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Old 3rd March 2017, 03:39 PM   #2401
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Vague ? yea sure

Anonymous ? You didn't read the links did you ?

The other side ? Get on with it man !
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Old 3rd March 2017, 04:02 PM   #2402
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Vague ? yea sure

Anonymous ? You didn't read the links did you ?

The other side ? Get on with it man !
I read the links, and some of the links in those links, and there wasn't an actual incident or action talked about. "I was in an abusive relationship" isn't evidence, it's a claim.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 04:20 PM   #2403
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Yes, the whole thing seems pretty vague at this point, What with claims of inappropriate behavior, whatever that means but there has to be an element of truth to them otherwise Killstein's departure would have been framed as something like "creative differences"

I'm putting my money on Killstein being a douchbag but if these claims turn out to be unfounded, then I guess I'm going to loose my dollar.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 06:10 PM   #2404
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Yes, the whole thing seems pretty vague at this point, What with claims of inappropriate behavior, whatever that means but there has to be an element of truth to them otherwise Killstein's departure would have been framed as something like "creative differences"

I'm putting my money on Killstein being a douchbag but if these claims turn out to be unfounded, then I guess I'm going to loose my dollar.
That's completely irrational. There doesn't "have to be" anything to it.

It would be interesting to see what point the Kilstein-Kilkenny divorce is at. That could very well be the cause of all this, or at least his leaving the show.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 06:18 PM   #2405
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For sure the divorce could be a factor it's the presence of the other three women that lends credence to the idea that this guy wasn't acting as feminist as his public persona.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 06:29 PM   #2406
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Don't take this the wrong way, but the idea of previously allied persons having very vocal fallings out is rather interesting. I think that both 'sides' could lower the level of acrimony by agreeing to talk about the situation in some neutral venue - say a hotel room or some such. And since we wouldn't want them to become belligerent they should restrict their choice of beverage to something like a nice coffee ...
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Old 3rd March 2017, 06:31 PM   #2407
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Vague ? yea sure

Anonymous ? You didn't read the links did you ?

The other side ? Get on with it man !
From a link in PZ's post I got to this:
Quote:
There had been murmurs of this in the past, but understandably, the women wished to remain anonymous, so I was never able to learn the full scope of what happened until very recently (a couple days ago).
No, I did not bother spending time sifting through the links. But by all means, give us the summary of facts hopefully with both sides besides the fact the guy resigned from the podcast.
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Old 3rd March 2017, 06:47 PM   #2408
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The second link actually names all three women

AS to both sides....Maybe my post upthread was a little cryptic and to spell it out in plain English...Killstein hasn't said anything yet.

This is SJW culture though and if Killstien wants to stay true to form then his only option is to admit his transgressions apologize and live the rest of his life in shame.
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Old 4th March 2017, 06:46 AM   #2409
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I don't see how some vague accusations that Jamie was abusive in a relationship (sounds like he wasn't accused of any physical abuse -- not that that makes it okay or not abuse, but it's still a different thing) and was a jerk to another person, makes him "not a feminist" and worthy of losing record deals. I don't think it's evidence that he was "just claiming to be a feminist to get women to trust him / to get sex" (paraphrasing what I've heard some people say in various places).

Is Zoe Quinn "not a feminist", because she mistreated someone in a relationship? I always heard that what went down between her and Eron was "not anybody else's business" and even heard Eron criticized for speaking publicly about it, because it "encouraged harassment". I agreed in the sense that I don't think Quinn should have been harassed or publicly shamed and I didn't think it should have any bearing on her career (though I didn't have a problem with Eron speaking out about being mistreated). I suppose one could argue that the difference is, lying and cheating is not the same thing as "abuse" (but if differences like this are important that makes it all the more important for allegations to not be so vague).

I suspect that, if it were another person, Jamie would have little sympathy and would take a fairly hard-line stance against the accused. I still have some sympathy for him, though. There are people in my life who have been ****** to people at times, both in and out of relationships, and I wouldn't want to see them publicly shamed or have their ability to make a living harmed because of it. (Doesn't mean I think mistreating people is okay, but we're all flawed humans).

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Old 7th March 2017, 02:36 PM   #2410
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The allegations were very vague at first, but there are more details at Jezebel: http://jezebel.com/progressive-perfo...ize-1792945836

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Old 7th March 2017, 02:44 PM   #2411
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The allegations were very vague at first, but there are more details at Jezebel: http://jezebel.com/progressive-perfo...ize-1792945836

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"Don Giovanni Records, which released Kilstein’s political punk band’s album A Bit Much last year, has also severed ties with the performer. “We believe all of the women involved and were able to come to a swift and easy decision without having to hear Jamie’s side of the story or anyone else’s,” the label wrote in a Facebook post that linked to Kilkenny’s."

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Old 7th March 2017, 02:48 PM   #2412
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
The allegations were very vague at first, but there are more details at Jezebel: http://jezebel.com/progressive-perfo...ize-1792945836

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Yet more vague claims such as:

Quote:
being manipulative, emotionally abusive, and predatory in his behavior
That is meaningless IMO, and if anything suggests this is yet another case of the SJWs telling people what their social interactions are to be limited to.


OMG, he made a pass:
Quote:
who they say he exploited his status and feminist principles to make sexual advances towards them.
OMG he tricked the vulnerable woman into sex:
Quote:
Later that day, he suggested watching TV together in her hotel room, and the relationship became sexual that night. According to the woman, Kilstein was still in a committed marriage with Kilkenny, but the affair stretched on for nearly two years.
Seriously, that is insulting to women to suggest they are so vulnerable should a man come on to them and they have sex they must be innocent little victims.

Were they not adults here? I'm sorry but honestly ladies, grow some pussy hair, take responsibility for telling the guy, no thanks, boss or not.

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Old 7th March 2017, 02:52 PM   #2413
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Could you summarize the facts for me so I don't have to wade through yet more vague claims such as:

That is meaningless IMO, and if anything suggests this is yet another case of the SJWs telling people what their social interactions are to be limited to.
He did a lot of flirting, banged some chick who worked for him (while he was still married) and did a lot of flirting. You know, typical male stuff everyone despises. For my money, don't trust people with penises. If they really cared, I mean really, they'd cut it off.
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Old 7th March 2017, 02:53 PM   #2414
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Marplots' summary confirmed.

With the exception of the workplace affair (which was indeed ethically questionable) Jamie is mostly just being slut-shamed.
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Old 7th March 2017, 02:56 PM   #2415
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Yes, see my edits, I didn't scroll down far enough. I agree.
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Old 7th March 2017, 04:16 PM   #2416
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
OMG he tricked the vulnerable woman into sex:Seriously, that is insulting to women to suggest they are so vulnerable should a man come on to them and they have sex they must be innocent little victims.

Were they not adults here? I'm sorry but honestly ladies, grow some pussy hair, take responsibility for telling the guy, no thanks, boss or not.
And here I thought (some decades ago, mind you) that feminism was, at least to some extent, about growing some pussy hair. Nowadays feminism is a disjointed monster with several heads, and quite often I feel like I'm supposed to let women grow some pussy hair while at the same time make them feel like they are porcelain figures with hairless vulvae.

- What do we want?
- (gibberish)
- Sorry, one at a time, please?
- Now!

That's how I feel with feminism, whatever it is, or wants to be.
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Old 7th March 2017, 05:15 PM   #2417
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Originally Posted by Dani View Post
And here I thought (some decades ago, mind you) that feminism was, at least to some extent, about growing some pussy hair. Nowadays feminism is a disjointed monster with several heads, and quite often I feel like I'm supposed to let women grow some pussy hair while at the same time make them feel like they are porcelain figures with hairless vulvae.

It's really not that difficult to understand, really. There are two main schools of feminism: traditional feminism, and critical theory feminism.

The first is the mainstream of feminism, and historically has been concerned with things like civil rights and equality, treating as reasonable adults fully equal with men, possessing the same rights, and equally capable of making choices regarding their own lives and bodies. It started in the US with the Suffragette movement, grew during the Civil Right's era, and got behind the doomed Equal Rights Amendment, as well as issues like sexual harassment and abortion.

The second originated in academia in the 1970s, as branch of neo-Marxist Critical Theory, which itself was an outgrowth of Post-Modernism. If critical-theory feminism can be said to have a focus, it has been to redefine all of culture and history via its relationship to the Marxist and Post-Modernist worldviews, and their accompanying revisionism, anti-intellectualism (which it disguises as anti-elitism) denial of objective reality, and emphasis on subjective experience and emotional rather than logical reasoning. That gave birth to Third-Wave feminism, which took those principles to their logical conclusion, and incorporated concepts such as "intersectionality" (the foundation for "oppression olympics"), "always believe", "Schroedinger's Rapist", emphasis on ideological purity with its resulting call-out culture, and "micro-aggression" (a low-level sub-intentional expression of unconscious sexism or racism). Because of the subjective nature of critical theory, it is highly prone to rapid mutation and factionalization, and most of its principles and claims are ultimately unfalsifiable.

Due to the sheer stridency of the critical-theory supporters, and the perceived errors of mainstream feminism (predominantly its ostensible failure to be sufficiently inclusive of people of colour), many of critical theory feminism's concepts, and their resulting flaws, have begun cross-pollinating back into mainstream feminism, particularly its emphasis on subjective experience, emotional reasoning, and tendency toward factionalization.
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Old 8th March 2017, 11:27 AM   #2418
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Superb summary, luchog.
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Old 8th March 2017, 01:05 PM   #2419
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Superb summary, luchog.
Agreed. Luchog, that was an outstanding post. It doesn't make current feminism any less confusing to me, but it helps explain where that confusion is coming from.
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Old 9th March 2017, 08:33 AM   #2420
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In honor of luchhog's excellent summary, I dug up this visual illustration of the smothering relationship between 3rd wave intersectionality and their feminist forebears.




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Old 9th March 2017, 06:31 PM   #2421
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
In honor of luchhog's excellent summary, I dug up this visual illustration of the smothering relationship between 3rd wave intersectionality and their feminist forebears.

That was brilliant
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Old 9th March 2017, 06:51 PM   #2422
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
It's really not that difficult to understand, really. There are two main schools of feminism: traditional feminism, and critical theory feminism.

The first is the mainstream of feminism, and historically has been concerned with things like civil rights and equality, treating as reasonable adults fully equal with men, possessing the same rights, and equally capable of making choices regarding their own lives and bodies. It started in the US with the Suffragette movement, grew during the Civil Right's era, and got behind the doomed Equal Rights Amendment, as well as issues like sexual harassment and abortion.
That is feminism.

Originally Posted by luchog View Post
The second originated in academia in the 1970s, as branch of neo-Marxist Critical Theory, which itself was an outgrowth of Post-Modernism. If critical-theory feminism can be said to have a focus, it has been to redefine all of culture and history via its relationship to the Marxist and Post-Modernist worldviews, and their accompanying revisionism, anti-intellectualism (which it disguises as anti-elitism) denial of objective reality, and emphasis on subjective experience and emotional rather than logical reasoning. That gave birth to Third-Wave feminism, which took those principles to their logical conclusion, and incorporated concepts such as "intersectionality" (the foundation for "oppression olympics"), "always believe", "Schroedinger's Rapist", emphasis on ideological purity with its resulting call-out culture, and "micro-aggression" (a low-level sub-intentional expression of unconscious sexism or racism). Because of the subjective nature of critical theory, it is highly prone to rapid mutation and factionalization, and most of its principles and claims are ultimately unfalsifiable.

Due to the sheer stridency of the critical-theory supporters, and the perceived errors of mainstream feminism (predominantly its ostensible failure to be sufficiently inclusive of people of colour), many of critical theory feminism's concepts, and their resulting flaws, have begun cross-pollinating back into mainstream feminism, particularly its emphasis on subjective experience, emotional reasoning, and tendency toward factionalization.


And here I thought the other version of feminism (not saying there are only two versions) was the Elevatorgate nonsense that men were supposed to act the way a bunch of women decided men were supposed to act? Sadly that version ignores the real problem of the rape-culture trying to make said culture be the case any and everywhere, like OMG hitting on a woman in an elevator, while diluting the actual problem such as when a whole town doesn't get it that sex with an unconscious female is rape.
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Old 10th March 2017, 08:01 AM   #2423
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And here I thought the other version of feminism (not saying there are only two versions) was the Elevatorgate nonsense that men were supposed to act the way a bunch of women decided men were supposed to act?

That's part and parcel of the Third-Wave critical theory feminist response to pretty much everything. Redefining the world through a subjective lens that emphasizes emotional reasoning and call-out culture over evidence-based reasoning and "big tent" cooperation. If you look at everyone involved in that on Rebecca's side, they are all pretty much of the same sort.

Obviously there are multiple other versions of feminism, but most of them that I'm familiar with are offshoots of critical theory feminism.

Quote:
Sadly that version ignores the real problem of the rape-culture trying to make said culture be the case any and everywhere, like OMG hitting on a woman in an elevator, while diluting the actual problem such as when a whole town doesn't get it that sex with an unconscious female is rape.

Again, part and parcel. It's all about personal experience and feeling, regardless of actual, real-world facts; as well as virtue-signaling and ideological purity. What really disturbs me is the way that, while claiming to be more inclusive, the actual end result is extremely racist and exclusionary. "Rape Culture" based on off-colour humour and hitting on someone in an elevator is a world-ending problem that requires screaming tantrums and shutting down conventions; while FGM and sex trafficking in the third world are "brown people problems" and not something that white feminists should be involved with because reasons. Ostensibly it's because white people getting involved is too close to "colonialism" (which is a stupid reason), so they have to solve their own problems. The end result just as de facto racist as they claim they are trying to avoid, if not moreso.
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Old 26th February 2018, 09:41 AM   #2424
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Petition to add Lawrence Krauss to the thread title.

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/stat...78754915946497
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Old 27th February 2018, 09:23 AM   #2425
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Quote:
One guy the rabid SJWs hate - and I mean hate with a passion - is the Amazing Atheist. The man is utterly immune from any kind of attack that the rabid SJWs could conceive of launching. I guess sticking a banana up your but immunizes you from SJW attacks.
I don't think you have to be an SJW to object to a guy who attacked a girl who committed suicide.
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Old 1st March 2018, 05:10 PM   #2426
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Petition to add Lawrence Krauss to the thread title.

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/stat...78754915946497
This is easy. That guy is wearing a fedora...guilty!
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Old 1st March 2018, 06:59 PM   #2427
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Seriously, that is insulting to women to suggest they are so vulnerable should a man come on to them and they have sex they must be innocent little victims.
I'm with you.

I honestly find this sort of thing to be anti-feminism. It's a fundamental denial of our own sense of agency! It's relinquishing your own autonomy in sexual decision-making over to you sexual partner if said partner happens to be a man. Very Old Testament, when you get to thinking about it.
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Old 13th April 2018, 04:37 PM   #2428
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Petition to add Lawrence Krauss to the thread title.
Petition to add David Silverman to the thread title.

https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/sta...08007799603200
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Old 19th April 2018, 12:23 PM   #2429
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Shermer updates

http://archive.is/L4v4N

https://twitter.com/pzmyers/status/986735016838291457

https://www.thechannels.org/news/201...t-allegations/
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Old 29th November 2018, 04:53 PM   #2430
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Petition to add Lawrence Krauss to the thread title.

https://twitter.com/jessesingal/stat...78754915946497

Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Petition to add David Silverman to the thread title.

https://twitter.com/BuzzFeedNews/sta...08007799603200
.
.
.

Petition to add Neil deGrasse Tyson to the thread title:

https://twitter.com/TheOfficialPORP/...33864416559107
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Old 29th November 2018, 05:16 PM   #2431
kellyb
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
.
.
.

Petition to add Neil deGrasse Tyson to the thread title:

https://twitter.com/TheOfficialPORP/...33864416559107
Hate to hear that.
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Old 29th November 2018, 05:18 PM   #2432
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I wonder what the truth is.
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Old 29th November 2018, 06:33 PM   #2433
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Here's a rather tablidish take on the latest allegations.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosacr...al-misconduct/
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Old 1st December 2018, 10:33 PM   #2434
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NDT responds:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-...6870826326613/

Going over the accusations again from Stout's link above, I think there's a really good chance he and the woman who was his assistant are both basically telling the truth from their own perspectives.
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Last edited by kellyb; 1st December 2018 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 1st December 2018, 11:17 PM   #2435
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
NDT responds:
https://www.facebook.com/notes/neil-...6870826326613/

Going over the accusations again from Stout's link above, I think there's a really good chance he and the woman who was his assistant are both basically telling the truth from their own perspectives.
The one where the assistant thought he wanted more than he says he did?

I'm glad I read that. Before that I didn't have enough information to judge. Now I think I do and unless accusations surface of more than 'I thought he was creepy once', I'm not impressed.

I have a problem with two people who work together closely for months that suddenly at the end one thinks the other is coming on and doesn't simply say, wasn't my intent and the other says, wasn't mine either, or however the conversation goes.

Behind the back whispers aren't something I put much credence in unless one is talking about obvious obnoxious male behavior witnessed by multiple people.

As for the 80s accusation, I bet a lot of famous men who aren't chasing tail get accused of it anyway. (A lot of them are, so I want it clear it's the evidence that matters). The tail-chasing guys are almost, if not always, observed with the behavior by multiple people.

The drugging and raping 30 years ago doesn't have the same kind of credence like the Cosby crimes. People have imaginary fantasies about famous people. Without corroborating evidence, I find the accusation not credible.
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Old 1st December 2018, 11:22 PM   #2436
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Originally Posted by Stout View Post
Here's a rather tablidish take on the latest allegations.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/nosacr...al-misconduct/
The photo corroborates Tyson's account.
Quote:
The second photo shows Tyson grabbing Dr. Allers’ arm and looking at her tattoo (which is of the solar system). Immediately after this photo, she says he decided to “look for Pluto” in her dress....

Dr. Allers didn’t feel like she was in danger during her encounter with Tyson, but she did describe it as “uncomfortable and creepy.”
I fail to see evidence of groping which one would think involved more than one's collar bone.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 01:26 AM   #2437
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Quote:
The second photo shows Tyson grabbing Dr. Allers’ arm and looking at her tattoo (which is of the solar system). Immediately after this photo, she says he decided to “look for Pluto” in her dress....

It seems to show that he was a geek rather than a creep. Not that geeks can't be creepy ...
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Old 2nd December 2018, 02:17 AM   #2438
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Hoo boo the right wing is all over this all over Twitter and facebook comments. Basically they think that if he goes down so does climate change.
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Old 2nd December 2018, 07:53 AM   #2439
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The double standards are as absurd and as obvious as when the John in Chief criticized Al Franken. (3:10-3:18)

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx

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Old 3rd December 2018, 06:21 PM   #2440
d4m10n
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
The photo corroborates Tyson's account.
I fail to see evidence of groping which one would think involved more than one's collar bone.
I once asked a female friend if I could see her (full) back tattoo, which is an amazingly artistic take on the evolutionary tree of life from protozoans to animals. She proudly displayed it, and now I can only hope this encounter doesn't come back to bite me.
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