IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Closed Thread
Old 7th June 2014, 08:45 AM   #1
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Proof of Immortality II

Mod InfoThis thread is a continuation of Immortality and Bayesian Statistics. This new thread has been formed in order to improve the forum's performance. The cut-off point of the previous thread was arbitrary. Feel free to quote from any older posts in this thread. It remains moderated for the time being. Thank you.
Posted By:Loss Leader
















Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
For many people, it is simply the result of eating the wrong sorts of food. Broccoli or beans for some. That must be what Jabba is referring to.
Now, now...
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Loss Leader; 24th June 2014 at 05:40 PM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 09:49 AM   #2
HighRiser
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: High above Indianapolis
Posts: 1,895
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- To what extent do you guys accept strong emergence?
As others have said; it depends on how you define strong emergence. Would you mind doing that?
__________________
Congratulations, you have successfully failed to model something that you assert "isn't noticeable". -The Man

Science is not hopelessly hobbled just because it knows the difference between fact and imagination. -JayUtah
HighRiser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 10:42 AM   #3
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Re #2: Sure.
- Re #1: This is where the words fail us (or maybe, they just fail me).
- Whatever. I’m claiming that each brain copy would produce a different “identity.” IOW, there is something about this sense of self that is not defined by brain chemistry.
- For the moment at least, I’m accepting that the identity could be defined by space/time coordinates -- but only at the instant of consciousness. I include the caveat(?) because each of us experiences (an, at least, illusion of) identity continuity over a lifetime. In the major sense, our identities appear to stay the same over our lifetimes. Our different “characteristics” change from instant to instant, but not our apparent identities.
Could you repeat that again? I'm not sure I got it the first 5 times you posted it. Maybe louder?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 10:52 AM   #4
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by xtifr View Post


Yup, he made a concession! Dude! That's, like, unprecedented!

Well, ok, technically, he conceded that he might have to make a concession. But that's still very nearly almost progress! Or closer to being very nearly almost progress than we've seen in thousands of previous posts.



Well, he tried, but, of course, it wasn't actually evidence. And now, finally, we've very nearly almost gotten him to agree that it wasn't, and very nearly almost gotten him to admit that he might need a better argument. We've very nearly almost reached a tiny, incremental advance in the debate! I'm so excited!



Like I said before, I'm just here for the laughs.
I think you are too optimistic here. Every time in the past, ever time, I thought Jabba finally conceded what others told him about problem with his theory, his very next post bought us back to square one. I hope it has been fun for you, because I think that is all you will get out of Jabba.
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 10:54 AM   #5
xtifr
Graduate Poster
 
xtifr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
Any chance of a link to Jabba's attempt to provide evidence that the soul exists? I seem to have missed it among all of his sidetracks, evasions, and attempts to beg the question.
What, you missed the whole thing about how a copy wouldn't be the same individual as the original, and therefore there must be something mystical about consciousness, because it's not purely dependent on biochemistry? I thought that was a pretty significant part of the discussion.

I never said it was a good attempt (let alone good evidence).
__________________
"Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it."
-- Anonymous Slashdot poster
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore."
-- James Nicoll
xtifr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 10:55 AM   #6
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- To what extent do you guys accept strong emergence?
????? Oh, before you define it: why would I care?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 10:57 AM   #7
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...and this has...what to do with the existence of the "soul", or its "immortality"?
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
This is not our first rodeo, Mr. Savage.

What do you, personally, think you mean when you say, "strong emergence"?

If you are going to claim that the "soul" is a supervenient property, an "extra" not directly dependent upon the physical limitations of the system out of which the property emerges, and that that somehow lets you sneak the "soul" in as the metaphysical prize in an existential Cracker Jack® box, then I, for one, deny it. Absolutely flat deny it. It's a "superproperty-of-the-gaps" argument.

Please do not ignore this question. An honest answer from you could save us four pages of pointless OT circular argument.
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
That is my recollection as well. He also referred to cases of alleged reincarnation, and past lives regression. IOW, woo.
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Sadly it is common for people to think that bad evidence alluded to vaguely is somehow better then bad evidence outright stated.
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
To what extent do you define "strong emergence"?
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
For many people, it is simply the result of eating the wrong sorts of food. Broccoli or beans for some. That must be what Jabba is referring to.
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
TY. I had forgotten the "I'm Napoleon" arguments...
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Now, now...
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by HighRiser View Post
As others have said; it depends on how you define strong emergence. Would you mind doing that?
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Could you repeat that again? I'm not sure I got it the first 5 times you posted it. Maybe louder?
Jabba will not answer.

Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I think you are too optimistic here. Every time in the past, ever time, I thought Jabba finally conceded what others told him about problem with his theory, his very next post bought us back to square one. I hope it has been fun for you, because I think that is all you will get out of Jabba.
Jabba will not answer.

I trust my answers are sufficient?
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 11:13 AM   #8
HighRiser
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: High above Indianapolis
Posts: 1,895
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

I trust my answers are sufficient?
Hope springs eternal... essentially.
__________________
Congratulations, you have successfully failed to model something that you assert "isn't noticeable". -The Man

Science is not hopelessly hobbled just because it knows the difference between fact and imagination. -JayUtah
HighRiser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 11:18 AM   #9
Giordano
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 17,646
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

I trust my answers are sufficient?
True. But I suspect that we are not really talking to him. However you are right and I am very puzzled by why I post. Maybe I am used to being ignored in real life?
Giordano is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 11:23 AM   #10
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

I trust my answers are sufficient?
So, whaddarya tryinta say, exactly?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 11:23 AM   #11
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,909
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- To what extent do you guys accept strong emergence?

Jabba, really, another newly invented term?
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 11:25 AM   #12
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
True. But I suspect that we are not really talking to him. However you are right and I am very puzzled by why I post. Maybe I am used to being ignored in real life?
WHAT?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 11:26 AM   #13
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Jabba, really, another newly invented term?
Oh, it's a legitimate term; I am just unconvinced that Mr. Savage knows what it means.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 11:39 AM   #14
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Jabba, really, another newly invented term?
Sure, why not. I am not extracting the michael here. Jabba really will not answer. You are stuffed, I am stuffed, Slowvehicle is stuffed, Giordano is stuffed, xtifr is stuffed, donn is stuffed, all of us are stuffed. Jabba will only interact with the one currently appointed. Not only that, you can't even guess who that might be because it frakkin changes from moment to moment.

So what exactly is it that we have before us? I can tell you. What we have is a bovine crapfest which is protected by mod and may not be identified for what it is.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 12:15 PM   #15
Humots
Critical Thinker
 
Humots's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 413
Originally Posted by xtifr View Post
Humots, you left of the "if" part of his second statement. He was actually using that second statement as a sort of reductio ad absurdum. Or at least that's how it reads to me.
You are correct.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
It is that “part” of the self, or “sense” of the self, that I’m claiming cannot come from the chemistry of the brain If it did, “I” would be brought back to life by producing an exact copy of my brain as it was when it first began to sense its self.

But his reductio ad absurdum was incorrect. He was saying that if the sense of self did come from the chemistry of the brain, he would be brought back to life.

No, he wouldn't. It would be, as we keep saying, an identical self but not the same self.
Humots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 12:29 PM   #16
xtifr
Graduate Poster
 
xtifr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,299
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- For the moment at least, I’m accepting that the identity could be defined by space/time coordinates -- but only at the instant of consciousness.
There is no "instant of consciousness". Consciousness is a process. It continues until it stops, like running.
Quote:
In the major sense, our identities appear to stay the same over our lifetimes.
Except when we switch bodies. Oh wait, that never happens, so this is not even slightly evidence of something not directly tied to a particular body and brain. So that doesn't even slightly begin to address the location issue.

Oh, and of course, people who suffer brain trauma and can no longer identify with their previous selves. Which again, puts the brain back dead center.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- To what extent do you guys accept strong emergence?
As defined in the Wikipedia article? Not at all. Not one bit. In fact, I would call it the boundary between religion and science. Science doesn't use the term "strong emergence" (and I'd never heard the term before reading that article) because the only form of emergence that's relevant to science is what WP calls "weak".

So-called "weak" emergence is not only the only type of emergence that's been demonstrated to exist, I believe it's the only kind that can be. Pretty much by definition.
__________________
"Those who learn from history are doomed to watch others repeat it."
-- Anonymous Slashdot poster
"The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore."
-- James Nicoll
xtifr is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 01:10 PM   #17
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,909
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Oh, it's a legitimate term; I am just unconvinced that Mr. Savage knows what it means.

Oh, there's very little chance he does because I just read the Wikipedia article and I still don't understand it - but at least this thread accidentally provided me an opportunity for education.
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 01:51 PM   #18
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Oh, there's very little chance he does because I just read the Wikipedia article and I still don't understand it - but at least this thread accidentally provided me an opportunity for education.
Try this:

http://www.iep.utm.edu/emergenc/

Enjoy!
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 01:53 PM   #19
HighRiser
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: High above Indianapolis
Posts: 1,895
Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Oh, there's very little chance he does because I just read the Wikipedia article and I still don't understand it - but at least this thread accidentally provided me an opportunity for education.
I had learned a little about the philosophical aspects of emergence, and just got back from a little Wiki refresher reading. I suspect the "god of the gaps" argument is imminent.
__________________
Congratulations, you have successfully failed to model something that you assert "isn't noticeable". -The Man

Science is not hopelessly hobbled just because it knows the difference between fact and imagination. -JayUtah
HighRiser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 01:57 PM   #20
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- To what extent do you guys accept strong emergence?
Nobody answer this until he defines his understanding of the term, or else Jabba will quote you as agreeing with him after re-defining the term. It's what he does.
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 02:04 PM   #21
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

Jabba will not answer.

I trust my answers are sufficient?
You're prolly right, but he eventually abandoned his Table Cloth of Turin thread after being utterly unable to support his position.

IMO, he has even less evidence or logic for immortality than he did for the authenticity of the Turin Table Cloth.

What's up with that, Jabba?
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 02:05 PM   #22
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- IOW, there is something about this sense of self that is not defined by brain chemistry.
Jabba, remember how the sense of self is defined?
It's an emergent property of a functioning neurosystem.



Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- To what extent do you guys accept strong emergence?
What do you mean by strong emergence?
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba
pakeha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 7th June 2014, 02:25 PM   #23
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,499
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- To what extent do you guys accept strong emergence?
Jabba, my father is 80 and he is in what is euphamisticly referred to as end of life care, or in other words shortly to be dead.

As a man in life, he had not a jot of violence to offer to anyone. He never raised a hand to me nor my siblings. It was my priviledge to speak to him heart to heart. But he knows he is done. He knows that it is a matter of time and he accepts it. Such is the way of things.

When the time comes, I will proudly step up and salute a deeply gentle, gentle man.

Where the hell are you going?

And I know you won't answer.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 06:19 AM   #24
Jabba
Philosopher
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
- I had thought that you guys new about that weak/strong breakdown. I'm using the Wikipedia definition/description of "strong emergence." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...weak_emergence
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 06:22 AM   #25
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I had thought that you guys new about that weak/strong breakdown. I'm using the Wikipedia definition/description of "strong emergence." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...weak_emergence


No you aren't. You're talking about immortal souls and they have nothing to do with any kind of emergence.
__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 06:46 AM   #26
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I had thought that you guys new about that weak/strong breakdown. I'm using the Wikipedia definition/description of "strong emergence." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...weak_emergence
What do YOU, personally, think the Wiki says?

What do YOU, personally, think the Wiki means?

(Hint: if you are trying to sneak a "magic", transcendent, non-corporeal, non-neurosystem-dependent "special quality" in; that is, to point at "strong emergence" as the place where the "soul" you are claiming exists is, in fact, hiding; then, you know--now is time and waaaaay past time for you to lay out your evidence.)

BTW, that's a lovely tie you wore this morning...

ETA: have you read this?
http://www.iep.utm.edu/emergenc/
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 8th June 2014 at 06:48 AM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 06:54 AM   #27
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,768
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I had thought that you guys new about that weak/strong breakdown. I'm using the Wikipedia definition/description of "strong emergence." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...weak_emergence
1. As Ahenaten says, no you are not.

2. No you are not, because you have never raised it before; if you were using one side of a two sided coin, you would have realized we were using the other. This is you flailing about and finding something new, something you do not understand, to latch on to.

3. The sources for strong emergence as something separate from consciousness comprise a philosophy paper in a philosophy journal and possibly a book (not a peer reviewed article) by a physicist. I say possibly because descriptions of the book do not lead me to think that the physicist is saying what you claim.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 06:58 AM   #28
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,909
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I had thought that you guys new about that weak/strong breakdown. I'm using the Wikipedia definition/description of "strong emergence." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergen...weak_emergence

What do you believe is meant by "strong emergence", you handsome devil, you?
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 09:08 AM   #29
Jabba
Philosopher
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
- The reason I've resorted to even fewer and shorter posts is that I've promised my wife to give her needs more of my time. She has all sorts of cleaning, gardening and landscaping that she wants to do but that she needs help with...
- I hadn't said anything about it cause you guys haven't wanted to hear my excuses.
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 09:18 AM   #30
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The reason I've resorted to even fewer and shorter posts is that I've promised my wife to give her needs more of my time. She has all sorts of cleaning, gardening and landscaping that she wants to do but that she needs help with...
- I hadn't said anything about it cause you guys haven't wanted to hear my excuses.
Good Morning, Mr. Savage!

I am turly impressed with your familial dedication, and think that is a fine quality to exercise...

Why not take a break, marshal your arguments, gather your evidence, and, when you have all your ducks in a row, come back and present your actual evidence that the "soul" exists?
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 09:53 AM   #31
Loss Leader
I would save the receptionist.
Moderator
 
Loss Leader's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 27,909
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The reason I've resorted to even fewer and shorter posts is that I've promised my wife to give her needs more of my time. She has all sorts of cleaning, gardening and landscaping that she wants to do but that she needs help with...
- I hadn't said anything about it cause you guys haven't wanted to hear my excuses.

You are a fantastic husband and a really wonderful guy. How do you understand the concept of "strong emergence"?
__________________
I have the honor to be
Your Obdt. St

L. Leader
Loss Leader is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 09:59 AM   #32
George
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 397
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The reason I've resorted to even fewer and shorter posts is that I've promised my wife to give her needs more of my time. She has all sorts of cleaning, gardening and landscaping that she wants to do but that she needs help with...
- I hadn't said anything about it cause you guys haven't wanted to hear my excuses.

Quote:
An explanation offered in defence of some fault or offensive behaviour or as a reason for not fulfilling an obligation
http://www.collinsdictionary.com/dic...english/excuse

Last edited by George; 8th June 2014 at 10:00 AM.
George is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 01:19 PM   #33
Filippo Lippi
Illuminator
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 3,840
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The reason I've resorted to even fewer and shorter posts is that I've promised my wife to give her needs more of my time. She has all sorts of cleaning, gardening and landscaping that she wants to do but that she needs help with...
- I hadn't said anything about it cause you guys haven't wanted to hear my excuses.
How very convenient. The honest thing to do would be to admit you haven't any evidence and then retire with a sliver of integrity. You can't even manage that.
__________________
You can't defeat fascism through debate because it's not simply an idea, proposal or theory. It's a fundamentally flawed way of looking at the world. It's a distorting prism, emotionally charged and completely logic-proof. You may as well challenge rabies to a game of Boggle. @ViolettaCrisis
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 03:03 PM   #34
pakeha
Penultimate Amazing
 
pakeha's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 12,331
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The reason I've resorted to even fewer and shorter posts is that I've promised my wife to give her needs more of my time. She has all sorts of cleaning, gardening and landscaping that she wants to do but that she needs help with...
- I hadn't said anything about it cause you guys haven't wanted to hear my excuses.
Jabba, cleaning, gardening and landscaping are all great activities and well worth spending time on.
While you're doing them, why not ponder the nature of consciousness, which is an emergent property of a functioning neurosystem?
__________________
How many zeros? Jabba
pakeha is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 03:19 PM   #35
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The reason I've resorted to even fewer and shorter posts is that I've promised my wife to give her needs more of my time. She has all sorts of cleaning, gardening and landscaping that she wants to do but that she needs help with...
- I hadn't said anything about it cause you guys haven't wanted to hear my excuses.

I'm skeptical by nature, and especially so when I read your posts.

You have so many reasons why you can't support your claims in the OP! You ought to write a book about it.

Appeals to your wife's needs only make your last 18 months of interlocution more obviously pointless.

Admit that you have failed to support your claims of immortality and the authenticity of the T-Shirt of Turin.

Tend to your wife, and be done with it.
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 8th June 2014, 03:51 PM   #36
Humots
Critical Thinker
 
Humots's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 413
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Thanks, George. I hope you weren't kidding. But, that is a way to get me to respond -- flattery helps...
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- The reason I've resorted to even fewer and shorter posts is that I've promised my wife to give her needs more of my time. She has all sorts of cleaning, gardening and landscaping that she wants to do but that she needs help with...
- I hadn't said anything about it cause you guys haven't wanted to hear my excuses.
Helping your family is a totally acceptable excuse for not responding.

Insufficient flattery is not. Nor is insufficient (as you measure it) respect.

Those are the excuses we don't want to hear.
Humots is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th June 2014, 06:22 AM   #37
Jabba
Philosopher
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,613
Originally Posted by xtifr View Post
There is no "instant of consciousness". Consciousness is a process. It continues until it stops, like running.
- I should have said "first instant of consciousness." Would that help?
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor

Last edited by Jabba; 9th June 2014 at 06:25 AM.
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th June 2014, 06:36 AM   #38
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Nor Flanden
Posts: 35,778
No.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th June 2014, 07:11 AM   #39
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I should have said "first instant of consciousness." Would that help?
Good Morning, Mr. Savage!

What a fine, thoughtful, and insightful question you have asked!

It is unfortunate that my answer must be, "No, it would not help."

What would "help", at this point, would be for you to provide concrete, practical, empirical, objective evidence that the "soul" exists, and is "immortal".

Thanks!
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 9th June 2014, 08:24 AM   #40
Akhenaten
Heretic Pharaoh
 
Akhenaten's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Pi-Broadford, Australia
Posts: 29,692
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I should have said "first instant of consciousness." Would that help?


About as much as "We should move" would have helped the residents of Tunguska in the first instant of them noticing a really large meteorite or the crew of the Titanic saying "We ought to slow down a bit" in the first instant of their iceberginess.

You're flogging an eohippus, Jabba. Give it a rest.
__________________


Life is mostly Froth and Bubble - Adam Lindsay Gordon
Akhenaten is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:03 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.