Split Thread: Scorpion's Spiritualism

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

The long run is a very long run. It may be a million years.

Irrelevant. If I can't know what prior sin I'm being asked to atone for by being persuaded to act against what is objectively good judgment in the here and now, it might as well be forever because that system would be entirely stochastic.

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The human race is clearly spiritually unevolved as we still kill one another in wars and such.

I could just as easily say the human race is unevolved because members of it still believe in superstitious nonsense. You haven't shown how your religion -- or any religion -- is the answer to war. In fact, in your religion war is no big deal because everyone just gets another turn on the merry-go-round. I'll put atheism up there any day as an answer to war, because we don't appeal to nonexistent gods or irrelevant eternities. In atheism, war is caused by humans and has immediate human consequences. If war is to be avoided, we are responsible for doing it and we are well motivated to do it in a hurry.

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We may incarnate for countless lifetimes before reaching the end of our cycle of rebirths.

Yes, you horked that from Buddhism, and for the reasons already belabored by me and ignored by you, it works out very poorly for any sort of long-term benefit. This is because you taint it with notions of individual souls and post-mortem guilt borrowed from Christianity. Those are incompatible with the Buddhist stuff.

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The present state of humanity has been compared to kindergarten.

By whom?

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Gamolon

So now you're admitting that there are rogue Angels that go against God's laws for the spirit world? That Angels can determine when they can bend the laws or not?

Since they did it, it was allowed. I do think it came from on high, because only an elevated being, spirit or angel would be able to see into the future.

[Gamolon]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I am simply describing the sum of my experiences, and my conclusions

Simple question.

Why?

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I cannot possibly know what the angels are doing, that would make me some kind of guru or prophet, and I am not one.

So perhaps you're not qualified to "promote spiritualism," as you told us you're here to do. Maybe you don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about, and your constant lashing out at your critics is something you should apologize for.

Quote:

I am simply describing the sum of my experiences, and my conclusions

Your conclusions are illogical and without evidentiary support. Their only redemption would be if you had some special insight into the spiritual world you say exists. But you don't have that. So the only reason left for you to describe your experiences and conclusions is that you just want attention.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

By whom?

Ursula Roberts, a trance medium at the spiritualist association in the 1970's

[Gamolon]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Since they did it, it was allowed. I do think it came from on high, because only an elevated being, spirit or angel would be able to see into the future.

So a rogue Angel broke one of God's written "spirit laws"?

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Since they did it, it was allowed. I do think it came from on high, because only an elevated being, spirit or angel would be able to see into the future.

Blatantly circular reasoning.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Ursula Roberts, a trance medium at the spiritualist association in the 1970's

Or so she claims. Can you prove she's not a fake medium? Can you think of any other reason she might want to refer to society condescendingly?

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

From people buying lottery tickets.

So you cheated the lottery and illegally took other peoples money aided and abetted by an "angel".

That's some pretty bad karma right there, no?

[Gamolon]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Ursula Roberts, a trance medium at the spiritualist association in the 1970's

Scorpion, you missed my post below.

Originally Posted by Gamolon

Free will right Scorpion?

You could have gotten even more good karma had you given it to charity or someone in need. Instead you "chose" to keep it for yourself because you deemed your need for a computer to be a better "choice" than giving it to someone who needed it more.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by abaddon

So you cheated the lottery and illegally took other peoples money aided and abetted by an "angel".

That's some pretty bad karma right there, no?

The spirit or angel did it, and I did not know until I won the money. So it was up to the spirit world to make this special dispensation. I maintain that because it was a small win it did not impact much on anyone else, so there is not much karma involved. If they had given me six numbers that would have been millions, and definitely would have involved karmic consequences.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Ursula Roberts, a trance medium at the spiritualist association in the 1970's

Originally Posted by JayUtah

Or so she claims. Can you prove she's not a fake medium? Can you think of any other reason she might want to refer to society condescendingly?

Scorpion has an ability to detect fake mediums. Uses some special kind of litmus paper he has developed I suspect.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Gamolon

Scorpion, you missed my post below.

As I said, I used to give money to homeless people in the street in years gone by. But I think the money was meant for me to buy a computer and that is what I did with it.

You might as well ask why I do not give all my money away. I have a much better computer now. It cost more than the one I purchased in 1998.
I could give all my money away and sit in an empty room with no computer, but that would achieve nothing.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Scorpion has an ability to detect fake mediums. Uses some special kind of litmus paper he has developed I suspect.

On the contrary, he has specifically said he cannot tell real mediums from fake mediums. I suspect this is why he anonymized his citation to authority: "It is said that..." It's a ploy to hopefully not have to deal with the problems endemic to his sources. Strangely, mediums in Scorpion's hands tend to be reliable or fake from day to day, depending on whether their statements seem like nonsense or instead like something that will deliver Scorpion from a critical challenge.

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by Thor 2

Scorpion has an ability to detect fake mediums. Uses some special kind of litmus paper he has developed I suspect.

If they say something utterly wrong like people on Mars and Venus it is obvious they are fakes. But most do not say anything so clearly mistaken, so it is hard to work them out.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I could give all my money away and sit in an empty room with no computer, but that would achieve nothing.

What are you achieving with it?

You're trying to "promote" a religion in a skeptics' forum, but you readily admit you have nothing that would appeal to a skeptic. You are savaging other religions, but you refuse to apply the same critical analysis to your own, and you frantically try to pretend this doesn't constitute a double standard. It seems the only effect your preaching and proselytizing has is to draw attention to you, even if it means enduring mockery -- about which you whine childishly from time to time. That's all a pretty selfish motive, and I can see no other effect for your use of your computer to post here.

If badly promoting a homegrown religion is your achievement, I fail to see how this is the best karmic outcome from everyone else who entered the lottery. Since you know nothing about what someone else would have done with the money, if they had won instead of you, I'd say it's pretty arrogant of you to assume your use of it was the best thing for everyone.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

If they say something utterly wrong like people on Mars and Venus it is obvious they are fakes. But most do not say anything so clearly mistaken, so it is hard to work them out.

What if I consider statements like comparing the present state of humanity to kindergarten just as utterly wrong?

[Scorpion]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

What if I consider statements like comparing the present state of humanity to kindergarten just as utterly wrong?

Humanity behaves like savages, killing each other in wars. I am sure we are capable of becoming far more that we are at present. It may be that we are only beginning our evolutionary journey.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Humanity behaves like savages, killing each other in wars.

Compared to ... ?

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I am sure we are capable of becoming far more that we are at present.

What if we aren't? What facts say we will?

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It may be that we are only beginning our evolutionary journey.

What facts say we are? See, this is just more double standards and circular reasoning. You expect some statements to comport to fact. But when your own beliefs are put to the same test, all you have is speculation and circularity.

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I think its probably like ' back to the future' or ' terminator'. Changing small things alters the timeline.
The angels can see what difference they might be able to make by inspiring someone. So the future can be rewritten.

That's a major mis-remembering/misinterpretation of The Terminator. In that film the future is not changed one iota, in fact it's the attempt to change it which it ensures it happens. It's almost like you don't fully understand anything you read or see, but just assume it all fits with your expectations.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

If they say something utterly wrong like people on Mars and Venus it is obvious they are fakes. But most do not say anything so clearly mistaken, so it is hard to work them out.

But you have labelled some mediums as fakes in previous posts and endorsed others.

I recall you telling us of a medium who had some interaction with a twin brother who died as a baby. The spirit resembled you as a mature adult, you informed us the mediums advised. This maturing spirit notion being somewhat contradictory to other revelations you have shared with us here. You thought the medium was kosher however.

[Thor 2]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

On the contrary, he has specifically said he cannot tell real mediums from fake mediums. I suspect this is why he anonymized his citation to authority: "It is said that..." It's a ploy to hopefully not have to deal with the problems endemic to his sources. Strangely, mediums in Scorpion's hands tend to be reliable or fake from day to day, depending on whether their statements seem like nonsense or instead like something that will deliver Scorpion from a critical challenge.

Elusive indeed is our Scorpion.

[abaddon]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

The spirit or angel did it, and I did not know until I won the money.

That is not what you claimed. You claimed that the angel/s "gave" you the numbers.

Originally Posted by Scorpion

So it was up to the spirit world to make this special dispensation.

It matters not how you slice it. You are an accessory to a crime

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I maintain that because it was a small win it did not impact much on anyone else, so there is not much karma involved.

It impacts the people from whome you happily stole £1182.

Originally Posted by Scorpion

If they had given me six numbers that would have been millions, and definitely would have involved karmic consequences.

They gave you five, and you happily lifted the loot out of others pockets.

That is immoral no matter how you try to excuse it.

[Loss Leader]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I believe in a God that is ...

Well, there it is. End thread.

You have certain beliefs. So long as they bring you comfort, that's great for you. Your mistake is in attempting to proselytize. Nobody here cares about your beliefs, the fact that they are self-contradictory, or that you are a very poor communicator. Go be happy and stop trying to spread your belief system to anyone else. It's personal to you and that's good enough.

[Matthew Ellard]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

I believe in a God that is a formless ocean of consciousness. Such a God does not concern itself with the details of billions of peoples lives.

Nope. Your fictional god is a dick who hates innocent children.

For I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me”

Your fictional god drowned all the innocent children in the flood and he still hates children.

Yet you really really like him. Don't you think that's antisocial of you?

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by abaddon

That is immoral no matter how you try to excuse it.

You deny the power of the circular excuse. If his gods provided for him, then it doesn't matter what others think of it. The fact that it happened is all the proof you need that it's morally okay.

[Little 10 Toes]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

Since they did it, it was allowed. I do think it came from on high, because only an elevated being, spirit or angel would be able to see into the future.

Or maybe your god didn't have the power to stop it.

[Loss Leader]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

You deny the power of the circular excuse. If his gods provided for him, then it doesn't matter what others think of it. The fact that it happened is all the proof you need that it's morally okay.

It's the Terminator defense: As long as you're doing it to save the future, whatever "crimes" you commit are morally justified.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Loss Leader

It's the Terminator defense: As long as you're doing it to save the future, whatever "crimes" you commit are morally justified.

I can think of a whole list of crimes that would improve at least my future.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

We do not always have to do things the hard way. Our karma can be settled by our choice to do good works rather than just suffering. So the angels try to guide us to the best path. But if we are set in our ways to do harm we will pay the full price.

Please explain to me why a 3 year old child is raped multiple times by soldiers and then killed. The following reasons are the reasons you have given for suffering, which is it?

Is it the karma angels that decided it was right for the 3 year old to be raped and killed so the spirit can evolve.

Is it the spirit of the child that decided it needed to "evolve" and it required the 3 year old child to be raped and killed?

Is it a test the karma angels have set up for the soldiers' spirits to see if they will do something so terrible?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

If they had given me six numbers that would have changed my life and it would have impacted on the people who would have won the money otherwise.

I could not afford a computer in 1998 but if I had not won the money I would have saved up for one. It might have taken me two years to do that, so winning the money helped me get computing sooner.



I think it is a quite subtle change, but it affected me positively without making much difference to any one else. I figure it was allowed by the angels or it would not have happened.

You forget they didn't just give you the money to buy a computer, I thought by the way it was to buy a printer?

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

The long run is a very long run. It may be a million years. The human race is clearly spiritually unevolved as we still kill one another in wars and such.

We may incarnate for countless lifetimes before reaching the end of our cycle of rebirths. The present state of humanity has been compared to kindergarten. But in the long run everything will be worked out for our ultimate good.

I thought it was about individuals, you now seem to be saying until all of mankind "evolves" we are stuck here.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

My beliefs were much the same before winning the money. But yes, it is one of a handful of events that has shaped my views. But since it happened I figure the angels of karma allowed it. I do not think my departed relatives would be able to see into the future just because they died. In any case they would not be allowed to interfere by the spirit hierarchy. So I think it was an angel who gave me the win.

You do believe they can interfere, have you forgotten your brother?

[Gamolon]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

As I said, I used to give money to homeless people in the street in years gone by. But I think the money was meant for me to buy a computer and that is what I did with it.

You might as well ask why I do not give all my money away. I have a much better computer now. It cost more than the one I purchased in 1998.
I could give all my money away and sit in an empty room with no computer, but that would achieve nothing.

You need to read my post again Scorpion.

I never said give ALL your money away. I spoke directly about the money you won in the lottery.

If spiritual evolution is based on positive karma, then why didn't you give the money you used to buy a computer to someone who needed it more than you? That would have boosted your karma even more for your next round of incarnation.

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

Or so she claims. Can you prove she's not a fake medium? Can you think of any other reason she might want to refer to society condescendingly?

That the opinion was based on the people she hangs around with?

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by Darat

You do believe they can interfere, have you forgotten your brother?

The whole point of mediumship is the premise that the dead get to keep interfering in the lives of the living. It's the backbone of the industry.

[JayUtah]

Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer

That the opinion was based on the people she hangs around with?

Novel. I hadn't thought of that one. But the one I was going for is the notion that no religion ever got traction because its leaders said, "Everybody's doing just fine."

[Gamolon]

Originally Posted by Scorpion

So if we die as a baby that baby has to grow up in the spirit world. But we do remember all our past lives when we reach a state of enlightenment at the end of our cycle of incarnations.

So an Angel of Karma picked an incarnation for a spirit that it knew would die before it experienced anything in life?

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by JayUtah

Novel. I hadn't thought of that one. But the one I was going for is the notion that no religion ever got traction because its leaders said, "Everybody's doing just fine."

Yes, that was a definite option, but if the spiritualists we've seen on this site are anything to go I figure my option deserves consideration. (I suppose the same applies to all religions..)

[P.J. Denyer]

Originally Posted by Gamolon

So an Angel of Karma picked an incarnation for a spirit that it knew would die before it experienced anything in life?

If people can write things like midicholrians and Peter Cushing's Doctor into their internal fanfic cannon then I guess it's probable they ca....... No forget it.