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Old 20th December 2013, 11:10 AM   #81
realpaladin
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post

Because I think there probably is a God, but he is nothing like the monster decribed, either in the bible or quran. We can never comprehend God because he/she/it is an infinite eternal mind, and we are finite mortals. So we limit God to our level by trying to get a handle on him with flawed theologys.
It is time for us to get a better expanded view of God than the ancient one.
Start with Hinduism first; it has more followers and you'd need to clean up 1499 gods....
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:24 AM   #82
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Okay, this god is unknowable and not the monster of the Bible or the Quran and you want the world to have an expanded view of he/she/it. Anyone else see a problem with all this?
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Old 20th December 2013, 11:54 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Okay, this god is unknowable and not the monster of the Bible or the Quran and you want the world to have an expanded view of he/she/it. Anyone else see a problem with all this?
Expanded unknowability is the best kind of unknowability in my opinion. Better than expanded monstrosity anyway.
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Old 20th December 2013, 12:07 PM   #84
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If this god us unknowable, you can't really say he/she/it (HSI) isn't the monster from the Bible or Quran. The downside of the unknowable bit is the HSI could be a real dick and none of us know it. Having considered that, we can dismiss the idea that we can have an expanded view of this unknowable entity for the simple reason HSI is unknowable.
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Old 20th December 2013, 12:14 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
If this god us unknowable, you can't really say he/she/it (HSI) isn't the monster from the Bible or Quran. The downside of the unknowable bit is the HSI could be a real dick and none of us know it.
Better the God you know than the God you don't, as it were?
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Old 20th December 2013, 12:24 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
Better the God you know than the God you don't, as it were?
If we take Scorpions idea to the logical conclusion it's all the god you don't know so why even bother with it?
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Old 20th December 2013, 12:38 PM   #87
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It is my view that the human race is evolving spiritually over the centuries.
For example we no longer put people to death for entertainment like the Romans did. We also have charities that many people donate to from their hard earned money, because they have compassion for the less fortunate.
We also no longer worship Gods of war. So it is arguable that we are spiritually more developed than our ancestors.

We have discarded many Gods of past civilizations, and it is my view the time has come to discard the God of wrath of the bible and quran. Because if we can show mercy and compassion, and we would not want to burn anyone for a minute, let alone for an eternity, then how can we be more merciful than the God that created us?

We can tell from looking into our own hearts that God cannot be the monster of religious texts, because our own feelings are as much of God as we can know. So we can have an expanded view of God based on our own emotions, that does not have to be constrained by limiting doctrines.
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Old 20th December 2013, 12:42 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We also have charities that many people donate to from their hard earned money, because they have compassion for the less fortunate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sadaqah
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Old 20th December 2013, 12:54 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is my view that the human race is evolving spiritually over the centuries.
For example we no longer put people to death for entertainment like the Romans did. We also have charities that many people donate to from their hard earned money, because they have compassion for the less fortunate.
We also no longer worship Gods of war. So it is arguable that we are spiritually more developed than our ancestors.

We have discarded many Gods of past civilizations, and it is my view the time has come to discard the God of wrath of the bible and quran. Because if we can show mercy and compassion, and we would not want to burn anyone for a minute, let alone for an eternity, then how can we be more merciful than the God that created us?

We can tell from looking into our own hearts that God cannot be the monster of religious texts, because our own feelings are as much of God as we can know. So we can have an expanded view of God based on our own emotions, that does not have to be constrained by limiting doctrines.
That is an evolution of laws, not spirituality. We've created institutions that are stronger than our leaders (in much if the world) and charged those institutions with protecting the rights of people. This is the result of practical social compacts not some warm and fuzzy spiritual energy. Do you really think that if gladiatorial combat returned people wouldn't watch, even if they didn't agree with it? We're getting better at running our societies not getting more spiritual.
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Old 20th December 2013, 02:15 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
It is my view that the human race is evolving spiritually over the centuries.
For example we no longer put people to death for entertainment like the Romans did.
Try Idi Amin.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We also have charities that many people donate to from their hard earned money, because they have compassion for the less fortunate.
We also no longer worship Gods of war. So it is arguable that we are spiritually more developed than our ancestors.
Well, some of us still worship Gods of death and war. Did I mention Hinduism yet?
Try looking up some of their gods.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We have discarded many Gods of past civilizations, and it is my view the time has come to discard the God of wrath of the bible and quran. Because if we can show mercy and compassion, and we would not want to burn anyone for a minute, let alone for an eternity, then how can we be more merciful than the God that created us?
Scientology tells us we are cruel because Xenu has dropped worried Thetans in a volcano and they cling to our souls.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We can tell from looking into our own hearts that God cannot be the monster of religious texts, because our own feelings are as much of God as we can know. So we can have an expanded view of God based on our own emotions, that does not have to be constrained by limiting doctrines.
If you believe in a god, then yes, you could.
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Old 20th December 2013, 03:23 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
I second that.

As I said, I suspect Scorpion of trying to rouse us into an anti Islam frenzy.

Scorpion, you are correct in that the quran is incorrect in a lot of things.

That is no surprise.

But what do you want to do with that knowledge?
Why do people continue to make this claim "the Quran is incorrect in a lot of things" without providing any actual support?

Many websites which make claims like:
1,000 errors in the Quran!
100,000 errors in the Quran!
1,000,000 errors in the Quran!
All seem to come up short after the claims are further evaluated.

Maybe if someone was to just provide "1" good error (try taking the quality over quantity approach)?

If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us? So far the only supported claim in this entire thread seems to be one that the Quran makes regarding the sun and moon having an orbit. Which is something which has over time clearly been determined to be true.

Until then...
http://s30.postimg.org/opgnna941/timeline.png
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Old 20th December 2013, 03:35 PM   #92
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Mikeb768 You ask for one error.

The quran incorrectly copies the bible by saying that Noah lived 950 years, but this is considered to be a miss translation in the bible made by an early scribe. The quran exactly copies this mistake thereby proving the quran is plagiarism from the bible, and not a revelation from God.

Quran says Noah lived 950 years:

Quran 29:14:
Quote:

YUSUFALI: We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin.

PICKTHAL: And verily we sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years; and the flood engulfed them, for they were wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust.

Genesis chapter 9

28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
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Old 20th December 2013, 03:53 PM   #93
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A second error in the quran is that it includes a story about Jesus childhood which is copied from an early book of fables.

The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.

The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
From the Yusuf Ali translation.

003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the facts of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone.
2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.
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Old 20th December 2013, 03:55 PM   #94
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Scorpion, the method you have adopted seems to be, "If I can demonstrate one solid, factual error, then I have grounds to throw the whole thing out."

But, when I use your method on what you wrote (your first listed claim) and find that you have made an error, shouldn't I throw out everything else you claim as well?

Should I be expected to research all your claims, having found fault in the very first? At what point will the exercise end?

Here is an alternative for you. If you can find one single passage in the Quran that speaks to your heart, from Allah, then treasure that passage and hold it as your own - a gift from God. Instead of looking for the dirt, seek ye the ore and mine that.

One does not say of corn, "I cannot eat the roots, I cannot eat the stalk, I cannot eat the cob - this plant is worthless." That man will starve. Let me invite you to forgo the spiritual starvation that comes from your method of criticism.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:03 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post

Why do people continue to make this claim "the Quran is incorrect in a lot of things" without providing any actual support?

Many websites which make claims like:
1,000 errors in the Quran!
100,000 errors in the Quran!
1,000,000 errors in the Quran!
All seem to come up short after the claims are further evaluated.

Maybe if someone was to just provide "1" good error (try taking the quality over quantity approach)?

If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us? So far the only supported claim in this entire thread seems to be one that the Quran makes regarding the sun and moon having an orbit. Which is something which has over time clearly been determined to be true.

Until then...
http://s30.postimg.org/opgnna941/timeline.png
How about the claim that Isa (Jesus) existed?

Christians can't and since the story of Isa is a fork from the biblical Jesus the Quran can't.
Mind you, the one that makes a claim needs to provide proof.
So until that proof is provided I can quite safely say it is incorrect.

Or, to make a more blanket statement: It claims the existence of a deity.
As long as there is no proof, I can still say it is incorrect.

It is these holy scriptures that claim things, therefore they need to provide the proof.

So, unless you have an extensive list of rigorous proof for every claim made in the Quran (remember, it claims to be the truth) what you are asking is a silly reversal of the burden of proof.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:05 PM   #96
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So, the proof that the Qur'an is wrong is both that it copies from the Bible, and that it doesn't copy from the Bible?
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:08 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Mikeb768 You ask for one error.

The quran incorrectly copies the bible by saying that Noah lived 950 years, but this is considered to be a miss translation in the bible made by an early scribe. The quran exactly copies this mistake thereby proving the quran is plagiarism from the bible, and not a revelation from God.

Quran says Noah lived 950 years:

Quran 29:14:
Quote:

YUSUFALI: We (once) sent Noah to his people, and he tarried among them a thousand years less fifty: but the Deluge overwhelmed them while they (persisted in) sin.

PICKTHAL: And verily we sent Noah (as Our messenger) unto his folk, and he continued with them for a thousand years save fifty years; and the flood engulfed them, for they were wrong-doers.

SHAKIR: And certainly We sent Nuh to his people, so he remained among them a thousand years save fifty years. And the deluge overtook them, while they were unjust.

Genesis chapter 9

28 And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.
29 And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.
OK, so how are you able to prove this to be an error? We have no way to determine if Noah lived to be 9.5, 95, or 950 for that matter?

Also the idea that the Quran was copied from the Bible has long sense been debunked. Just one example can be seen with the person known as "Haman" who is mentioned in both the Bible and the Quran.

"The name Haman is first mentioned in the Biblical book of Esther, some 1,100 years after Pharaoh. The name is said to be Babylonian, not Egyptian. According to the book of Esther, Haman was a counsellor of Ahasuerus (the Biblical name of Xerxes) who was an enemy of the Jews. It has been suggested that Prophet Muhammad mixed Biblical stories, namely the Jewish myths of the Tower of Babel and the story of Esther and Moses into a single confused account when composing the Qur'an." This Biblical error was only exposed with the rediscovery of the Rosetta Stone in 1799.
Link

So the question for you is, why didn't Muhammad copy the mistakes which are found in the Bible as well?

Last edited by mikeb768; 20th December 2013 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:12 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Scorpion, the method you have adopted seems to be, "If I can demonstrate one solid, factual error, then I have grounds to throw the whole thing out."

But, when I use your method on what you wrote (your first listed claim) and find that you have made an error, shouldn't I throw out everything else you claim as well?

Should I be expected to research all your claims, having found fault in the very first? At what point will the exercise end?

Here is an alternative for you. If you can find one single passage in the Quran that speaks to your heart, from Allah, then treasure that passage and hold it as your own - a gift from God. Instead of looking for the dirt, seek ye the ore and mine that.

One does not say of corn, "I cannot eat the roots, I cannot eat the stalk, I cannot eat the cob - this plant is worthless." That man will starve. Let me invite you to forgo the spiritual starvation that comes from your method of criticism.
The sidetrack by Mikeb aside, the above is what I support.

Destroying is easy, constructing takes effort.

I would deftly be your opponent were you to defend your own claims on a deity, but that is because you can defend your claims in that case.

Too often I see a ganging up on someone. That might win the argument, but nobody gains any insight.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:15 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
So, the proof that the Qur'an is wrong is both that it copies from the Bible, and that it doesn't copy from the Bible?
No. That it, just like the Bible, fails to prove it's claims.

I picked Isa because that is a well-known common case.

But my argument is that I can start out with the premisse that it contains errors unless there is a complete list of proofs for each claim it makes.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:19 PM   #100
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Mikeb768, since it is obvious nobody could ever live to be 950 years old, it is fairly certain that to claim Noah lived to 950 years is a mistake.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:20 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
How about the claim that Isa (Jesus) existed?

Christians can't and since the story of Isa is a fork from the biblical Jesus the Quran can't.
Mind you, the one that makes a claim needs to provide proof.
So until that proof is provided I can quite safely say it is incorrect.

Or, to make a more blanket statement: It claims the existence of a deity.
As long as there is no proof, I can still say it is incorrect.

It is these holy scriptures that claim things, therefore they need to provide the proof.

So, unless you have an extensive list of rigorous proof for every claim made in the Quran (remember, it claims to be the truth) what you are asking is a silly reversal of the burden of proof.
How have you managed to disprove that Jesus existed?
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:26 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us?
The rest of us seems pretty convinced that there are clear mistakes. It's likely only you who isn't. And not just errors in the book itself, but also clear errors in your apologetic rubbish.

If you don't believe me, just start a poll -- you can do that with this board software.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:30 PM   #103
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Oh, and I know a clear mistake: That part* where Muhammed makes the Christian trinity out to consist of the Father, the Son, and Mary. Sure, it is phrased as a question, but that is irrelevant with certain types of question.

ETA: And what a blunder it is. The universe, modern science and stuff ... It's surely forgivable if ancient, religious people weren't so firm with that. But fundamental concepts of big religions? No, this is just unforgivable.


(*I hope that was the Quran, and not something else, whatever this stuff is called)

Last edited by Lord Emsworth; 20th December 2013 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:31 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post

Also the idea that the Quran was copied from the Bible has long sense been debunked.
The quran is absolutely filled with brief references to bible characters, most of them obvious myths, stated as facts in the quran.

For example there is Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, all in the quran as history when they are obvious myths.

Here is a list of the bible characters in the quran. As can be seen the list is extensive. What is more most of the references are just name dropping with no details of the narratives in the bible.

Aaron, 4:163, 6:84, 7:122, 7:142, 7:150, 7:172, 10:75, 19:53, 20:30, 20:40, 20:90, 20:92, 21:48, 23:45, 25:35, 26:12, 26:48, 28:34, 37:114-120

Abraham, 2:124-129, 2:130-132, 2:135, 2:136, 2:140, 2:258, 2:260, 3:65, 3:67-68, 3:84, 3:95, 3:97, 4:54-55, 4:125, 4:163, 6:74-83, 6:161, 9:70, 9:114, 11:69-76, 12:6, 12:38, 14:35, 15:51-56, 16:120, 16:123, 19:41-49, 19:58, 21:51-73, 22:26, 22:43, 22:78, 26:69, 29:16, 29:25, 29:31, 33:7, 37:83-109, 38:45, 42:13, 43:26, 51:24-34, 53:37, 57:26, 60:4-5, 87:19

Adam, 2:31-32, 3:33, 5:27, 7:19-25, 17:61, 17:70, 18:50, 19:58, 20:115-123, 40:31, 41:13, 41:15

Cain and Abel, 5:27-31

David, 4:163, 5:78, 6:84, 17:55, 21:78, 21:79, 27:15-16, 34:10, 34:13, 38:17, 38:21-26, 38:30

Elijah, 6:85, 37:123-130

Isaac, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:84, 11:71, 12:5, 12:6, 12:38, 14:39, 21:72, 37:112-113, 38:45

Ishmael, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:86, 14:39, 21:85, 37:102-109, 38:48

Jacob (Israel), 3:84, 4:163, 6:84, 6:85, 11:71, 12:38, 12:68, 19:6, 19:49-50, 19:58, 21:72

Jesus, 4:163, 9:30, 9:31, 10:68, 19:30-34, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 61:6, 61:14

Job, 4:163, 6:84, 21:83, 38:41-44

John the Baptist, 3:38-40, 6:85, 6:86, 19:7-15, 21:90

Jonah, 4:163, 6:86, 10:98, 21:87, 37:139-148, 68:48

Joseph, 6:84, 12:4-101, 12:102, 40:34

Mary, 3:34-37, 3:42-47, 4:156-157, 4:171, 5:17, 5:46, 5:72, 5:78, 5:110, 5:112, 5:114, 5:116, 9:31, 19:16-39, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 43:57, 56:27, 61:6, 61:14, 66:12

Moses, 3:84, 6:84, 6:91, 7:103-162, 10:75-93, 11:96, 11:110, 14:5, 14:6, 14:8, 17:2, 17:101-104, 18:60-82, 19:51-53, 20:9-98, 21:48, 22:44, 23:45-49, 25:35, 26:10-66, 27:7-14, 28:3-43, 28:44, 28:48, 28:76, 29:39, 32:23, 33:7, 33:69, 37:114-120, 40:23-27, 40:53, 41:45, 42:13, 43:46-55, 44:17-36, 46:12, 46:30, 51:38-40, 53:36, 61:5, 79:14-25, 87:19

Noah, 3:33, 6:84, 7:59-64, 7:69, 9:70, 10:71, 11:25-33, 11:36-48, 11:89, 14:9, 17:3, 17:17, 19:58, 21:76, 22:42, 23:23-29, 25:37, 26:105-120, 29:14, 37:75-79, 38:12, 40:5, 40:31, 42:13, 50:12, 51:46, 53:52, 54:9, 57:26, 66:10

Pharaoh, 7:104-137, 8:52, 8:54, 10:75-90, 11:97, 14:6, 20:24, 20:43, 20:56, 20:60, 20:78, 23:46, 26:10-66, 27:12, 28:3-42, 29:39, 38:12, 40:24-46, 43:46-85, 44:17, 44:31, 50:13, 51:38-40, 54:41-42, 66:11, 69:9, 73:15-16, 79:17-25, 85:18

Saul, 2:247, 2:249

Solomon, 2:101, 4:163, 6:84, 21:78, 21:79, 21:81, 27:15-21, 34:12-14

Zachariah, 3:37-41, 6:85, 19:2-12
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:31 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post

How have you managed to disprove that Jesus existed?
Nope. Don't need to. I am not the one claiming he did exist.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:34 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Mikeb768, since it is obvious nobody could ever live to be 950 years old, it is fairly certain that to claim Noah lived to 950 years is a mistake.
Presumably the amount of time which constituted a year was much less than what we're familiar with, measured on a lunar cycle perhaps?

Merely conjecture on my part, but if 1 Julian calendar year= (for example) 10 of these hypothetical years, then Noah lived to be 95. Still seems unlikely but not impossible. Just a thought.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:35 PM   #107
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or maybe it was a typo
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:40 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
Scorpion, the method you have adopted seems to be, "If I can demonstrate one solid, factual error, then I have grounds to throw the whole thing out."

But, when I use your method on what you wrote (your first listed claim) and find that you have made an error, shouldn't I throw out everything else you claim as well?

Should I be expected to research all your claims, having found fault in the very first? At what point will the exercise end?

Here is an alternative for you. If you can find one single passage in the Quran that speaks to your heart, from Allah, then treasure that passage and hold it as your own - a gift from God. Instead of looking for the dirt, seek ye the ore and mine that.
I will throw out anything that is provably false, especially when it makes God out to be a sadistic monster, like the quran does.
I used to go to white eagle lodge, which is a spiritualist temple, and I found it very uplifting. I purchased all the books and read them for years. Then one day I found a passage in one that said there were people on Mars and Venus. I promptly sold the entire book collection.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:43 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Mikeb768, since it is obvious nobody could ever live to be 950 years old, it is fairly certain that to claim Noah lived to 950 years is a mistake.
Do they have the whole flood story? If so, oh vey!
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:53 PM   #110
Craig4
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
Why do people continue to make this claim "the Quran is incorrect in a lot of things" without providing any actual support?

Many websites which make claims like:
1,000 errors in the Quran!
100,000 errors in the Quran!
1,000,000 errors in the Quran!
All seem to come up short after the claims are further evaluated.

Maybe if someone was to just provide "1" good error (try taking the quality over quantity approach)?

If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us? So far the only supported claim in this entire thread seems to be one that the Quran makes regarding the sun and moon having an orbit. Which is something which has over time clearly been determined to be true.

Until then...
http://s30.postimg.org/opgnna941/timeline.png
Prove Angels exist and that Mohamed took dictation from one.
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Old 20th December 2013, 04:59 PM   #111
Scorpion
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Originally Posted by Lord Emsworth View Post
Do they have the whole flood story? If so, oh vey!
The story of the flood from the quran.

11.37. "But construct an Ark under Our eyes and Our inspiration, and address Me no (further) on behalf of those who are in sin: for they are about to be overwhelmed (in the Flood)."
11.38. Forthwith he starts constructing the Ark: every time that the Chiefs of his People passed by him, they threw ridicule on him. They threw ridicule on him. He said: "If ye ridicule us now, we (in our turn) can look down on you with ridicule likewise!
11.39. "But soon will ye know who it is on whom will descend a Penalty that will cover them with shame on whom will be unloosed a Penalty lasting."
11.40. At length behold! There came Our Command, and the fountains of the earth gushed forth! We said: "Embark therein of each kind two, male and female, and your family except those against whom the Word has already gone forth and the Believers." But only a few believed with him.
11.41. So he said: "Embark ye on the Ark in the name of Allah, whether it move or be at rest! For my Lord is, be sure, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful!"
11.42. So the Ark floated with them on the waves (towering) like mountains, and Noah called out to his son, who had separated himself (from the rest): "O my son! Embark with us, and be not with the Unbelievers!"
11.43. The son replied: "I will be take myself to some mountain: it will save me from the water." Noah said: "This day nothing can save, from the Command of Allah, any but those on whom He hath mercy!"? and the waves came between them, and the son was among those overwhelmed in the Flood.
11.44. When the word went forth: "O earth! swallow up thy water, and O sky! withhold (thy rain)!" and the water abated, and the matter was ended. The Ark rested on Mount Judi, and the word went forth: "Away with those who do wrong!"
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:00 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
A second error in the quran is that it includes a story about Jesus childhood which is copied from an early book of fables.

The story in the quran concerning Jesus childhood, about an incident where he makes a clay bird and brings it to life is not a part of the Christian bible, and the original texts are considered apocryphal. They are regarded by Christian scholars as having been written in around 150AD, as propaganda by the early Christians, attempting to fill in the missing years of Jesus life.

The following are two verses in the quran that contain the references.
From the Yusuf Ali translation.

003.049 "And (appoint him) an apostle to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by God's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by God's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in
your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

005.110 Then will God say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold ! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

As can be seen the quran speaks of only one bird, and says Jesus breathed life into it. But the only historical text that contains such a story speaks of 12 birds, and they were brought to life by Jesus commanding them to "Go". Therefore the quran does not even get the facts of the original fictional document correct. Added to this the New Testament states that Jesus did his first miracle at a time he was around thirty years old. (John 2.11)

Here is the relevant text, translated from Greek and written in, The Apocryphal New Testament, by M.R.James, published by Oxford:Clarendon press, 1924.
The stories of Thomas the Israelite, (not St Thomas of the bible) the philosopher, concerning the works of the childhood of the Lord.

1. I, Thomas the Israelite, tell you, and all the brethren that are Gentile, the works of the childhood of our Lord Jesus Christ and his mighty deeds, and all that he did when he was born in our land.
2.1 This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the water that flowed there into pools, and made them clean, and commanded them by his word alone.
2.2 Having made soft clay, he fashioned twelve sparrows. It was the Sabbath when he did these things. And there were also many other little children playing with him.
2.3. A certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed and told his father Joseph: your child is at the brook, and he has taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and has polluted the Sabbath day.
2.4. Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Why do you do these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping.
2.5 when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

There is a reference to this story, and the flaws in it in the book.
The original sources of the quran. by William St Clair Tisdall.
This book is in the public domain and can be found on the Internet.
Just to put on my tinfoil turban for two seconds:

Could that be a poetic retelling of the heavenly dove descending on a man and bestowing Divine Grace that happens at Jesus' Baptism in Mark?

The adoptionist theology of a normal man (clay, as per Genesis) endowed with God's power on Earth? As opposed to the High Christology of the Roman Church of the time?
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:03 PM   #113
mikeb768
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
Nope. Don't need to. I am not the one claiming he did exist.
Do you have any evidence to show that your
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great grandfather also existed?

I'm going to guess "No", but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't deny his existence?
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:06 PM   #114
Craig4
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
Do you have any evidence to show that your
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great grandfather also existed?

I'm going to guess "No", but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't deny his existence?
Well, since he exists, yes, rather good evidence.
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:12 PM   #115
realpaladin
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post

Do you have any evidence to show that your
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great,
great grandfather also existed?

I'm going to guess "No", but I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't deny his existence?
The process of human reproduction has as a precondition that there is ancestral biological material.
So, depending on how far back you want to go, the causal nature of this process makes for an undeniable spot in the evolutionary tree.

It does not matter whether I deny it or not ; the process has a provable causality.

I fail to see how this will help you to make your point, so please enlighten me.

Edit : so yes, I have incontrovertible proof that he existed.
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Last edited by realpaladin; 20th December 2013 at 05:14 PM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:13 PM   #116
marplots
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I will throw out anything that is provably false, especially when it makes God out to be a sadistic monster, like the quran does.
I used to go to white eagle lodge, which is a spiritualist temple, and I found it very uplifting. I purchased all the books and read them for years. Then one day I found a passage in one that said there were people on Mars and Venus. I promptly sold the entire book collection.
So long as you submit to that same standard, that I should throw out all you say if I once detect error, I cannot complain that you are being inconsistent or hypocritical.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:16 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."
This will be the moment you pull your silver Desert Eagle from your belt and get all righteous on our behinds?

Sorry, could not resist ;-)
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:20 PM   #118
marplots
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
This will be the moment you pull your silver Desert Eagle from your belt and get all righteous on our behinds?

Sorry, could not resist ;-)
Man, I wish. You know how much those things are worth? Serious buckos.

Turns out my wrists are too "girly" to shoot one though.

On topic, I'm an atheist. That doesn't mean I can't find a few worthwhile nuggets in someone's holy text. It would be a true miracle to write a volume that big and have absolutely nothing of merit in it.
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:23 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The quran is absolutely filled with brief references to bible characters, most of them obvious myths, stated as facts in the quran.

For example there is Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, all in the quran as history when they are obvious myths.

Here is a list of the bible characters in the quran. As can be seen the list is extensive. What is more most of the references are just name dropping with no details of the narratives in the bible.

Aaron, 4:163, 6:84, 7:122, 7:142, 7:150, 7:172, 10:75, 19:53, 20:30, 20:40, 20:90, 20:92, 21:48, 23:45, 25:35, 26:12, 26:48, 28:34, 37:114-120

Abraham, 2:124-129, 2:130-132, 2:135, 2:136, 2:140, 2:258, 2:260, 3:65, 3:67-68, 3:84, 3:95, 3:97, 4:54-55, 4:125, 4:163, 6:74-83, 6:161, 9:70, 9:114, 11:69-76, 12:6, 12:38, 14:35, 15:51-56, 16:120, 16:123, 19:41-49, 19:58, 21:51-73, 22:26, 22:43, 22:78, 26:69, 29:16, 29:25, 29:31, 33:7, 37:83-109, 38:45, 42:13, 43:26, 51:24-34, 53:37, 57:26, 60:4-5, 87:19

Adam, 2:31-32, 3:33, 5:27, 7:19-25, 17:61, 17:70, 18:50, 19:58, 20:115-123, 40:31, 41:13, 41:15

Cain and Abel, 5:27-31

David, 4:163, 5:78, 6:84, 17:55, 21:78, 21:79, 27:15-16, 34:10, 34:13, 38:17, 38:21-26, 38:30

Elijah, 6:85, 37:123-130

Isaac, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:84, 11:71, 12:5, 12:6, 12:38, 14:39, 21:72, 37:112-113, 38:45

Ishmael, 2:136, 2:140, 3:84, 4:163, 6:86, 14:39, 21:85, 37:102-109, 38:48

Jacob (Israel), 3:84, 4:163, 6:84, 6:85, 11:71, 12:38, 12:68, 19:6, 19:49-50, 19:58, 21:72

Jesus, 4:163, 9:30, 9:31, 10:68, 19:30-34, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 61:6, 61:14

Job, 4:163, 6:84, 21:83, 38:41-44

John the Baptist, 3:38-40, 6:85, 6:86, 19:7-15, 21:90

Jonah, 4:163, 6:86, 10:98, 21:87, 37:139-148, 68:48

Joseph, 6:84, 12:4-101, 12:102, 40:34

Mary, 3:34-37, 3:42-47, 4:156-157, 4:171, 5:17, 5:46, 5:72, 5:78, 5:110, 5:112, 5:114, 5:116, 9:31, 19:16-39, 21:91, 23:50, 33:7, 43:57, 56:27, 61:6, 61:14, 66:12

Moses, 3:84, 6:84, 6:91, 7:103-162, 10:75-93, 11:96, 11:110, 14:5, 14:6, 14:8, 17:2, 17:101-104, 18:60-82, 19:51-53, 20:9-98, 21:48, 22:44, 23:45-49, 25:35, 26:10-66, 27:7-14, 28:3-43, 28:44, 28:48, 28:76, 29:39, 32:23, 33:7, 33:69, 37:114-120, 40:23-27, 40:53, 41:45, 42:13, 43:46-55, 44:17-36, 46:12, 46:30, 51:38-40, 53:36, 61:5, 79:14-25, 87:19

Noah, 3:33, 6:84, 7:59-64, 7:69, 9:70, 10:71, 11:25-33, 11:36-48, 11:89, 14:9, 17:3, 17:17, 19:58, 21:76, 22:42, 23:23-29, 25:37, 26:105-120, 29:14, 37:75-79, 38:12, 40:5, 40:31, 42:13, 50:12, 51:46, 53:52, 54:9, 57:26, 66:10

Pharaoh, 7:104-137, 8:52, 8:54, 10:75-90, 11:97, 14:6, 20:24, 20:43, 20:56, 20:60, 20:78, 23:46, 26:10-66, 27:12, 28:3-42, 29:39, 38:12, 40:24-46, 43:46-85, 44:17, 44:31, 50:13, 51:38-40, 54:41-42, 66:11, 69:9, 73:15-16, 79:17-25, 85:18

Saul, 2:247, 2:249

Solomon, 2:101, 4:163, 6:84, 21:78, 21:79, 21:81, 27:15-21, 34:12-14

Zachariah, 3:37-41, 6:85, 19:2-12
This is a silly approach, you are trying to claim that every person who is mentioned in the Bible are all only fictional characters and the Quran came along and copied these fictional characters. In order for your claim to hold any merit you have to deny a great deal historical events and the genealogy / lineage of a large multitude of people.

The people of Canaan
Jewish History
Roman History

Just to name a few things.
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:26 PM   #120
mikeb768
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Originally Posted by realpaladin View Post
The process of human reproduction has as a precondition that there is ancestral biological material.
So, depending on how far back you want to go, the causal nature of this process makes for an undeniable spot in the evolutionary tree.

It does not matter whether I deny it or not ; the process has a provable causality.

I fail to see how this will help you to make your point, so please enlighten me.

Edit : so yes, I have incontrovertible proof that he existed.
I see, so you have no proof but you still believe?
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