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Old 26th April 2014, 12:01 PM   #41
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How much did it cost to watch someone pretend to be inhabited by a spirit?
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Old 26th April 2014, 12:06 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world. Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation. Which is to choose our own path through the world and by doing so invoke karma that is designed to teach us to spiritually evolve. If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all. But in this world we are tried and tested by experience that leads us gradually up the path of evolution over many incarnations.

I am unlikely to change my mind about all this as finding it out was the work of years, and I have had much subjective evidence that we do survive death, in the form of many evidential messages from the spirit world given to me by mediums. But telling you of my experiences is just anecdotal, and although it gives me belief it proves nothing to you. You would have to spend years in a spiritualist church to get such evidence, and even then you might not. The spirit world do not give away their secrets to the idly curious, only to those that they think will use the knowledge in a positive way.
What?

'If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all.'

If we are there, having the choice to not incarnate, why would we need proof. We would be there and that would be the proof. Why can't we spiritually evolve in the spirit world? Also, now you've told me the spirit world exists, what's to stop me believing you? If I believe you I'm in the same position as someone who demanded and received proof. Now I can't evolve because knowing prevents me evolving. In fact since you have this knowledge you can't evolve either.

What I highlighted just seems like a jumble of enigmatic sentences that don't mean anything.
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Old 26th April 2014, 12:24 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
What?

'If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all.'

If we are there, having the choice to not incarnate, why would we need proof. We would be there and that would be the proof. Why can't we spiritually evolve in the spirit world? Also, now you've told me the spirit world exists, what's to stop me believing you? If I believe you I'm in the same position as someone who demanded and received proof. Now I can't evolve because knowing prevents me evolving. In fact since you have this knowledge you can't evolve either.

What I highlighted just seems like a jumble of enigmatic sentences that don't mean anything.
We cannot spiritually evolve in the spirit world as much as we can in a physical body. For one thing the spirit body has no sexuality, and we also do not feel emotions like we do in the flesh. Also there are no great challenges or pressures put upon us as immortal spirits.
We evolve through the struggles of life, and eventually, after countless incarnations we achieve a state of grace which makes further incarnations pointless. At that time we remember all our past lives in perfect clarity, and then we go on to evolve further as one of the immortals.
Some spirit teachers have said we eventually loose our individuality and merge back into the God head.
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Old 26th April 2014, 12:32 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Black Hole Box View Post
How much did it cost to watch someone pretend to be inhabited by a spirit?
There is very little money to be made in spiritualism, and most mediums give their time freely to churches up and down the country every week. They only get paid travelling expenses, and the rest of the money put in the collection plate goes to the upkeep of the church. Usually spiritualist churches are struggling to keep the doors open because they do not get very much on the collection plate.
The spiritualist association does make a small charge for the attendance of lectures, but their overheads are high, and they make very little money.
I know there are fakes out there that charge for private sittings but the core of the mediums in the spiritualist movement do their work for the love of it.
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Old 26th April 2014, 12:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I have had much subjective evidence that we do survive death, in the form of many evidential messages from the spirit world given to me by mediums. But telling you of my experiences is just anecdotal, and although it gives me belief it proves nothing to you.
How did you eliminate cold reading, warm reading, hot reading, confirmation bias, the Forer Effect, intelligent guesswork, lucky guesswork and sheer coincidence - all the reasons why anecdotal evidence is such a very very unreliable basis on which to base conclusions about the nature of reality? Unless you did so, it proves nothing to you either (at least it shouldn't).
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Old 26th April 2014, 12:51 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
How did you eliminate cold reading, warm reading, hot reading, confirmation bias, the Forer Effect, intelligent guesswork, lucky guesswork and sheer coincidence - all the reasons why anecdotal evidence is such a very very unreliable basis on which to base conclusions about the nature of reality? Unless you did so, it proves nothing to you either (at least it shouldn't).
In the early days of attending spiritualist church services I learned that if a medium comes to you with a message you just answer yes or no to any questions. I also adopted a toneless voice, so as not to give cold readers any clues. Never the less I was once told I had a brother that died in the war as a baby, and I was even told his name. The medium was from out of town and I had never seen her before. My mother was not a spiritualist and she had never been to the church. Nor had she ever told me about the baby.
Everything the medium said to me I refuted, and at the end she looked crest fallen, and she said well ask your mother about it. So I went home and my mother was at the kitchen sink, like all good mothers, I asked her if she had a baby that died in the war, and she looked up with a shocked look on her face and said "Yes". So I told her I had just had a message from him and he had grown up in the spirit world, and he wanted to be remembered to her.
My mother shrugged her shoulders and went back to the washing up. We did not speak about it again for years.
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Old 26th April 2014, 12:56 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We cannot spiritually evolve in the spirit world as much as we can in a physical body. For one thing the spirit body has no sexuality, and we also do not feel emotions like we do in the flesh. Also there are no great challenges or pressures put upon us as immortal spirits.
We evolve through the struggles of life, and eventually, after countless incarnations we achieve a state of grace which makes further incarnations pointless. At that time we remember all our past lives in perfect clarity, and then we go on to evolve further as one of the immortals.
Some spirit teachers have said we eventually loose our individuality and merge back into the God head.
That sounds good. I would like to evolve into an immortal. So much that rock solid proof of the spirit world would not stop me trying. Can I have the proof if I promise not to tell anyone else?

Alternatively, can I waive the possibility of spiritual evolution in return for the knowledge that would prevent me attaining immortality?
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Old 26th April 2014, 12:56 PM   #48
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How did you eliminate warm reading, hot reading, confirmation bias, the Forer Effect, intelligent guesswork, lucky guesswork and sheer coincidence as the explanation of this anecdote?
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Old 26th April 2014, 01:06 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
That sounds good. I would like to evolve into an immortal. So much that rock solid proof of the spirit world would not stop me trying. Can I have the proof if I promise not to tell anyone else?

Alternatively, can I waive the possibility of spiritual evolution in return for the knowledge that would prevent me attaining immortality?
The theory is that we start out as immortal spirits that are breathed out of God in huge batches, or spiritual families.These untried and untested spirits lack self knowlege and personal experience so the begin the long cycle of countless incarnations which involves actions and reactions, or karma.
We cannot get off this merry go round even if we want to and there is no death of the spirit. We are immortal either in or between incarnations, and we have no choice but to complete our journey.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 26th April 2014, 01:18 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
How did you eliminate warm reading, hot reading, confirmation bias, the Forer Effect, intelligent guesswork, lucky guesswork and sheer coincidence as the explanation of this anecdote?
That's too clever for me, I just had many evidential messages over a period of years, that gradually convinced me that the most likely explanation for the accuracy of the messages I was getting was that mediums were doing what they said they were doing, and talking to the spirits of the departed.

I went to many different churches, up and down the length of England and had messages from many different mediums who I had never seen before, so they did not know my details. But I still got evidential messages from both my grandparents. Who told the medium things the medium could not have known.

I was not convinced by one message, but by hundreds over years.

In any case I could feel psychic energy myself.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 26th April 2014, 01:23 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The theory is that we start out as immortal spirits that are breathed out of God in huge batches, or spiritual families.These untried and untested spirits lack self knowlege and personal experience so the begin the long cycle of countless incarnations which involves actions and reactions, or karma.
We cannot get off this merry go round even if we want to and there is no death of the spirit. We are immortal either in or between incarnations, and we have no choice but to complete our journey.
OK but in that case there doesn't need to be any rule that stops us knowing about the afterlife, or spirit world, as you said before.
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Old 26th April 2014, 01:27 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
That's too clever for me, I just had many evidential messages over a period of years, that gradually convinced me that the most likely explanation for the accuracy of the messages I was getting was that mediums were doing what they said they were doing, and talking to the spirits of the departed.
Unfortunately we all have cognitive biases which can cause us to inadvertently fool ourselves into believing things which aren't true. That's why the scientific method was invented - to carefully and methodically eliminate the effect of such biases. When this is done with readings like the ones you describe (mediums, psychics, astrology, tarot cards etc) these cognitive biases invariably turn out to be the explanation of the perceived accuracy. They are therefore the most likely cause of your subjective experiences too.
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Old 26th April 2014, 01:40 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My source is that I attended many trance lectures by several mediums at the spiritualist association in London for several years during the 1970's.

Two of the mediums I listened to at the spiritualist association were Ivy Northage and Ursula Roberts. I also went to White Eagle lodge and heard Grace Cook give trance lectures. I also attended an art class by Gladys Mayer, a student of Rudolph Steiner.

I believe all these people are now dead, but information about them all can be found on the Internet together with some of their teachings.

PS. Trance lectures are where a medium is purportedly taken in trance by a discarnate spirit who then speaks through the mediums mouth.
Ah. Got it.

"Seances".
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Old 26th April 2014, 01:45 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world.

...and yet, somehow, you found it out...

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation. Which is to choose our own path through the world and by doing so invoke karma that is designed to teach us to spiritually evolve. If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all. But in this world we are tried and tested by experience that leads us gradually up the path of evolution over many incarnations.
There are many words in this you are not using in the way that people who understand words use them.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I am unlikely to change my mind about all this as finding it out was the work of years, and I have had much subjective evidence that we do survive death, in the form of many evidential messages from the spirit world given to me by mediums.
Then why are you here?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
But telling you of my experiences is just anecdotal, and although it gives me belief it proves nothing to you. You would have to spend years in a spiritualist church to get such evidence, and even then you might not. The spirit world do not give away their secrets to the idly curious, only to those that they think will use the knowledge in a positive way.
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Old 26th April 2014, 04:04 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
You would have to spend years in a spiritualist church to get such evidence, and even then you might not.
But actually that's not really necessary when positive results from simple tests will be evidence enough. For example lets say a medium you believe in does written readings for 10 believers like yourself. The readings would consist of things that have convinced you in the past, things about yourself and those you love that the medium couldn't possibly know unless they had a real ability. If you read all 10 readings afterwards could you pick yours from the 10? Could just 5 of your 9 friends do likewise? Because do that a few times with some simple controls in place and that's all it would take to convince a lot of people. Is that really so much to ask?

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do not give away their secrets to the idly curious, only to those that they think will use the knowledge in a positive way.
I dont expect any secrets to be given away. I'm just looking for a simple, credible demonstration that the abilities are real. It would then be far from idle curiosity, in fact I think it would change the world profoundly.
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Old 26th April 2014, 04:12 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by thenigotoffthebus View Post
I'm just looking for a simple, credible demonstration that the abilities are real. It would then be far from idle curiosity, in fact I think it would change the world profoundly.
Yes.

And earn someone a million dollars.

But Scorpion's posts have been full of special pleading, so I'll go out on a limb and predict more of the same.

Let's see if I'm prescient!
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Old 26th April 2014, 06:05 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spirit world do not want or intend to give absolute proof of their existence to the people of this world. Because that would defeat the very object of incarnation. Which is to choose our own path through the world and by doing so invoke karma that is designed to teach us to spiritually evolve. If we had absolute proof of the existence of the spirit world we might as well stay there and not incarnate at all. But in this world we are tried and tested by experience that leads us gradually up the path of evolution over many incarnations.

I am unlikely to change my mind about all this as finding it out was the work of years, and I have had much subjective evidence that we do survive death, in the form of many evidential messages from the spirit world given to me by mediums. But telling you of my experiences is just anecdotal, and although it gives me belief it proves nothing to you. You would have to spend years in a spiritualist church to get such evidence, and even then you might not. The spirit world do not give away their secrets to the idly curious, only to those that they think will use the knowledge in a positive way.
Then your trance readers were lying to you about their knowledge of the spirit world.


IOW only true believers need apply.
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Old 26th April 2014, 06:06 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
My conclusions were that some mediums are genuine, and they do not just do cold reading, as James Randi says.

Then clearly some mediums are not genuine. If I were to take an interest in spiritualism how would I ascertain which mediums/spirit guides are genuine and which are fraudulent? With all your experience you must encounter this issue on a regular basis. So how do you handle it?


Quote:
They do tell you facts and names, and details that it would be difficult for them to know unless they are doing what they say they are doing. Which is talking to the spirits of the departed.
Again, how can you be sure of this?


Quote:
I conclude that most people here have little or no experience of psychics, and they write them off because of a preconception that they must all be fakes.
You're right. But for the wrong reasons. Until you can show us how to differentiate genuine from fraudulent; we have nothing to discuss.


Quote:
Or it would entirely change the scientific paradigm.
What paradigm? Science has nothing to say on the subject of the paranormal.
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Old 26th April 2014, 06:09 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
We cannot spiritually evolve in the spirit world as much as we can in a physical body. For one thing the spirit body has no sexuality, and we also do not feel emotions like we do in the flesh. Also there are no great challenges or pressures put upon us as immortal spirits.
We evolve through the struggles of life, and eventually, after countless incarnations we achieve a state of grace which makes further incarnations pointless. At that time we remember all our past lives in perfect clarity, and then we go on to evolve further as one of the immortals.
Some spirit teachers have said we eventually loose our individuality and merge back into the God head.
Then what was the point of the whole thing?
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Old 26th April 2014, 06:14 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
That's too clever for me, I just had many evidential messages over a period of years, that gradually convinced me that the most likely explanation for the accuracy of the messages I was getting was that mediums were doing what they said they were doing, and talking to the spirits of the departed.

I went to many different churches, up and down the length of England and had messages from many different mediums who I had never seen before, so they did not know my details. But I still got evidential messages from both my grandparents. Who told the medium things the medium could not have known.

I was not convinced by one message, but by hundreds over years.

In any case I could feel psychic energy myself.
They might have never seen you but I bet they saw each other.

Did any of the messages ever give you any info worth having like "the lotto numbers for tomorrow are xxxxxxxxx?"
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Old 26th April 2014, 06:45 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Myron Proudfoot View Post
I don't believe in reincarnation, but I did in a past life...
I now believe in solipsism after being persuaded by other JREF members.
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Old 26th April 2014, 06:58 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
I now believe in solipsism after being persuaded by other JREF members.
Purely by happenstance, I have come to believe in determinism. Which means that I feel as if I have to believe in free will.
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Old 26th April 2014, 07:21 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by George View Post
Then clearly some mediums are not genuine. If I were to take an interest in spiritualism how would I ascertain which mediums/spirit guides are genuine and which are fraudulent? With all your experience you must encounter this issue on a regular basis. So how do you handle it?...
.
ISTR Randi's exposures of fraud to the gullible just has them say "Oh, he/she was cheating during the test, but when channeling Aunt Ida, it's like she was there!"
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Old 26th April 2014, 10:39 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by George View Post
Then clearly some mediums are not genuine. If I were to take an interest in spiritualism how would I ascertain which mediums/spirit guides are genuine and which are fraudulent? With all your experience you must encounter this issue on a regular basis. So how do you handle it?
The spiritualist association tend to police themselves, as the founders are genuinely psychic and they do not let fake mediums operate on their premises. Also many people in the spiritualist movement and the organizers of spiritualist churches are genuinely psychic, so they would not tolerate a fake medium at their church for very long. Besides as I have said there is virtually no money in it for the mediums who rotate around the spiritualist churches. They do it for love of the work, and as a service to others.

Fake mediums tend to be the ones who set themselves up independently of spiritualist churches, and they charge substantial fees for a private sitting.

Having said that you do not go to a spiritualist church and swallow everything a medium says to you hook line and sinker. You apply reasoning to what you are told, and if it does not make sense to you, reject it.

In spiritualist church services the medium does not give everyone a message and you might have to attend several services before getting a personal message. For one thing if you just go to a church expecting a message there may not be any of your relatives in the spirit world that even know you are there. But regular attendance will bear fruit, as spirits of the departed will start to come and try to get the medium to speak to you for them.
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Old 26th April 2014, 10:54 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
They might have never seen you but I bet they saw each other.

Did any of the messages ever give you any info worth having like "the lotto numbers for tomorrow are xxxxxxxxx?"
I was given a five number lottery win by telepathy from the spirit world in 1998. They gave me the numbers a few days before the draw. I won just enough money to buy a good computer, and to pay off my credit card. But no more than I needed. Nor have the spirit world ever given me another win since then. Because it would be bad karma to cheat the lottery just to get rich. But I know they did it on that occasion because they wanted me to have a computer to write this kind of thing. Among other things it also shows that some spirits can see into the future.
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Old 26th April 2014, 10:56 PM   #66
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Customers of those fake mediums report subjective experiences just as convincing as yours. So do customers of astrologers, tarot card readers etc. The fake psychics, the astrologers and the tarot card readers are often as sincerely convinced of their own genuineness as the mediums of your church.

The only way to distinguish a genuine medium/psychic/astrologer/tarot card reader from someone who is inadvertently fooling themselves is to see if they can produce results significantly better than chance when all the ways in which they can fool themselves are being carefully excluded.
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Old 26th April 2014, 11:17 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
.......... you do not go to a spiritualist church and swallow everything a medium says to you hook line and sinker. You apply reasoning to what you are told.........
You should have started and finished with this, the only comment on the subject which comes close to making sense.
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Old 27th April 2014, 12:39 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spiritualist association tend to police themselves, as the founders are genuinely psychic and they do not let fake mediums operate on their premises. Also many people in the spiritualist movement and the organizers of spiritualist churches are genuinely psychic, so they would not tolerate a fake medium at their church for very long. Besides as I have said there is virtually no money in it for the mediums who rotate around the spiritualist churches. They do it for love of the work, and as a service to others.

Fake mediums tend to be the ones who set themselves up independently of spiritualist churches, and they charge substantial fees for a private sitting.

Having said that you do not go to a spiritualist church and swallow everything a medium says to you hook line and sinker. You apply reasoning to what you are told, and if it does not make sense to you, reject it.

In spiritualist church services the medium does not give everyone a message and you might have to attend several services before getting a personal message. For one thing if you just go to a church expecting a message there may not be any of your relatives in the spirit world that even know you are there. But regular attendance will bear fruit, as spirits of the departed will start to come and try to get the medium to speak to you for them.
I am trying to take you at your word. If there are genuine mediums actually channeling the dead then is this not proof of the afterlife/spirit world that you said we were not allowed to know about because it would prevent us (don't understand how) continuing our path of spiritual improvement through our reincarnations?
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Old 27th April 2014, 05:17 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spiritualist association tend to police themselves, as the founders are genuinely psychic and they do not let fake mediums operate on their premises. Also many people in the spiritualist movement and the organizers of spiritualist churches are genuinely psychic, so they would not tolerate a fake medium at their church for very long. Besides as I have said there is virtually no money in it for the mediums who rotate around the spiritualist churches. They do it for love of the work, and as a service to others.

Fake mediums tend to be the ones who set themselves up independently of spiritualist churches, and they charge substantial fees for a private sitting.

Having said that you do not go to a spiritualist church and swallow everything a medium says to you hook line and sinker. You apply reasoning to what you are told, and if it does not make sense to you, reject it.

In spiritualist church services the medium does not give everyone a message and you might have to attend several services before getting a personal message. For one thing if you just go to a church expecting a message there may not be any of your relatives in the spirit world that even know you are there. But regular attendance will bear fruit, as spirits of the departed will start to come and try to get the medium to speak to you for them.
There are so many weasel words and escape hatches for "psychics" built into that last paragraph that it's almost not worth responding to- "the medium does not give everyone a message," "you might have to attend several services," "there may not be any of your relatives in the spirit world that even know you are there," "spirits...will try to get the medium to speak." But here's a question- it's easy to say definitively that there are "fake" vs "genuine" psychics without actually naming names for either one; so who are the real ones? Surely if they have messages worth delivering, and they're sincere and not in it for the money, they won't mind you telling folks their names.
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:20 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by tsig View Post
Here's a pound of flesh, will that do or will you insist on a full auto-de-fe?
Sorry, we couldn't get one, we'll have to make do with a semi-auto-da-fe.
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:25 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The spiritualist association tend to police themselves, as the founders are genuinely psychic and they do not let fake mediums operate on their premises.
Sounds like the Bigfoot Field Researcher's Organization, working hard to expose those bigfoot hoaxers all the while promoting the real evidence. Meanwhile, there's no such thing as bigfoot.

Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
In spiritualist church services the medium does not give everyone a message and you might have to attend several services before getting a personal message.
Uh huh, and each time you attend here's what happens: You invest more financially or at least via your time in the drivel, and it becomes harder to admit that you've been taken for a fool. So you double-down on your belief to rationalize your investment. All the while, people there are getting to know you - whether you realize it or not - and that information filters to the so-called psychic who waits for an appropriate time to spring the trap that hooks you for life.

Good heavens, the things someone could learn about me from Facebook! Before social media, imagine someone noticing me and asking questions about me that could lead them to some loose-lipped friend of my parents. A good conversationalist can learn an enormous amount of someone's backstory through casual chats with key people. Then when the information is revealed to the victim it seems remarkably compelling.

You've been had. It's a harsh reality, but it's true.
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:30 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
I was given a five number lottery win by telepathy from the spirit world in 1998. They gave me the numbers a few days before the draw. I won just enough money to buy a good computer, and to pay off my credit card. But no more than I needed. Nor have the spirit world ever given me another win since then. Because it would be bad karma to cheat the lottery just to get rich. But I know they did it on that occasion because they wanted me to have a computer to write this kind of thing. Among other things it also shows that some spirits can see into the future.
Waiting to see what tsig might have to say.
.
Scorpion - why did you say ''cheat'' the lottery. Where does any cheat part enter the picture, by you playing?
How long did it take you to rationalize the spirit world doesnt want you to get more money from the lottery? Did you one day come to that realization and quit playing the lottery? If not, why not...if you believed they really didnt want you to have more?
Why wouldnt you play and figure that the spirit world would like you to have more money so you can give it to your church or poor people?
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:35 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
The laws of physics are not incompatible with the possible existence of higher undetectable realms.
If those realms are undetectable, then you certainly can't get any information from them.

If those realms are detectable, then I'm sorry to tell you that they are indeed excluded by physics.

Quote:
The spirit world says the higher worlds are vibrating at a far higher rate than physical atoms, and the realms inter-penetrate. So they can exist in the same place without being perceptible by any other means than psychic development. Using the senses of the astral and mental bodies to see into higher dimensions. Using the chakras in the etheric body as channels.
Either these higher worlds are detectable, in which case we know they don't exist (because they would show up, and they don't), or they're not detectable, in which case you're not in contact with them and they don't exist.

You want to have it both ways. Reality doesn't allow that.
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:37 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by anglolawyer View Post
I am trying to take you at your word. If there are genuine mediums actually channeling the dead then is this not proof of the afterlife/spirit world that you said we were not allowed to know about because it would prevent us (don't understand how) continuing our path of spiritual improvement through our reincarnations?
Its only subjective proof, and not scientific proof. The spirit world do not participate in scientific experiments that would change the entire world. But they are allowed to comfort their relatives on earth and to give them uplifting messages. Mediums that attempt to harness psychic powers to gain worldly recognition are normally dissapointed that the spirit world does not help them.

Never the less there are a lot of psychic people who know the truth for a certainty. I actually sat in a developing circle myself for a time, but I decided being psychic was not for me.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:43 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
... In any case I could feel psychic energy myself.
Coo! what does psychic energy feel like?

How does one know that something one feels is psychic energy?
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:47 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Iamme View Post
Waiting to see what tsig might have to say.
.
Scorpion - why did you say ''cheat'' the lottery. Where does any cheat part enter the picture, by you playing?
How long did it take you to rationalize the spirit world doesnt want you to get more money from the lottery? Did you one day come to that realization and quit playing the lottery? If not, why not...if you believed they really didnt want you to have more?
Why wouldnt you play and figure that the spirit world would like you to have more money so you can give it to your church or poor people?
Using the occult to gain worldy weath is cheating the system big time. It is taking away money from the people that would have won it by abusing psychic powers. The spirit world does not normally do this, so they must have decided that buying me a computer was justifiable, so they influenced me when I picked the numbers. I felt energy flow through me when I was picking the numbers, and I picked the ones where the energy was strongest. A voice told me I had won the lottery one hour before the draw. Naturally I have wished they would give me a big win ever since but they never have.
I do not need any money now so the only reason they might give me a big win would be to give the money to charities, but they obviously don't want to do that, or where would it end. I could win the lottery every week.
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Even in the valley of the shadow of death two and two do not make six.
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:51 AM   #77
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The system behind the Spirit world must be arcane and complex. All those rules of what a spirit can and can't do. All the balancing and tallying of Karma, it must take vast etheric computing devices.

Imagine the sheer chaos at the Ports of Life and Death! The passports, the expiry papers. Who fixes the problems, like when two spirits return into a single body? Who catches the spiritual terrorists who go about telling secrets to silly humans, thus fritzing their karma forever?

Open minds want to know!
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:52 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Its only subjective proof, and not scientific proof. The spirit world do not participate in scientific experiments that would change the entire world.
What about a simple scientific experiment which would enable you personally to verify that your perception that the messages you and the other members of your church are being given are more accurate than would be expected by chance is not an artefact of the cognitive biases that all human beings have? Because without such verification that remains the most likely explanation of your "subjective proof".
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:54 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Its only subjective proof, and not scientific proof. The spirit world do not participate in scientific experiments that would change the entire world. But they are allowed to comfort their relatives on earth and to give them uplifting messages. Mediums that attempt to harness psychic powers to gain worldly recognition are normally dissapointed that the spirit world does not help them.

Never the less there are a lot of psychic people who know the truth for a certainty. I actually sat in a developing circle myself for a time, but I decided being psychic was not for me.
OK I get it now. Thank you.
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Old 27th April 2014, 06:54 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Scorpion View Post
Using the occult to gain worldy weath is cheating the system big time. It is taking away money from the people that would have won it by abusing psychic powers. The spirit world does not normally do this, so they must have decided that buying me a computer was justifiable, so they influenced me when I picked the numbers. I felt energy flow through me when I was picking the numbers, and I picked the ones where the energy was strongest. A voice told me I had won the lottery one hour before the draw. Naturally I have wished they would give me a big win ever since but they never have.
I do not need any money now so the only reason they might give me a big win would be to give the money to charities, but they obviously don't want to do that, or where would it end. I could win the lottery every week.
That's a quite spectacular amount of special pleading to explain why something that could not possibly happen, does not, in fact, happen.

It's like a gallon jug of Ockham's Special Hair Tonic.
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