ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 17th January 2015, 11:33 AM   #201
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Some people having a lot of money isn't causing some people to be lazy. Redistribution is going to cause people to sit back and expect handouts. That's why we have record numbers of people on welfare. Why work two jobs when I can just sit back and let the government dole out the benefits?
Why go to school? Just cut class and smoke weed. When I get older, the government will redistribute some money to me.

How is taking away Bill Gates money going to result in more jobs? What a silly thing to assert.
What you point out is just a proof and evidence that money is a arm of massive destruction and that rich people are serial killers. Let me explain: if you take 40 billions dollar and you give it to 8 billions people, then every fellow has 5 dollars. 5 dollars doesn't last long and spent quickly. So as that money is spent by consumers there is need to provide goods and food to fulfill the demand, then millions of job are created. Then the workers will get the money and spend it and the consumers will becone workers fo fullfill more need. But if that fellow keeps that 40 billions, he won't eat and consume as 8 billion people so not even a job or just a few is created to fulfill his need. Then you see that rich create, unemployement, poverty, starvation and misery.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2015, 12:39 PM   #202
ComfySlippers
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 4,723
What if the rich man builds a factory and employs a million workers at his own expense?
Is he still the bad guy?

I struggle to understand your odd ideas designed to hide your even weirder religious beliefs.
ComfySlippers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2015, 01:57 PM   #203
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,987
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What you point out is just a proof and evidence that money is a arm of massive destruction and that rich people are serial killers.
The consequence of that belief is that all aid to the poor should be terminated immediately, since it is simply destroying the "poors".

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Let me explain: if you take 40 billions dollar and you give it to 8 billions people, then every fellow has 5 dollars.
Your math is borked. There are not 8 billion living humans, only 7 billion and if you remove the self sufficient, the 40 billion dollars must only be distributed across the remainder.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
5 dollars doesn't last long and spent quickly.
5 dollars in New york does not go very far. 5 dollars in Africa feeds a family for a year. In NY it hardly gets you a busboy or a taxi. You intentionally remove context in an attempt to bully and enforce your religious baloney agenda. Nobody forced you to believe in genies except yourself.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
So as that money is spent by consumers there is need to provide goods and food to fulfill the demand,
No. That is not how it works. I cannot fathom how exactly you might think it works. Feel free to defend this nonsensical idea.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
then millions of job are created.
And this is bad because???

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Then the workers will get the money and spend it and the consumers will becone workers fo fullfill more need.
And this is bad because????

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
But if that fellow keeps that 40 billions, he won't eat and consume as 8 billion people so not even a job or just a few is created to fulfill his need. Then you see that rich create, unemployement, poverty, starvation and misery.
Gates is sharing his wealth. You want to stop him. I put it to you that your fervent desire, as you have posted here, reveals that it is your wish that the poor remain poor. IOW you are fully in favour of oppression of the poor.

Do not back away from it. That is exactly where your notions lead, pure and simple. What these crackpot ideas lead to is outright ignorance, and you are advocating this as a good thing.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2015, 07:15 PM   #204
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Originally Posted by ComfySlippers View Post
What if the rich man builds a factory and employs a million workers at his own expense?
Is he still the bad guy?
This is the samething than distributing the money but his story didn't say that he did.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 17th January 2015, 11:55 PM   #205
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
What you point out is just a proof and evidence that money is a arm of massive destruction and that rich people are serial killers. Let me explain: if you take 40 billions dollar and you give it to 8 billions people, then every fellow has 5 dollars. 5 dollars doesn't last long and spent quickly. So as that money is spent by consumers there is need to provide goods and food to fulfill the demand, then millions of job are created. Then the workers will get the money and spend it and the consumers will becone workers fo fullfill more need. But if that fellow keeps that 40 billions, he won't eat and consume as 8 billion people so not even a job or just a few is created to fulfill his need. Then you see that rich create, unemployement, poverty, starvation and misery.
Biil Gates not only made himself a fortune, he also made many others wealthy and employed many many people in the process. He also started a foundation worth billions that helps the ""poors".

You you suggest that Bill Gates' be stripped on his money so the poors can all buy a loaf of bread, leaving Bill Gates broke.

Then Microsoft goes broke, people become unemployed and Bill Gates is no longer able to help the needy. Don't you see the flaw in your redistribution plan?
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 07:19 AM   #206
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 27,918
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
This is the samething than distributing the money but his story didn't say that he did.
Bill Gates' story didn't say that? You should raise your head up from your weird religious tracts once in a while and look at the world around you. Your arguments are totally divorced from reality.

Do you have any sane arguments to make?
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 08:36 AM   #207
Stacko
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 8,310
Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Do you have any sane arguments to make?
No. In case you missed it, follow Zig's link.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post10300448
Stacko is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 11:42 AM   #208
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Bill Gates' story didn't say that? You should raise your head up from your weird religious tracts once in a while and look at the world around you. Your arguments are totally divorced from reality.

Do you have any sane arguments to make?
The Parable of the Talents

14 p“For qit will be like a man rgoing on a journey, who called his servants3 and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five stalents,4 to another two, to another one, tto each according to his ability. Then he rwent away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and udug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now vafter a long time the master of those servants came and wsettled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and xfaithful servant.5 yYou have been faithful over a little; zI will set you over much. Enter into athe joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be ba hard man, reaping cwhere you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here dyou have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You ewicked and eslothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 fFor to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And gcast hthe worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place gthere will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Then as you see that fellow who hide his money and didn't share goes to hell, do you understand this parable?
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 01:56 PM   #209
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 27,918
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The Parable of the Talents

14 p“For qit will be like a man rgoing on a journey, who called his servants3 and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five stalents,4 to another two, to another one, tto each according to his ability. Then he rwent away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and udug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now vafter a long time the master of those servants came and wsettled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and xfaithful servant.5 yYou have been faithful over a little; zI will set you over much. Enter into athe joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be ba hard man, reaping cwhere you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here dyou have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You ewicked and eslothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 fFor to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And gcast hthe worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place gthere will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Then as you see that fellow who hide his money and didn't share goes to hell, do you understand this parable?
Yes, it's used by evil people to hold those who can't think for themselves in thrall. The fictional places of "heaven" and "hell" from Christian mythology were invented to placate or threaten, as the need arose, the less intelligent by those who desired power.

Do you understand that gods and djinns and angels don't exist?
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 03:00 PM   #210
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 38,293
Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Do you understand that gods and djinns and angels don't exist?
Why would he understand that when he thinks he actually sees them?

I warned you, but you still don't understand what you're dealing with.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 03:31 PM   #211
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,992
Better than you.

This parable deals with taking that which you are given and using industry, making it into something more. Nothing about sharing with the less fortunate.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 04:23 PM   #212
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 27,918
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why would he understand that when he thinks he actually sees them?

I warned you, but you still don't understand what you're dealing with.
Actually, I do. I had warned people back in 2011.
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 05:29 PM   #213
ComfySlippers
Banned
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 4,723
I'd like to donate what little wealth I have to a charity whos goal is to provide straight jackets to the poors

And <insert Bible quote>.

Gaetan, chapter 1 paragraph 3 sentence 16 in The Book Of Sausages states that man shall not have sex with three goats whilst eating cabbage on the second Friday of the 17th month of the year if his hat is yellow, his surname is WiggglyAntelope and he hasn't learned to roller skate with pandas.

This is true because The Book Of Sausages says so, and because I italicised some words. Also, I have a jaunty hat.

Last edited by ComfySlippers; 18th January 2015 at 05:30 PM.
ComfySlippers is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 06:12 PM   #214
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,987
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The Parable of the Talents

14 p“For qit will be like a man rgoing on a journey, who called his servants3 and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five stalents,4 to another two, to another one, tto each according to his ability. Then he rwent away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and udug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now vafter a long time the master of those servants came and wsettled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and xfaithful servant.5 yYou have been faithful over a little; zI will set you over much. Enter into athe joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be ba hard man, reaping cwhere you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here dyou have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You ewicked and eslothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 fFor to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And gcast hthe worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place gthere will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Then as you see that fellow who hide his money and didn't share goes to hell, do you understand this parable?
Behold the inerrant word of dog, no less.

Shall we "gcast" you out? Are you "eslothful"? Or are you "xfaithful"? Perhaps you are instead a "ba hard man"? Surely that would make yYou "ewicked"? Unless you had previously "wsettled" your accounts with "stalents"? If you have done so, "zI" will "rwent" away, but "zI" will not be "rgoing" until "vafter" you post something sensible.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 10:34 PM   #215
Little 10 Toes
Graduate Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,814
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The Parable of the Talents

(edited and re-formatted. Please note I have snipped some or the "quoted" verses)

15 To one he gave five talents, four to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master’s money.

20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents.’

Then as you see that fellow who hide his money and didn't share goes to hell, do you understand this parable?
No. Please see the highlighted text. The Master wanted to get a profit. Even the Bible wants people to make a profit.

Since we are on the Bible, in the Parable of the Good SamaritanWP, how did the Samaritan pay for the treatment?
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 18th January 2015, 11:24 PM   #216
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
The Parable of the Talents

14 p“For qit will be like a man rgoing on a journey, who called his servants3 and entrusted to them his property. 15 To one he gave five stalents,4 to another two, to another one, tto each according to his ability. Then he rwent away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them, and he made five talents more. 17 So also he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and udug in the ground and hid his master’s money. 19 Now vafter a long time the master of those servants came and wsettled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.’ 21 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and xfaithful servant.5 yYou have been faithful over a little; zI will set you over much. Enter into athe joy of your master.’ 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, ‘Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.’ 23 His master said to him, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your master.’ 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be ba hard man, reaping cwhere you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here dyou have what is yours.’ 26 But his master answered him, ‘You ewicked and eslothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 fFor to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And gcast hthe worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place gthere will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

Then as you see that fellow who hide his money and didn't share goes to hell, do you understand this parable?
Gaetan, you should note that in the parable of the talents, God rewarded those to took what they had and gained more. You are confirming that Bill Gates is doing God's work because he took what he had and gained many more "talents". Thus Bill Gates is given even more and more because he has done well with what he is given.

On the other hand, the lazy "poor" servant did nothing and God took away what little he had. In fact, God said he would take from the "poor" who did nothing and gave it to Bill Gates who made the most of his talents. Thank you for confirming that you've been wrong all along and that money as it is, is the way God designed it.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2015, 04:55 PM   #217
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Do you need more proof to keep that stupid money system on.

The combined wealth of the richest 1 percent will overtake that of the other 99 percent of people next year unless the current trend of rising inequality is checked, Oxfam warned today ahead of the annual World Economic Forum meeting in Davos.

The international agency, whose executive director Winnie Byanyima will co-chair the Davos event, warned that the explosion in inequality is holding back the fight against global poverty at a time when 1 in 9 people do not have enough to eat and more than a billion people still live on less than $1.25-a-day...

Staggering inequality...

“Business as usual for the elite isn’t a cost free option – failure to tackle inequality will set the fight against poverty back decades. The poor are hurt twice by rising inequality – they get a smaller share of the economic pie and because extreme inequality hurts growth, there is less pie to be shared around.”

Business must act

Oxfam made headlines at Davos last year with the revelation that the 85 richest people on the planet have the same wealth as the poorest 50 percent (3.5 billion people). That figure is now 80 – a dramatic fall from 388 people in 2010. The wealth of the richest 80 doubled in cash terms between 2009-14...

Billionaires listed as having interests in the pharmaceutical and healthcare sectors saw their collective net worth increase by 47 percent. During 2013, they spent more than $500 million lobbying policy makers in Washington and Brussels...

There is increasing evidence from the International Monetary Fund, among others, that extreme inequality is not just bad news for those at the bottom but also damages economic growth.

http://www.oxfam.org/en/pressroom/pr...-all-rest-2016

Last edited by Gaetan; 19th January 2015 at 04:57 PM.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2015, 07:37 PM   #218
Little 10 Toes
Graduate Poster
 
Little 10 Toes's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,814
Is there a reason why you are avoiding the discussion of the parable that YOU brought up?
Little 10 Toes is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 19th January 2015, 07:40 PM   #219
The Central Scrutinizer
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Central Scrutinizer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 52,870
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Do you need more proof to keep that stupid money system on.
Yes.
__________________
If I see somebody with a gun on a plane? I'll kill him.

Lupus is Lupus tor central scrutineezer
The Central Scrutinizer is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2015, 06:48 AM   #220
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 27,918
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
<snipped non-answer>
You've been asked questions which you have yet to answer. Is there a reason that you refuse to answer them?
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2015, 07:06 AM   #221
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 5,992
Originally Posted by Little 10 Toes View Post
Is there a reason why you are avoiding the discussion of the parable that YOU brought up?
It doesn't mean what he thought it meant and is desperately trying to avoid having to admit his error.

Either that or a bright, shiny object has suddenly appeared.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2015, 12:46 PM   #222
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Do you need more proof to keep that stupid money system on.

The combined wealth of the richest 1 percent will overtake that of the other 99 percent of people next year unless the current trend of rising inequality is checked, Oxfam warned today ahead of the annual World Economic Forum meeting in Davos.
That's how God wants it according to the parable you posted. Those who have will be given even more.

Quote:
28 So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2015, 04:36 PM   #223
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
That's how God wants it according to the parable you posted. Those who have will be given even more.
That parable is about a fellow who hides his money instead to put it in circulation to keep the Wheel going. Then what you should do with money is to spend or invest it to keep the Wheel going and put the money back in the economy. He was blamed to not do that and keep the money. If you keep the Wheel going it is just like to not use money because everybody has his share.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2015, 05:04 PM   #224
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
That parable is about a fellow who hides his money instead to put it in circulation to keep the Wheel going. Then what you should do with money is to spend or invest it to keep the Wheel going and put the money back in the economy. He was blamed to not do that and keep the money. If you keep the Wheel going it is just like to not use money because everybody has his share.
No, it wasn't about someone hiding his own money. It was someone hiding the money of his master so his master didn't have any gain when he returned.

The master said his servant was evil and slothful (lazy). Thus the servant was to be cast out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Your redistribution plan would create lazy people because they won't have to do any work to receive money. You are setting up the "poors" to be cast out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Quote:
29fFor to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2015, 06:18 PM   #225
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
No, it wasn't about someone hiding his own money. It was someone hiding the money of his master so his master didn't have any gain when he returned.

The master said his servant was evil and slothful (lazy). Thus the servant was to be cast out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Your redistribution plan would create lazy people because they won't have to do any work to receive money. You are setting up the "poors" to be cast out where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It doesn't matter if it was his money or not: He did not spend or invest it that's why he is going to hell, because he kept the money and didn't share it to keep the money circulating so that the money is useless, because if it is circulating everybody has a share. His fault was to keep the money for him, that's why he was bad treated.

You are a servant of the 1% who'll have 99% of all wealth by 2016, next year.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 20th January 2015, 07:06 PM   #226
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It doesn't matter if it was his money or not: He did not spend or invest it that's why he is going to hell, because he kept the money and didn't share it to keep the money circulating so that the money is useless, because if it is circulating everybody has a share. His fault was to keep the money for him, that's why he was bad treated.

You are a servant of the 1% who'll have 99% of all wealth by 2016, next year.
If it is as you say, that money should be circulated. And that someone would go to hell for not circulating money. Why do you advocate for completely removing money from society?

Secondly, the parable you posted says nothing about someone going to hell simply for hiding money. You have misunderstood the parable and now you are backpeddling since you painted yourself into a corner.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 06:43 AM   #227
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 27,918
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
It doesn't matter if it was his money or not: He did not spend or invest it that's why he is going to hell,
Now you're changing your tune such that investing money will keep someone from going to your fictional hell?

Quote:
because he kept the money and didn't share it to keep the money circulating so that the money is useless, because if it is circulating everybody has a share. His fault was to keep the money for him, that's why he was bad treated.
What was he keeping it for? Does it have some intrinsic value? Or is it only valuable in relation to other things that it is used to buy? Are you now saying that money is actually useful?

Quote:
You are a servant of the 1% who'll have 99% of all wealth by 2016, next year.
You could always have the djinns snap their fingers and redistribute the wealth.
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 05:05 PM   #228
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
If it is as you say, that money should be circulated. And that someone would go to hell for not circulating money. Why do you advocate for completely removing money from society?
Money circulating is the samething to not use it.

Quote:
Secondly, the parable you posted says nothing about someone going to hell simply for hiding money. You have misunderstood the parable and now you are backpeddling since you painted yourself into a corner.
Hiding or not sharing is the samething and Obama said that he'll rise your income tax, isn't that a good idea?
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 05:16 PM   #229
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money circulating is the samething to not use it.
No it's not.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Hiding or not sharing is the same thing and Obama said that he'll rise your income tax, isn't that a good idea?
Raise taxes for what? A lot of tax money is wasted on useless projects and entitlements.

Last edited by Joecool; 21st January 2015 at 05:18 PM.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 05:24 PM   #230
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
[quote=Joecool;10434286]No it's not.[quote]

Yes it is


Quote:
Raise taxes for what? A lot of tax money is wasted on useless projects and entitlements.
Because when you rise income tax of rich and lower income tax of poors, you redistribute the money and it the samething of not using it, and this is what we should do.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 05:25 PM   #231
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 27,918
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Money circulating is the samething to not use it.
What a load of codswallop. You still haven't found any rational arguments to make?

Quote:
Hiding or not sharing is the samething and Obama said that he'll rise your income tax, isn't that a good idea?
So hiding money and circulating money are the same thing? Only weird religious arguments are that inane.
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 05:27 PM   #232
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 27,918
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Because when you rise income tax of rich and lower income tax of poors, you redistribute the money and it the samething of not using it, and this is what we should do.
And now redistributing money is the same thing as not using it at all? Does this remind you of the parable you didn't understand before you used it and proved yourself wrong?
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 06:00 PM   #233
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
[quote=Gaetan;10434298][quote=Joecool;10434286]No it's not.
Quote:
Yes it is
You said money circulating is the same thing as not using it. Your statement is redundant.

Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
Because when you rise income tax of rich and lower income tax of poors, you redistribute the money and it the same thing of not using it, and this is what we should do.
Sorry, redistributing money is not at all the same thing as not using money at all. Redistributing as you say, is taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

Not having money at all would be taking from the rich and the poor.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 08:20 PM   #234
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
[quote=Joecool;10434368][quote=Gaetan;10434298]
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
No it's not.

You said money circulating is the same thing as not using it. Your statement is redundant.



Sorry, redistributing money is not at all the same thing as not using money at all. Redistributing as you say, is taking from the rich and giving to the poor.

Not having money at all would be taking from the rich and the poor.
If everyone has the same amount of money: When he pays for the work of others and when he is paid for his work is the same it is stupid to use money and useless. It is just to give from one hand and take back from the other. When you give 10 dollars to a fellow and take back from that fellow 10 dollar, it is useless to do that, i don't understand why you can't understand that, that's easy to figure out. This is not the purpose of money: Money is made to have a small amount of rich, like at the biginning, crual kings and dictators and their bad hierarchy to dominate the majority and it didn't change.

Last edited by Gaetan; 21st January 2015 at 08:25 PM.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 21st January 2015, 10:13 PM   #235
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 15,987
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post

If everyone has the same amount of money: When he pays for the work of others and when he is paid for his work is the same it is stupid to use money and useless. It is just to give from one hand and take back from the other. When you give 10 dollars to a fellow and take back from that fellow 10 dollar, it is useless to do that, i don't understand why you can't understand that, that's easy to figure out. This is not the purpose of money: Money is made to have a small amount of rich, like at the biginning, crual kings and dictators and their bad hierarchy to dominate the majority and it didn't change.
You are over simplifying the transaction. If I get a chest infection and pay a doctor 50 bucks to diagnose it, and later the doctor gets a computer virus and pays me 50 bucks to fix it, the net money position is zero. But that is not the net actual position. The doctors PC is fixed and I have my diagnosis. I could pick a different doctor, though, and the doctor could pick a different computer expert.

In your imaginary no money scenario, I would first have to find a doctor who had already got a computer virus and was willing to exchange the fixing of same for a diagnosis of my chest infection. I would have to bear my undiagnosed condition until I found such a doctor and would then have no choice but to have that doctor diagnose my condition regardless of whether that doctor was any good.

Seems to me a pretty poor way of selecting a medical professional, or any other professional for that matter. I am willing to bet you don't do this yourself in real life because you cannot plausibly believe the ideas you describe here.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?

Last edited by abaddon; 21st January 2015 at 10:14 PM. Reason: Fix the borked quote tags
abaddon is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2015, 12:31 AM   #236
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
If everyone has the same amount of money: When he pays for the work of others and when he is paid for his work is the same it is stupid to use money and useless. It is just to give from one hand and take back from the other. When you give 10 dollars to a fellow and take back from that fellow 10 dollar, it is useless to do that, i don't understand why you can't understand that, that's easy to figure out. This is not the purpose of money: Money is made to have a small amount of rich, like at the biginning, crual kings and dictators and their bad hierarchy to dominate the majority and it didn't change.
Your idea might work if you are exchanging an apple for an orange. But bigger tickets items would be impossible. Say I wanted a car, I would exchange 12,500 apples. I would be hard pressed to find that many apples and the guy who made the car would likely not have any use for so many apples.

It's much easier to have money, which can be stored and used when I need it. It also makes exchange easier because I can now save and buy big items like a car and it's much more convenient than exchanging things without money.

Redistribution is just a way to create a lazy entitlement society which is what the US is sadly becoming.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2015, 06:50 AM   #237
RoboTimbo
Hostile Nanobacon
 
RoboTimbo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Prosperity, AZ
Posts: 27,918
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
When you give 10 dollars to a fellow and take back from that fellow 10 dollar, it is useless to do that, i don't understand why you can't understand that, that's easy to figure out.
I don't give 10 dollars to a fellow and he gives me back 10 dollars. My employer gives me money and I give my employer my time, knowledge, expertise and effort. I give money to Cabela's and they give me a nice Hillebrand tent. Cabela's doesn't need my time, knowledge, expertise or effort. My employer doesn't need a tent.

Is there a reason you can't understand that?

Quote:
This is not the purpose of money: Money is made to have a small amount of rich, like at the biginning, crual kings and dictators and their bad hierarchy to dominate the majority and it didn't change.
No, that's religion.
RoboTimbo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2015, 05:17 PM   #238
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
Your idea might work if you are exchanging an apple for an orange. But bigger tickets items would be impossible. Say I wanted a car, I would exchange 12,500 apples. I would be hard pressed to find that many apples and the guy who made the car would likely not have any use for so many apples.

It's much easier to have money, which can be stored and used when I need it. It also makes exchange easier because I can now save and buy big items like a car and it's much more convenient than exchanging things without money.

Redistribution is just a way to create a lazy entitlement society which is what the US is sadly becoming.
You still don't understand, it is not necessary to trade with the same guy, the 10 dollars you pay can come back from a different fellow, it comes to the samething.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2015, 05:59 PM   #239
Joecool
Master Poster
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 2,081
Originally Posted by Gaetan View Post
You still don't understand, it is not necessary to trade with the same guy, the 10 dollars you pay can come back from a different fellow, it comes to the samething.
So I can go and buy something on amazon.com and send the bill to you?

Anytime a purchase is made, the seller gets paid. If I buy a car, I would need to have several thousand people each pay $10 so I can have the car?

You suggested system with no money or redistributed money is a failure and will not work.
Joecool is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 22nd January 2015, 06:40 PM   #240
Gaetan
Master Poster
 
Gaetan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 2,463
Originally Posted by Joecool View Post
So I can go and buy something on amazon.com and send the bill to you?

Anytime a purchase is made, the seller gets paid. If I buy a car, I would need to have several thousand people each pay $10 so I can have the car?

You suggested system with no money or redistributed money is a failure and will not work.
You still doesn't understand, at the end of the year or life the money you gained is equal to the money you paid.
Gaetan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Economics, Business and Finance

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:30 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.