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Tags murder cases , Shrien Dewani , South Africa incidents

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Old 6th March 2014, 03:55 AM   #1
anglolawyer
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Shrien Dewani - Honeymoon murder

I am surprised there is no thread for this fascinating case. So, I'm starting one And I am also committing myself to a position of pro-innocence for Shrien Dewani.

He married Anni Dewani on 29th October 2010 in Mumbai and arranged for her murder in Cape Town, SA, on 13th November (so it is alleged). He did this by conspiring with the taxi driver who picked them up at the airport on 7th November to have her bumped off for R15,000. The taxi driver contacted a go-between who contacted two assassins from Gugulethu township. On the night of the 13th, the taxi was hi-jacked in the township, Shrien and the taxi driver were forced out, the taxi was driven off and Anni was shot dead.

All the conspirators were identified and caught. The taxi driver got 18 years. One of the assassins pleaded guilty and gave evidence against the other one. They both got heavy sentences (details not to hand). The go-between got … off scot free!

Dewani returned to the UK a few days after the killing and has been in extradition proceedings ever since. Most recently, his latest attempt to resist extradition was recently turned down and he is due to be shipped off shortly as far as I understand. He has held out so long mainly on account of his poor health (PTSD and acute depression).

Why not guilty?
  1. The case fails the smell test,
  2. the witnesses against him are all criminals with much to gain by lying and there are serious problems with the alleged plan.
  3. Also, some of the early claims of incriminating texts passing between him and the taxi driver seem to be unsubstantiated.
  4. there is a serviceable alternative theory - a simply robbery that went wrong
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Old 6th March 2014, 04:15 AM   #2
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Insufficient data. Though given that Skwinty seems to have abandoned his Willingham case thread maybe it's worth a look.
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Old 6th March 2014, 04:20 AM   #3
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What about the CCTV camara footage of the people in the lift? Sorry, I'm just remembering this from a TV broadcast.

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Old 6th March 2014, 04:34 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by catsmate1 View Post
Insufficient data. Though given that Skwinty seems to have abandoned his Willingham case thread maybe it's worth a look.
Actually there is a lot out there. There has been a pretty active discussion at IIP and all kinds of stuff is available.

Originally Posted by Rolfe View Post
What about the CCTV camara footage of the people in the lift? Sorry, I'm just remembering this from a TV broadcast.

Rolfe.
Er, what? LOL. What about it?

Consider this (anybody) the taxi driver says the deal was R15,000 for the hit and the evidence goes into some detail about how this was sourced and directed to the two killers. There is nothing about payment to Tongo (the taxi guy) or Mbolombo (the go-between) nor anything about the much more valuable jewellery they were flashing, including a R250,000 watch (IIRC) she was wearing.

The terms of the deal make no sense. Tongo was getting nothing, losing his cab and getting tossed out of it in the middle of the night, for what? Explain his end. Explain Mbolombo's end too. Much more likely is the plan was to rob both of them of everything with the robbers taking the cash and the other two fencing the jewellery (Tongo even knew a dodgy jeweller who was willing to exchange currency on the black market) but the robbers got interested in Anni and added rape to the mix and then she got shot while putting up a fight. The police put the screws on and they all started to sing (except Mngeni, one of the two killers) whatever tune the cops wanted.

The plus for the Cape Town police and tourist office would be the killing would not be the result of endemic crime that might drive tourists away but rather an exotic and unusual professional hit. And there may be a drop of confirmation bias in there somewhere too.
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Old 6th March 2014, 04:42 AM   #5
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Here is a fair slew of articles about the case. Obviously all of the more recent articles refer only to the extradition hearings. anglolawyer, you are correct that he's facing iminent extradition, but AFAIK, he has appealed to the UK supreme court and rumours about that if that fails, he will approach the European Union courts.

http://www.news24.com/Tags/People/shrien_dewani

In fact, this may be one of the main reasons many South Africans believe he is guilty. He initially promised police that he would return if he was required to do so and was allowed to leave. Since charges were filed he has fought tooth and nail on pretty flimsy grounds that he is too traumatized to stand trial in SA. Sounds more to me like he knows what he did and that its likely he'll be convicted if he returns.

I'm willing to be convinced that he is in fact innocent, and perhaps I'm misremembering the facts of the case, but didn't at least 2 of the convicted killers implicate Shrien during their confessions?

Is there any evidence to support the rumour the Shrien is gay? (goes to motive)
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Old 6th March 2014, 04:50 AM   #6
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Panorama have done a couple of good specials on the case, with the most recent backing the theory that the money was for a surprise helicopter flight, being arranged by the go-between, who figured the Dewanis were therefore worth setting up for a robbery. The contract killing angle just doesn't stack up, not least because the taxi driver's supposed cut was less than his monthly salary earnings.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 6th March 2014 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 6th March 2014, 04:55 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
The plus for the Cape Town police and tourist office would be the killing would not be the result of endemic crime that might drive tourists away but rather an exotic and unusual professional hit. And there may be a drop of confirmation bias in there somewhere too.

Dammit, stop destroying my preciously held convictions that this is the land of milk and honey!

I would just note a few things:

a) All three of the murderers were in fact convicted and all three got pretty lengthy sentences. Tongo got an effective 18 years.

b) Tongo was the taxi driver. That does not imply he owned the Taxi. The taxi's being referred to here are what we call mini-buses. Some are owner-driven, but very few. Most of the drivers work for someone who might own several taxi's. They do not make a lot of money.

R15 000 for someone like that is a fortune in a country where 35% of the population is unemployed and his take-home income from doing tours is probably around R3000 - R5000 a month.
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Old 6th March 2014, 04:55 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
In fact, this may be one of the main reasons many South Africans believe he is guilty. He initially promised police that he would return if he was required to do so and was allowed to leave. Since charges were filed he has fought tooth and nail on pretty flimsy grounds that he is too traumatized to stand trial in SA. Sounds more to me like he knows what he did and that its likely he'll be convicted if he returns.
He was probably willing until he found out that there are no jury trials in SA.
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Old 6th March 2014, 04:56 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Panorama have done a couple of good specials on the case, with the most recent backing the theory that the money was for a surprise helicopter flight, being arranged by the go-between, who figured the Dewanis were therefore worth setting up for a robbery. The contract killing angle just doesn't stack up, not least because the taxi driver's supposed cut was less than his monthly salary.
OK, please, please cite for that.

I find that incredibly difficult to believe. A Taxi driver making in excess of R15k per month? That's very definitely a white-collar, office salary. Not that of a taxi driver.
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Old 6th March 2014, 05:02 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
R15 000 for someone like that is a fortune in a country where 35% of the population is unemployed and his take-home income from doing tours is probably around R3000 - R5000 a month.
The money was supposedly split three ways; Tongo's cut was between a third and a half of his usual monthly earnings. How is that a "fortune"?

Last edited by Information Analyst; 6th March 2014 at 06:49 AM.
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Old 6th March 2014, 05:06 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
OK, please, please cite for that.
BBC Panorama of 19 September 2013.

Quote:
I find that incredibly difficult to believe. A Taxi driver making in excess of R15k per month? That's very definitely a white-collar, office salary. Not that of a taxi driver.
That's because you're confusing the supposed total of the "contract" with Tongo's supposed cut of it, which was R5,000 although he claims he only got R1,000. We can infer that he usually earned R10,00-15,000 max. For someone bussing wealthy tourists around, that doesn't sound so outrageous.

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Old 6th March 2014, 05:07 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Here is a fair slew of articles about the case. Obviously all of the more recent articles refer only to the extradition hearings. anglolawyer, you are correct that he's facing iminent extradition, but AFAIK, he has appealed to the UK supreme court and rumours about that if that fails, he will approach the European Union courts.

http://www.news24.com/Tags/People/shrien_dewani

In fact, this may be one of the main reasons many South Africans believe he is guilty. He initially promised police that he would return if he was required to do so and was allowed to leave. Since charges were filed he has fought tooth and nail on pretty flimsy grounds that he is too traumatized to stand trial in SA. Sounds more to me like he knows what he did and that its likely he'll be convicted if he returns.

I'm willing to be convinced that he is in fact innocent, and perhaps I'm misremembering the facts of the case, but didn't at least 2 of the convicted killers implicate Shrien during their confessions?

Is there any evidence to support the rumour the Shrien is gay? (goes to motive)
First, you may well be right about further appeals.

Second, if I were faced with the prospect of spending months waiting trial in a South African jail I would resist extradition guilty or innocent. Who would want to be raped, beaten up and contract AIDS? I don't know why he can't have bail like Oscar. I guess that cannot be determined by the extraditing court and the shared assumption in the proceedings so far has been that he would be in custody pending trial. That sufficiently explains (to me) his resistance to extradition.

Third, his symptoms do seem to be genuine and he may well be unfit to plead. I say this based on reading various judgments in the case already handed down in the course of the extradition process.

I think only Zola Tongo (taxi driver) had any direct dealings with him so he is the only direct witness against Shrien.

I have not seen any evidence about him being gay (as distinct from rumour) but even if he were I would not regard it as much of a motive.

Like you, I am willing to be convinced too. The texts he is supposed to have exchanged from the back of the cab as they drove into the township might do it - except it looks like there aren't any. I would certainly need a heck of a lot more than Tongo's word to be satisfied in this case.
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Old 6th March 2014, 05:09 AM   #13
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Anyone who wants to bone up on the judgments so far in the extradition process can read here.
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Old 6th March 2014, 05:26 AM   #14
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Speaking entirely from memory, I thought that a piece of evidence that was damning for Dewani was that he met up with the taxi driver after the murder to hand him over some money, and this was captured on CCTV?
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Old 6th March 2014, 05:38 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Tanja View Post
Speaking entirely from memory, I thought that a piece of evidence that was damning for Dewani was that he met up with the taxi driver after the murder to hand him over some money, and this was captured on CCTV?
It's only "damning" if you believe the money could only ever have been for the supposed hit, as opposed to - say - the pre-arranged fee for setting up the surprise helicopter flight*, which obviously didn't go ahead.

* There is CCTV footage at the go-between's workplace, where his colleagues are clearly asking him about the helicopter flight.

This seems to be the full programme - the "helicopter" CCTV is at around 27:00:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


Obviously the comments are funll of ranty nonsense, e.g. the "billionaire" Dewani somehow managed to bribe the BBC to make the programme!?!?!

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Old 6th March 2014, 05:38 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Tanja View Post
Speaking entirely from memory, I thought that a piece of evidence that was damning for Dewani was that he met up with the taxi driver after the murder to hand him over some money, and this was captured on CCTV?
That's right. He paid him R1,000 in a room in the hotel. CCTV has the two of them going in but doe snot capture them inside. Dewani enters with a carrier bag and Tongo leaves with it. I don't know how anybody knows the amount but I understand it to be accepted it was just R1,000 which is about £100.

The really weird thing about this is that it is supposed to tie in with the original agreement that the price was R15,000. One of the robbers' evidence was that they ended up with only R14,000 and we are supposed to believe this trip was to collect the balance. That was very big of Tongo! There is, however, zero evidence of his collecting his or Mbolombo's cut. How come? How, by what means and when were they going to get paid? I can find no reference to this in the description of the deal but it ought to be there. Oh and by the way, the robbers did take some of her jewellery so Shrien should have been freaking out at Tongo about that as the deal, as described, was R15,000 only.

My own theory is this was his taxi fare which Shrien felt honour bound to pay. Why the carrier bag I have no idea, but the payment was made in a public room in the hotel in the presence of at least one other.
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Old 6th March 2014, 05:47 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
BBC Panorama of 19 September 2013.

That's because you're confusing the supposed total of the "contract" with Tongo's supposed cut of it, which was R5,000 although he claims he only got R1,000. We can infer that he usually earned R10,00-15,000 max. For someone bussing wealthy tourists around, that doesn't sound so outrageous.

With respect, your inference has no basis in fact and that salary does sound outrageous. I actually live here and know how much things cost. If the average salary for taxi drivers in CT is R10k per month, I should give up my job and start driving taxi's.

I very much doubt that the taxi driver made more than about R5k per month, if that.
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Old 6th March 2014, 06:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
With respect, your inference has no basis in fact and that salary does sound outrageous.
Your outrage seems to be aimed at simple mathematics. My inference is based on the programme stating he supposedly got R5,000 as his share of the "contract," and that that was between a third and a half of his usual earnings. I've provide a link to the programme, which you are obviously free to watch.

Quote:
I actually live here and know how much things cost. If the average salary for taxi drivers in CT is R10k per month, I should give up my job and start driving taxi's.
What makes you think Tongo was an "average" taxi driver? HE was self-evidently serving the airport and high class hotels. Even in the UK that's known to be high value work for taxi drivers.

Quote:
I very much doubt that the taxi driver made more than about R5k per month, if that.
So even then you think someone with a steady job would be willing to risk it and be involved in murder for a month's salary? Are South Africans so easily corruptible?

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Old 6th March 2014, 06:22 AM   #19
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OK, it's from the Daily Mail, but...

"Question 7: How significant was the sum paid to Tongo?

Tongo was employed as a full-time driver by Platinum Escape Tours company at the time of the hijacking. Company boss Christo Jansen van Vuuyren says he paid Tongo R5,000 (£445 at the time) a month, but adds that he would have earned extra in tips, perhaps as much as R2,000 (£178). Contrary to company policy, Tongo also moonlighted as a taxi driver in his own VW Sharan.

Van Vuuren says Tongo might have earned another R2,000 a month from his moonlighting work, meaning that he could have earned as much as R9,000 (£801) a month in total. So his share of the R15,000 (£1,335) it is alleged he was paid to arrange the killing would have been the equivalent of around two weeks’ work." [source]

This does, of course, run contrary to Octavo's disbelief that Tongo a) owned his own vehicle, and b) earned what he did.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 6th March 2014 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 6th March 2014, 06:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
It's only "damning" if you believe the money could only ever have been for the supposed hit, as opposed to - say - the pre-arranged fee for setting up the surprise helicopter flight*, which obviously didn't go ahead.
To me, that whole side of the story about a helicopter flight booking makes even less sense. One of the main rules of travelling in a country that has high crime and poverty is to book trips through reputable travel agencies, of which there are plenty in South Africa, and not to flash your cash to strangers. Booking a helicopter flight by passing over lots of cash to a taxi driver I just met couple of days ago makes no sense to me whatsoever.

Also, if my beloved partner was murdered couple of days before, and the taxi driver was present at the scene of crime even after I was kicked out of the car, no I wouldn't dream of meeting him in the hotel and giving him lots of money for a down payment for a trip that would never take place. In the unlikely case that I would even think about paying him, I'd do with the police present or via solicitors, but probably not at all.

So, no I have no evidence, clearly - I only read what I read in the press - but I still consider that CCTV footage very damning.
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Old 6th March 2014, 06:25 AM   #21
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Respectfully, I think Tongo got nothing. This is the problem. His own evidence is that the fee for the hit was to be R15000. Then at some point he wove into his story that he and Mbolombo would get R5000 each. So that's R25,000. OK, so follow the money. Where and when did Shrien hand over the loot?

I suspect the whole story has been stitched together as a result of desperate lying coupled with police pressure producing a scenario which ought to have had the cops scratching their heads and asking whether people were really this stupid. I also think the cops themselves may have driven their co-operative witnesses towards their own theory of the conspiracy.

We must not only believe that Shrien jumped off the plane and leapt straight into a criminal conspiracy with a random taxi driver but also that they all went along with a deal that made no sense for at least two of the participants.
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Old 6th March 2014, 06:42 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Tongo was employed as a full-time driver by Platinum Escape Tours company at the time of the hijacking. Company boss Christo Jansen van Vuuyren says he paid Tongo R5,000 (£445 at the time) a month, but adds that he would have earned extra in tips, perhaps as much as R2,000 (£178). Contrary to company policy, Tongo also moonlighted as a taxi driver in his own VW Sharan.

This does, of course, run contrary to Octavo's disbelief that Tongo a) owned his own vehicle, and b) earned what he did.

Without getting into a slapfight over this, I will point out that my assertion that R5k was a more reasonable salary turns out to be spot on as that is in fact what he was paid per month. I was unaware that he was also moonlighting as a taxi driver in his spare time.
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Old 6th March 2014, 06:45 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Tanja View Post
To me, that whole side of the story about a helicopter flight booking makes even less sense. One of the main rules of travelling in a country that has high crime and poverty is to book trips through reputable travel agencies, of which there are plenty in South Africa, and not to flash your cash to strangers. Booking a helicopter flight by passing over lots of cash to a taxi driver I just met couple of days ago makes no sense to me whatsoever.
"Naive tourist does naive thing" is hardly shocking news.

Quote:
Also, if my beloved partner was murdered couple of days before, and the taxi driver was present at the scene of crime even after I was kicked out of the car, no I wouldn't dream of meeting him in the hotel and giving him lots of money for a down payment for a trip that would never take place. In the unlikely case that I would even think about paying him, I'd do with the police present or via solicitors, but probably not at all.
Except that Dewani contact Tongo via a police officer, after the same police had said he (Tongo) was clean.

Quote:
So, no I have no evidence, clearly - I only read what I read in the press - but I still consider that CCTV footage very damning.
Which CCTV footage? That of the go-between's colleagues discussing the helicopter trip?
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Old 6th March 2014, 06:48 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Octavo View Post
Without getting into a slapfight over this, I will point out that my assertion that R5k was a more reasonable salary turns out to be spot on as that is in fact what he was paid per month. I was unaware that he was also moonlighting as a taxi driver in his spare time.
You also thought he didn't own his own vehicle.

Do you still think that someone can be bought into murder for a month's salary/less than their actual monthly earnings?

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Old 6th March 2014, 07:02 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
"Naive tourist does naive thing" is hardly shocking news.


Except that Dewani contact Tongo via a police officer, after the same police had said he (Tongo) was clean.


Which CCTV footage? That of the go-between's colleagues discussing the helicopter trip?
If he contacted Tongo via a police officer, that does make the handover of money a bit more plausible. I was referring to the CCTV footage of Dewani handing over money to Tongo, or rather Dewani walking into (a hotel?) with a bag of money, and Tongo walking out carrying it.

Just to add, while I find the idea there was a legitimate reason to hand over money to the taxi driver after the murder implausible, I also find it implausible that a random taxi driver, when approached by a tourist who wants to murder his wife, immediately agrees to arrange it.
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Old 6th March 2014, 01:05 PM   #26
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I have been constantly irritated by the SA approach to Dewani's extradition.

His illnesses are self reported and no malingering tests have ever been done. SA accepted the diagnosis way too easily. The first expert they instructed had started up a business with the expert instructed by Dewani which he failed to disclose,

Dewani was fine until he was a suspect. He gave interviews, wrestled with his guilt (which by 3 days after the murder he had reconciled by declaring he had thought about it and there was nothing else he could do) and held a pizza party.

Once he was a suspect and extradition proceedings started he developed PTSD. The elephant in the room never seemingly addressed by the medical experts is that if he killed his wife his symptoms are a con.

He has for the last 2 years been ensconced in a hospital near his family home. He goes home every day for several hours to swim, eat, watch TV and browse the internet.

The hospital allowed him to install a campervan in the grounds where he goes to avoid treatment and where he has internet access. No one has ever checked to see what he has looked at.

I guess everyone has to accept the diagnosis but it rankles with me. At the same time his PR agency instructed within days of his return to England issues statements saying he wants to return to clear his name, his QC is issuing every appeal under the sun to avoid it.

His last chance is a rule 39 application to the ECHR. But I strongly suspect that will not be the last effort he makes, as he has cleverly just started to get worse again and we will no doubt have a failed suicide attempt just before he is due to go.
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Old 6th March 2014, 01:45 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Suffolk Skeptic View Post
I have been constantly irritated by the SA approach to Dewani's extradition.

His illnesses are self reported and no malingering tests have ever been done. SA accepted the diagnosis way too easily. The first expert they instructed had started up a business with the expert instructed by Dewani which he failed to disclose,

Dewani was fine until he was a suspect. He gave interviews, wrestled with his guilt (which by 3 days after the murder he had reconciled by declaring he had thought about it and there was nothing else he could do) and held a pizza party.

Once he was a suspect and extradition proceedings started he developed PTSD. The elephant in the room never seemingly addressed by the medical experts is that if he killed his wife his symptoms are a con.

He has for the last 2 years been ensconced in a hospital near his family home. He goes home every day for several hours to swim, eat, watch TV and browse the internet.

The hospital allowed him to install a campervan in the grounds where he goes to avoid treatment and where he has internet access. No one has ever checked to see what he has looked at.

I guess everyone has to accept the diagnosis but it rankles with me. At the same time his PR agency instructed within days of his return to England issues statements saying he wants to return to clear his name, his QC is issuing every appeal under the sun to avoid it.

His last chance is a rule 39 application to the ECHR. But I strongly suspect that will not be the last effort he makes, as he has cleverly just started to get worse again and we will no doubt have a failed suicide attempt just before he is due to go.
Wow. And if he's innocent?
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Old 6th March 2014, 01:52 PM   #28
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If I thought he was innocent, I would hardly be so irritated by the process thus far would I? That stands to reason and is hardly deserving of the "wow" which strongly infers that my post contains unreasonably extreme views.

Btw, the panorama documentaries are, imo, as biased and factually flawed as the recent BBC3 Amanda Knox documentary.
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Old 6th March 2014, 01:59 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Suffolk Skeptic View Post
If I thought he was innocent, I would hardly be so irritated by the process thus far would I? That stands to reason and is hardly deserving of the "wow" which strongly infers that my post contains unreasonably extreme views.

Btw, the panorama documentaries are, imo, as biased and factually flawed as the recent BBC3 Amanda Knox documentary.
Alright, keep your hair on. Why don't you think he is innocent? What did the BBC thing get wrong or distort in your opinion?
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Old 6th March 2014, 02:45 PM   #30
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Oh strewth, loads of things, I'd have to go through the entire programme again. The whole thing was presented in a way where Jeremy Vine asked loaded questions which suggested incompetence by SA or that all of the other suspects except the one who pleaded not guilty were lying.

One thing I can remember now is the rings and I've just checked. Jeremy Vine said that her wedding rings had been discovered, one beneath her body and the 25k engagement ring hidden in the rear seat. He then asked the question If this was murder made to look like robbery, why not take the rings? If it was simply an execution, wouldn’t the hitmen have stayed to check Anni was dead?

The questions are irksome anyway, because it supposes that because the rings weren't taken, it wasn't a murder made to look like a robbery, and because they didn't stick around for an indeterminate time after to check she was dead it wasn't a hit.

But that aside, the programme totally failed to address what Dewani has said about the rings and considering we have few direct quotes from him this was lamentable and poor reporting.

In his signed statement to the police made the day after he said

Quote:
The one male pointed the gun at me and said that I must make her shut up or he will shoot one of us. Anni gave me her wedding rings valued at £25,000. I gave the rings to the male.
He even said the value!

Then in an interview with the Sun a few days later he said

Quote:
Anni whispered to me in Gujarati so they couldn’t understand that she had hidden her wedding and engagement ring. All I could think about was saving our lives
Can't do links yet as a newbie.

So, one example of why I disliked that programme was that loaded questions were asked to suggest that the prosecution's case was not believable (in this case about the rings), whereas the very clear and unexplained discrepancies from Dewani on the same issue were ignored.
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Old 6th March 2014, 02:49 PM   #31
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B-BS-C

http://panoramabusted.wordpress.com/

The most recent BBC show was shockingly biased. And went so far as to sweep under the covers information the same "journalist" has presented in previous shows on the Dewani case.

The above website goes over the shortcomings of the program in excruciating detail.
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Old 6th March 2014, 03:01 PM   #32
anglolawyer
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Originally Posted by Suffolk Skeptic View Post
Oh strewth, loads of things, I'd have to go through the entire programme again. The whole thing was presented in a way where Jeremy Vine asked loaded questions which suggested incompetence by SA or that all of the other suspects except the one who pleaded not guilty were lying.

One thing I can remember now is the rings and I've just checked. Jeremy Vine said that her wedding rings had been discovered, one beneath her body and the 25k engagement ring hidden in the rear seat. He then asked the question If this was murder made to look like robbery, why not take the rings? If it was simply an execution, wouldn’t the hitmen have stayed to check Anni was dead?

The questions are irksome anyway, because it supposes that because the rings weren't taken, it wasn't a murder made to look like a robbery, and because they didn't stick around for an indeterminate time after to check she was dead it wasn't a hit.

But that aside, the programme totally failed to address what Dewani has said about the rings and considering we have few direct quotes from him this was lamentable and poor reporting.

In his signed statement to the police made the day after he said



He even said the value!

Then in an interview with the Sun a few days later he said



Can't do links yet as a newbie.

So, one example of why I disliked that programme was that loaded questions were asked to suggest that the prosecution's case was not believable (in this case about the rings), whereas the very clear and unexplained discrepancies from Dewani on the same issue were ignored.
Do you know how his statement was taken down by the police? Is it a tape someone has transcribed or is it Q and A? I don't know whether you have ever taken a statement. He might have been asked the value of the rings, answered £25K and before being asked what he did with them, saying he handed them over. The police then wrote down a compound answer like the one you reference. To me this seems more likely than that he just came out with the value as you imagine, but even if did I don't see the big deal.

One ring was found stuffed down the back of a seat. The really expensive one. Can you go further and try to make sense of the discrepancy in accounts. What does it signify? Is he just unable to tell the same story twice or was he trying to conceal something and, if so, what?
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Old 6th March 2014, 03:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Suffolk Skeptic View Post
...His last chance is a rule 39 application to the ECHR. But I strongly suspect that will not be the last effort he makes, as he has cleverly just started to get worse again and we will no doubt have a failed suicide attempt just before he is due to go.
His lawyers also recently begun trying to sell the line that his so-called illness is chronic and untreatable and that therefore he should never be put on the trial for his wife's murder.
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Old 6th March 2014, 03:13 PM   #34
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Yup that's the one that is written by someone from the Facebook Anni Hindocha page. Thanks. It's alright although I think some of it over eggs the accusations of conspiracy and bias. If I was allowed to link I would have gone to the rings section at number 5.

Oh bugger I meant to quote Lane99 post a few up, assume I have

Last edited by Suffolk Skeptic; 6th March 2014 at 03:15 PM. Reason: Missed quoting a post
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Old 6th March 2014, 03:32 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
Do you know how his statement was taken down by the police? Is it a tape someone has transcribed or is it Q and A? I don't know whether you have ever taken a statement. He might have been asked the value of the rings, answered £25K and before being asked what he did with them, saying he handed them over. The police then wrote down a compound answer like the one you reference. To me this seems more likely than that he just came out with the value as you imagine, but even if did I don't see the big deal.

One ring was found stuffed down the back of a seat. The really expensive one. Can you go further and try to make sense of the discrepancy in accounts. What does it signify? Is he just unable to tell the same story twice or was he trying to conceal something and, if so, what?
It is a handwritten statement.

I think the discrepancy in the accounts means that either Dewani was careless with his storytelling and forgot which version he had given, or that his wife told him she had hidden them but then when they were threatened he got her to retrieve them and gave them to the gunmen, who then after they had released Dewani but decided not to take Anni to the police station as they had said and decided to kill her instead, stuffed one of the rings under her body and the other behind the seat.

I favour the first possibility.
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Old 6th March 2014, 03:33 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by lane99 View Post
His lawyers also recently begun trying to sell the line that his so-called illness is chronic and untreatable and that therefore he should never be put on the trial for his wife's murder.
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It may well be untreatable seeing as he never appears to have received any treatment.
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Old 6th March 2014, 03:59 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
...So even then you think someone with a steady job would be willing to risk it and be involved in murder for a month's salary? Are South Africans so easily corruptible?
The taxi driver did not have any serious criminal record before he met up with Dewani. Although he had had many well-off clients whom he could have ripped off if he was so inclined.

And, yes, the promise of 5000 rand seems to be about right for a hit in South Africa. What's the going rate where you live?
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Old 6th March 2014, 10:35 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
You also thought he didn't own his own vehicle.

Do you still think that someone can be bought into murder for a month's salary/less than their actual monthly earnings?

A perfectly valid assumption given the reality here. Yes, I honestly do. It's not as if it's hard to find someone willing to do the job. An afternoon spent making discreet inquiries in some of the more dangerous parts of town or (in this case) a few discussions with taxi operators (who often also deal drugs to supplement their income) should fairly easily turn up someone willing to do the deed.

Originally Posted by Suffolk Skeptic View Post
<snippity snip>
Thank you. I've not followed the case closely enough, nor do I remember enough detail to argue effectively, but I definitely remember at the time from the things in the media he sounded guilty as sin and the PTSD was an obvious con to evade extradition.

Your point about him being more than happy to chat to police, make statements and appear before media is germane. The minute we wanted him back, he hired Max Clifford and all of a sudden came down with a case of the vapours.

Originally Posted by lane99 View Post
The taxi driver did not have any serious criminal record before he met up with Dewani. Although he had had many well-off clients whom he could have ripped off if he was so inclined.

And, yes, the promise of 5000 rand seems to be about right for a hit in South Africa. What's the going rate where you live?
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I think it very likely that Tongo doesn't normally run in those circles, but if/when Dewani approached him, he probably realised he could make a few bucks on the side and just hand the job over to some locals from the township.
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Old 7th March 2014, 12:19 AM   #39
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2 witnesses say he was gay

There have been 2 witnesses come forward about Dewani being gay. Both say he liked S&M. The prostitute says Dewani told him he needed a way out of his marriage. It is said that his family would not accept him being gay and as a widower he would not be pressed to find a wife.

Despite his age he had only had one reported girlfriend before, who he got engaged to quickly but with whom he did not have sex.

Dewani impotent

The idea that a man in this day and age would kill his wife to conceal his sexuality is astonishing I agree. But if you were going to do it, what better place than South Africa? The honeymoon destination he kept as a last minute surprise for Anni.
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Old 7th March 2014, 12:44 AM   #40
Samson
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Originally Posted by Suffolk Skeptic View Post
2 witnesses say he was gay

There have been 2 witnesses come forward about Dewani being gay. Both say he liked S&M. The prostitute says Dewani told him he needed a way out of his marriage. It is said that his family would not accept him being gay and as a widower he would not be pressed to find a wife.

Despite his age he had only had one reported girlfriend before, who he got engaged to quickly but with whom he did not have sex.

Dewani impotent

The idea that a man in this day and age would kill his wife to conceal his sexuality is astonishing I agree. But if you were going to do it, what better place than South Africa? The honeymoon destination he kept as a last minute surprise for Anni.
Don't the alarm bells ring when male prostitutes are taken seriously as witnesses? In the world of male or female prostitutes or drug dealers, truth will be accidental. Murder one is a crazy way to escape a marriage, and I don't believe it, but will do further research with time.
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