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Old 20th December 2013, 05:27 PM   #121
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
On topic, I'm an atheist. That doesn't mean I can't find a few worthwhile nuggets in someone's holy text. It would be a true miracle to write a volume that big and have absolutely nothing of merit in it.
And that merits an amen!

Also, being wrong is not necessarily the same as being a bad person.
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Old 20th December 2013, 05:31 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post

I see, so you have no proof but you still believe?
Unless there you do not believe in biology I just gave you proof that fulfills all criteria of being unmistakable and incontrovertible proof.

The provable causality of the process leaves neither room for speculation nor belief.

You *do* know where babies come from?
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Old 20th December 2013, 06:13 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
I see, so you have no proof but you still believe?
He has proof. He exists. Could there be better proof?
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Old 20th December 2013, 06:41 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
Yeah, that thread was actually pretty good.

Although even scientists seem to agree regarding the similitude of Black holes which are often found at the center of galaxies and that of ocean eddies (An eddy is a circular current of water).

"Ocean Eddies Are Mathematically Equivalent to Black Holes", the research which was used to come to this determination was conducted by George Haller, Professor of Nonlinear Dynamics at ETH Zurich, and Francisco Beron-Vera, Research Professor of Oceanography at the University of Miami.
Link

Anyone notice a Similarity?
Ha ha, no, I meant you ought to know from experience what it's like to start a thread, only to find out the point you're trying to make can't be supported.

Carry on then.
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Old 20th December 2013, 06:47 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by Frozenwolf150 View Post
Ha ha, no, I meant you ought to know from experience what it's like to start a thread, only to find out the point you're trying to make can't be supported.

Carry on then.
Actually the support for the things which I mentioned are found right there the OP.

Last edited by mikeb768; 20th December 2013 at 06:48 PM.
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Old 20th December 2013, 07:15 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
Actually the support for the things which I mentioned are found right there the OP.
That perhaps is one way of looking at it.
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Old 20th December 2013, 07:29 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
I see, so you have no proof but you still believe?
Being that he exists then it's safe to bet his great x whatever grandfather existed.

However religious characters do not have that same luxury, they only exist within their story books
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Old 20th December 2013, 08:10 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by mikeb768 View Post
... If you or others think you have managed to find a real error, then please share it with the rest of us?
Apart from the sun setting in a muddy pond, which I have already referred to, there is a notorious misidentification of Jesus' mother with Moses' sister, who has the same name.
Quote:
At length she brought (the babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms), They said: "O Mary! Truly a strange thing has thou brought! "O sister of Aaron, thy father was not a man of evil, nor your mother a woman unchaste!"
-- Sura 19:27-28
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Old 21st December 2013, 11:30 AM   #129
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Mikeb768, was there a point to that question or were you just concerned about my genealogy?

As for Scorpion, your belief has nothing to gain from comparisons with others.

Let your actions be the measure to which we judge your beliefs.

Religions are not game consoles.
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Old 5th October 2017, 10:44 AM   #130
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Just resurrecting this thread to see if it has nay more life in it.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 5th October 2017, 11:37 AM   #131
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Muslims are fond of saying that the quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the bible.

In fact there is a hadith in which Muhammad sends for the Torah to have it read to him, to decide the fate of a Jew and Jewess for commiting adultery, and because the Torah says the punishment is stoning Muhammad had them stoned. This proves he knew the bible well.

Here are three verses in the quran that mention the psalms of the bible by name.


004.163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Messengers after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.

017.055 And it is your Lord that knoweth best all beings that are in the heavens and on earth: We did bestow on some prophets more (and other) gifts than on others: and We gave to David (the gift of) the Psalms.

021.105 Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."

In any case the quran mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.

sura 3.48 sura 4.54 sura 11.17 sura 11.110 sura 19.41 sura 17.2 sura 17.4 sura 23.49 sura 25.35 sura 40.53 sura 41.45 sura 45.16 sura 46.12 sura 53.36 sura 87.19 sura 28.2 sura 32.2 sura

The Greek bible was readily avaliable long before Muhammads time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the quran quotes bible story after bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously no part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda.
There has been much work done on bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the quran claims them all as a previous message from God.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 5th October 2017, 11:50 AM   #132
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Is the Quran the words of God?

My answer to that question is a definite no, but I do not expect anyone to take my word for it, so I have embarked upon my own analysis. I am writing criticism of verses that have room for factual observations. They are not in any order, as I choose a subject and do some work on it, but eventually I expect to nail together all the paragraphs I produce as an anonymous e-book.
So without further preamble, here is a piece on Sura 22.5.

Quran sura 22.5 O Mankind! if ye have a doubt about the resurrection (consider) that we created you out of dust, then out of sperm, then out of a leech like clot, then out of a morsel of flesh partly formed and partly unformed, in order that we may manifest (our power) to you. And we cause whom we will to rest in the wombs for an appropriate term. Then do we bring you out as babes, then (foster you) That ye may reach your age of full strength; Translated By Yusuf Ali.

Anyone who believes this brief verse in the quran referring to the embryo is a revelation from God should study the writings of Galen. He was born in AD129 and his writings are a truly staggering insight into the workings of the human body for such a time. He discusses the function of the womb and the uterus, and the development of the embryo and foetus. Most of his knowledge came from observation and the dissection of animals, and most of his false assumptions doubtlessly come from the fact he did not dissect human bodies.
His works were originally written in Greek, but were translated into Latin and Arabic. Such knowledge was in the world 500 years before Muhammad's time, and Hippocrates made astounding medical observations one thousand years before Muhammad. Since sura 22 was reputedlty revealed in Madinah, or during the later Makkan period Muhammad had already spent ten years or more aquiring the spoils of War, and it is known that books were highly prised items, so knowledge of Galen's writings could have been acquired from looted manuscripts.

Here are some brief extracts from Galens, On the natural faculties, book3. These texts being rich in detailed factual observations.

"For, as we know it takes nine months in most women for the foetus to attain maturity in the womb, this organ having its neck quite closed, and entirely surrounding the embryo together with the chorion."

The following quote shows Galen fully understood the role of sex in the reproductive process.

"The women believe they have received the semen which comes from the male, and they are retaining it."

Finally Galen shows that Hippocrates(c 460-c370 BC) before him was aware of details of pregnancy 500 years earlier.

"Hippocrates, who was the first of all physicians and philosophers to declare that the os uteri closes during pregnancy and inflammation."

Predating this detailed Greek scientific knowledge formed from observation and dissection of near human animals, the bible itself shows knowledge of the womb and conception.

The word womb appears 71 times in the King James Bible. Here are some pertinent extracts.

OT Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly, I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

OT Hosea 9:14 Give them, O Lord; what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

NT Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

NT Luke 1:41 And it came to pass, that when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost.

Here is one of many verses that states man was formed from dust.
OT Genesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the Ground,
The bible also talks of the seed of copulation at Leviticus 15:16 and 15:17 and 15:18. So there is no revelation in using the word sperm, and in fact other English translations, such as Pickthall use the word seed, not sperm, so the exact translation of the Arabic word makes no difference to the implication that such knowledge was in the world.
In short there is no new information in the quran concerning the birth process, unless one claims that the mention of a leech like clot of blood is a revelation that describes a new embryo. But for a man who had eleven wives, and was fully aware of the links between menstrual blood, and the lack of it during pregnancy, it only took one miscarriage for him to see a tiny foetus for himself. Therefore verse 22.5 of the quran did not require any revelation from God, as Muhammad could have been well aware of most of what is involved in the natural process of gestation.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 5th October 2017, 01:14 PM   #133
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Bible god is an immoral thug, so he who is without sin and all that palaver.
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Old 5th October 2017, 01:44 PM   #134
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Interesting thread Scorpion and very scholarly of you to go into these divine utterances in such detail.

I agree with you about the impact it may have on Islam if these supposed "Words of God" are exposed as just BS.

On another thread "Quo Vadis Islam" I raised this question after listening to a Sam Harris podcast where he interviews one Sarah Haider, (Ex-Muslims of North America).

Sarah was skeptical about the possibility of reform in Islam due to the inflexibility one faces when trying to interpret the Koran. As distinct from the Bible the Koran is meant to be the actual word of God. Only some small parts of the Bible are.
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Old 5th October 2017, 07:06 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by A'isha View Post
I don't think your posts actually count as "criticism of the Qur'an". That would be more like these books.
What about Tom Holland?

I think he pointed out that the hadith were written down something like 200 years later so it is not likely to be an authoritative source. He points out the complete lack of sources from the 7th century. Some of the surprising things were that when Arabs took control of Jerusalem just 6 years after Muhammad's death, nothing about either Muhammad or Islam was mentioned. I think the earliest mention was more than 50 years after Muhammad's death. That's reminiscent of Jesus and Christianity. He also suggested that the Quran was actually written in Persia and takes ideas from Zoroastrianism. As I recall, even those who support the Quran admit that the place mentioned can't be Mecca since fields of grain, grape vines, and olive trees are mentioned.

Last edited by barehl; 5th October 2017 at 07:16 PM.
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Old 6th October 2017, 09:40 AM   #136
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The Sun and Moon in the quran

Sura 21.33 And he it is who created the night and the day, and the Sun and the Moon. They float, each in an orbit.

sura 36.38 And the Sun runs on unto a resting place for him, That is the measuring of the mighty and wise.
sura 36.39 And for the Moon. We have appointed mansions till she return like an old shriveled leaf
Sura 36.40 It is not for the Sun to overtake the Moon,nor does the night outstrip the day. They float, each in an orbit.
39.5 He created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): He makes the Night overlap the Day, and the Day overlap the Night: He has subjected the sun and the moon (to His law): Each one follows a course for a time appointed. Is not He the Exalted in Power - He Who forgives again and again?



The quran is clearly stating that the Sun has an orbit and the only realistic meaning of these verses is that Muhammed believed the Sun orbits the earth. Those that claim this shows incredible insight by Muhammed who realized the Sun had an orbit in the galaxy are talking rubbish. The quran shows clearly the limits of Muhammeds knowledge.
For one thing the Sun and Moon meet at every eclipse, for another there is often a visible Moon during the day, so day and night are not so separate as the quran suggests. The verse about the Moon shriveling shows no knowledge of the fact the light of the Sun is illuminating it from a different angle.
The Sun also does not run to a resting place, not unless you believe Greek mythology. Besides the quran goes on to say.

sura 25.61 Blessed be he who has placed in the heaven mansions of stars, and has placed therin a great lamp and a moon giving light.

sura 71.16 And has made the Moon a light therein, and made the Sun a lamp.

These verses show Muhammed calls the Moon a light, which makes clear he did not know it was reflecting the Suns light. He clearly regards the Sun and Moon as separate sources of light, one for the day and the other for night.

Sura 81.1 When the Sun is overthrown.
sura 81.2 And when the Stars fall.

The Stars will never fall as they are outside our gravity. In fact the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate. But Muhammed thinks the Stars are just lamps to throw at devils, not distant Suns. as proved below.

Sura 67.5 And verily we have beautified the worlds heaven with lamps. And we have made them missiles for devils.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 6th October 2017, 09:42 AM   #137
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It is clear that the quran is echoing the bible on the matter of the six days of creation, and the bible also says that a day in the sight of God is as a thousand years to us. This means that both the bible and the quran are saying that God created the heaven and earth in six thousand years. As this is obviously not the case, I put it to you that the real source of the creation myth as it appears in the quran is in fact the bible.
We know the universe has existed for around fourteen billion years, and we have hubble space telescope pictures of the edge of the universe to prove it.
We also know that the age of the earth is around four billion years, so we know that the universe existed for ten billion years before the earth was formed. We also know that the earth is made of atoms that were formed in the first stars, and ejected into space after they exploded. So planets could not even have been created for the first few billion years of the universe, because there were no heavy atoms in existence. So the bible is wrong and the quran exactly repeats this mythology.

Quran, sura 7.54 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Quran, sura 10.3 Lo! your Lord is Allah who created the heaven and earth in six days.

Quran, sura 11.7 And He it is. Who created the heavens and the earth in six days.

Quran, sura 25.59 Who created the heaven and earth and all that is between them in six days.

Quran, sura 50.38 And surely We created the heaven and earth, and all that is between them, in six days.

Quran, sura 57.4 He it is Who created the heaven and earth in six days.

Quran, sura 22.47 A day in the sight of the Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning.

Quran, sura 32.4 Allah it is who created the heaven and earth, and that which is between them, in six days. The he mounted the throne. You have not beside him a protecting friend or mediator. Will you not then remember?

Quran, sura 32.5 He directs the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascends unto him, in a day whereof the measure is a thousand years of that you reckon.

Here are the bible sources for these texts.

Bible, Genesis 1.31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Bible 2Peter 3.8 But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is as with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 6th October 2017, 09:43 AM   #138
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I have found many bible myths repeated in the quran, and these in themselves are unbelievable, but there are Arab myths too.
According to Arab mythology a man that preceded Muhammad called Salih, said he was a prophet too, and the people did not believe him . So he split a rock and produce a she camel. Then the people of Thamud hamstrung the camel, so Allah destroyed them. The details of this story are absent from the quran but it is mentioned. Like most of the bible references in the quran there are no details or narratives given.
Here is the Pickthall translation of the quranic references to Thamud, the she camel.

007:073 And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other God save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.

011:064 O my people! This is the camel of Allah, a token unto you, so suffer her to feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with harm lest a near torment seize you.

026:155 He said: (Behold) this she-camel. She hath the right to drink (at the well), and ye have the right to drink, (each) on an appointed day.


091:013 And the messenger of Allah said: It is the she-camel of Allah, so let her drink!
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
Sri Ramakrishna
Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 6th October 2017, 09:47 AM   #139
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For those that wish to study the quran and are new to it, I recommend reading the suras in the reverse order, starting from the back at reading sura 114, and continuing through the suras in the reverse order. The shortest suras are at the back, and they are mostly the first verses that were written anyway.
The first verse that leaps out at you in the reverse reading of the quran is sura 111. The following is the five lines of the verse with comments about their meaning by Yusuf Ali.
It would seem to me to be one of the most damning suras in the quran, which tells the whole story of Muhammads real nature, and the source of his knowledge of the bible. He curses his own uncle to death and to burning hell, and his aunt with him.
The reason is because his uncle refused to accept him as a prophet, and that may well be because it was his uncle who taught him the bible stories, therefore he knew Muhammad did not get any information from the angel Gabriel.

sura 111, know as, (the plaited rope) or Al Lahab (the flame)
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

111.1. Perish the hands of the Father of Flame! Perish he!

111.2. No profit to him from all his wealth, and all his gains!

111.3. Burnt soon will he be in a fire of blazing flame!

Comment: Abu Lahab, "Father of Flame", was the nick-name of an uncle of the holy Prophet, from his fiery hot temper and his ruddy complexion. He was one of the most inveterate enemies of early Islam. When the holy Prophet called together the Quraish and his own kith and kin to come and listen to his preaching and his warning against the sins of his people, the "Father of Flame" flared up and cursed the holy Prophet, saying "Perdition to thee!" According to the English saying, "the causeless curse will not come". His words were futile, but his power and strength were equally futile. The star of Islam rose higher and higher every day, and its persecuters dwindled in strength and power. Many of the leaders of persecution perished at Badr, and Abu Lahab himself perished a week after Badr, consumed with grief and his own fiery passions. Verse 3 was prophetic of his end in this very life, though it also refers to the Hereafter.


111.4. His wife shall carry the (crackling) wood - As fuel!-

111.5. A twisted rope of palm-leaf fibre around her (own) neck!

Comment: Abu Lahab's wife was a woman of equally passionate spite and cruelty against the sacred person of the holy Prophet. She used to tie bundles of thorns with ropes of twisted palm-leaf fibre and carry them and strew them about on dark nights in the paths which the Prophet was expected to take, in order to cause him bodily injury. "To carry firewood" may also be symbolical for carrying tales between people to embroil them. This was also one of her vices. But she was laying up for herself another kind of Fire and another kind of Rope, the Fire of Punishment, and the Rope of Slavery to Evil. Thus does Evil prepare its own fate. This is the general lesson of sustained craft and cruel wrong-doing recoiling on the wrong-doer's head. See also Introduction to this Sura.


The following is from Maududi's comments on sura 111

Wherever the Holy Prophet went to preach his message of Islam, this man followed him and forbade the people to listen to him. Rabiah bin Abbad ad- Dill has related:"I was a young boy when I accompanied my father to the face of Dhul-Majaz. There I saw the Holy Messenger (may peace be upon him) who was exhorting the people, saying: 'O people, say: there is no deity but Allah, you will attain success.'Following behind him I saw a man, who was telling the people; `This fellow is a liar: he has gone astray from his ancestral faith.' I asked; who is he?The people replied: He is his uncle, Abu Lahab." (Musnad Ahmad, Baihaqi). Another tradition from Hadrat Rabiah is to the effect; "I saw that the Holy Prophet went to the halting place of each tribe and said: `O children of so and so, I have been appointed Allah's Messenger to you. I exhort you to worship only Allah and to associate none with Him. So, affirm faith in me and join me so that I may fulfill the mission for which I have been sent.'Following close behind him there was a man who was saying: `O children of so and so, he is leading you astray from Lat and Uzza and inviting you to the religion of error and innovation which he has brought. Do not at all listen to what he says and do not follow him.' I asked my father: who is he?He replied: he is his uncle, Abu Lahab." (Musnad Ahmad, Tabarani). Tariq bin Abdullah al-Muharibi's tradition is similar. He says: "I saw in the fare of Dhul-Majaz that the Holy Messenger (upon whom be peace) was exhorting the people, saying: `O people, say La ilaha ill-Allah, you will attain success', and behind him there was a man who was casting stones at him, until his heels bled, and he was telling the people: 'Do not listen to him, he is a liar.' I asked the people who he was. They said he was his uncle, Abu Lahab." (Tirmidhi).
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Old 6th October 2017, 09:52 AM   #140
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It is odd that you do not apply the same logic to the bible. After all, right from the get go the bible can't agree with itself and both accounts are wrong anyway. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 not only disagree, but neither can possibly be correct anyway.
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Old 6th October 2017, 10:01 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It is odd that you do not apply the same logic to the bible. After all, right from the get go the bible can't agree with itself and both accounts are wrong anyway. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 not only disagree, but neither can possibly be correct anyway.
I am not a bible scholar, and it does not bother me because criticising the bible is not my agenda. The bible has been criticised by experts for hundreds of years, and I think that its the time for the Quran to be subjected to the same kind of analysis. We might liberate the minds of some Muslims and undermine ISIS in their efforts to take over the west.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 6th October 2017, 10:04 AM   #142
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Muslims say that the Quran is a miracle, because it was dictated by an illiterate Arab who had no access to the Bible. Therefore it must have come from God. The Quran itself even says it must be from God, Because it confirms all the previous messages. But how would Muhammad know that if he had never heard the Bible.

The following are three verses in the Quran which refer to Muhammad being illiterate, in which I only quote the relevant text, leaving out the rest of the sura.

7.157 "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;

7.158 day: So believe in God and His Apostle, the Unlettered Prophet,

62.2 It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves:

But there are three verses in the Quran that mention the Psalms of the Bible by name. sura 4.163 sura 17.55 and sura 21.105

The Quran also mentions the Torah, or the books of Moses and Abraham at many verses; Here are some references.

sura 3.48 sura 4.54 sura 11.17 sura 11.110 sura 19.41 sura 17.2 sura 17.4 sura 23.49 sura 25.35 sura 40.53 sura 41.45 sura 45.16 sura 46.12 sura 53.36 sura 87.19 sura 28.2 sura 32.2 sura

Muslims will try to argue that Muhammad had no access to the bible, but the above references from the Quran show he was well aware of its existence.
The Greek Bible was readily available long before Muhammad's time, and it is well know that Muslim raiders took many manuscripts along with other plunder.
What is even more obvious is that the greater part of the Quran quotes Bible story after Bible story, and many of these quotes are about Jewish old Testament myths that are obviously not a part of real history, and their source can only be Jewish scribes that invented them to promote their own agenda. There has been much work done on Bible criticism, and some of it to show that the story of Noah's ark, and Jonah and the whale, and Adam and Eve, and the drowning of Pharaohs army, and such stories, have no foundation in reality. But the Quran claims them all as a previous message from God.

The following hadith shows that Muhammad sent for the torah and had it read out to him. It also shows his cruelty in having people stoned to death.


Bukhari
Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.




Therefore my conclusion is that Muhammad was well aware of the Bible, and even if he could not read, someone translated and read the Greek Bible to him.
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Old 6th October 2017, 10:10 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am not a bible scholar, and it does not bother me because criticising the bible is not my agenda. The bible has been criticised by experts for hundreds of years, and I think that its the time for the Quran to be subjected to the same kind of analysis. We might liberate the minds of some Muslims and undermine ISIS in their efforts to take over the west.
It very much is your agenda. The koran has been subject to plenty of critique up to and including the bloody murder of critics. And so has the bible.

You seem to be unaware that the critiques you offer apply equally to all the abrahamic religions and have been done to death so often that it is rather boring.
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Old 6th October 2017, 10:16 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Therefore my conclusion is that Muhammad was well aware of the Bible, and even if he could not read, someone translated and read the Greek Bible to him.
Super. What is your opinion of the barbarous scumbaggery as set forth in the bible?
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Old 6th October 2017, 10:35 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It very much is your agenda. The koran has been subject to plenty of critique up to and including the bloody murder of critics. And so has the bible.

You seem to be unaware that the critiques you offer apply equally to all the abrahamic religions and have been done to death so often that it is rather boring.
I have not seen much criticism of the Quran over past centuries. There is one book entitled ' the original sources of the Qur'an ' by William Tisdall.
I actually just got a copy of it in paperback, but I have read some of it before because it is available, free to read on the internet.

I am fully aware there is a direct correlation between the Quran and the bible.

It is my argument that Muhammad stole most of his material from the bible because it occurred to him he could scare people into following him by pretending to get a message from God.

The bible is obviously full of trash, but I am not bothered about that and I do not intend to study the bible to find flaws in it because it has been done by experts.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 6th October 2017, 10:40 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Super. What is your opinion of the barbarous scumbaggery as set forth in the bible?
Spiritualist teachings are that the bible is an ancient book largely full of myths, and there is no devil and there is no hellfire. I have heard mediums In trance say these things,and I accept these modern revelations over the texts of the bible.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 7th October 2017, 08:18 AM   #147
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In the following verse Muhammad reveals that people of his time thought someone was teaching him foreign texts. Ha! I had come to that conclusion myself, Just from reading the fourteen hundred year old texts.

Quran 16.103. We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
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Old 7th October 2017, 08:24 AM   #148
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Muhammad also says the Holy Spirit has brought the revelations, but he must have been refering to the Angel Gabriel, because he says at sura 2.97 it was he who revealed the quran to his heart. So Muhammad did not understand the bible references to the holy spirit.

16.101. When We substitute one revelation for another,- and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages),- they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them know not.

16.102. Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
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Old 7th October 2017, 08:28 AM   #149
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The quran states quite clearly that God is one, and it is a blasphemy to say Jesus is the son of God, at sura 5.72 and it is a blasphemy to say God is part of a trinity. at sura 5.73.

Sura 5.72 They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary"

Sura 5.73 They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no God except One God.

But the bible says you may be forgiven for blasphemy against Jesus, but to deny the Holy Ghost will not be forgiven. Therefore if the bible is right then Muhammad was an unforgivable blasphemer.
Only one book can be right, and there is no room for adjustment here. So it is quite clear that the quran does not confirm all the previous messages, as it claims to do at sura 10.37

Sura 10.37 This quran is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of revelations that went before it, and a fuller explanation.


It is clear where Muhammad got the idea of claiming he received the quran from the angel Gabriel in the bible, as the angel is sent to Zacharias to tell him of the coming of John the baptist at Luke 1.11 to 1.20 The angel Gabriel also visited Mary to tell her about Jesus at Luke 1.27

But the bible states that it was the Holy Ghost that spoke through Jesus, and later the through the disciples, so the angel Gabriel was not required to tell the word of God, as God himself in the form of the holy Ghost speaks with the mouth of his true messengers.
Therefore what doubt can there be that Muhammad invented a lie about God, and said he was told what was written on a tablet in heaven, and he remembered the message and passed it on to his followers. There can be no clearer indictment of Muhammad as a false prophet than the denial of the trinity, and the power of the holy spirit to speak through a true messenger.
Muhammad could not speak without thinking about his words, as he might contradict himself or make errors. Which of course, he did do anyway. But he gave himself time to go away and think up his next statement by claiming he had to get the message from Gabriel.


The following are the bible texts that state denying the Holy Ghost is an unforgivable sin, but denying Jesus is not.

Matthew:12:31: Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Matthew:12:32: And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew:3:29: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke:12:10: And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.


These are some more verses that explain the concept that the Holy Ghost is God within us. which is the message Muhammad denies, and for which there is no forgiveness.

1Co:6:19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Co:12:3: Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

1Jo:5:7: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.


The only conclusion anyone can really draw from this complete contradiction between the message of the New Testament, that the Holy Ghost enters true prophets, and God speaks through them, and the message of the quran that Muhammad claims he received as dictation from the angel Gabriel.
Is that Muhammad has committed the unforgivable blasphemy by denying The holy ghost and that Jesus was a part of God, and as a consequence denying the concept that God is within us all.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 7th October 2017, 08:56 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Is that Muhammad has committed the unforgivable blasphemy by denying The holy ghost and that Jesus was a part of God, and as a consequence denying the concept that God is within us all.
So Muhammad believed rubbish about various things, and you believe rubbish about various things, some the same rubbish and some different rubbish from what Muhammad believed.

The non believer doesn't care about these differences. Why refute the Quran by quoting from the NT? Why refute one unevidenced dogma by citing another unevidenced dogma? Take your dogmas to some fundie bible thumper blog, where they will be more appreciated.
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Old 7th October 2017, 09:45 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
So Muhammad believed rubbish about various things, and you believe rubbish about various things, some the same rubbish and some different rubbish from what Muhammad believed.

The non believer doesn't care about these differences. Why refute the Quran by quoting from the NT? Why refute one unevidenced dogma by citing another unevidenced dogma? Take your dogmas to some fundie bible thumper blog, where they will be more appreciated.
The sub title of this part of the forum is 'religion and philosophy'.

Therefore I am in the right place, and if you don't want to discuss religion maybe it is you that should take yourself elsewhere.
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Old 7th October 2017, 09:51 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The sub title of this part of the forum is 'religion and philosophy'.

Therefore I am in the right place, and if you don't want to discuss religion maybe it is you that should take yourself elsewhere.
Making unevidenced claims is not "discussing," it is making unevidenced claims, more commonly known as proselytizing. And, as noted above, using unevidenced claims to support/deny other unevidenced claims boils down to a waste of your time, our time, and bandwidth.
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Old 7th October 2017, 10:05 AM   #153
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Here are more blood thirsty and contradictory verses from sura 8.
Verse 8.65 says believers can defeat odds of ten to one. But in the next verse he thinks the better of it, and makes the odds two to one.

8.65 O Apostle! rouse the Believers to the fight. If there are twenty amongst you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred: if a hundred, they will vanquish a thousand of the Unbelievers: for these are a people without understanding.

8.66 For the present, God hath lightened your (task), for He knoweth that there is a weak spot in you: But (even so), if there are a hundred of you, patient and persevering, they will vanquish two hundred, and if a thousand, they will vanquish two thousand, with the leave of God: for God is with those who patiently persevere.

Then in the next verse Muhammad says he will not take prisoners until he has subdued the land. This presumably means captives will be killed.

8.67 It is not fitting for an apostle that he should have prisoners of war until he hath thoroughly subdued the land. Ye look for the temporal goods of this world; but God looketh to the Hereafter: And God is Exalted in might, Wise.
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Old 7th October 2017, 10:08 AM   #154
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I saw an article by a Professor Armstrong who is supposed to work for Nasa, stating that Iron could not have been formed on Earth as it requires to much energy to make Iron atoms. So when the quran says that Iron was sent down by Allah, at sura 57.25 this is evidence the quran is from God.
But every cosmologist knows that Iron atoms were formed in the first stars, and released into space when they went super nova. So all the heavy atoms like Iron were formed in stars and they gathered together in orbit around the sun and formed the earth. So when the quran says Iron was sent down by Allah, it is mistaken.

In fact it is common parlance in the quran to say that Allah sent stuff down from heaven and the phrase, Sent down, appears 42 times in the knoble quran.

At sura 39.6 the quran states that he sent down eight head of cattle in pairs.


There is also the matter of Allah sending down Manna and Quails, sura 2.57

More importantly the quran states Allah sent down a table of food.
Sura 5.112 to sura 5.115 tells of a story that God sent down a table of food for Jesus and the disciples. But this story appears nowhere in Christian doctrine, and it is assumed to be a miss interpretation by Muhammad, of the meaning of the last supper. As described in the bible at the Acts of the Apostles. Chapter 10.9 to 10.16
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Old 7th October 2017, 10:46 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I saw an article by a Professor Armstrong who is supposed to work for Nasa, stating that Iron could not have been formed on Earth as it requires to much energy to make Iron atoms. So when the quran says that Iron was sent down by Allah, at sura 57.25 this is evidence the quran is from God.
Lumps of iron do fall from the sky very frequently, in the form of iron meteorites. Of course these don't come from God; they have a natural origin.

In the same way as the Quran, the Bible contains accounts of miracles and things sent by God, and these are equally false. Miracles consist of events that are not understood by the people who observe them, like a lump of iron falling out of the sky. But we now do understand that phenomenon.

If the Quran is mistaken about manna falling from the sky, is not the Torah, from which Muhammad pilfered the story, equally mistaken? Or are you saying that a ridiculous story is false when it appears in one holy book, but true when it appears in another?
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Old 7th October 2017, 11:04 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Lumps of iron do fall from the sky very frequently, in the form of iron meteorites. Of course these don't come from God; they have a natural origin.
I assumed the bulk of the iron in the earth was part of the earths formation, and only a small amount comes from meteorites.


Originally Posted by Craig B View Post

If the Quran is mistaken about manna falling from the sky, is not the Torah, from which Muhammad pilfered the story, equally mistaken? Or are you saying that a ridiculous story is false when it appears in one holy book, but true when it appears in another?
No I am saying the bible is wrong, and so is the Quran.

My argument is largely that Muhammad plagiarised the bible and quotes it as factual when the bible stories are largely myths. I am thinking of the parting of the red sea, and Jonah and the whale, and Noah's ark, all of which are mentioned in the Quran as history. When in reality they are only myths.

I am saying the bible is largely bunk and the Quran is stolen bunk.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 7th October 2017, 11:06 AM   #157
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Do you think that 'spiritualists' and 'mediums' are a more reliable source than the Quran or Bible?

What about Hindu texts? where do they fit in?
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Old 7th October 2017, 11:14 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Do you think that 'spiritualists' and 'mediums' are a more reliable source than the Quran or Bible?

What about Hindu texts? where do they fit in?
Yes. I tend to think some spiritualist trance mediums are allowing spirits to speak through them, and the spirits of the departed are in a better position than us to know what is true.

I have some respect for the Upanishads as they are probably inspired, even though they pre date the bible.

Spiritualism confirms some of the teachings of the Hindus, such as reincarnation and karma, but it does not pay much regard to the many Gods.
Spiritualist teaching say that we do not reincarnate as animals, nor do animals become humans. Each species is evolving in its own right.
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You see many stars in the sky at night, but not when the sun rises. Can you therefore say there are no stars in the heavens during the day? O man because you cannot find God in the days of your ignorance, say not that there is no God.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
Leo Tolstoy
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Old 7th October 2017, 11:48 AM   #159
quadraginta
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Just resurrecting this thread to see if it has nay more life in it.

An apt description.

Shame it was by accident.
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Old 7th October 2017, 11:50 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I assumed the bulk of the iron in the earth was part of the earths formation, and only a small amount comes from meteorites.
You're right. However, the iron in the earth is combined with other elements, and is not visible as pure iron, but normally as unimpressive red powder.

When you see a lump of pure iron, unless man made, it has fallen from the sky. So "God sent it" to us. The first iron to be used as implements was probably meteoritic in origin. A knife blade of meteoritic iron has been found in an Egyptian tomb, made at a time before smelting of iron ore had been invented. Muhammad's account makes sense, not as a gift from God, but as observation of a natural phenomenon, not understood at the time.

Quote:
No I am saying the bible is wrong, and so is the Quran.

My argument is largely that Muhammad plagiarised the bible and quotes it as factual when the bible stories are largely myths. I am thinking of the parting of the red sea, and Jonah and the whale, and Noah's ark, all of which are mentioned in the Quran as history. When in reality they are only myths.

I am saying the bible is largely bunk and the Quran is stolen bunk.
Agreed.
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