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Old 18th December 2013, 07:48 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Well... It does actually. ...
It's highly likely the quran was implying the sun orbits the earth.
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Old 18th December 2013, 08:43 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Well... It does actually. ...
I'm guessing he though the sun was stationary? Or just something which spins on its own axis? Yes, the sun has an orbit just like the earth has an orbit.
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Old 18th December 2013, 10:50 PM   #43
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Scorpion, do you have any religious beliefs?
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Old 19th December 2013, 06:02 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
I'm less concerned about people who state that the scientific claims in religious scriptures are true, than I am about people who state that religious scripture justifies discrimination and violence against other groups. Which causes more harm? Someone who believes in whacko science? Or someone who straps on explosives and ball bearings and runs into a crowd of innocent people?
I don't see a clear answer to that question actually.

Werner von Braun did real science and managed to do more damage than a couple of nutjobs flying planes in two towers full of people.
(Sorry for the Godwin)

Oppenheimer and team did real science and managed to do four times the damage Von Braun did as measured in death toll.

I am just trying to say that the motivation is not a direct measure to the damage people do.
And that motivation can come from people that assume they think levelheaded thoughts just as much as people that think they are defending their religious beliefs.

But that was not what this thread is about (although I suspect a hidden agenda).

The OP states that the Quran is not a match for Newton's Principia... and my response to that is 'You are correct, now what?'
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Old 19th December 2013, 03:56 PM   #45
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I'd agree that this is basically a thread of "how I read and interpreted the Qur'an." More interesting I think, is what is likely to have been meant by statements in the Qur'an based on the time period, cultural beliefs of the area, potential motivations of the authors, and how Arabic was viewed/read/used at that time. All of which I would say require a lot of historical research and knowledge that you can't get from just simply reading the book (presumably in English.)
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Old 19th December 2013, 06:48 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I can't deal with all that tonight as its time for bed. But I will deal with it tomorrow. In the meantime I see you are agreeing with me that the quran says the sun has an orbit?
Originally Posted by Redtail View Post
Well... It does actually. ...
There is nothing like starting a thread to make a point only to find out that the point which you are trying to make cannot be supported. Not only that, but managing to prove your lack of knowledge regarding the subject at hand.

Our Sun orbits the center of our galaxy, just like all the stars which inhabit the Milky Way. Maybe the provided video will help to shed some light on this subject for you and others.
Location of the Sun in the Milky Way And lastly you also managed to bring to light one of the many miracles of the book which you were trying to discredit.


[1024 x 786] .................. [640 x 480]

Last edited by mikeb768; 19th December 2013 at 07:03 PM.
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Old 19th December 2013, 07:40 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
There is nothing like starting a thread to make a point only to find out that the point which you are trying to make cannot be supported.
Take it from the expert, Scorpion. He knows what he's talking about.
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Old 19th December 2013, 08:41 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
Take it from the expert, Scorpion. He knows what he's talking about.
Yeah, that thread was actually pretty good.

Although even scientists seem to agree regarding the similitude of Black holes which are often found at the center of galaxies and that of ocean eddies (An eddy is a circular current of water).

"Ocean Eddies Are Mathematically Equivalent to Black Holes", the research which was used to come to this determination was conducted by George Haller, Professor of Nonlinear Dynamics at ETH Zurich, and Francisco Beron-Vera, Research Professor of Oceanography at the University of Miami.
Link

Anyone notice a Similarity?

Last edited by mikeb768; 19th December 2013 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 19th December 2013, 11:59 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
There is nothing like starting a thread to make a point only to find out that the point which you are trying to make cannot be supported. Not only that, but managing to prove your lack of knowledge regarding the subject at hand.

Our Sun orbits the center of our galaxy, just like all the stars which inhabit the Milky Way. Maybe the provided video will help to shed some light on this subject for you and others.
Location of the Sun in the Milky Way And lastly you also managed to bring to light one of the many miracles of the book which you were trying to discredit.

http://s30.postimg.org/s92ld3btp/timeline.jpg http://s11.postimg.org/hcq1ezun3/timeline.jpg
[1024 x 786] .................. [640 x 480]
In fairness to Scorpion it is pretty clear that Mohamed made the whole thing up. There's no serious argument to be made that there was anything supernatural in the writing of the Quran. I know some of us would like to know if these is merely a case of Scorpion saying "my made up fairy story is better than the Muslim made up fairy story."
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Old 20th December 2013, 02:53 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post

In fairness to Scorpion it is pretty clear that Mohamed made the whole thing up. There's no serious argument to be made that there was anything supernatural in the writing of the Quran. I know some of us would like to know if these is merely a case of Scorpion saying "my made up fairy story is better than the Muslim made up fairy story."
I second that.

As I said, I suspect Scorpion of trying to rouse us into an anti Islam frenzy.

Scorpion, you are correct in that the quran is incorrect in a lot of things.

That is no surprise.

But what do you want to do with that knowledge?
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Old 20th December 2013, 03:54 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
As I said, I suspect Scorpion of trying to rouse us into an anti Islam frenzy.
I suspect it very strongly.
Quote:
Muslim Imams ... are liars who must know this is what the Quran really says, however there would be no money in the mosques coffers, and the 50 or more Muslim country's would collapse ... So Muslim Imams conspire to deceive the population with carefully crafted lies ... Imams falsely claim ... But this is utter lies ...
Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
Scorpion, you are correct in that the quran is incorrect in a lot of things. That is no surprise.
Yes. As regards the motion of the sun, how about this?
Quote:
Qur’an 18:83-86—And they ask you about Dhul-Qarnain. Say: “I shall recite to you something of his story.” Verily, We established him in the earth, and We gave him the means of everything. So he followed a way. Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water.
Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
But what do you want to do with that knowledge?
Rouse us into an anti Islam frenzy, I suspect.

Last edited by Craig B; 20th December 2013 at 03:55 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:24 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
In fairness to Scorpion it is pretty clear that Mohamed made the whole thing up. There's no serious argument to be made that there was anything supernatural in the writing of the Quran. I know some of us would like to know if these is merely a case of Scorpion saying "my made up fairy story is better than the Muslim made up fairy story."
Has scorpion revealed his/her beliefs?
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:28 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post

Has scorpion revealed his/her beliefs?
Nah, he/she is a hit and run poster.

If the direction of the discussion is not to their liking, they leave.
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:50 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Has scorpion revealed his/her beliefs?
No, though he's been asked by more people than just me. It really has no impact on what the Quran says but it would be nice to scope what he's trying to accomplish.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:13 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
There is nothing like starting a thread to make a point only to find out that the point which you are trying to make cannot be supported. Not only that, but managing to prove your lack of knowledge regarding the subject at hand.

Our Sun orbits the center of our galaxy, just like all the stars which inhabit the Milky Way. Maybe the provided video will help to shed some light on this subject for you and others.
And lastly you also managed to bring to light one of the many miracles of the book which you were trying to discredit.
Either you have not read the opening post, or you fail to comprehend it. I have proved that the quoted hadith says the sun orbits the earth, and it does not speak of the suns orbit in the galaxy. The quoted hadith is a well reputed one and it is a fuller explanation of verse 36.38 from the quran.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:14 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
Nah, he/she is a hit and run poster.

If the direction of the discussion is not to their liking, they leave.
I am not a hit and run poster, I am just a late riser. Also I am in England so there may be a time delay. As for my personal beliefs, I do not see what they have to do with this thread.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:21 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
I second that.

As I said, I suspect Scorpion of trying to rouse us into an anti Islam frenzy.

Scorpion, you are correct in that the quran is incorrect in a lot of things.

That is no surprise.

But what do you want to do with that knowledge?
That you agree with me is reward enough, I do not need you in a frenzy.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:22 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not a hit and run poster, I am just a late riser. Also I am in England so there may be a time delay. As for my personal beliefs, I do not see what they have to do with this thread.
Then what is the point of these threads? That the sacred scriptures of an Abrahamic religion aren't actually all that much use as a modern science textbook? Duh...tell us something we don't know.

So...what?
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:29 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Then what is the point of these threads? That the sacred scriptures of an Abrahamic religion aren't actually all that much use as a modern science textbook? Duh...tell us something we don't know.

So...what?
So ... Muslim literalists are as mistaken as Jewish or Christian ones. But literalism is more prevalent in Islam than in the other faiths. I think that's the message.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:30 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not a hit and run poster, I am just a late riser. Also I am in England so there may be a time delay. As for my personal beliefs, I do not see what they have to do with this thread.
Great, now what are your religious beliefs? Are you playing a game of "my made up fairy story us better than your made up fairy story"?
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:34 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
Ok, so, let's assume the Quran is full of factual errors. Now what?

I mentioned in another thread that I have not found a single religious bible/quran/whathaveyouholyscripture that is correct with the world as we experience it.

The muslems are not unique in this. Have you ever read what Mormons believe? Or Scientology? Or, if you want to really have a jawdrop, Hindu's? Or Buddhists?

It makes sense to defend against people stating actively that the claims in these scriptures are true and that we experience a world that is incorrect.

It makes no sense to try and find something wrong in books written aeons ago and then ask unsuspecting believers to defend those errors.

Imams, Rabbi's, Priests, Yogi's, Politicians... they all do the same thing everybody does:
Being a poor old schmuck, shlepping through life, trying to have a better day than yesterday.
(I am not jewish, I just like some of their words with attached connotations)
I am in complete agreement with this it deserves a bump
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:36 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Then what is the point of these threads? That the sacred scriptures of an Abrahamic religion aren't actually all that much use as a modern science textbook? Duh...tell us something we don't know.

So...what?
Other than a hidden anti Muslim agenda I cannot think of any real reason to focus on just one of the three Abrahamic religion's beliefs and books.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:36 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
No. They'll adapt. Faith is nearly impossible to kill, because humans are mostly predisposed to it.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:38 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Great, now what are your religious beliefs? Are you playing a game of "my made up fairy story us better than your made up fairy story"?
My beliefs are probably best dealt with on another thread, as I can imagine the storm of derision I will create. If I mention I have practical experience of the occult, you will see what I mean, and I do not want to deal with that on this thread.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:41 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have practical experience of the occult
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:47 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My beliefs are probably best dealt with on another thread, as I can imagine the storm of derision I will create. If I mention I have practical experience of the occult, you will see what I mean, and I do not want to deal with that on this thread.
So, you believe something as unsupportable as what Muslims believe.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:47 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My beliefs are probably best dealt with on another thread, as I can imagine the storm of derision I will create. If I mention I have practical experience of the occult, you will see what I mean, and I do not want to deal with that on this thread.
Want to make a cool million?
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:54 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
So, you believe something as unsupportable as what Muslims believe.
One of the reasons I spend some of my time criticizing the quran is that as far as I am concerned it is a terrible indictment of God. It is filled with lurid descriptions of hell that I am quite sure are lies made up by Muhammad who stole the idea of hellfire from the bible, to scare people into fighting his wars for him. Believe it or not I am trying to liberate Muslims from the fear of such a monster God, and replace it with what would probably be described as a new age God of mercy. But I will have to start another thread about it, or take this one off topic.
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Old 20th December 2013, 09:59 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
One of the reasons I spend some of my time criticizing the quran is that as far as I am concerned it is a terrible indictment of God. It is filled with lurid descriptions of hell that I am quite sure are lies made up by Muhammad who stole the idea of hellfire from the bible, to scare people into fighting his wars for him. Believe it or not I am trying to liberate Muslims from the fear of such a monster God,
Do you also want to liberate Christians from the fear of their God and the idea of hellfire promised in the Bible (and which Muhammad merely swiped in the first place)?

Quote:
and replace it with what would probably be described as a new age God of mercy. But I will have to start another thread about it, or take this one off topic.
Why do you feel the need to replace one God with another?
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:00 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
One of the reasons I spend some of my time criticizing the quran is that as far as I am concerned it is a terrible indictment of God. It is filled with lurid descriptions of hell that I am quite sure are lies made up by Muhammad who stole the idea of hellfire from the bible, to scare people into fighting his wars for him. Believe it or not I am trying to liberate Muslims from the fear of such a monster God, and replace it with what would probably be described as a new age God of mercy. But I will have to start another thread about it, or take this one off topic.
Muhammad didn't need to make anything up. The Christians were there already and he took it from them, adding to it no doubt from the resources of his own imagination. The later Synoptics contain the doctrine of eternal punishment. Mark doesn't seem to. Roman Catholics were preaching "outside the church no salvation" until recently and many still do - with impunity as far as I can see. It is the most horrible doctrine, and Muslims and Christians alike should abandon it in shame. But Muhammad didn't invent it.

ETA
Quote:
Revelation 14:10,11 "He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever;"
Revelation 20:10 "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Last edited by Craig B; 20th December 2013 at 10:05 AM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:10 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Why do you feel the need to replace one God with another?
Because I think there probably is a God, but he is nothing like the monster decribed, either in the bible or quran. We can never comprehend God because he/she/it is an infinite eternal mind, and we are finite mortals. So we limit God to our level by trying to get a handle on him with flawed theologys.
It is time for us to get a better expanded view of God than the ancient one.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:15 AM   #72
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Craig B , I agree with you that Muhammad took the idea of hellfire from the bible, then he added to it with lurid nonsense from his own imagination. Here is a sample.

Quran
22.19 These two antagonists dispute with each other about their Lord: But those who deny (their Lord),- for them will be cut out a garment of Fire: over their heads will be poured out boiling water.
22.20 With it will be scalded what is within their bodies, as well as (their) skins.
22.21 In addition there will be maces of iron (to punish) them.
22.22 Every time they wish to get away therefrom, from anguish, they will be forced back therein, and (it will be said), "Taste ye the Penalty of Burning!"


4.56 Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for God is Exalted in Power, Wise.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:16 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Because I think there probably is a God, but he is nothing like the monster decribed, either in the bible or quran.
So why are you focusing solely on the Qur'an?

And what on Earth made you think that you'd find Muslims to "liberate" at a US-based skeptics message board?
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:17 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Craig B , I agree with you that Muhammad took the idea of hellfire from the bible, then he added to it with lurid nonsense from his own imagination.
Ever seen a Bosch painting, Scorpion?
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:23 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
So why are you focusing solely on the Qur'an?

And what on Earth made you think that you'd find Muslims to "liberate" at a US-based skeptics message board?
The bible has already been trashed by experts, but there is not so much criticism of the quran. As for finding Muslims on this forum, I think there is one on this thread.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:26 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Ever seen a Bosch painting, Scorpion?
I was a full time art student for three years in the 1960s and I have a poster of the garden of earthy delights on my wall.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:32 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The bible has already been trashed by experts, but there is not so much criticism of the quran.
I don't think your posts actually count as "criticism of the Qur'an". That would be more like these books.

Quote:
As for finding Muslims on this forum, I think there is one on this thread.
And good luck with that.

If you like, I can suggest a few places where you can find a higher proportion of them for you to preach at.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was a full time art student for three years in the 1960s and I have a poster of the garden of earthy delights on my wall.
Do you think Bosch came up with that imagery and subject matter independently of the Church's teachings on the matter?
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Last edited by A'isha; 20th December 2013 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 10:38 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
... Do you think Bosch came up with that imagery and subject matter independently of the Church's teachings on the matter?
I don't think he got it from the Quran, at all events.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:03 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post

Want to make a cool million?
According to the current value (the statement is on the site somewhere) it is more like 1.4 mio now.
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:07 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

One of the reasons I spend some of my time criticizing the quran is that as far as I am concerned it is a terrible indictment of God. It is filled with lurid descriptions of hell that I am quite sure are lies made up by Muhammad who stole the idea of hellfire from the bible, to scare people into fighting his wars for him. Believe it or not I am trying to liberate Muslims from the fear of such a monster God, and replace it with what would probably be described as a new age God of mercy. But I will have to start another thread about it, or take this one off topic.
Good for you , but pointing to factual errors to do such is a bit silly.

I predict that whatever it is you believe in has it's goodly amount of factual errors.
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