Face the facts, when you die you are dead forever

reverebison

Thinker
R
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
150
You say:
When you are dead, you are dead, and you are dead for an eternity. There is no more existence for you. That is it. Lights out you are gone, and nice to know ya.

I say:
The universe is basically the same as when it was a singularity (defined as the condition of being singular). It is one thing. It has expanded greatly into an infinite number of temporary and constantly changing divisions of itself, yet is still the same as ever, one single thing. No matter how much space is consumed in its expansion and no matter how seemingly huge it gets,,,it is still the one thing it was before. Still as connected as it was then. Much of what we call Quantum Weirdness is proof of this connection.
You and I are part of this one thing. What we call consciousness is this one thing, this one energy. Our bodies are temporary forms, but the energy we are made of and what flows through our minds in the form of awareness is not temporary. It is the one energy, and since the one energy is all that really exists, it can be nothing else.
You, John Smith are a temporary form the universe has taken called life. You were born and you will die. But the energy that makes up your body is not temporary. The energy that flows through your mind not either.
John Smith will die and never return, but the energy that flowed through John Smith’s mind will never die, it will just flow through another mind. It can only do this one at a time, so the death of John Smith means the birth of Jane Jones, and the death of Jane Jones means the birth of another life etc… etc… etc… One awareness at a time, each birth completely and utterly new and each death the very last.
You have never been John Smith, it has all been a perfect illusion, all you have ever been or will ever be is the only thing you can be,,,,the one energy. The only time you will ever know this for sure is on your death bed, when you must at last give up everything to the unknown, everything including your false ego must be completely and utterly surrendered.

You say:
That is a load of nonsense, show me your proof. When I see someone dead, I see them rot and smell and eventually disappear into the dirt, therefore I know for sure that when you die you are dead forever. When people are born, they come from their mommies tummies. Babies are brand new, they have never seen the light of day before.

I am an individual who will happen just once. I am not at all important, and my existence in this universe basically means very little or nothing. When I am gone, I am gone forever, I will be forgotten and my role here was basically meaningless.

I believe in what I see. There aint no God and their aint no afterlife of any kind. We are not part of the universe. I am separated from it utterly and completely.
I know that when I die I am dead and gone forever. I don’t mind this reality because I am tough, I am cold and I face the facts.

I say:
That little child with cancer, that child who has only lived 3 years and most of it in the most horrifying fear and pain, will live another life. The next time round will be her turn for joy. In fact that child has already experienced an infinite number of lives, some good, some bad, and many average and she is sentenced to continue this.
You say:
That little child with cancer was born once and will die painfully once and her dreadful experience is all that she will ever know. It is sad to see her suffer, but that is life. It can be cruel and heartless, and oh so completely meaningless, but that is just the way it is.

I say:
You are the universe and if this is true then the universe is full of love and kindness and in your case full of apathy and selfishness as well. You are the universe and if this is true then you statement that the universe is meaningless is also meaningless.
As we discover more about the real universe, as we learn more about the quantum world, we see how strange things really are. And one of the strangest things is how important we are. How important our observations are. For we are not poor little temporary John Doe or Jane Jones, we are actually the universe itself fulfilling an important law,,,existence.
We see that this temporary body is just one chapter in an endless story called existence.

I say:
You are tough, you are cold, you face the hard facts.
And this is really nothing more than a rather thinly veiled attempt at self flattery.
 
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Go through and replace the word "energy" with "ability to do work".

Read it back to yourself and see if it has the same impact you imagined originally.
 
Didn't this thread happen before, and end up in AAH?
 
reverebison said:
I say:
That little child with cancer, that child who has only lived 3 years and most of it in the most horrifying fear and pain, will live another life. The next time round will be her turn for joy. In fact that child has already experienced an infinite number of lives, some good, some bad, and many average and she is sentenced to continue this.
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So this child with cancer will get happiness and joy next time, eh? What did she do to in her previous life to deserve getting punished this time around? Who, if anyone, determines the outcomes of these life cycles"?

I say: I think your OP is complete nonsense. Do you have any evidence at all to support anything you've said?
 
GlennB said:
It got resurrected, in pursuit of a better life.
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Well, you say that.........


..........but I rather think it got replicated, with very minor differences, some of which may (or indeed may not) survive to the next time the thread self-replicates.
 
Babies "come from their mommies [sic] tummies"? I don't think many people over the age of about five would say that, so you might need to work on the dialogue for your imaginary interlocutor (or consult a biology textbook).
 
If this thread is moved to AAH, it will certainly be due in large part to the fire hazard caused by the huge amount of straw in the OP.

Reverebison, please don't put words in the mouths of others. Instead of attempting to tell them what they think, why don't you ask them. And don't extrapolate positions that are not held from positions that are held. For example, just because someone thinks that consciousness is an emergent property of the arrangement of matter in a brain, and that this emergent property is temporary, don't assume that this person sees no importance to the existence of consciousness.

When my consciousness ceases to function, I will be gone forever. But I will not be forgotten for a long time, and even after I am forgotten, I can still have made a difference in the chain of life of which I am delighted to be a part. I am alive today because of someone who lived ten thousand years ago. That person is lost to history. His name, his personality, his achievements, all lost to us in the present. Yet because he existed, there are people who exist today and experience life as well. And even if we don't leave offspring, we still get to live life and interact with the other lives around us.

So why isn't that enough? Why do you need to think that you'll live forever in some capacity in order for existence to have any meaning or beauty?
 
reverebison said:
I say:
That little child with cancer, that child who has only lived 3 years and most of it in the most horrifying fear and pain, will live another life. The next time round will be her turn for joy. In fact that child has already experienced an infinite number of lives, some good, some bad, and many average and she is sentenced to continue this.
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I say, I ask, why the child had to suffer so goddamned much in the first place?

You say you know this stuff, so, why?

Show your work.
 
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We may all be made of one stuff how is this comfort when entropy inevitably wins and consciousness ends. You have provided no argument for that.

I don't say where is the proof: I say back to the drawing board.
 
Reverebison, could you please go back and summarize your point in a couple of concise sentences? I have this slight allergy towards walls of text and run on sentences, you see.
 
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I say:
when i die, it will probably be due to some horrible accident or vicious predator attack deep in the wilderness (at least, this is my preferred method of death). Therefore, my 'existence' will live on in the emodiment of the bears and slime molds that feast upon my remains. But I hope the bear is a grizzly, cause grizzly bears are so much cooler than black bears. And I hope the slime mold is an attractive one, cause some molds are prettier than others...:)
 
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Belz... said:
These two sentences are at odds.
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Yes.

If you look closer at the "I say" and "you say" markers, the first sentence is something that Reverebison believes and the second is something Reverebison believes that skeptics believe.

Reverebison, feel free to use indent tags, or color tags, or font tags to make it easier to distinguish between your thoughts and the thoughts that you ascribe to others.
 
reverebison said:
The energy that flows through your mind not either.
John Smith will die and never return, but the energy that flowed through John Smith’s mind will never die, it will just flow through another mind. It can only do this one at a time, so the death of John Smith means the birth of Jane Jones, and the death of Jane Jones means the birth of another life etc… etc… etc… One awareness at a time, each birth completely and utterly new and each death the very last.
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part 1.

So what?

If the apparent consciousness of John Smith ends, but the energy of John Smith continues into another human, what difference does that make? The new human will remember none of John Smith's life or experiences. After John Smith's physical death, there is nothing that you or the universe can do to recreate John Smith the way he was before he died. That information is lost forever. His energy continues but that energy is in a completely new form - a form that will create its own experiences and memories.

No one can look at Jane Jones and say "The energy that is currently described as Jane Jones was once the energy that was known as John Smith and not the energy that was known as Montague Hepplewhite-Fortescue III." Not even Jane Jones, herself, can identify the name of her energy-ancestors. Therefore, I must ask again: even if all that is true, so what?

part 2.

You appear to take delight in the knowledge that energy is not destroyed and we will not die (in the conventional sense).

Why is it so important to you to share that information here? Why do you feel compelled to convince us of this precept? Why do you fight so hard to get us to believe it?
 
Speak for yourself. I never said any of that.

You could, however, work that dialogue up into a nice play about two friends who like to discuss mortality. Then anyone can say whatever you want them to, in exactly the way you direct them to, and the audience can draw their own conclusions based on the evidence presented eloquent nature of the argumentation.

And you will feel better for having gotten that load off your chest.
 
reverebison said:
When I see someone dead, I see them rot and smell and eventually disappear into the dirt, therefore I know for sure that when you die you are dead forever.
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Ignoring the rest of the gross errors and general insults in your post, is this what you actually think the case for effectively ceasing to exist on death is?
 
I was born with asthma, a personality and learning disorder and spinal scholiosis. I'd love to die and be reborn in a better situation but as appealing as that sounds it isn't going to happen.

I've been with beautiful women, ate great food and gone places and done things many others never had a chance to do.

its been good and its been bad. When my time comes I'll hate it but perhaps the prospect of no more anxiety, underemployment, and no more asthma will ease my mind a bit when I'm on the verge of death.
 
OP is rather verbose. So, he has a belief system that requires no evidence, just belief in whatever thought pops into mind. Meh.
 
It must be comforting to think your consciousness will live on, like wrapping yourself in a warm blanket. I wish I could convince myself to believe it.
 
s4zando said:
Speak for yourself. I never said any of that.

You could, however, work that dialogue up into a nice play about two friends who like to discuss mortality. Then anyone can say whatever you want them to, in exactly the way you direct them to, and the audience can draw their own conclusions based on the evidence presented eloquent nature of the argumentation.

And you will feel better for having gotten that load off your chest.
Click to expand...

The
button is your friend. Use it.
Click to expand...
 
reverebison said:
You say:
When you are dead, you are dead, and you are dead for an eternity. There is no more existence for you. That is it. Lights out you are gone, and nice to know ya.

I say:
The universe is basically the same as when it was a singularity (defined as the condition of being singular). It is one thing. It has expanded greatly into an infinite number of temporary and constantly changing divisions of itself, yet is still the same as ever, one single thing. No matter how much space is consumed in its expansion and no matter how seemingly huge it gets,,,it is still the one thing it was before. Still as connected as it was then. Much of what we call Quantum Weirdness is proof of this connection.
You and I are part of this one thing. What we call consciousness is this one thing, this one energy. Our bodies are temporary forms, but the energy we are made of and what flows through our minds in the form of awareness is not temporary. It is the one energy, and since the one energy is all that really exists, it can be nothing else.
You, John Smith are a temporary form the universe has taken called life. You were born and you will die. But the energy that makes up your body is not temporary. The energy that flows through your mind not either.
John Smith will die and never return, but the energy that flowed through John Smith’s mind will never die, it will just flow through another mind. It can only do this one at a time, so the death of John Smith means the birth of Jane Jones, and the death of Jane Jones means the birth of another life etc… etc… etc… One awareness at a time, each birth completely and utterly new and each death the very last.
You have never been John Smith, it has all been a perfect illusion, all you have ever been or will ever be is the only thing you can be,,,,the one energy. The only time you will ever know this for sure is on your death bed, when you must at last give up everything to the unknown, everything including your false ego must be completely and utterly surrendered.

You say:
That is a load of nonsense, show me your proof. When I see someone dead, I see them rot and smell and eventually disappear into the dirt, therefore I know for sure that when you die you are dead forever. When people are born, they come from their mommies tummies. Babies are brand new, they have never seen the light of day before.

I am an individual who will happen just once. I am not at all important, and my existence in this universe basically means very little or nothing. When I am gone, I am gone forever, I will be forgotten and my role here was basically meaningless.

I believe in what I see. There aint no God and their aint no afterlife of any kind. We are not part of the universe. I am separated from it utterly and completely.
I know that when I die I am dead and gone forever. I don’t mind this reality because I am tough, I am cold and I face the facts.

I say:
That little child with cancer, that child who has only lived 3 years and most of it in the most horrifying fear and pain, will live another life. The next time round will be her turn for joy. In fact that child has already experienced an infinite number of lives, some good, some bad, and many average and she is sentenced to continue this.
You say:
That little child with cancer was born once and will die painfully once and her dreadful experience is all that she will ever know. It is sad to see her suffer, but that is life. It can be cruel and heartless, and oh so completely meaningless, but that is just the way it is.

I say:
You are the universe and if this is true then the universe is full of love and kindness and in your case full of apathy and selfishness as well. You are the universe and if this is true then you statement that the universe is meaningless is also meaningless.
As we discover more about the real universe, as we learn more about the quantum world, we see how strange things really are. And one of the strangest things is how important we are. How important our observations are. For we are not poor little temporary John Doe or Jane Jones, we are actually the universe itself fulfilling an important law,,,existence.
We see that this temporary body is just one chapter in an endless story called existence.

I say:
You are tough, you are cold, you face the hard facts.
And this is really nothing more than a rather thinly veiled attempt at self flattery.
Click to expand...

This is why we should eat our dead so we can recapture that energy.
 
I'm not sure I have anything useful to add, so I'll just go with some lyrics.

Sweetest of all lies,
One of everlasting life.
No one wants to die,
But we do, so we hide.
What you fail to realize
Is there's no need to fear
You live on in hearts and minds
Of those who hold you dear who are right here
(Right here)
-Machinae Supremacy "I Know the Reaper"

I played this song until it was burned into my mind when my grandfather died.
 
I say:
When I die, I go in the ground. Worms eventually find a way in and will feast on my remains. Those worms will go poop in the soil. A tree, flower, or other plant life will take the nutrients from worm poop. The plant will produce seeds which birds eat, then poop them out. The seeds in the poop end up somewhere else and the life cycle starts all over again.

It's the only immortality I will accept. There is nothing cold or hard about it. It is actually a beautiful thing contributing to future generations of life.
 
Chernobyl X1 said:
I say:
When I die, I go in the ground. Worms eventually find a way in and will feast on my remains. Those worms will go poop in the soil. A tree, flower, or other plant life will take the nutrients from worm poop. The plant will produce seeds which birds eat, then poop them out. The seeds in the poop end up somewhere else and the life cycle starts all over again.

It's the only immortality I will accept. There is nothing cold or hard about it. It is actually a beautiful thing contributing to future generations of life.
Click to expand...

^^^^^

This. Well said.

Norm
 
reverebison said:
I say:
That little child with cancer, that child who has only lived 3 years and most of it in the most horrifying fear and pain, will live another life. The next time round will be her turn for joy. In fact that child has already experienced an infinite number of lives, some good, some bad, and many average and she is sentenced to continue this.
Click to expand...

What an odd thing to think, much less say, or type!
 
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