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Old 30th January 2014, 09:51 PM   #1
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Cianobacteria, our little hero

The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.

Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised.

Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible.

Thats called a interdependent system. It cannot have evolved in small steps. All must exist at once.

The long argument :

Could the oxygen and nitrogen cicle be explained by naturalistic means ? The reason for the abundance of oxygen in the atmosphere is the presence of a very large number of organisms which produce oxygen as a byproduct of their metabolism. Cyanobacteria or blue-green algae became the first microbes to produce oxygen by photosynthesis. They are one of the oldest bacteria that live on earth, said to exist perhaps as long as 3.5 billion years. And their capabilities are nothing more than astounding. No cianobacteria, no oxygen, no higher life forms. These cianobacterias have incredibly sophisticated enzyme proteins and metabolic pathways, like the electron transport chains, ATP synthase motors, circadian clock, the photosynthetic light reactions, carbon concentration mechanism, and transcriptional regulation , they produce binded nitrogen through nitrogenase, a highly sophisticated mechanism to bind nitrogen, used as a nutrient for plant and animal growth. The Nitrogen cycle is a lot more complex than the carbon cycle. Nitrogen is a very important element. It makes up almost 80% of our atmosphere, and it is an important component of proteins and DNA, both of which are the building blocks of animals and plants. Therefore without nitrogen we would lose one of the most important elements on this planet, along with oxygen, hydrogen and carbon. There are a number of stages to the nitrogen cycle, which involve breaking down and building up nitrogen and it’s various compounds.There is no real starting point for the nitrogen cycle. It is an endless cycle. Potential gaps in the system cannot be reasonably bypassed by inorganic nature alone. It must have a degree of specificity that in all probability could not have been produced by chance. A given function or step in the system may be found in several different unrelated organisms. The removal of any one of the individual biological steps will resort in the loss of function of the system. The data suggest that the nitrogen cycle may be irreducibly interdependent based on the above criteria. No proposed neo-Darwinian mechanisms can explain the origin of such a system.The ultimate source of nitrogen for the biosynthesis of amino acids is atmospheric nitrogen (N2), a nearly inert gas. Its needed by all living things to build proteins and nucleic acids. This is one of the hardest chemical bonds of all to break. So, how can nitrogen be brought out of its tremendous reserves in the atmosphere and into a state where it can be used by living things? To be metabolically useful, atmospheric nitrogen must be reduced. It must be converted to a useful form. Without "fixed" nitrogen, plants, and therefore animals, could not exist as we know them. This process, known as nitrogen fixation, occurs through lightening, but most in certain types of bacteria, namely cianobacteria. Even though nitrogen is one of the most prominent chemical elements in living systems, N2 is almost unreactive (and very stable) because of its triple bond (N≡N). This bond is extremely difficult to break because the three chemical bonds need to be separated and bonded to different compounds. Nitrogenase is the only family of enzymes capable of breaking this bond (i.e., it carries out nitrogen fixation). Nitrogenase is a very complex enzyme system. Nitrogenase genes are distributed throughout the prokaryotic kingdom, including representatives of the Archaea as well as the Eubacteria and Cyanobacteria.With assistance from an energy source (ATP) and a powerful and specific complementary reducing agent (ferredoxin), nitrogen molecules are bound and cleaved with surgical precision. In this way, a ‘molecular sledgehammer’ is applied to the NN bond, and a single nitrogen molecule yields two molecules of ammonia. The ammonia then ascends the ‘food chain’, and is used as amino groups in protein synthesis for plants and animals. This is a very tiny mechanism, but multiplied on a large scale it is of critical importance in allowing plant growth and food production on our planet to continue. ‘Nature is really good at it (nitrogen-splitting), so good in fact that we've had difficulty in copying chemically the essence of what bacteria do so well.’ If one merely substitutes the name of God for the word 'nature', the real picture emerges.These proteins use a collection of metal ions as the electron carriers that are responsible for the reduction of N2 to NH3. All organisms can then use this reduced nitrogen (NH3) to make amino acids. In humans, reduced nitrogen enters the physiological system in dietary sources containing amino acids. One thing is certain—that matter obeying existing laws of chemistry could not have created, on its own, such a masterpiece of chemical engineering.Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised. Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible. So thats a interdependent system.


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Old 30th January 2014, 09:59 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.
Nope. In a reducing atmosphere (as the air would have been prior to the evolution of photosynthetic life), nitrogen is commonly found as ammonia. No cyanobacteria needed.

Try again.
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Old 30th January 2014, 10:07 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
Nope. In a reducing atmosphere (as the air would have been prior to the evolution of photosynthetic life), nitrogen is commonly found as ammonia. No cyanobacteria needed.

Try again.
http://creation.com/origin-of-oxygen...-than-imagined

there is now substantial evidence against these interdependent concepts. Dimroth and Kimberley10 unequivocally state:

‘in general, we find no evidence in the sedimentary distributions of carbon, sulfur, uranium or iron, that an oxygen-free atmosphere has existed at any time during the span of geological history recorded in well preserved sedimentary rocks’ (emphasis mine).

They went on to explain that:

‘the sedimentary distributions of carbon, sulfur, uranium, and ferric and ferrous iron depend greatly upon ambient oxygen pressure and should reflect any major change in proportion of oxygen in the atmosphere or hydrosphere. The similar distributions of these elements in sedimentary rocks of all ages are here interpreted to indicate the existence of a Precambrian atmosphere containing much oxygen.’

Elsewhere11 they concluded:

‘we know of no evidence which proves orders-of-magnitude differences between Middle Archaean and subsequent atmospheric compositions, hydrospheric compositions, or total biomasses.’
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Old 30th January 2014, 10:17 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Cyanobacteria or blue-green algae became the first microbes to produce oxygen by photosynthesis. They are one of the oldest bacteria that live on earth, said to exist perhaps as long as 3.5 billion years.
No. Cyanobacteria aren't that old. The older photsynthetic bacteria would have been closer to gloebacter. Also, there were anaerobic bacteria before there were oxygen producing bacteria. And, the house of cards collapses...
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Old 30th January 2014, 10:20 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by barehl View Post
No. Cyanobacteria aren't that old. The older photsynthetic bacteria would have been closer to gloebacter. Also, there were anaerobic bacteria before there were oxygen producing bacteria. And, the house of cards collapses...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoba...#Earth_history

Stromatolites of fossilized oxygen-producing cyanobacteria have been found from 2.8 billion years ago,[17] possibly from 3.5 billion years ago.

even if there were anaerobic bacteria, you still need nitrogenase and photosynthesis to make oxygen and bind nitrogen, essential for all evolved life forms. and anaerobic bacteria don't do the job..

why does it collapse ?

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Old 30th January 2014, 10:25 PM   #6
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Well as far as I know, there is strong evidence of when the oxygen was released, because it reacted with iron and the oxidized iron "rust" settled out and made a sedimentary layer. Until after about 200 thousand years of that the oceans became saturated and then started producing O2 in the atmosphere. Called the Great Oxygenation Event. I know that layer is used extensively to mine iron. So that would be evidence surely?
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Old 30th January 2014, 10:34 PM   #7
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Considered asking a practicing geologist about the oxygen catastrophe gibhor? Of course not.
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Old 30th January 2014, 10:41 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.
Wrong, as already pointed out

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised.
But since the first statement is wrong, so is this. In fact, the nitrogen is often found as cyanide or azide which in a reducing atmosphere readily form DNA like molecules

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible.
Amino acids can form perfectly well without DNA, and peptides at least are possible in a reducing atmosphere.

Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Thats called a interdependent system. It cannot have evolved in small steps. All must exist at once.
Except all the premises are wrong, so therefore the conclusion is also untenable.

Added, the cyanobacterial (the y in the name is the correct spelling by the way) photosystem is clearly evolved from a duplication of the much older purple bacterial photosystem which also gives energy to a cell without producing oxygen.

None of these statements even need acceptance of abiogenesis or evolution to be known to be wrong by the way. It's simple and well known chemistry which has been shown so often that it's become high school textbook stuff.
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Old 30th January 2014, 10:48 PM   #9
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You misspelled a crucial part of your own thread title. That lack of attention to detail gives me little hope to find utility in your obviously ^c ^v OP.

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Old 30th January 2014, 10:58 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The similar distributions of these elements in sedimentary rocks of all ages are here interpreted to indicate the existence of a Precambrian atmosphere containing much oxygen.
Really? Now, this is funny because the article references Kasting. But, here's a quote from Kasting:

Quote:
Before that happened, the amount of oxygen in Earth's atmosphere was about one ten-quadrillionth of the amount present today
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Old 30th January 2014, 11:05 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
oygen-producing cyanobacteria have been found from 2.8 billion years ago,[17] possibly from 3.5 billion years ago.
That is incorrect. The 3.5 billion timeline are stromatolites. These were produced by oxygen producing bacteria that were ancestral to cyanobacteria, not cyanobacteria.

Quote:
even if there were anaerobic bacteria, you still need nitrogenase and photosynthesis to make oxygen and bind nitrogen, essential for all evolved life forms. and anaerobic bacteria don't do the job..
Your hypothesis is ridiculous. You don't need cyanobacteria to have nitrogen compounds.
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Old 30th January 2014, 11:13 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://creation.com/origin-of-oxygen...-than-imagined

there is now substantial evidence against these interdependent concepts. Dimroth and Kimberley10 unequivocally state:

‘in general, we find no evidence in the sedimentary distributions of carbon, sulfur, uranium or iron, that an oxygen-free atmosphere has existed at any time during the span of geological history recorded in well preserved sedimentary rocks’ (emphasis mine).

They went on to explain that:

‘the sedimentary distributions of carbon, sulfur, uranium, and ferric and ferrous iron depend greatly upon ambient oxygen pressure and should reflect any major change in proportion of oxygen in the atmosphere or hydrosphere. The similar distributions of these elements in sedimentary rocks of all ages are here interpreted to indicate the existence of a Precambrian atmosphere containing much oxygen.’

Elsewhere11 they concluded:

‘we know of no evidence which proves orders-of-magnitude differences between Middle Archaean and subsequent atmospheric compositions, hydrospheric compositions, or total biomasses.’
You do know, I hope, that the ?citations? Kimberly10 and Elsewhere11 are meaningless without an actual cite of where you found them. They read like real science, but if we can't check the circumstances/research the statements derive from they are completely untrustworthy.
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Old 30th January 2014, 11:16 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoba...#Earth_history

Stromatolites of fossilized oxygen-producing cyanobacteria have been found from 2.8 billion years ago,[17] possibly from 3.5 billion years ago.

even if there were anaerobic bacteria, you still need nitrogenase and photosynthesis to make oxygen and bind nitrogen, essential for all evolved life forms. and anaerobic bacteria don't do the job..

why does it collapse ?
I trust you have noted things are not going well for your theory (ies) here. Would you mind presenting your background in this area for evaluation?
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Old 31st January 2014, 01:04 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.

Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised.

Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible.

Thats called a interdependent system. It cannot have evolved in small steps. All must exist at once.

The long argument :

Could the oxygen and nitrogen cicle be explained by naturalistic means ? The reason for the abundance of oxygen in the atmosphere is the presence of a very large number of organisms which produce oxygen as a byproduct of their metabolism. Cyanobacteria or blue-green algae became the first microbes to produce oxygen by photosynthesis. They are one of the oldest bacteria that live on earth, said to exist perhaps as long as 3.5 billion years. And their capabilities are nothing more than astounding. No cianobacteria, no oxygen, no higher life forms. These cianobacterias have incredibly sophisticated enzyme proteins and metabolic pathways, like the electron transport chains, ATP synthase motors, circadian clock, the photosynthetic light reactions, carbon concentration mechanism, and transcriptional regulation , they produce binded nitrogen through nitrogenase, a highly sophisticated mechanism to bind nitrogen, used as a nutrient for plant and animal growth. The Nitrogen cycle is a lot more complex than the carbon cycle. Nitrogen is a very important element. It makes up almost 80% of our atmosphere, and it is an important component of proteins and DNA, both of which are the building blocks of animals and plants. Therefore without nitrogen we would lose one of the most important elements on this planet, along with oxygen, hydrogen and carbon. There are a number of stages to the nitrogen cycle, which involve breaking down and building up nitrogen and it’s various compounds.There is no real starting point for the nitrogen cycle. It is an endless cycle. Potential gaps in the system cannot be reasonably bypassed by inorganic nature alone. It must have a degree of specificity that in all probability could not have been produced by chance. A given function or step in the system may be found in several different unrelated organisms. The removal of any one of the individual biological steps will resort in the loss of function of the system. The data suggest that the nitrogen cycle may be irreducibly interdependent based on the above criteria. No proposed neo-Darwinian mechanisms can explain the origin of such a system.The ultimate source of nitrogen for the biosynthesis of amino acids is atmospheric nitrogen (N2), a nearly inert gas. Its needed by all living things to build proteins and nucleic acids. This is one of the hardest chemical bonds of all to break. So, how can nitrogen be brought out of its tremendous reserves in the atmosphere and into a state where it can be used by living things? To be metabolically useful, atmospheric nitrogen must be reduced. It must be converted to a useful form. Without "fixed" nitrogen, plants, and therefore animals, could not exist as we know them. This process, known as nitrogen fixation, occurs through lightening, but most in certain types of bacteria, namely cianobacteria. Even though nitrogen is one of the most prominent chemical elements in living systems, N2 is almost unreactive (and very stable) because of its triple bond (N≡N). This bond is extremely difficult to break because the three chemical bonds need to be separated and bonded to different compounds. Nitrogenase is the only family of enzymes capable of breaking this bond (i.e., it carries out nitrogen fixation). Nitrogenase is a very complex enzyme system. Nitrogenase genes are distributed throughout the prokaryotic kingdom, including representatives of the Archaea as well as the Eubacteria and Cyanobacteria.With assistance from an energy source (ATP) and a powerful and specific complementary reducing agent (ferredoxin), nitrogen molecules are bound and cleaved with surgical precision. In this way, a ‘molecular sledgehammer’ is applied to the NN bond, and a single nitrogen molecule yields two molecules of ammonia. The ammonia then ascends the ‘food chain’, and is used as amino groups in protein synthesis for plants and animals. This is a very tiny mechanism, but multiplied on a large scale it is of critical importance in allowing plant growth and food production on our planet to continue. ‘Nature is really good at it (nitrogen-splitting), so good in fact that we've had difficulty in copying chemically the essence of what bacteria do so well.’ If one merely substitutes the name of God for the word 'nature', the real picture emerges.These proteins use a collection of metal ions as the electron carriers that are responsible for the reduction of N2 to NH3. All organisms can then use this reduced nitrogen (NH3) to make amino acids. In humans, reduced nitrogen enters the physiological system in dietary sources containing amino acids. One thing is certain—that matter obeying existing laws of chemistry could not have created, on its own, such a masterpiece of chemical engineering.Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised. Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible. So thats a interdependent system.
Is this your own work or that of another person?



Originally Posted by Red Baron Farms View Post
Well as far as I know, there is strong evidence of when the oxygen was released, because it reacted with iron and the oxidized iron "rust" settled out and made a sedimentary layer. Until after about 200 thousand years of that the oceans became saturated and then started producing O2 in the atmosphere. Called the Great Oxygenation Event. I know that layer is used extensively to mine iron. So that would be evidence surely?
Indeed. TaconiteWP mining is sadly famous in some parts of the States.
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Old 31st January 2014, 01:47 AM   #15
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Aaaand we're off! The GIBHOR gallop takes the lead on the outside. Can the skeptics keep up? It looks like it! But, the crowd wails, the codswallop flows faster as facts are ignored and lessons are not learned. It could take GIBHOR all the way to the finish on a tide of stubborn mendacity!

Plllllace your bets!
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Old 31st January 2014, 02:58 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by pakeha View Post
Is this your own work or that of another person?
I think you can view the creative process here:

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t139...-synthesis-etc
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Old 31st January 2014, 03:00 AM   #17
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Strange how some threads go to Hell before the OP.
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Old 31st January 2014, 06:19 AM   #18
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The whole "argument" boils down to a form of "Well, nobody makes flint tools anymore, so obviously flint tools were never made. So God created foundries for us to use and then rested on a shiny new garden chair."
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Old 31st January 2014, 06:38 AM   #19
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Why is this thread not in the Religion forum?
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Old 31st January 2014, 08:05 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by nvidiot View Post
Considered asking a practicing geologist about the oxygen catastrophe gibhor? Of course not.
You probably have. Go ahead......
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Old 31st January 2014, 08:28 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Madalch View Post
Nope. In a reducing atmosphere (as the air would have been prior to the evolution of photosynthetic life), nitrogen is commonly found as ammonia. No cyanobacteria needed.

Try again.
Even in our oxygenated atmosphere lightning can fix nitrogen.

And we can't say anything about the nitrogen fixing abilities of microbes we know only from isotopic signatures. This whole argument is akin to saying "CO2 emissions increased, therefore humans have eight arms."
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Old 31st January 2014, 08:48 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by barehl View Post
That is incorrect. The 3.5 billion timeline are stromatolites. These were produced by oxygen producing bacteria that were ancestral to cyanobacteria, not cyanobacteria.
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanofr.html

At right is a layered stromatolite, produced by the activity of ancient cyanobacteria


Quote:
Your hypothesis is ridiculous. You don't need cyanobacteria to have nitrogen compounds.
http://archive.bio.ed.ac.uk/jdeacon/...s/nitrogen.htm

Microorganisms have a central role in almost all aspects of nitrogen availability and thus for life support on earth:

some bacteria can convert N2 into ammonia by the process termed nitrogen fixation; these bacteria are either free-living or form symbiotic associations with plants or other organisms (e.g. termites, protozoa)
other bacteria bring about transformations of ammonia to nitrate, and of nitrate to N2 or other nitrogen gases
many bacteria and fungi degrade organic matter, releasing fixed nitrogen for reuse by other organisms.
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Old 31st January 2014, 08:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
I think you can view the creative process here:

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t139...-synthesis-etc
that is my personal virtual library.
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Old 31st January 2014, 08:51 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Why is this thread not in the Religion forum?
Good question.
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Old 31st January 2014, 08:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
You probably have. Go ahead......
I grew up in the Pilbara region of Western Australia. I've actually touched the iron band formations there. I've walked through the gorges that they lie exposed within. I've seen the tree species that need that have evolved to utilise the high iron concentration and grow basically lithophytically on the sides of these gashes in the landscape.

Dinwar may be more appropriate to question, but you don't seem interested in learning anything, merely repeating rote sections of creationist foolery.
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Old 31st January 2014, 09:02 AM   #26
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Wait -- is this really "cyanobacteria, therefore God"?
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Old 31st January 2014, 09:13 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Megalodon View Post
The whole "argument" boils down to a form of "Well, nobody makes flint tools anymore, so obviously flint tools were never made. So God created foundries for us to use and then rested on a shiny new garden chair."
A closer analogy would be "Humans build cars in factories. But humans rely on cars to get to their factories. Therefore, there's no way that a human could have made the first car, so . . . Loki!"
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Old 31st January 2014, 09:57 AM   #28
Giordano
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanofr.html

At right is a layered stromatolite, produced by the activity of ancient cyanobacteria



http://archive.bio.ed.ac.uk/jdeacon/...s/nitrogen.htm

Microorganisms have a central role in almost all aspects of nitrogen availability and thus for life support on earth:

some bacteria can convert N2 into ammonia by the process termed nitrogen fixation; these bacteria are either free-living or form symbiotic associations with plants or other organisms (e.g. termites, protozoa)
other bacteria bring about transformations of ammonia to nitrate, and of nitrate to N2 or other nitrogen gases
many bacteria and fungi degrade organic matter, releasing fixed nitrogen for reuse by other organisms.
GIBHOR,

You do not understand microbiology, paleobiology, or geology.
Learn at least one of those fields before posting nonsense like you have.

Also you should see how Creationist exploit your lack of knowledge about these fields to falsely persuade you. You are being lied to by them!
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Old 31st January 2014, 10:02 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
Microorganisms have a central role in almost all aspects of nitrogen availability and thus for life support on earth:

some bacteria can convert N2 into ammonia by the process termed nitrogen fixation; these bacteria are either free-living or form symbiotic associations with plants or other organisms (e.g. termites, protozoa)
other bacteria bring about transformations of ammonia to nitrate, and of nitrate to N2 or other nitrogen gases
many bacteria and fungi degrade organic matter, releasing fixed nitrogen for reuse by other organisms.

Has it occurred to you that the ecology of the Earth of over 3.5 billion years ago was different from current ecology?
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Old 31st January 2014, 10:02 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by nvidiot View Post
I grew up in the Pilbara region of Western Australia. I've actually touched the iron band formations there. I've walked through the gorges that they lie exposed within. I've seen the tree species that need that have evolved to utilise the high iron concentration and grow basically lithophytically on the sides of these gashes in the landscape.

Dinwar may be more appropriate to question, but you don't seem interested in learning anything, merely repeating rote sections of creationist foolery.
my source is secular , and scientific.
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Old 31st January 2014, 10:03 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
GIBHOR,

You do not understand microbiology, paleobiology, or geology.
Learn at least one of those fields before posting nonsense like you have.

Also you should see how Creationist exploit your lack of knowledge about these fields to falsely persuade you. You are being lied to by them!
show me how, and address the argument .
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Old 31st January 2014, 11:34 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
show me how, and address the argument .
You have been shown how.
Repeatedly.
Basic chemistry shows that your original premise is wrong. Therefore your argument is non valid.

In fact, the very fact that all nitrogen fixation takes place in a strictly anaerobic environment gives very high validity to the suggestion the ability to fix nitrogen evolved before oxygen existed.
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Old 31st January 2014, 01:42 PM   #33
Giordano
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
show me how, and address the argument .
It has already been done by others in this very thread. Haven't you been paying attention? Do you not understand their arguments?
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Old 31st January 2014, 01:51 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
http://www.ucmp.berkeley.edu/bacteria/cyanofr.html

At right is a layered stromatolite, produced by the activity of ancient cyanobacteria
Absolutely, if that stromatolite is 2.3 billion years old. If it is older then, no.

Quote:
Microorganisms today have a central role in almost all aspects of nitrogen availability and thus for life support on earth now
FTFY
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Old 31st January 2014, 02:04 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.

Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised.

Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible.

Thats called a interdependent system. It cannot have evolved in small steps. All must exist at once.<gibbership>
Utter rubbish. You can't even spell 'cyanobacteria' properly? Where did you find this crap to parrot.
I take it you're unaware of (or in denial of) the Miller-Urey experiment? It's only been sixty years since they demonstrated that amino acids, sugars and other complex molecules, could be produced by the action of energy on basic molecules.
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Old 31st January 2014, 02:34 PM   #36
Giordano
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
The short argument :

Without cyanobacteria - no fixed nitrogen is available.

Without fixed nitrogen, no DNA, no amino-acids, no protein can be synthesised.

Without DNA, no amino-acids,protein, or cyanobacteria are possible.

Thats called a interdependent system. It cannot have evolved in small steps. All must exist at once.
Wrong at the start; there are many ways to fix nitrogen that do not involve cyanobacteria. Look it up. Or look in this thread.

It is clearly not an interdependent system. It clearly evolved in small steps.

The person telling you otherwise is lying to you.
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Old 31st January 2014, 05:44 PM   #37
GIBHOR
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Utter rubbish. You can't even spell 'cyanobacteria' properly? Where did you find this crap to parrot.
I take it you're unaware of (or in denial of) the Miller-Urey experiment? It's only been sixty years since they demonstrated that amino acids, sugars and other complex molecules, could be produced by the action of energy on basic molecules.
if it would be that easy... its not. Its VERY complex. I am making a study on this matter :

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t139...-synthesis-etc
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Old 31st January 2014, 07:07 PM   #38
Giordano
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
if it would be that easy... its not. Its VERY complex. I am making a study on this matter :

http://elshamah.heavenforum.org/t139...-synthesis-etc
Nice unbiased source (sarcasm). There is certainly more information there but you have to know when they are lying to you. For that you need an unbiased source. Try one instead. Also, was I correct that you can fix nitrogen without Cyanobacteria? Yes or no, please.
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Old 31st January 2014, 07:21 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by GIBHOR View Post
my source is secular , and scientific.
Wow! Which source and since when?
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Old 31st January 2014, 07:55 PM   #40
GIBHOR
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Nice unbiased source (sarcasm). There is certainly more information there but you have to know when they are lying to you. For that you need an unbiased source. Try one instead. Also, was I correct that you can fix nitrogen without Cyanobacteria? Yes or no, please.
the source is my own personal virtual library

and, yes, there are other ways ,but none do produce enough fixed nitrogen to sustain life:

Nitrogen becomes available in following ways:

http://belligerentdesign-asyncritus....s-ignored.html

1 Lightning discharges, at 30,000 deg C, force the combination of nitrogen and oxygen, to produce nitrogen dioxide, which dissolves in rain water to form nitric and nitrous acids, which then combine with compounds in the soil to produce nitrates and nitrites - which are utilisable by plants. So that's number one. Lightening can break the bond but they do not produce sufficient quantities of the biologically reactive nitrogen to be of any substantial use.

2 In the root nodules of leguminous plants, the bacterium Rhizobium leguminosarum has a symbiotic relationship with the plant. It 'fixes' atmospheric nitrogen, making it available to the plant, and in return, the plant provides the bacterium with salts etc for its survival. Curiously, haemoglobin is formed in the nodules too. It's role is not yet known with certainty, but researchers agree that it must have a function there.

Which, of course, drips another drop of poison into the evolutionist's already bitter cup: what on earth is haemoglobin doing in such a place? How does evolutionary biochemistry account for its existence? Well, easy. It can't. So nuts to evolutionary biochemistry.

3 By far, the greatest contribution to nitrogen fixation comes from the cyanobacteria. These bacteria have 'evolved (ho ho!)' the ability to take nitrogen from the air, [I wonder how they figured that little trick out???] convert it into their cellular material, and on dying, decompose and make nitrogen available to the soil. Without them, life would surely perish.

So in the beginning, not only was lack of oxygen a gigantic problem, but the lack of nitrogen was no less so. In order for the anaerobic organisms, whatever they might have been, to generate oxygen in quantity, they simply HAD to have nitrogen in their tissues (as enzymes etc). With nitrogen as unreactive as it is, then how did they fix it? The advanced nitrogen fixers hadn't 'evolved' yet.

Through five stages, atmospheric nitrogen is converted into nitrogen compounds that plants require and can assimilate, and it is then recycled back into the atmosphere again.

The nitrogenase enzyme breaks up a diatomic nitrogen gas molecule using a large number of ATP and 8 electrons to create two ammonia molecules and hydrogen gas for each molecule of nitrogen gas . As a result, the bacteria that utilize this enzyme must expend much of their energy, in the form of ATP, so that they will constantly obtain a steady source of nitrogen. Without nitrogenase’s function of fixing nitrogen gas into ammonia, then organisms would not be able to thrive since they would not receive a source of nitrogen for other important reactions.

How could those regulatory machines evolve at precisely the right rate so as to drop into the right place at precisely the right time to effect proper assembly of the nitrogenase machinery?

http://www.uncommondescent.com/intel...billion-years/

The work of Dr. Sean Crowe and his team strongly suggests that this complex form of photosynthesis may have appeared very early in the history of life on Earth. And as we’ve seen, even the simpler versions of photosynthesis require complexes of several kinds of proteins to work properly – proteins whose evolution cannot be accounted for by natural selection, as the pioneering work of Dr. Douglas Axe has shown. I’ll just quote one paragraph from his paper, The Case Against a Darwinian Origin of Protein Folds, in BioComplexity 2010(1):1-12. doi:10.5048/BIO-C.2010.1:

Based on analysis of the genomes of 447 bacterial species, the projected number of different domain structures per species averages 991. Comparing this to the number of pathways by which metabolic processes are carried out, which is around 263 for E. coli, provides a rough figure of three or four new domain folds being needed, on average, for every new metabolic pathway. In order to accomplish this successfully, an evolutionary search would need to be capable of locating sequences that amount to anything from one in 10^159 to one in 10^308 possibilities, something the neo-Darwinian model falls short of by a very wide margin. (p. 11)

Last edited by GIBHOR; 31st January 2014 at 08:00 PM.
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