Is the Orch-OR model right??

Lukas1986

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Discovery of Quantum Vibrations in 'Microtubules' Inside Brain Neurons Supports Controversial Theory of Consciousness

Jan. 16, 2014 — A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in "microtubules" inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose. They suggest that EEG rhythms (brain waves) also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations, and that from a practical standpoint, treating brain microtubule vibrations could benefit a host of mental, neurological, and cognitive conditions.

The theory, called "orchestrated objective reduction" ('Orch OR'), was first put forward in the mid-1990s by eminent mathematical physicist Sir Roger Penrose, FRS, Mathematical Institute and Wadham College, University of Oxford, and prominent anesthesiologist Stuart Hameroff, MD, Anesthesiology, Psychology and Center for Consciousness Studies, The University of Arizona, Tucson. They suggested that quantum vibrational computations in microtubules were "orchestrated" ("Orch") by synaptic inputs and memory stored in microtubules, and terminated by Penrose "objective reduction" ('OR'), hence "Orch OR." Microtubules are major components of the cell structural skeleton.

Orch OR was harshly criticized from its inception, as the brain was considered too "warm, wet, and noisy" for seemingly delicate quantum processes.. However, evidence has now shown warm quantum coherence in plant photosynthesis, bird brain navigation, our sense of smell, and brain microtubules. The recent discovery of warm temperature quantum vibrations in microtubules inside brain neurons by the research group led by Anirban Bandyopadhyay, PhD, at the National Institute of Material Sciences in Tsukuba, Japan (and now at MIT), corroborates the pair's theory and suggests that EEG rhythms also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations. In addition, work from the laboratory of Roderick G. Eckenhoff, MD, at the University of Pennsylvania, suggests that anesthesia, which selectively erases consciousness while sparing non-conscious brain activities, acts via microtubules in brain neurons.

"The origin of consciousness reflects our place in the universe, the nature of our existence. Did consciousness evolve from complex computations among brain neurons, as most scientists assert? Or has consciousness, in some sense, been here all along, as spiritual approaches maintain?" ask Hameroff and Penrose in the current review. "This opens a potential Pandora's Box, but our theory accommodates both these views, suggesting consciousness derives from quantum vibrations in microtubules, protein polymers inside brain neurons, which both govern neuronal and synaptic function, and connect brain processes to self-organizing processes in the fine scale, 'proto-conscious' quantum structure of reality."

After 20 years of skeptical criticism, "the evidence now clearly supports Orch OR," continue Hameroff and Penrose. "Our new paper updates the evidence, clarifies Orch OR quantum bits, or "qubits," as helical pathways in microtubule lattices, rebuts critics, and reviews 20 testable predictions of Orch OR published in 1998 -- of these, six are confirmed and none refuted."

An important new facet of the theory is introduced. Microtubule quantum vibrations (e.g. in megahertz) appear to interfere and produce much slower EEG "beat frequencies." Despite a century of clinical use, the underlying origins of EEG rhythms have remained a mystery. Clinical trials of brief brain stimulation aimed at microtubule resonances with megahertz mechanical vibrations using transcranial ultrasound have shown reported improvements in mood, and may prove useful against Alzheimer's disease and brain injury in the future.

Taken from: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

The only thing I found is that Bandyopadhyay worked with Hameroff and that Hameroff is a believer in Quantum Healing:

Stuart Hameroff, June 25 at 10:21 pm
Please see two papers (below) from Anirban Bandyopadhyay's group at NIMS in Tsukuba, Japan. They show quantum resonances in single microtubules at ambient temperature in frequency ranges from gigahertz to megahertz to 10 kilohertz, thus coherence times of 10^-4 secs at least. The frequency ranges appear to be fractal-like
Megahertz in mechanical vibration is ultrasound. Weve recently shown transcranial ultrasound improves mood. Now we are looking in the lab at ultrasound effects on development of single neurons. If ultrasound accelerates neuronal growth and development (as it should, by resonating microtubules) its a therapy for brain injury.
We hope to look at this in the next year.

The mechanism in microtubules looks like the quantum coherence in photosynthesis
proteins, which apparently needs coherent mechanical vibration for the quantum states.
So ultrasound mechanical vibrations can stimulate quantum coherence in microtubules.
That's quantum healing.

Taken from: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/scientists-and-scholars-i_b_3543037.html

So what do you think of this members??
 
Orch-OR is pseudoscience or the worst kind. It's not even wrong.

The wikipedia article gives a good summary. The mathematical basis of Orch-OR is unsound. The physics basis of Orch-OR is unsound. And the neurological basis of Orch-OR is non-existent.

Also, if you compare the wikipedia article with the Science Daily article, someone is flat-out lying:

ScienceDaily said:
After 20 years of skeptical criticism, "the evidence now clearly supports Orch OR," continue Hameroff and Penrose. "Our new paper updates the evidence, clarifies Orch OR quantum bits, or "qubits," as helical pathways in microtubule lattices, rebuts critics, and reviews 20 testable predictions of Orch OR published in 1998 -- of these, six are confirmed and none refuted."

Wikipedia said:
Further to this, in 1998, Hameroff made 20 testable predictions related to his proposal.[36] However, most of these proposals have been disproven. The proposed predominance of 'A' lattice microtubules, more suitable for information processing, has been falsified by Kikkawa et al.,[37][38] who showed that all in vivo microtubules have a 'B' lattice and a seam. The suggestion of coherent photons has been disproven, as has the existence of gap junctions between neurons and glial cells,[39] and the proposal that photons do not decohere in the retina.[40]
 
Also, this might get a better response in the Science forum. Orch-OR itself isn't science, but the responses to it are.
 
We will know for sure when an AI program passes a Turning test without needing such nonsense.

IXP
 
Forget the Orch-OR stuff. I wonder what the chances are that one or more quantum processes are involved in thinking and consciousness?* There is some evidence that such processes are involved in photosynthesis, although I think the jury is still out.

~~ Paul

* I am not suggesting that QM is a gateway to some parallel world.
 
I found this. Its more info kinda:

A review and update of a controversial 20-year-old theory of consciousness published in Physics of Life Reviews claims that consciousness derives from deeper level, finer scale activities inside brain neurons. The recent discovery of quantum vibrations in "microtubules" inside brain neurons corroborates this theory, according to review authors Stuart Hameroff and Sir Roger Penrose. They suggest that EEG rhythms (brain waves) also derive from deeper level microtubule vibrations, and that from a practical standpoint, treating brain microtubule vibrations could benefit a host of mental, neurological, and cognitive conditions.

Taken from: http://www.elsevier.com/about/press...roversial-20-year-old-theory-of-consciousness

I cannot to help myself think that this is another god in the gasp. Even when Quantum Mechanics is involved in this. How does these energies/particles/waves stay together to go into a afterlife. This is another problem I have with this. I therefore think its caca.

Thanks for all the replies folks.
 
Even David Chalmers recommends being wary about QM "hypotheses" for consciousness:

Nevertheless, quantum theories of consciousness suffer from the same difficulties as neural or computational theories. Quantum phenomena have some remarkable functional properties, such as non-determinism and non-locality. It is natural to speculate that these properties may play some role in the explanation of cognitive functions, such as random choice and the integration of information, and this hypothesis cannot be ruled out a priori. But when it comes to the explanation of experience, quantum processes are in the same boat as any other. The question of why these processes should give rise to experience is entirely unanswered.
---David Chalmers
 
Even David Chalmers recommends being wary about QM "hypotheses" for consciousness:

Nevertheless, quantum theories of consciousness suffer from the same difficulties as neural or computational theories. Quantum phenomena have some remarkable functional properties, such as non-determinism and non-locality. It is natural to speculate that these properties may play some role in the explanation of cognitive functions, such as random choice and the integration of information, and this hypothesis cannot be ruled out a priori. But when it comes to the explanation of experience, quantum processes are in the same boat as any other. The question of why these processes should give rise to experience is entirely unanswered.
---David Chalmers

Thanks for pointing this out. I also found the original link to the quote on the net. To me it seems that Quantum Consciousness is like the same god in the gasp which is repeated over and over again.

When scientists found out radio waves then consciousness was some wave and the brain was some kind of antenna or TV set. Now when we have Quantum Mechanics that now consciousness is some kind of Quantum Mind thing. This never gets old. I hope when we will find something new in the future like some new particle or "I do know what" then that will be consciousness. To put it in a nutshell consciousness is always something magical and with every discovery the people who believe in ghosts or souls put consciousness into this category. I can remember reading a book about Nazi pseudoscience when X-rays were found. People thought that these X-rays are responsible for telepathy and other magical things. I cannot help myself to think the same here.
 
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