NYCCAN - New NY Ballot Initiative 2014

Orphia Nay · 1st February 2014, 04:02 PM

NYCCAN lives to fail another day!

Just got an email from their dusty old email account.

"The New York City Coalition for Accountability Now (NYC CAN) is excited to announce the launch of the “High-rise Safety Initiative,” a new ballot initiative that will amend the New York City Charter to require the NYC Department of Buildings to investigate all high-rise building collapses occurring in New York City on or after September 11, 2001, except the collapse of WTC 1 and 2. The Initiative will apply to the collapse of WTC 7 on September 11, 2001, as well as any high-rise collapse that occurs in the future.

"As many of you know, the City of New York blocked NYC CAN’s 2009 ballot initiative from going before the voters and becoming law. Five years later, we are sponsoring a new ballot initiative that has been carefully crafted to withstand any legal challenge the City might bring."

High Rise Safety Ballot Initiative

"For the proposed charter amendment to appear on the November 4, 2014 ballot, we need to submit 30,000 signatures from registered New York City voters by July 3, 2014, and a second submission of 15,000 signatures by September 5, 2014. To be sure we have enough valid signatures, the High-rise Safety Initiative is aiming to gather 75,000 signatures for the first submission, and 35,000 signatures for the second submission."

They're expecting they might have a legal battle. Get this:

"The petition drive, which will run from May to July 2014, will cost $250,000. The High-rise Safety Initiative is working with a political consulting firm that specializes in field operations to manage the petition drive – which all but ensures that we will successfully gather enough signatures if we meet our fundraising goal. After that, up to $50,000 may be needed for litigation."

Ted Walter appears to be managing the initiative.

No mention of thermite or controlled demolition in the About page, but stolen steel and "no highrise had ever collapsed from fire" makes it pretty obvious they're not interested in an investigation which confirms what we already know.

DGM · 1st February 2014, 04:24 PM

This should be easy.

Quote:

Earlier this month, a petition was created on the White House's "We the People" site calling for the government to deport Justin Bieber and revoke his green card. As of this afternoon, there are 223,269 signatures on this position.

30,000? no problem

MileHighMadness · 1st February 2014, 04:41 PM

Hey...sent us money...and more money...we are the good guys! [dws]

thedopefishlives · 1st February 2014, 04:52 PM

So they want an investigation of WTC7, basically. Even NYCCAN'T has given up on nanothermite and controlled demolition.

DGM · 1st February 2014, 05:08 PM

Quote:

"As many of you know, the City of New York blocked NYC CAN’s 2009 ballot initiative from going before the voters and becoming law".

If these people were really into the truth this statement would read:

"As you know we screwed up and forgot to read up on state laws. We proposed a law that would have violated the law by side stepping the courts and putting the law in our hands. We know this sounds good but, it's illegal. We appreciate all the money you gave us but, we need more. We will achieve nothing but you will feel good about knowing we can eat tonight. In "truth we trust:. "

Orphia Nay · 1st February 2014, 05:26 PM

NYCCAN Fail 2009:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=149614

SpitfireIX · 1st February 2014, 08:15 PM

IANAL, but I'm betting a court would throw out the retroactive investigation provision. Also, I'll bet they'll get some push-back on the building permit surcharge. Of course, that may be what they want; to a lot of Truthers, there really is no such thing as bad publicity.

cjnewson88 · 2nd February 2014, 01:39 AM

I predict Failure.

ozeco41 · 2nd February 2014, 03:00 AM

Originally Posted by cjnewson88

I predict Failure.

...and claiming success.

tsig · 2nd February 2014, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by ozeco41

...and claiming success.

They know there’s no success like failure
And that failure’s no success at all

http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/lov...-zero-no-limit

JSanderO · 2nd February 2014, 04:50 AM

This group appeals to the naivete of people with no technical understanding whatsoever and a belief that government will always lie whenever they issue official statements about anything. That combination of naive and let's call it distrustful is large enough to raise money to run their organization and to essentially force an official response which will reject the claims and then becomes proof... the self fulfilling prophesy to this group that they were lied to. They can't lose and they return again with the same old same old and more "proof" of conspiracy.

It's pathetic in the face of all the excellent technical analysis which has been done over the years... and which they simply close their minds to.

Muc · 2nd February 2014, 07:30 AM

Same Project Coordinator as ReThink911, same web developer. Probably other overlaps, too.

This here is an activity that leans heavily towards the lobbying side, though, so they probably couldn't do it under the tax-exempt umbrella of AE911Truth.

Foolmewunz · 3rd February 2014, 01:51 AM

So, how many high rise building collapses have there been since WTC 7? Zero?

Orphia Nay · 3rd February 2014, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

So, how many high rise building collapses have there been since WTC 7? Zero?

Exactly.

And note, they didn't mention any of the smaller WTC buildings that collapsed on 9/11.

Total ignorance.

They couldn't get 30,000 signatures five years ago. It would be a miracle if they get that many by July.

Foolmewunz · 3rd February 2014, 03:32 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Exactly.

And note, they didn't mention any of the smaller WTC buildings that collapsed on 9/11.

Total ignorance.

They couldn't get 30,000 signatures five years ago. It would be a miracle if they get that many by July.

Didn't they have a running on-line count going last time? I checked the site and there was nothing. They usually show the first few hundred signatures and fake couple of thousand in donations when they start these things up, don't they?

Foolmewunz · 3rd February 2014, 05:47 AM

Originally Posted by Miragememories

"Mistakes in the details" IS THE STORY.

MM

That would be the story in some other thread. The story in this thread is about the liars at NYCCAN playing a little fancy free with the law and using sophistry to try to get their pet project on the ballot again. Did you have something to say on this important ballot initiative, or just like NYCCAN are you trawling the old fishing lanes hoping for a nibble?

If they spent several years studying the law, I don't think they did a very good job of it. Any New York lawyers in the house? Does a ballot initiative that has taxation as part of it have any standing under law? In short, are they just hoping for a Pyrrhic victory in getting it on the ballot so they can claim they've done something?

SpitfireIX · 3rd February 2014, 06:14 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

If they spent several years studying the law, I don't think they did a very good job of it. Any New York lawyers in the house? Does a ballot initiative that has taxation as part of it have any standing under law? In short, are they just hoping for a Pyrrhic victory in getting it on the ballot so they can claim they've done something?

IANAL, but, as was discussed in regard to NYCCAN's previous failed initiative, basically, any proposal that costs money is required to include a funding mechanism. This is black-letter law, and is one of several major reasons that said previous initiative was unable to pass judicial muster; the court did not accept that donations would provide a legitimate basis for supplying revenue.

ETA: As I mentioned up-thread, I expect there will be some push-back from building contractors who don't want to pay more for building permits, but that's probably just fine with NYCCAN.

Orphia Nay · 3rd February 2014, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Didn't they have a running on-line count going last time? I checked the site and there was nothing. They usually show the first few hundred signatures and fake couple of thousand in donations when they start these things up, don't they?

You can see their fundraising tally at the Donate page:

http://highrisesafetynyc.org/donate/

$2,075 so far.

Haven't seen a signature tally, but I believe they're being collected on paper.

LashL · 3rd February 2014, 06:30 PM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

NYCCAN Fail 2009:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=149614

Ah, memories. Good times, good times.

Orphia Nay · 4th February 2014, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by LashL

Ah, memories. Good times, good times.

Lots of lovely Legaltainment^TM!

Brainster · 4th February 2014, 12:56 AM

Hmmm, no mention yet of this on Flogger or 9-11Truth dot org. Could it be that they're learning from the past debacles?

jhunter1163 · 4th February 2014, 04:11 AM

Originally Posted by LashL

Ah, memories. Good times, good times.

They were, indeed.

This petition does appear to be better-written than the other one was. However, it's still obviously agenda-driven, and the ballot process in NYC is designed to make things very difficult indeed for agenda-driven people. We'll see what develops.

jhunter1163 · 4th February 2014, 04:21 AM

Here's the heart of the petition:

Quote:

5. Investigatory Authority. Provided that the Department’s powers under this Act shall be limited solely to the City, and that
the Department shall not be authorized, under this Act, to exercise subpoena power over any non-City public official or to enter or
inspect any building, structure, enclosure, or premises located outside the City, in the Commissioner’s discretion, the Department
and its Employees and Agents, to the extent permitted by and in compliance with the Law, shall have the following authority:

a) To compel, through subpoena, the attendance of witnesses, the taking of oaths, the examination of witnesses, and the
production of books, papers, and other documents;
b) To enter and inspect any building, structure, enclosure, premises or any part thereof, anything therein, or anything
attached thereto;
c) To consult and coordinate with other City departments and agencies; and
d) To exercise all other investigatory powers authorized by Law.

A) So they don't have subpoena power under 5, but they have subpoena power under 5a.
B) Any building? You mean they could come in my house? Got a Fourth Amendment problem here, guys.
C) But WTC7 has already been investigated. They just didn't like the results.

carlitos · 4th February 2014, 08:52 AM

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

B) Any building? You mean they could come in my house? Got a Fourth Amendment problem here, guys.

Why do you hate freedom?

DGM · 4th February 2014, 01:09 PM

Wouldn't be the ultimate slap if this gets passed and the department votes unanimously to adopt the NIST findings.

Orphia Nay · 4th February 2014, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

A) So they don't have subpoena power under 5, but they have subpoena power under 5a.

I think 5 is outside the city, and A is meant to be inside the city, but it isn't written properly.

SpitfireIX · 4th February 2014, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

I think 5 is outside the city, and A is meant to be inside the city, but it isn't written properly.

It seems clear to me, but maybe I'm mentally filling in what should be written.

DGM · 4th February 2014, 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by SpitfireIX

It seems clear to me, but maybe I'm mentally filling in what should be written.

I'd love to know what that would be. Can a non-judicial body inside a city government be granted judicial powers by ballot vote?

ETA: I could be wrong but, doesn't it require a judge to issue a subpoena?

SpitfireIX · 4th February 2014, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by DGM

I'd love to know what that would be. Can a non-judicial body inside a city government be granted judicial powers by ballot vote?

If the ballot initiative passes, and is found not to violate any provisions of the initiative law, or of the NY State Constitution, it will become law just as if the NYC Council had passed it.

Many non-judicial investigative bodies have subpoena power, e. g., the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).

dudalb · 4th February 2014, 05:35 PM

How much of a boost did they get from the Truther who crashed the post Superbowl News Conference shouting Truther Slogans?

Foolmewunz · 4th February 2014, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by DGM

Wouldn't be the ultimate slap if this gets passed and the department votes unanimously to adopt the NIST findings.

But not before they exercise their rights and inspect the NYCCAN building to make sure it's not in danger of imminent collapse. It could take weeks. And they better take out some walls and ceilings to inspect the beams and joists.

Orphia Nay · 4th February 2014, 11:21 PM

Originally Posted by dudalb

How much of a boost did they get from the Truther who crashed the post Superbowl News Conference shouting Truther Slogans?

Well, they've only raised $3,103 so far ($1,027 in the past 33 hours) so not much.

They're averaging around $1,034 a day. Let's see if they can keep this up.

Donation tally here:
http://highrisesafetynyc.org/donate/

They say they need $250,000 to $300,000.

There are 152 days between Feb 2 when they began, and when the fundraising drive is due to end (July 3).

Even if they keep this up, they'll only raise $157,168 and they won't make it.

Orphia Nay · 4th February 2014, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Brainster

Hmmm, no mention yet of this on Flogger or 9-11Truth dot org. Could it be that they're learning from the past debacles?

Still nothing on http://www.911truth.org/

But there seems to have been an article a day or two ago on Flogger by someone called "Joe".

http://911blogger.com/news/2014-02-0...ety-initiative

One pathetic comment (unrelated to the initiative) so far, by "Orangutan".

Muc · 5th February 2014, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

They say they need $250,000 to $300,000.

They don't seem to mention anywhere what they are planning to do with the money.

Looks trustworthy.

Foolmewunz · 5th February 2014, 01:36 AM

Originally Posted by Muc

They don't seem to mention anywhere what they are planning to do with the money.

Looks trustworthy.

Paid gunslingers. They're not going to mis-manage the signatures themselves this time, but hire a public relations consultancy to do it for them. See the OP. They say that if they raise the money, this virtually guarantees them enough signatures. That's about ten bucks a signature which is rather on the high end of the costs for collecting signatures (yes, this is a common practice - there are companies whose business is doing just that).

Muc · 5th February 2014, 02:14 AM

Looks like a lucrative business.

So they are literally buying the signatures?

SpitfireIX · 5th February 2014, 05:58 AM

Originally Posted by Foolmewunz

Paid gunslingers. They're not going to mis-manage the signatures themselves this time, but hire a public relations consultancy to do it for them. See the OP. They say that if they raise the money, this virtually guarantees them enough signatures. That's about ten bucks a signature which is rather on the high end of the costs for collecting signatures (yes, this is a common practice - there are companies whose business is doing just that).

Just a side note on this: if a company employs enough reasonably attractive young women (generally college students) as signature gatherers, it's virtually guaranteed to meet its quota, no matter how outrageous the petition.

SpitfireIX · 5th February 2014, 06:03 AM

Originally Posted by Muc

Looks like a lucrative business.

So they are literally buying the signatures?

No. They employ paid signature gatherers. If you have enough people collecting, you're virtually guaranteed to meet your quota. To expand on my previous post, if a company hires attractive young women, there will be lots of men who will at least listen to the pitch, and probably go along in an attempt to curry favor with the signature taker, or at least spend more time enjoying the eye candy.

SpitfireIX · 5th February 2014, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Well, they've only raised $3,103 so far ($1,027 in the past 33 hours) so not much.

They're averaging around $1,034 a day. Let's see if they can keep this up.

Donation tally here:
http://highrisesafetynyc.org/donate/

They say they need $250,000 to $300,000.

There are 152 days between Feb 2 when they began, and when the fundraising drive is due to end (July 3).

Even if they keep this up, they'll only raise $157,168 and they won't make it.

Erm, last time didn't they claim they had donors ready to pony up millions of dollars to fund their new investigation?

LashL · 5th February 2014, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by jhunter1163

They were, indeed.

This petition does appear to be better-written than the other one was. However, it's still obviously agenda-driven, and the ballot process in NYC is designed to make things very difficult indeed for agenda-driven people. We'll see what develops.

I agree that it's better written than the previous one (which was a complete clusterfail from start to finish) but I think that this do-over still has some fatal problems. I will hold off on pointing those out until the group is beyond the point where the wording of the petition can be changed, though.

1st February 2014, 04:02 PM	#1
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,313	NYCCAN - New NY Ballot Initiative 2014 NYCCAN lives to fail another day! Just got an email from their dusty old email account. "The New York City Coalition for Accountability Now (NYC CAN) is excited to announce the launch of the “High-rise Safety Initiative,” a new ballot initiative that will amend the New York City Charter to require the NYC Department of Buildings to investigate all high-rise building collapses occurring in New York City on or after September 11, 2001, except the collapse of WTC 1 and 2. The Initiative will apply to the collapse of WTC 7 on September 11, 2001, as well as any high-rise collapse that occurs in the future. "As many of you know, the City of New York blocked NYC CAN’s 2009 ballot initiative from going before the voters and becoming law. Five years later, we are sponsoring a new ballot initiative that has been carefully crafted to withstand any legal challenge the City might bring." High Rise Safety Ballot Initiative "For the proposed charter amendment to appear on the November 4, 2014 ballot, we need to submit 30,000 signatures from registered New York City voters by July 3, 2014, and a second submission of 15,000 signatures by September 5, 2014. To be sure we have enough valid signatures, the High-rise Safety Initiative is aiming to gather 75,000 signatures for the first submission, and 35,000 signatures for the second submission." They're expecting they might have a legal battle. Get this: "The petition drive, which will run from May to July 2014, will cost $250,000. The High-rise Safety Initiative is working with a political consulting firm that specializes in field operations to manage the petition drive – which all but ensures that we will successfully gather enough signatures if we meet our fundraising goal. After that, up to $50,000 may be needed for litigation." Ted Walter appears to be managing the initiative. No mention of thermite or controlled demolition in the About page, but stolen steel and "no highrise had ever collapsed from fire" makes it pretty obvious they're not interested in an investigation which confirms what we already know.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

1st February 2014, 04:24 PM	#2
DGM Skeptic not Atheist Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 24,734	This should be easy. Quote: Earlier this month, a petition was created on the White House's "We the People" site calling for the government to deport Justin Bieber and revoke his green card. As of this afternoon, there are 223,269 signatures on this position. 30,000? no problem
	__________________ "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 Last edited by DGM; 1st February 2014 at 04:26 PM.

1st February 2014, 04:41 PM	#3
MileHighMadness Muse Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Just Southeast of Hell Posts: 694	Hey...sent us money...and more money...we are the good guys! [dws]
	__________________ Conspiracy theories are for morons, who like to feel they are smarter than everyone else…

1st February 2014, 04:52 PM	#4
thedopefishlives Graduate Poster Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 1,696	So they want an investigation of WTC7, basically. Even NYCCAN'T has given up on nanothermite and controlled demolition.
	__________________ Truthers only insist that there must have been some sinister purpose behind [WTC7] because they already think there's a sinister purpose behind everything. -Horatius

1st February 2014, 05:08 PM	#5
DGM Skeptic not Atheist Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 24,734	Quote: "As many of you know, the City of New York blocked NYC CAN’s 2009 ballot initiative from going before the voters and becoming law". If these people were really into the truth this statement would read: "As you know we screwed up and forgot to read up on state laws. We proposed a law that would have violated the law by side stepping the courts and putting the law in our hands. We know this sounds good but, it's illegal. We appreciate all the money you gave us but, we need more. We will achieve nothing but you will feel good about knowing we can eat tonight. In "truth we trust:. "
	__________________ "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

1st February 2014, 05:26 PM	#6
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,313	NYCCAN Fail 2009: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=149614
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

1st February 2014, 08:15 PM	#7
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,229	IANAL, but I'm betting a court would throw out the retroactive investigation provision. Also, I'll bet they'll get some push-back on the building permit surcharge. Of course, that may be what they want; to a lot of Truthers, there really is no such thing as bad publicity.
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz

2nd February 2014, 01:39 AM	#8
cjnewson88 Graduate Poster Join Date: Oct 2011 Posts: 1,733	I predict Failure.
	__________________ Common sense has clearly been snuck up on from behind beaten several times on the head and left to bleed. For my complete compilation of evidence showing AAL77 hit the Pentagon -http://therightbloggerbastard.blogspot.co.nz/ For my compilation of evidence for UAL93 - http://ual93.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/user/cjnewson88

2nd February 2014, 03:00 AM	#9
ozeco41 Philosopher Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Moss Vale, NSW, Australia Posts: 7,592	Originally Posted by cjnewson88 I predict Failure. ...and claiming success.

2nd February 2014, 03:57 AM	#10
tsig a carbon based life-form Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 39,049	Originally Posted by ozeco41 ...and claiming success. They know there’s no success like failure And that failure’s no success at all http://www.bobdylan.com/us/songs/lov...-zero-no-limit

2nd February 2014, 04:50 AM	#11
JSanderO Illuminator Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: nyc Posts: 3,199	This group appeals to the naivete of people with no technical understanding whatsoever and a belief that government will always lie whenever they issue official statements about anything. That combination of naive and let's call it distrustful is large enough to raise money to run their organization and to essentially force an official response which will reject the claims and then becomes proof... the self fulfilling prophesy to this group that they were lied to. They can't lose and they return again with the same old same old and more "proof" of conspiracy. It's pathetic in the face of all the excellent technical analysis which has been done over the years... and which they simply close their minds to.
	__________________ So many idiots and so little time.

2nd February 2014, 07:30 AM	#12
Muc Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 388	Same Project Coordinator as ReThink911, same web developer. Probably other overlaps, too. This here is an activity that leans heavily towards the lobbying side, though, so they probably couldn't do it under the tax-exempt umbrella of AE911Truth.
Muc Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 388

3rd February 2014, 01:51 AM	#13
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	So, how many high rise building collapses have there been since WTC 7? Zero?
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

3rd February 2014, 02:13 AM	#14
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,313	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz So, how many high rise building collapses have there been since WTC 7? Zero? Exactly. And note, they didn't mention any of the smaller WTC buildings that collapsed on 9/11. Total ignorance. They couldn't get 30,000 signatures five years ago. It would be a miracle if they get that many by July.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

3rd February 2014, 03:32 AM	#15
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay Exactly. And note, they didn't mention any of the smaller WTC buildings that collapsed on 9/11. Total ignorance. They couldn't get 30,000 signatures five years ago. It would be a miracle if they get that many by July. Didn't they have a running on-line count going last time? I checked the site and there was nothing. They usually show the first few hundred signatures and fake couple of thousand in donations when they start these things up, don't they?
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

3rd February 2014, 05:47 AM	#16
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by Miragememories "Mistakes in the details" IS THE STORY. MM That would be the story in some other thread. The story in this thread is about the liars at NYCCAN playing a little fancy free with the law and using sophistry to try to get their pet project on the ballot again. Did you have something to say on this important ballot initiative, or just like NYCCAN are you trawling the old fishing lanes hoping for a nibble? If they spent several years studying the law, I don't think they did a very good job of it. Any New York lawyers in the house? Does a ballot initiative that has taxation as part of it have any standing under law? In short, are they just hoping for a Pyrrhic victory in getting it on the ballot so they can claim they've done something?
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

3rd February 2014, 06:14 AM	#17
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,229	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz If they spent several years studying the law, I don't think they did a very good job of it. Any New York lawyers in the house? Does a ballot initiative that has taxation as part of it have any standing under law? In short, are they just hoping for a Pyrrhic victory in getting it on the ballot so they can claim they've done something? IANAL, but, as was discussed in regard to NYCCAN's previous failed initiative, basically, any proposal that costs money is required to include a funding mechanism. This is black-letter law, and is one of several major reasons that said previous initiative was unable to pass judicial muster; the court did not accept that donations would provide a legitimate basis for supplying revenue. ETA: As I mentioned up-thread, I expect there will be some push-back from building contractors who don't want to pay more for building permits, but that's probably just fine with NYCCAN.
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz Last edited by SpitfireIX; 3rd February 2014 at 06:17 AM. Reason: Additional comment

3rd February 2014, 02:45 PM	#18
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,313	Originally Posted by Foolmewunz Didn't they have a running on-line count going last time? I checked the site and there was nothing. They usually show the first few hundred signatures and fake couple of thousand in donations when they start these things up, don't they? You can see their fundraising tally at the Donate page: http://highrisesafetynyc.org/donate/ $2,075 so far. Haven't seen a signature tally, but I believe they're being collected on paper.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

3rd February 2014, 06:30 PM	#19
LashL Goddess of Legaltainment™ Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 35,959	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay NYCCAN Fail 2009: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=149614 Ah, memories. Good times, good times.

4th February 2014, 12:17 AM	#20
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,313	Originally Posted by LashL Ah, memories. Good times, good times. Lots of lovely Legaltainment^TM!
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

4th February 2014, 12:56 AM	#21
Brainster Penultimate Amazing Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 18,726	Hmmm, no mention yet of this on Flogger or 9-11Truth dot org. Could it be that they're learning from the past debacles? Just kidding. I expect some posting activity at both sites soon.
	__________________ My new blog: Recent Reads. 1960s Comic Book Nostalgia Visit the Screw Loose Change blog.

4th February 2014, 04:11 AM	#22
jhunter1163 beer-swilling semiliterate Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes. Posts: 25,455	Originally Posted by LashL Ah, memories. Good times, good times. They were, indeed. This petition does appear to be better-written than the other one was. However, it's still obviously agenda-driven, and the ballot process in NYC is designed to make things very difficult indeed for agenda-driven people. We'll see what develops.

4th February 2014, 04:21 AM	#23
jhunter1163 beer-swilling semiliterate Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Connecticut, or King Arthur's Court. Hard to tell sometimes. Posts: 25,455	Here's the heart of the petition: Quote: 5. Investigatory Authority. Provided that the Department’s powers under this Act shall be limited solely to the City, and that the Department shall not be authorized, under this Act, to exercise subpoena power over any non-City public official or to enter or inspect any building, structure, enclosure, or premises located outside the City, in the Commissioner’s discretion, the Department and its Employees and Agents, to the extent permitted by and in compliance with the Law, shall have the following authority: a) To compel, through subpoena, the attendance of witnesses, the taking of oaths, the examination of witnesses, and the production of books, papers, and other documents; b) To enter and inspect any building, structure, enclosure, premises or any part thereof, anything therein, or anything attached thereto; c) To consult and coordinate with other City departments and agencies; and d) To exercise all other investigatory powers authorized by Law. A) So they don't have subpoena power under 5, but they have subpoena power under 5a. B) Any building? You mean they could come in my house? Got a Fourth Amendment problem here, guys. C) But WTC7 has already been investigated. They just didn't like the results.

4th February 2014, 08:52 AM	#24
carlitos "más divertido" Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: USA! USA! Posts: 24,338	Originally Posted by jhunter1163 B) Any building? You mean they could come in my house? Got a Fourth Amendment problem here, guys. Why do you hate freedom?

4th February 2014, 01:09 PM	#25
DGM Skeptic not Atheist Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 24,734	Wouldn't be the ultimate slap if this gets passed and the department votes unanimously to adopt the NIST findings.
	__________________ "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41

4th February 2014, 02:02 PM	#26
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,313	Originally Posted by jhunter1163 A) So they don't have subpoena power under 5, but they have subpoena power under 5a. I think 5 is outside the city, and A is meant to be inside the city, but it isn't written properly.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

4th February 2014, 04:35 PM	#27
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,229	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay I think 5 is outside the city, and A is meant to be inside the city, but it isn't written properly. It seems clear to me, but maybe I'm mentally filling in what should be written.
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz

4th February 2014, 04:45 PM	#28
DGM Skeptic not Atheist Join Date: May 2007 Location: West of Northshore MA Posts: 24,734	Originally Posted by SpitfireIX It seems clear to me, but maybe I'm mentally filling in what should be written. I'd love to know what that would be. Can a non-judicial body inside a city government be granted judicial powers by ballot vote? ETA: I could be wrong but, doesn't it require a judge to issue a subpoena?
	__________________ "Remember that the goal of conspiracy rhetoric is to bog down the discussion, not to make progress toward a solution" Jay Windley "How many leaves on the seventh branch of the fourth tree?" is meaningless when you are in the wrong forest: ozeco41 Last edited by DGM; 4th February 2014 at 04:53 PM.

4th February 2014, 04:56 PM	#29
SpitfireIX Philosopher Join Date: May 2007 Location: Niceville, Florida, USA Posts: 5,229	Originally Posted by DGM I'd love to know what that would be. Can a non-judicial body inside a city government be granted judicial powers by ballot vote? If the ballot initiative passes, and is found not to violate any provisions of the initiative law, or of the NY State Constitution, it will become law just as if the NYC Council had passed it. Many non-judicial investigative bodies have subpoena power, e. g., the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).
	__________________ "My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right." --Carl Schurz

4th February 2014, 05:35 PM	#30
dudalb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Sacramento Posts: 54,815	How much of a boost did they get from the Truther who crashed the post Superbowl News Conference shouting Truther Slogans?

4th February 2014, 05:58 PM	#31
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by DGM Wouldn't be the ultimate slap if this gets passed and the department votes unanimously to adopt the NIST findings. But not before they exercise their rights and inspect the NYCCAN building to make sure it's not in danger of imminent collapse. It could take weeks. And they better take out some walls and ceilings to inspect the beams and joists.
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.

4th February 2014, 11:21 PM	#32
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,313	Originally Posted by dudalb How much of a boost did they get from the Truther who crashed the post Superbowl News Conference shouting Truther Slogans? Well, they've only raised $3,103 so far ($1,027 in the past 33 hours) so not much. They're averaging around $1,034 a day. Let's see if they can keep this up. Donation tally here: http://highrisesafetynyc.org/donate/ They say they need $250,000 to $300,000. There are 152 days between Feb 2 when they began, and when the fundraising drive is due to end (July 3). Even if they keep this up, they'll only raise $157,168 and they won't make it.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

4th February 2014, 11:42 PM	#33
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 40,313	Originally Posted by Brainster Hmmm, no mention yet of this on Flogger or 9-11Truth dot org. Could it be that they're learning from the past debacles? Just kidding. I expect some posting activity at both sites soon. Still nothing on http://www.911truth.org/ But there seems to have been an article a day or two ago on Flogger by someone called "Joe". http://911blogger.com/news/2014-02-0...ety-initiative One pathetic comment (unrelated to the initiative) so far, by "Orangutan".
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

5th February 2014, 01:13 AM	#34
Muc Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 388	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay They say they need $250,000 to $300,000. They don't seem to mention anywhere what they are planning to do with the money. Looks trustworthy.
Muc Critical Thinker Join Date: Dec 2010 Posts: 388

5th February 2014, 01:36 AM	#35
Foolmewunz Grammar Resistance Leader TLA Dictator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Pattaya, Thailand Posts: 41,468	Originally Posted by Muc They don't seem to mention anywhere what they are planning to do with the money. Looks trustworthy. Paid gunslingers. They're not going to mis-manage the signatures themselves this time, but hire a public relations consultancy to do it for them. See the OP. They say that if they raise the money, this virtually guarantees them enough signatures. That's about ten bucks a signature which is rather on the high end of the costs for collecting signatures (yes, this is a common practice - there are companies whose business is doing just that).
	__________________ Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable. Last edited by Foolmewunz; 5th February 2014 at 01:37 AM.