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Old 29th July 2014, 12:33 AM   #1
Lukas1986
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Out of Africa Theory Officially Debunked?

Quote:
Scientific evidence refuting the theory of modern humanity’s African genesis is common knowledge among those familiar with the most recent scientific papers on the human Genome, Mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosomes. Regrettably, within mainstream press and academia circles, there seems to be a conspicuous – and dare we say it – deliberate vacuum when it comes to reporting news of these recent studies and their obvious implications.
Taken from: http://atlanteangardens.blogspot.com...-debunked.html

There is also the paper mentioned which he uses as evidence.

What do you think of this?? I know the page is woo but what do you think of this "new" research?

Last edited by Lukas1986; 29th July 2014 at 12:35 AM.
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Old 29th July 2014, 01:46 AM   #2
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This is the paper. I have no idea if this is a reputable site or not; it doesn't appear to be peer-reviewed.
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Old 29th July 2014, 02:53 AM   #3
Lukas1986
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
This is the paper. I have no idea if this is a reputable site or not; it doesn't appear to be peer-reviewed.
Thanks. I am now even more skeptical of this. Their reference page is quoting mostly their own literature which they both have written - the authors names pop too often in the references. However I will look into it more deeply later on.
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:11 AM   #4
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Interesting comments on that blog:
Quote:
We won't get the truth until "project white-European extinction' is complete. Amazing how such obvious hate is glossed over under the guise of being something good. PC = pure crap
Quote:
The out of Africa lie was not a theory but full on Jewish propaganda.
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:14 AM   #5
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http://atlanteangardens.blogspot.com...of-africa.html

Need I say more?
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:41 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
That some Atlantis loons quote the paper doesn't mean the paper is without merit. Whether the paper is sound is way beyond my knowledge though.
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:45 AM   #7
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:51 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That some Atlantis loons quote the paper doesn't mean the paper is without merit. Whether the paper is sound is way beyond my knowledge though.
True, but irrelevant.

My point was that the blog itself is not worth reading.

If the study has merit, then it will be (or has been) cited by people who are reputable, so looking at it on that blog is useless, since it only gives that blog unneeded hits (sorry for that).
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Old 29th July 2014, 04:29 AM   #9
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You are right, the article is woo. Quite typical for racist propaganda. They took an exciting bit of new discoveries and twisted them into a woo perversion.

On the other hand, the Out of Africa (Recent African origin of modern humans) model is undergoing a big change right now. Not in the way that page describes, but certainly it must be modified to include many tenets from the competing Multiregional origin of modern humans model.

What's the difference? The Multiregional origin of modern humans model varies from the Recent African origin of modern humans in that humans as a species are described as differing regionally through clinal variation, but never enough to prevent interbreeding of populations, and that many "waves" of archaic human forms have left Africa and vice versa fairly continuously throughout the Pleistocene. Thus through genetic drift, gene flow and selection we have always been one global species with regional variations since Homo erectus.

Both the Multiregional origin of modern humans and the Recent African origin of modern humans models have problems and they are both tending toward an integrated version that is a little of both, mostly Out of Africa, but with more Multiregional than previously thought.
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Old 29th July 2014, 04:37 AM   #10
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatole_Klyosov
http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/

Klyosov is no fake. Whether he is correct in this I don't know. It's a bit of a hobby horse of his.

What little I know suggests- Humans are African, but the last major move into Europe after the Toba event , may not have originated in Africa, but from a population that left Africa twice as long ago and formed what looks rather like the old "Aryan" race.

I can see how this might be interpreted to suit certain pre existing views...

Last edited by Soapy Sam; 29th July 2014 at 04:45 AM.
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Old 29th July 2014, 04:43 AM   #11
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This is being flogged around the 'net, so you'll probably run into it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

And twenty years from now some 'foon will find it and go "Hey! Did you guys see this?"
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Old 29th July 2014, 04:52 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
This is being flogged around the 'net, so you'll probably run into it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

And twenty years from now some 'foon will find it and go "Hey! Did you guys see this?"
We must develop automated AI Web Crawlers that remove the diseased parts. Antibodies of the Interwebz!
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Old 29th July 2014, 05:01 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
This is the paper. I have no idea if this is a reputable site or not; it doesn't appear to be peer-reviewed.
There's a thread about this publisher: http://www.internationalskeptics.com....php?p=5196020

It"s on Beall's list of dubious publishers, mostly because it is a vanity press for Chinese researchers.
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Old 29th July 2014, 05:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
We must develop automated AI Web Crawlers that remove the diseased parts. Antibodies of the Interwebz!
If someone would invent a system to remove stupid from 'net that would be great.
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:03 AM   #15
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Modern homo sapiens came out of africa, despite what some may wish.
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:06 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Modern homo sapiens came out of africa, despite what some may wish.
The article in the OP is, IIRC, rampagingly racist. The agenda is obvious, "I didn't come from no jigaboo!"
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:16 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
If someone would invent a system to remove stupid from 'net that would be great.
But it wouldn't leave much.
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:17 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
The article in the OP is, IIRC, rampagingly racist. The agenda is obvious, "I didn't come from no jigaboo!"

This is correct!

We don't need to refute it do we?

Last edited by Peter May; 29th July 2014 at 08:18 AM.
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:19 AM   #19
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We keep seeing the same recurring theme in papers like this:

"After much study and careful research, we can finally drive the last nail in the coffin of that whole science thing."
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:23 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
The article in the OP is, IIRC, rampagingly racist. The agenda is obvious, "I didn't come from no jigaboo!"
One of the articles on the website, from 1928, is hilarious.
Quote:
Fifty thousand years ago, or more, before the early cave dwellers of Spain had inscribed their records in cavern paintings, and of course long before the first rudiments of civilization appeared in Egypt, a small craft sailed forth from the continent that then existed in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. It sailed into the rising sun, manned by a crew of blond sailors whose mil-white skin and blue eyes marked them as natives of the Land of Mu, the birthplace of mankind. After sailing for “a moon’s journey” (twenty-eight days) they sighted land – land which we now know as North America, but nameless then with no trace of human beings.
http://atlanteangardens.blogspot.com...years-ago.html
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:44 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Lukas1986 View Post
Taken from: http://atlanteangardens.blogspot.com...-debunked.html

There is also the paper mentioned which he uses as evidence.

What do you think of this?? I know the page is woo but what do you think of this "new" research?

Tell it to Richard Leakey, et al.
Write to them and pur forward your hypothesis, see how long it lasts!
See also http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/leakeydiag.html

If this does not impress you........

Last edited by Peter May; 29th July 2014 at 08:47 AM.
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Old 29th July 2014, 09:01 AM   #22
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I believe that none of the current theories question that we came out of Africa and that we are the descendants of the ancestors of current day chimps and people. The only question is when we came out of Africa, and did later migrations interbreed with earlier migrations. It now looks as if early human evolution was a mix-and-match of several different migrations interbreeding with one another, some of their gene alleles dying off, and some of their genes alleles surviving in different parts of the world. Cold resistance versions of genes really helped in populations in the colder parts of the world.

There is much, much more commonality in the DNAs of people now in Europe, Asia, and Africa than any differences. So little it is really only of academic interest. I doubt it would even be noticed by a beings from another planet: it certainly would be considered trivial.

Can't you just sense the frustration of the racists that Europeans, Africans, and Asians are very, very close relatives and that any genetic differences between us are very slight? Think: my ancestors grew up in Africa and probably had dark skin! I find that fascinating and causes me pride, even if my immediate family came from Poland. Why does that bother some people so much?
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Old 29th July 2014, 09:05 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
"Fifty thousand years ago, or more, before the early cave dwellers of Spain had inscribed their records in cavern paintings, and of course long before the first rudiments of civilization appeared in Egypt, a small craft sailed forth from the continent that then existed in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. It sailed into the rising sun, manned by a crew of blond sailors whose mil-white skin and blue eyes marked them as natives of the Land of Mu, the birthplace of mankind. After sailing for “a moon’s journey” (twenty-eight days) they sighted land – land which we now know as North America, but nameless then with no trace of human beings."
Obviously they weren't YECs.
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Old 29th July 2014, 10:58 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
One of the articles on the website, from 1928, is hilarious.http://atlanteangardens.blogspot.com...years-ago.html
Quote:
. . . manned by a crew of blond sailors whose mil-white skin and blue eyes . . .
As someone who almost qualifies (the mil-white skin and blue eyes part) let me assure you that all those sailors would have died of terminal sunburn before they got across the first hundred miles of the Pacific unless Mu had invented a sunscreen with an SPF of 100.
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Old 29th July 2014, 11:32 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
This is being flogged around the 'net, so you'll probably run into it again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again and again

And twenty years from now some 'foon will find it and go "Hey! Did you guys see this?"
It was in the Daily Fail last year, IIRR.

Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
As someone who almost qualifies (the mil-white skin and blue eyes part) let me assure you that all those sailors would have died of terminal sunburn before they got across the first hundred miles of the Pacific unless Mu had invented a sunscreen with an SPF of 100.
I'm having flashbacks to Turtledove's Sam Cartsen.
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Old 29th July 2014, 01:29 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Peter May View Post
This is correct!

We don't need to refute it do we?
So what do you think of it?
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Old 29th July 2014, 01:40 PM   #27
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Racist rubbish !
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Old 29th July 2014, 02:59 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatole_Klyosov
http://aklyosov.home.comcast.net/~aklyosov/

Klyosov is no fake. Whether he is correct in this I don't know. It's a bit of a hobby horse of his.

What little I know suggests- Humans are African, but the last major move into Europe after the Toba event , may not have originated in Africa, but from a population that left Africa twice as long ago and formed what looks rather like the old "Aryan" race.

I can see how this might be interpreted to suit certain pre existing views...
he is still wrong, every date he gives genetically and linguistically are all after 15.000 BP, and except for his own research, only he states that the Europeans drifted away at 150,000 BP, which just happen to be teh time that archaic homo sapiens spaiens arises in Africa.

So he is wrong. He evem argues mostly that the european proto ancestors arose 15,000 BP, which is after the diasporara from africa, he also seems clueless and wrong about what he pretends to refute, he is neither original nor accurate..

http://www.academia.edu/4222630/DNA_...Ancient_Europe
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:17 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
I believe that none of the current theories question that we came out of Africa and that we are the descendants of the ancestors of current day chimps and people. The only question is when we came out of Africa, and did later migrations interbreed with earlier migrations. It now looks as if early human evolution was a mix-and-match of several different migrations interbreeding with one another, some of their gene alleles dying off, and some of their genes alleles surviving in different parts of the world. Cold resistance versions of genes really helped in populations in the colder parts of the world.

There is much, much more commonality in the DNAs of people now in Europe, Asia, and Africa than any differences. So little it is really only of academic interest. I doubt it would even be noticed by a beings from another planet: it certainly would be considered trivial.

Can't you just sense the frustration of the racists that Europeans, Africans, and Asians are very, very close relatives and that any genetic differences between us are very slight? Think: my ancestors grew up in Africa and probably had dark skin! I find that fascinating and causes me pride, even if my immediate family came from Poland. Why does that bother some people so much?
Because some people have nothing else to feel proud of (particularly if they are inbred, stupid and mean) so they have to find something to look down on. In reality, that would be flatworms (though those can actually learn and pass on knowledge so.......) so they pick on some kind of outlier to be it. Or for short: some group smarter than they but with some features they claim make that group inferior. They (the i.s.m's )tend to enjoy congregating together, love to wear funny attention getting targetable outfits*, and often follow some religion whose beliefs always seem to somehow lead to necessary violence towards not-them.





* for those who have not heard this before, I find certain groups tend to shock and then laugh in true heartfelt pleasure as I make this point: "You know, I have to admit I really like those klan outfits (shock!!!). Yep I sure do. Have you ever noticed they have a cross design over the heart on the robe and another cross over the forehead on the hood...Makes a fine target don't you think !?"(smiles and a few shocked looks)"Yep I think it is wonderful and kind of them to help good people's aim!!!"(Laughter....)
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:23 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
As someone who almost qualifies (the mil-white skin and blue eyes part) let me assure you that all those sailors would have died of terminal sunburn before they got across the first hundred miles of the Pacific unless Mu had invented a sunscreen with an SPF of 100.
Does anybody know if they meant milk-white skin there - that would only be appropriate for people from a very low sunlight receiving group. I would think peoples from the implied areas would have had to be dark/er skinned by a good deal.........I ask as I have no idea what color mil-white is. Military spec. white maybe????
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Old 29th July 2014, 03:48 PM   #31
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I might have misread, but isn't there some anti-jewish sentiment there too? I mean, there'd almost have to be, right? They have pretty much everyone except themselves (because I think it's safe to say the "author" of that "blog" is a white male) cut from his human family tree, so why not jewish people (or rather, semitic people, because surely religion (or lack thereof) isn't going to stop them hating people) as well, just for good measure?

And am I a masochist for getting enjoyment out of reading the crazy?
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Old 29th July 2014, 04:23 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
And am I a masochist for getting enjoyment out of reading the crazy?
Nah, I read the Fox News webpage too.
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Old 29th July 2014, 06:25 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
Does anybody know if they meant milk-white skin there - that would only be appropriate for people from a very low sunlight receiving group. I would think peoples from the implied areas would have had to be dark/er skinned by a good deal.........I ask as I have no idea what color mil-white is. Military spec. white maybe????
I assumed it was MILSPEC. Similar to Pantone 11-0601 TCX Bright White.
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Old 29th July 2014, 08:33 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Soapy Sam View Post
A bit of a fake in the sense that he is not an expert in genetics:
Quote:
Anatole A. Klyosov is a Russian scientist born Kaliningrad region, Russia, 20 November 1946, and now living in America. He is known for his work in physical chemistry, enzyme catalysis, biomedical sciences, industrial biochemistry[1] and for mathematical/statistical/ computer application on DNA genealogy studies.
and published these latest papers in the journal Advances in Anthropology rather than a journal on generics where it could be better peer-reviewed - not that anthropologists are ignorant of genetics, they are just generally not experts.
As already noted here, Advances in Anthropology is quite dubious as a scientific journal.

ETA: Single author papers are should always be taken as dubious (the latest of the two reconsideration of "Out of Africa" papers on his Wikipedia article).

Last edited by Reality Check; 29th July 2014 at 08:44 PM.
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Old 30th July 2014, 10:35 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
Nah, I read the Fox News webpage too.
See, I don't. I like my crazy from independent sites that are genuinely in the minority, instead of feigning minority.
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Old 30th July 2014, 10:44 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Bram Kaandorp View Post
See, I don't. I like my crazy from independent sites that are genuinely in the minority, instead of feigning minority.
But I'm a Goebbels Scholar, so it's kind of required.
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Old 30th July 2014, 10:49 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Gawdzilla View Post
If someone would invent a system to remove stupid from 'net that would be great.
At first, I thought this would be impossible, but after I slept on it, I realized one could write a clever script that would at least keep any more stupid from being posted.

I'm deploying it now, so henceforth we shouldn't see any more stu-
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Old 30th July 2014, 01:01 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by kennyc View Post
We must develop automated AI Web Crawlers that remove the diseased parts. Antibodies of the Interwebz!
But that way the Interwebz would die of some autoimmune disease. Or electronic cannibalism.
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Old 31st July 2014, 10:30 PM   #39
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Thanks you all for your thoughts about this.. Thank you all very much.
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Old 2nd August 2014, 11:30 PM   #40
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Dienekes Blog is a good site for discussion of genetic anthropology. (The link is to one of the hits when you search the site for discussion of the Klyosov-Rozhanskii paper.)

Another good blog for such discussions is http://www.anthrogenica.com/
Both of these sites suffer the problem of TOO MUCH information; searching them you'll spend hours in detours! (eupedia.com is another site that will turn up in searches. I do NOT recommend it.)

The time estimates in both the Klyosov paper and the Dienekes link above are too late. I think it is now generally accepted that DE and CF Y-haplogroups split from each other about 85,000 BC. B split off much earlier.
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