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Tags airplane incidents , government conspiracies , Malaysia incidents

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Old 11th March 2014, 09:21 AM   #281
DGM
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
....... and that flight would have been invisible to radar since no radar tracking is reported about such a long glide flight for MH370.
Radar tracking is being mentioned. They think it turned and traveled at least another hour west. This is from the Malaysian military. It's also to an area were some SAR assets were sent.
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:22 AM   #282
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
As you agreed, you have 100% of the burden to answer these questions with your own facts and reasoning.
I didn't agree to that. Is that another of your obfuscated arguments?

I guess you refer to this: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=213

The yes answer is not about burden of proof but about if I would accept that conspiracy theorists would speculate about me lying. They are free to do that. In a free society.

Do you want an Orwellian society where questioning authorities is considered immoral?
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:26 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Radar tracking is being mentioned. They think it turned and traveled at least another hour west. This is from the Malaysian military. It's also to an area were some SAR assets were sent.
But check out what the CNN article says:

"Even with a dual engine failure, a Boeing 777 is capable of gliding about 120 miles from that altitude. This yields a search area roughly the size of Pennsylvania, with few clues within that area where remains of the aircraft might be." -- http://edition.cnn.com/2014/03/10/op...ft-air-france/

If that was the case, then MH370 would have been able to glide for 120 miles without being tracked by radar!
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:26 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I didn't agree to that.
Yes, you did. Until you realized -- too late -- that it doomed your activities here and you tried to backpedal out of it. However you had already given a line of reasoning to support your responsibility.

You have the entire burden to prove your wild accusations. If you cannot to do it, you have the moral obligation to withdraw them.

Act accordingly.
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:32 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I guess you refer to this...
No. I refer to your assertion that you would have no obligation to provide any evidence at all in the face of "crazy accusations." That obviously places the burden entirely on the person making the accusation.

You are making the accusation here. Hence by your line of reasoning you have the entire burden of proof.

Satisfy it, or withdraw the accusation.
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:32 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I asked your justification for continued illogical and immoral conspiracy theorism on this subject.
I disagree with your claim here. Every conspiracy theory that even dares to question whether victims have been faked is immoral according to you. If not, then you have to describe why you believe my particular hypothesis is immoral.
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:34 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You have the entire burden to prove your wild accusations.
No, because people are free to provide evidence for my hypothesis. It's not copyrighted, lol.
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:41 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I disagree with your claim here.
Too bad. That ship sailed yesterday when your argument failed the rhetorical turnabout on both logical and ethical grounds. Too late to pretend that didn't happen.

At this point all we require from you is a reasoned justification for your continued irresponsible and unethical hypothesization.

Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
No, because people are free to provide evidence for my hypothesis. It's not copyrighted, lol.
Irrelevant. You are making the accusation. You conceded yesterday you have sole intellectual responsibility to support it. And you assented yesterday the moral obligation to withdraw it if you cannot support it.

At this point all we require from you is the evidence substantiating your accusation.

Please provide these immediately without further evasion and posturing.
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:46 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post

If that was the case, then MH370 would have been able to glide for 120 miles without being tracked by radar!
Except it was (reportedly) at a FL 29000 for over an hour before they lost contact again. 330 some odd miles SW of where primary radar contact was lost. It wasn't gliding.
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:47 AM   #290
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You are making the accusation.
My conspiracy theory isn't an accusation.

Quote:
You conceded yesterday you have sole intellectual responsibility to support it. And you assented yesterday the moral obligation to withdraw it if you cannot support it.
Really? Where did I do that?
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:48 AM   #291
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Except it was (reportedly) at a FL 29000 for over an hour before they lost contact again. 330 some odd miles SW of where primary radar contact was lost. It wasn't gliding.
So the CNN article is misleading?
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:54 AM   #292
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
So the CNN article is misleading?
No, just not up to date. This is fairly new information that was comfired by the Malaysian military. Civilian contact was lost at 1:30 am, the military tracked it until 2:40 am
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:55 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
My conspiracy theory isn't an accusation.
How can an allegedly hoaxed flight possibly not be an accusation? Are you seriously that out of touch with your own argument?

Quote:
Really? Where did I do that?
Asked and answered just a few minutes ago. Satisfy your obligation immediately, please.
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Old 11th March 2014, 09:58 AM   #294
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What the CNN article meant is that MH370 could glide (without any engine) for 120 miles without being tracked by radar after all contact was lost.

The hoaxers could then easily have carefully chosen a glide path (with engines functioning) to deliberately avoid radar.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:00 AM   #295
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The hoaxers could then easily have carefully chosen a glide path (with engines functioning) to deliberately avoid radar.
How does this not amount to an accusation, Lindman?
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:00 AM   #296
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Asked and answered just a few minutes ago.
Link please. To my original claim.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:02 AM   #297
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
How does this not amount to an accusation, Lindman?
The whole thread is about a hypothesis. To write 'hypothesized hoaxers' instead of just 'hoaxers' is therefore redundant.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:03 AM   #298
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Link please. To my original claim.
Asked and answered. You were questioned yesterday about the ethics of letting stand unfounded accusations. You gave a non-committal answer and resigned the question. I'm sorry you missed the big red letters. I've gone over the line of reasoning again today. I'm sorry you seem not to understand it.

Now I grow weary of your backpedaling and evasion. Satisfy your ethical responsibility and either prove your accusation or withdraw it.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:04 AM   #299
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You gave a non-committal answer and resigned the question.
You mean I didn't answer.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:05 AM   #300
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
The whole thread is about a hypothesis.
An accusation is simply a hypothesis of someone else's wrongdoing, which is exactly what you're doing here.

No word games, Lindman. Substantiate your accusation or withdraw it, immediately if you please.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:09 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
You mean I didn't answer.
No, don't put other words in my mouth. You indeed gave an answer, but the answer did not assert an ethical justification for conspiracism. I pressed you for clarification, and you ignored it and whined about having been "tricked."

In fact, you were merely shown the inherent contradiction in your argument and approach. Now you're frantically trying to obfuscate and weasel your way out of it, which I will not let you do.

Stop evading and either substantiate or withdraw your accusation. You've conceded you have no logical or ethical justification for what you've done here.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:10 AM   #302
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Indeed. I worked on the B-777, one of my first activities with Boeing. Few people appreciate how large that aircraft is. Its engine nacelle is the same diameter as the fuselage of a B-737.
Jay, on that topic, can the 777 even stop on a 5000 foot runway at full thrust reverser? I'm not sure as to its specs as far as minimum runway requirements.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:13 AM   #303
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
An accusation is simply a hypothesis of someone else's wrongdoing, which is exactly what you're doing here.

No word games, Lindman. Substantiate your accusation or withdraw it, immediately if you please.
Your claim is illogical. With your logic, all conspiracy theories are accusations. Tell that to Jim Fetzer and he will correct you. He has changed his conspiracy hypotheses many times. And he repeatedly points out that he will change them again if new information supports that. It's a state of uncertainty.

By nature, conspiracy theories will often have to rely on information that is officially unconfirmed.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:14 AM   #304
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Stop evading and either substantiate or withdraw your accusation.
See my previous post: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...&postcount=312
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:15 AM   #305
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Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
Jay, on that topic, can the 777 even stop on a 5000 foot runway at full thrust reverser? I'm not sure as to its specs as far as minimum runway requirements.
The figure commonly given is about 6,100 ft. on dry pavement, but the actual numbers vary greatly by loadout and conditions. You could probably land a completely empty B-777 at sea level in maybe half that distance.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:18 AM   #306
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Your claim is illogical. With your logic, all conspiracy theories are accusations.
That is correct; they are.

Substantiate your accusation now, or withdraw it now.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:23 AM   #307
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That is correct; they are.

Substantiate your accusation now, or withdraw it now.
I disagree. I will leave the arguments for that for another thread. It's a huge topic in of itself.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:23 AM   #308
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The figure commonly given is about 6,100 ft. on dry pavement, but the actual numbers vary greatly by loadout and conditions. You could probably land a completely empty B-777 at sea level in maybe half that distance.
Yeah, but you'd never get it off the ground again; adding enough fuel to take off and go somewhere meaningful would add enough weight to greatly increase the takeoff roll. But enough of the off-topic, back to the trolling. (And thanks for the info.)
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:26 AM   #309
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I disagree. I will leave the arguments for that for another thread. It's a huge topic in of itself.
No, do not evade. Substantiate your "hoaxed flight" accusation now or withdraw it now. The justification for my request is a matter of your recorded concessions in this thread, so they are neither moot nor debatable.

Act properly.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:28 AM   #310
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Originally Posted by thedopefishlives View Post
Yeah, but you'd never get it off the ground again; adding enough fuel to take off and go somewhere meaningful would add enough weight to greatly increase the takeoff roll. But enough of the off-topic, back to the trolling. (And thanks for the info.)
Correct.

Here at SLC our 12,000 ft runways are just barely long enough to land the B-777. And we have done so. But that's adding in FAR length requirements, so it's a legal limitation and not a practical one. By law an elected landing has to be on a runway that's nearly twice as long as the prescribed landing rollout.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:32 AM   #311
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
What the CNN article meant is that MH370 could glide (without any engine) for 120 miles without being tracked by radar after all contact was lost.

The hoaxers could then easily have carefully chosen a glide path (with engines functioning) to deliberately avoid radar.
Engines running or not has nothing to do with being picked up by primary radar. The article was guessing how far it could have gone if all power was lost from the point where ATC (secondary) radar lost contact.

This does not help you.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:36 AM   #312
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No, do not evade. Substantiate your "hoaxed flight" accusation now or withdraw it now. The justification for my request is a matter of your recorded concessions in this thread, so they are neither moot nor debatable.

Act properly.
Ok, I can give a brief example:

According to the hypothesis, Philip Wood is a cabal member. If someone instead writes: "Philip Wood is a cabal member", without providing the context for the hypothesis, then it can appear as an accusation.

The statement "According to the hypothesis, Philip Wood is a cabal member." is free from accusation.

B.t.w., I even think the 'cabal' is good. So I wonder what point you really are trying to make.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:39 AM   #313
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Let me get this straight. You ignore him because it's fun to watch him when you don't pay him any attention.

That's the idea, is it?
When you take yourself out of it, step back and watch from a distance his pain and desperation really come across.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:40 AM   #314
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Originally Posted by DGM View Post
Engines running or not has nothing to do with being picked up by primary radar. The article was guessing how far it could have gone if all power was lost from the point where ATC (secondary) radar lost contact.

This does not help you.
Yes, that's what I meant. The plane could glide 120 miles after all contact with it had been lost.

And with or without engines makes a difference in how far the plane could glide.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:41 AM   #315
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
Ok, I can give a brief example.
100% weasel words. You are the one making an accusation of a hoax. Substantiate or withdraw it without further attempts at evasion and obfuscation.

Quote:
So I wonder what point you really are trying to make.
That you have no factual basis for your wild accusation, and further a moral obligation to withdraw it if unsubstantiated.

Substantiate or withdraw. Those are your choices.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:42 AM   #316
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
And with or without engines makes a difference in how far the plane could glide.
If the engines are running, it's not gliding.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:43 AM   #317
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post

Substantiate or withdraw. Those are your choices.
You forgot option 3. Troll JREF Forum and receive 300 replies.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:46 AM   #318
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
If the engines are running, it's not gliding.
I was about to edit it to 'glide'. With engines running the plane could 'glide' much longer. To illustrate that it's the same principle as in the CNN article. To call it flying would technically be more correct, but some of the comparison would be lost.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:49 AM   #319
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Originally Posted by Anders Lindman View Post
I was about to edit it to 'glide'. With engines running the plane could 'glide' much longer. To illustrate that it's the same principle as in the CNN article. To call it flying would technically be more correct, but some of the comparison would be lost.
Weasel words. If the engines are off, it's gliding. If the engines are on, it's flying. You don't know what you're talking about.
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Old 11th March 2014, 10:55 AM   #320
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That you have no factual basis for your wild accusation, and further a moral obligation to withdraw it if unsubstantiated.
How about the entire plane still missing. Or the supposed American children who media is silent about. That's so suspicious.

It may look like I'm making an accusation when I write 'supposed American children'. Imagine how the parents would feel if someone accused them of having fake children. Not a pretty picture, but someone has to paint it. Or, at least, we are free to paint it.

Will I apologize if it turns out that the children are real victims? No way! I stand of firm moral ground.
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