But I also refer to all the known translations listed on the Internet, and I have the pdf files of the Marriful quran I downloaded too.
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Old 18th December 2013, 04:44 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)
The Quran says the earth is flat
The Quran says the sun orbits the earth (sura 21.33 sura 36.40)
The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn (sura 36.38)
The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years
I don't usually troll the JREF forums looking for threads which can be destroyed with a single post, but unfortunately for this one I had a few seconds to spare.

The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens?
[Quran 2:29] "It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge."
*So far we find no mention of your claim, unless the reference which you provided is incorrect?

The Quran says the earth is flat?
*If this is true then please tell us where. If you were unable to find a reference for this in the Quran then why did you bother to make the claim?

The Quran says the sun orbits the earth?
[Quran 21:33] "It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course."
*Not only does it not say what you claim, but it actually describes quite well what is taking place (well before the invention of the first telescope I might add).

[Quran 36:40] "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)."
*Once again if you could please indicate the parts of the above sentence which you think best supports your claims?

The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn?
[Quran 36:38] "And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing."
*So far you seem to be quite consistent, you make a claim, cite a source, we then go and take a look at the source which you have provided and nothings there. Go figure.

The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years? *OK, where? And once again why post things which you can't seem to find support for? Not only is your flimsy argument (if it can even be called that) completely off base, but I have actually written an in depth post on fact that the fact that Quran correctly stated the ratio of the Earth's age to that of the age of the universe (as 1:3), some 1400 years ago. Link


Peace, and may God guide all of those who are sincere.
"O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous,"
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Old 18th December 2013, 04:51 PM   #31
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Old 18th December 2013, 05:01 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
I don't usually troll the JREF forums looking for threads which can be destroyed with a single post, but unfortunately for this one I had a few seconds to spare.

The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens?
[Quran 2:29] "It is He Who hath created for you all things that are on earth; Moreover His design comprehended the heavens, for He gave order and perfection to the seven firmaments; and of all things He hath perfect knowledge."
*So far we find no mention of your claim, unless the reference which you provided is incorrect?

The Quran says the earth is flat?
*If this is true then please tell us where. If you were unable to find a reference for this in the Quran then why did you bother to make the claim?

The Quran says the sun orbits the earth?
[Quran 21:33] "It is He Who created the Night and the Day, and the sun and the moon: all (the celestial bodies) swim along, each in its rounded course."
*Not only does it not say what you claim, but it actually describes quite well what is taking place (well before the invention of the first telescope I might add).

[Quran 36:40] "It is not permitted to the Sun to catch up the Moon, nor can the Night outstrip the Day: Each (just) swims along in (its own) orbit (according to Law)."
*Once again if you could please indicate the parts of the above sentence which you think best supports your claims?

The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn?
[Quran 36:38] "And the sun runs his course for a period determined for him: that is the decree of (Him), the Exalted in Might, the All-Knowing."
*So far you seem to be quite consistent, you make a claim, cite a source, we then go and take a look at the source which you have provided and nothings there. Go figure.

The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years? *OK, where? And once again why post things which you can't seem to find support for? Not only is your flimsy argument (if it can even be called that) completely off base, but I have actually written an in depth post on fact that the fact that Quran correctly stated the ratio of the Earth's age to that of the age of the universe (as 1:3), some 1400 years ago. Link


Peace, and may God guide all of those who are sincere.
"O mankind, what has deceived you concerning your Lord, the Generous,"
I can't deal with all that tonight as its time for bed. But I will deal with it tomorrow. In the meantime I see you are agreeing with me that the quran says the sun has an orbit? If so do not miss my footnote to the hadith in the OP where I make it clear that the quoted hadith explains verse 36.38 and says the sun will be sent back on its course, so it will rise in the west. This means the hadith is saying the sun orbits the earth. It cannot be saying the sun has an orbit in the galaxy as Imams deceitfully claim. Because if the sun was sent back on its course in the galaxy it would still rise in the east.

I know its complicated, and difficult to explain, but think about it.

As for the translation of verse 36.38 Pickthall says the following.

And the sun runneth on unto a resting-place for him. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Wise.

Last edited by Scorpion; 18th December 2013 at 05:10 PM.
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Old 18th December 2013, 05:07 PM   #33
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Scorpion, there is another way to approach this.
1) Ask a Muslim if they believe the Quran is true - I'll assume they say yes.
2) Ask them if they think the sun orbits the earth (or any of that other stuff).

Do you really think Muslims simultaneously believe both? And if they can manage to figure it out, ask them how they did it. Adopt that method and your concerns will vanish.

I never understood the method of non-believers trying to tell believers what their holy text means. I wouldn't accept that for Darwin if a Creationist did it. The bias taints the exercise.

Last edited by marplots; 18th December 2013 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 18th December 2013, 05:17 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years? *OK, where? And once again why post things which you can't seem to find support for? Not only is your flimsy argument (if it can even be called that) completely off base, but I have actually written an in depth post on fact that the fact that Quran correctly stated the ratio of the Earth's age to that of the age of the universe (as 1:3), some 1400 years ago.

Quran, sura 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Also at sura 10.3 and 11.7 and 25.59 and 50.38 and 57.4

The Quran then goes on to say one of Gods days is as a thousand years to us.

Quran, sura 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

These verses imply the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years.
What is more they are directly stolen from the bible. Proving that the source of much of the quran is the bible, and the quran is not from God.

Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
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Old 18th December 2013, 05:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Quran, sura 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Also at sura 10.3 and 11.7 and 25.59 and 50.38 and 57.4

The Quran then goes on to say one of Gods days is as a thousand years to us.

Quran, sura 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

These verses imply the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years.
What is more they are directly stolen from the bible. Proving that the source of much of the quran is the bible, and the quran is not from God.

Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
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Old 18th December 2013, 05:48 PM   #36
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Did we move away from the claim in the thread title: "What the Quran really says?"

Shouldn't it more properly be something like, "How I Interpret the Quran?" Because, as far as I can tell, that's what's actually on offer in this thread.
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Old 18th December 2013, 05:52 PM   #37
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Ok, so, let's assume the Quran is full of factual errors. Now what?

I mentioned in another thread that I have not found a single religious bible/quran/whathaveyouholyscripture that is correct with the world as we experience it.

The muslems are not unique in this. Have you ever read what Mormons believe? Or Scientology? Or, if you want to really have a jawdrop, Hindu's? Or Buddhists?

It makes sense to defend against people stating actively that the claims in these scriptures are true and that we experience a world that is incorrect.

It makes no sense to try and find something wrong in books written aeons ago and then ask unsuspecting believers to defend those errors.

Imams, Rabbi's, Priests, Yogi's, Politicians... they all do the same thing everybody does:
Being a poor old schmuck, shlepping through life, trying to have a better day than yesterday.
(I am not jewish, I just like some of their words with attached connotations)
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Old 18th December 2013, 06:01 PM   #38
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Mikeb and Scorpion...

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Old 18th December 2013, 07:03 PM   #39
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I'm less concerned about people who state that the scientific claims in religious scriptures are true, than I am about people who state that religious scripture justifies discrimination and violence against other groups. Which causes more harm? Someone who believes in whacko science? Or someone who straps on explosives and ball bearings and runs into a crowd of innocent people?
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Old 18th December 2013, 07:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I can't deal with all that tonight as its time for bed. But I will deal with it tomorrow. In the meantime I see you are agreeing with me that the quran says the sun has an orbit?
Well... It does actually. ...
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