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Old 21st September 2014, 08:58 AM   #1
Lukas1986
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ISHAR a library for mind/body woo

Quote:
PROBLEM:

Many Institutions and proclaimed 'skeptic organizations' refuse to acknowledge or accept ongoing scientific research on integrated approaches. They disseminate negative and erroneous information about these healing methods that makes it harder for researchers, clinicians and people like YOU to get accurate information.

SOLUTION:

ISHAR will gather all leading perspectives on each topic covered, combined with all relevant research, and all cultural practices. Since ISHAR is a library that focuses on holistic models of mind/body health, our archive itself will be holistic, fusing science, culture, perspectives, and policy into ONE library for ALL.



PROBLEM:

New research and study is happening faster than the online discussion can keep up with. Many in the mind/body community - from doctors to professors to practitioners - are citing the many problems with Wikipedia around mind/body topics. Additionally, too many questionable materials are being published on the internet, both pro and con. Researchers have to scour through medical archives in too many different locations and are left unsure of what else is out there. This, we believe, has led to a cultural divide where there should be none. Integrative health, yoga, meditation and mind body practices are now the mainstream, and 40% of US hospitals have integrated practices.

SOLUTION:
ISHAR literally is designed as a 21st Century Library. Information online - including online discussions, Wikipedia, social networking sites, and community collective curating - is a novelty that ISHAR will have which the Library of Alexandria didn't.
Taken from: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/let-s-raise-ishar

More info: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/let-s-raise-ishar

Also many woo proponents are helping like Bernardo Kastrup:

http://www.skeptiko-forum.com/thread...ng-ishar.1302/

People who support it:

Quote:
Making it easy to find resources is important in the world of science. The scientific/academic world pays close attention to what studies are cited in other studies. Research is deemed important if it has been cited a lot. But you can’t cite it if you don’t even know it exists or can’t find it even if you do. A lot of frontier science doesn’t show up on every mainstream database. Sometimes it’s “conveniently” left out. That’s why a small army of researchers and leading thinkers support this project including:



Deepak Chopra, MD
Paul Mills, Ph D : Professor in Residence, UCSD
Shiva Ayyadurai, PhD MIT, Systems Engineer
William Bushell, Ph.D. Director of Research at Tibet HouseUS/The Menla Center, Medical Anthropology, MIT
Robert Thurman, PhD: President and Founder, Tibet House
Dean Ornish, MD: President and Founder, Preventive Medicine Research Institute
Menas Kafatos, Phd Schmid College of Science and Technology. Physics, Computational Science and Engineering, School of Computational Sciences
Lisa Miller, Ph.D. Professor and Director of Clinical Psychology Director, Spirituality and Mind-Body Institute. Columbia University, Teachers College
Marilyn Schlitz, Fellow and President Emeritus, Institute of Noetic Sciences, Senior Scientist at California Pacific Medical Center Research Institute.
Dr. Robert Schwarz, PhD Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology
Daniel Vicario, M.D., Medical Director, San Diego Cancer Center. Director, Integrative Oncology Program.
Julia Mossbridge, PhD Research Associate, Department of Psychology, Northwestern University and Inventor of Choice Compass.
Kate Noble, PhD Clinical and Counseling. Professor of Consciousness, University of Washington.
Dr. Anirban Bandyopadhyay, PhD Senior Researcher, NIMS, Adjunct Asst. Professor Michigan Technological University, Advanced Scanning Probe Microscopy group, Advanced Nano Characterisation Center (ANCC), Massachusetts Institute of Technology Institute of Medical and Engineering Science.
Subhash Kak. Regents Professor, Department of Computer Science Oklahoma State University
Dr Jack Sarfatti, PhD: Theoretical physicist
Neil D. Theise, MD Professor of Pathology and of Medicine at the Beth Israel Medical Center of Albert Einstein College of Medicine.
Allan Leslie Combs, Ph.D. Doshi Professor of Consciousness Studies. Director of The Center for Consciousness Studies at the California Institute of Integral Studies. He is also the President of the Society for Consciousness Studies and Director of Consciousness Studies master’s degree program at the Graduate Institute of Connecticut. Professor Emeritus at the University of North Carolina-Asheville .
Dr. Jeffrey Martin, Center for the Study of Non Symbolic Consciousness
Shamini Jain, Phd. Assistant Professor, Psychiatry, UC San Diego; Chair, Research Development Committee, UC San Diego Center for Integrative Medicine
Meg Jordan, PhD, RN Clinical Medical Anthropologist, Chair and Professor, Integrative Health Studies, California Institute of Integral Studies
Francois Demange, MA Anthropology, Indigenous Medicine
James Fallon, PhD Professor of Psychiatry and Neurobiology, UC Irvine
Ester Konigsberg, MD, CCFP Consortium of Academic Health Centers for Integrative Medicine
Source: http://realitysandwich.com/223281/is...body-research/

Again woo believers are uniting again. Are they so desperate??

Last edited by Lukas1986; 21st September 2014 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 22nd September 2014, 02:23 PM   #2
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Lightbulb

Originally Posted by Lukas1986 View Post
Taken from:

Also many woo proponents are helping like Bernardo Kastrup:


Again woo believers are uniting again. Are they so desperate??

Hi, I work with ISHAR, and there seems to be some confusion. We're not "woo-believers," we're a repository of information & sources, the vast majority of which are peer-reviewed academic journals, whose purpose is to help determine what the evidence actually supports/discounts. Integrative Studies is our focus, not our advocacy.
I'd be happy to discuss anything about ISHAR here, answer any questions or just chat about your perceptions. Hope to hear from you!
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Old 22nd September 2014, 10:25 PM   #3
Lukas1986
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline
Hi, I work with ISHAR, and there seems to be some confusion. We're not "woo-believers," we're a repository of information & sources, the vast majority of which are peer-reviewed academic journals, whose purpose is to help determine what the evidence actually supports/discounts. Integrative Studies is our focus, not our advocacy.
I'd be happy to discuss anything about ISHAR here, answer any questions or just chat about your perceptions. Hope to hear from you!
Sure..

This shows you are not woo believers(sarcasm):

Quote:
Many Institutions and proclaimed 'skeptic organizations' refuse to acknowledge or accept ongoing scientific research on integrated approaches. They disseminate negative and erroneous information about these healing methods that makes it harder for researchers, clinicians and people like YOU to get accurate information.
Also that among your main ranks have Deepak Chopra is a very un-woo sign along with other people like that..

Also among yours peer-reviewed literature has even woo magazines among them by a quick look on it:

Quote:
Publication
Integrative Cancer Therapies
Taken from: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/let-s-raise-ishar

Also the whole fund raising is quite strange to me and it looks like the whole ISHAR site is just to get money from people because you ask only for a donation 20 dollars:

Quote:
We are asking everyone to donate $20.00 each - the price of ONE YOGA CLASS - to build the largest and most credible resource online for the mind/body phenomenon. We need to raise $50,000.00 to launch the digital library off of our current archive of 10,000 entries and expand it to 500,000.
Taken from: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/let-s-raise-ishar

However besides wanting 50,000 dollars. You also want 10 dollars for some Sam Spot prize, Ishar honorarium 20 dollars, 50 dollars for supervisor circle, 250 for Ishar group dinner, 500 for institution partner if I got it right because it is strange written and in the end the site claims this so I think there will be more donations waiting ahead no?:

Quote:
We need gazillions of dollars in reality, but from the community, we are only asking to help us raise enough funds for the digital library itself, at a cost of $50,000.00 and we will handle the rest.
Taken from: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/let-s-raise-ishar

So I think its more like a bottomless pit for money from this description and it looks like that.

One thing which is funny is that Deepak Chopra who supports this thing does not want to contribute? He even promised a million dollars to skeptics in his challenge but cannot give ISHAR 50,000.00? when he has a million just like that?:

http://doubtfulnews.com/2014/06/chee...ous-challenge/

Last edited by Lukas1986; 22nd September 2014 at 11:05 PM.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:34 AM   #4
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Also that among your main ranks have Deepak Chopra is a very un-woo sign along with other people like that..

Also among yours peer-reviewed literature has even woo magazines among them by a quick look on it:
...
One thing which is funny is that Deepak Chopra who supports this thing does not want to contribute? He even promised a million dollars to skeptics in his challenge but cannot give ISHAR 50,000.00? when he has a million just like that?:
ISHAR is running an Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign to raise enough money to build a website so that our visitors won't have to pay any fees to view our content. Having little perks is not unusual for Indiegogo, nor is accepting small donations. We've had very large contributors, and some people who could only donate $1. We're grateful to them all. Deepak Chopra has been very generous with his support, but we do not expect or want him to have to pay in full for every nonprofit he associates with.

As far as "woo" goes, the entire point of ISHAR is to have a neutral site that freely centralizes and cross-references research about Integrative Studies. There is some excellent research done in Integrative Cancer Therapies, just like there are some faulty methodologies cited in Nature. While we do not advocate any one journal, we certainly do not discriminate against them due to researching topics outside the mainstream.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 08:08 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
...
As far as "woo" goes, the entire point of ISHAR is to have a neutral site that freely centralizes and cross-references research about Integrative Studies.
...
What a crock. The entire point of ISHAR is to give baseless new-age claptrap the pretense of equal footing with established science.

I am reminded that there is actually a name for alternative medicine that has been proven effective. We call it medicine.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 09:54 AM   #6
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ISHAR hope it fails.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 10:03 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post

As far as "woo" goes, the entire point of ISHAR is to have a neutral site that freely centralizes and cross-references research about Integrative Studies. There is some excellent research done in Integrative Cancer Therapies, just like there are some faulty methodologies cited in Nature. While we do not advocate any one journal, we certainly do not discriminate against them due to researching topics outside the mainstream.
Reality is not neutral.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 10:26 AM   #8
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Indeed, and leaving any contrary word out is certainly not neutral.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 10:27 AM   #9
Lukas1986
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline
ISHAR is running an Indiegogo crowdfunding campaign to raise enough money to build a website so that our visitors won't have to pay any fees to view our content.
Geez 50, 000 dollars plus some bonuses is not that a lot of money for one website? Common you will have there also World of Warcraft there or what? I also doubt that people will not pay any more money even wikipedia to work needs money from time to time as donations or will the ISHAR staff pay all the running costs for eternity(or how long the site will be up)?

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
Having little perks is not unusual for Indiegogo, nor is accepting small donations. We've had very large contributors, and some people who could only donate $1. We're grateful to them all.
Of course you are in the World Financial Crisis everyone is happy for a free dollar so what is your point here?? It is still receiving money and thats it? It does not change that your project wants a lot of money to start. I just hope that some will of it go also to those who are for it that means everyone on the list I posted here because I have a feeling that it is again just a project to fill someones pockets as always it is not in the woo business?

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
Deepak Chopra has been very generous with his support, but we do not expect or want him to have to pay in full for every nonprofit he associates with.
You missed the point. Yes Deepak Chopra can do what he wants but I think he is supporting this for his own gain and nothing more at least to boost up New Age woo on the Internet.

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
As far as "woo" goes, the entire point of ISHAR is to have a neutral site that freely centralizes and cross-references research about Integrative Studies.
Neutral? People who do Integrative Studies are neutral? Really?? So a priest of the Catholic Church is also neutral?? The whole ISHAR from what I read is just a answer to wikipedia because many of your studies did not pass wikipedia standards in the first place.

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
There is some excellent research done in Integrative Cancer Therapies, just like there are some faulty methodologies cited in Nature.
Thanks for showing your bias.

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
While we do not advocate any one journal, we certainly do not discriminate against them due to researching topics outside the mainstream.
No? Really?? What is then this?:

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
There is some excellent research done in Integrative Cancer Therapies, just like there are some faulty methodologies cited in Nature.
Here you showed your bias against Nature and boosting up the journal Integrative Cancer Therapies that is has valid research. In short Nature has errors but Integrative Cancer Therapies has excellent research done if this is what is ISHAR going to be then it will quite biased and a lot of woo coming from it.

Last edited by Lukas1986; 23rd September 2014 at 10:28 AM.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 10:35 AM   #10
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50 grand and I'll do it. Here's my plan:
1. Have a search box, where Doctor Woo can ask which cure is better, or whatev.
2. A nice dissolve effect to an elegant picture of Deepak, with a stethoscope and white coat, saying, "That will totally work!" Plus something from the Deepak generator.

I think it'll fly.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 01:08 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
As far as "woo" goes, the entire point of ISHAR is to have a neutral site that freely centralizes and cross-references research about Integrative Studies.

Doesn't the existence of PubMed make this a little redundant, at least as far as medically related subjects are concerned?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 02:15 PM   #12
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Doesn't the existence of PubMed make this a little redundant, at least as far as medically related subjects are concerned?
That's an excellent question. While PubMed does contain a fantastic wealth of sources (many of which we reference), ISHAR aims to make access easier and more wide-ranging than PubMed. One, we don't require a dedicated login to access our content, unlike PubMed, and two, our content also contains works from JSTOR, various university research programs and ongoing clinical trials. Additionally, ISHAR is not a medical database, though we house information on medical articles we also focus on cultural anthropology, neuroscience and philosophy.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 02:19 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
That's an excellent question. While PubMed does contain a fantastic wealth of sources (many of which we reference), ISHAR aims to make access easier and more wide-ranging than PubMed. One, we don't require a dedicated login to access our content, unlike PubMed, and two, our content also contains works from JSTOR, various university research programs and ongoing clinical trials. Additionally, ISHAR is not a medical database, though we house information on medical articles we also focus on cultural anthropology, neuroscience and philosophy.

So, copyright is not an issue for you?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 02:34 PM   #14
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What's the matter?

Are the standards of the National_Center_for_Complementary_and_Alternative_ MedicineWP too rigorous?

The NCCAM was established by Woos, staffed by WooWoos and conducts research by WooWooWoos into all aspects of WooWooWooWooism.

It has been funded by American taxpayers since 1991 to the tune of tens of millions of dollars.

Being held to the standards of medical research seems to have slowed progress down considerably as the results to date appear to consist of studies that show something "might be interesting" and that more "research is required". Given another quarter century I suppose that one of its researchers might accidentally stumble across a treatment that is actually useful but the chances seem somewhat slim.

In the meantime Dr Chopra should read and follow the advice of his dear friend Dr Roberto Kaplan in his book Seeing Without Glasses: A Step-By-Step Approach To Improving Eyesight Naturally and toss his designers spectacles away.

It's a quantum thing.

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Last edited by Gord_in_Toronto; 23rd September 2014 at 02:36 PM. Reason: Added the Flying Pig.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 03:18 PM   #15
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So, copyright is not an issue for you?
Copyright is a very serious issue to us, but the material we include is all extensively cited and either free to share or accessible through partnerships we've established.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 03:27 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
Copyright is a very serious issue to us, but the material we include is all extensively cited and either free to share or accessible through partnerships we've established.
You specifically mentioned including content from JSTOR and PubMed. Are you now claiming you have established partnership arrangements with JSTOR and PubMed that allows you to include their intellectual property?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 03:41 PM   #17
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LUKAS1986:
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Geez 50, 000 dollars plus some bonuses is not that a lot of money for one website? Common you will have there also World of Warcraft there or what? I also doubt that people will not pay any more money even wikipedia to work needs money from time to time as donations or will the ISHAR staff pay all the running costs for eternity(or how long the site will be up)?
$50k is not a lot of money to A) Build a website capable of housing tens of thousands of articles, videos and entries, B) Pay a livable wage to the staff that curate said content and run ISHAR and C) Account for permission rights, licensing and various fees. We will certainly accept donations in the future if someone is so inclined, but our top priorit is creating a free, public site.
Quote:
Of course you are in the World Financial Crisis everyone is happy for a free dollar so what is your point here?? It is still receiving money and thats it? It does not change that your project wants a lot of money to start. I just hope that some will of it go also to those who are for it that means everyone on the list I posted here because I have a feeling that it is again just a project to fill someones pockets as always it is not in the woo business?
I do not fully understand your issue on this point. Are you deriding our staff because they don't wish to work for free? We are a nonprofit and all of our fundraising/expenditures will eventually be public knowledge; you are free to critique our spending then, but I think you'll find it extremely frugal.
Quote:
You missed the point. Yes Deepak Chopra can do what he wants but I think he is supporting this for his own gain and nothing more at least to boost up New Age woo on the Internet.
I cannot speak to Deepak Chopra's intentions, but ISHAR has been placed under no content requirements in return for his support.
Quote:
Neutral? People who do Integrative Studies are neutral? Really?? So a priest of the Catholic Church is also neutral?? The whole ISHAR from what I read is just a answer to wikipedia because many of your studies did not pass wikipedia standards in the first place.
You are assuming that anyone affiliated WITH ISHAR must believe everything IN ISHAR. We house enormous amounts of medical research, theories, religious tracts and philosophical treatises. No one could believe in everything, as many of the world's ideas are contradictory. We employ the faithful & atheists, skeptics and believers.
Quote:
Thanks for showing your bias.
Quote:
No? Really?? What is then this?:
Quote:
Here you showed your bias against Nature and boosting up the journal Integrative Cancer Therapies that is has valid research. In short Nature has errors but Integrative Cancer Therapies has excellent research done if this is what is ISHAR going to be then it will quite biased and a lot of woo coming from it.
This seems a rather dramatic (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what I said. My point was that even peer-reviewed journals of high Impact Factor have a share of low-quality articles, and many journals of low Impact Factor have a share of high-quality articles. I am not denigrating Nature, but rather pointing out that there are methodologically sound studies that are being overlooked. We are not being scientifically rigorous if we discount all research that we don't already agree with.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 03:45 PM   #18
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ISHAR hope it fails.
Donn
Thank you for that. For my part, I hope you succeed at whatever you're working on. Unless you're working on making ISHAR fail. I do not wish you success in that.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 03:59 PM   #19
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This is curious:

Quote:
Our repository is in service to Wikipedia and any institution where knowledge is stored.
What does that first part mean?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 04:06 PM   #20
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Deepak that lying dolt again? Maybe Sam Harris can verbally wreck him back into the metaphysical hole he crawled out of.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 04:47 PM   #21
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Quote:
Quote:
Our repository is in service to Wikipedia and any institution where knowledge is stored.


What does that first part mean?
That means that ISHAR is collating its publicly accessible contents to provide to the Wikimedia Foundation as a mass source donation, as well as the fact that our sources include formatting for citation on Wikipedia. ISHAR respects Wikipedia's Pillars and will work to help provide sourcing, references and information to articles. Wikipedia is the world's most powerful database, and we want to help it expand while maintaining its ideals.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 04:52 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
That means that ISHAR is collating its publicly accessible contents to provide to the Wikimedia Foundation as a mass source donation, as well as the fact that our sources include formatting for citation on Wikipedia. ISHAR respects Wikipedia's Pillars and will work to help provide sourcing, references and information to articles. Wikipedia is the world's most powerful database, and we want to help it expand while maintaining its ideals.
Noteably non woo ideas.

If your looking for a safehaven for your quackery I'd suggest conservapedia
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Old 23rd September 2014, 05:13 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
Noteably non woo ideas.

If your looking for a safehaven for your quackery I'd suggest conservapedia
I said "ideals", not "ideas," but the point remains. In either case, objectively weighing evidence is key, and labeling entire fields of thought unacceptable to examine is the most rigid of orthodoxy.

I find it interesting that in these exchanges, I seem to be the one telling people on a skeptic's forum that nothing should be taken on faith and evidence should inform our decisions. I also find it interesting that I am being accused of quackery and having ill fortune wished upon me without anyone here having actually seen our content.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 05:49 PM   #24
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Quote:
You specifically mentioned including content from JSTOR and PubMed. Are you now claiming you have established partnership arrangements with JSTOR and PubMed that allows you to include their intellectual property?
We abide by all rules pertaining to JSTOR's intellectual property, which means that we can completely share some full-text content, can show previews/abstracts of others, and cannot display still others. PubMed's sources are far more open and we have large access to citations, abstracts, and trial results, with moderated access to full-text journals.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 05:52 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
That means that ISHAR is collating its publicly accessible contents to provide to the Wikimedia Foundation as a mass source donation, as well as the fact that our sources include formatting for citation on Wikipedia. ISHAR respects Wikipedia's Pillars and will work to help provide sourcing, references and information to articles. Wikipedia is the world's most powerful database, and we want to help it expand while maintaining its ideals.
This is noble, I suppose, but I'm getting the impression there are contradictions in your statements and those of ISHAR itself.

For example, you said earlier that visitors would not be charged a fee or login to view content, yet here you speak of publicly accessible content, clearly indicating that ISHAR would require a fee or other payment for some content.

The Indegogo pitch claims, "ISHAR will curate, archive, and store the ENTIRE COMPENDIUM of mind/body research." The entire compendium? That's extremely ambitious, and it will require a lot more than just a few partnership arrangements with IP owners you claimed earlier.

So, what's the truth in all this?
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Old 23rd September 2014, 06:23 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
This is noble, I suppose, but I'm getting the impression there are contradictions in your statements and those of ISHAR itself.

For example, you said earlier that visitors would not be charged a fee or login to view content, yet here you speak of publicly accessible content, clearly indicating that ISHAR would require a fee or other payment for some content.

The Indegogo pitch claims, "ISHAR will curate, archive, and store the ENTIRE COMPENDIUM of mind/body research." The entire compendium? That's extremely ambitious, and it will require a lot more than just a few partnership arrangements with IP owners you claimed earlier.

So, what's the truth in all this?
Regarding Wikipedia and our charging for access (or lack thereof), everything on ISHAR is free to peruse, but not all materials are free for us to donate to another site (Wikimedia). We do have a lot of public domain materials, but a significant portion of ISHAR is permitted access from other institutions, so we cannot give that material away, it's not ours to give.

As far as curating, archiving and storing the ENTIRE COMPENDIUM of mind/body research, that IS an extremely ambitious goal, and it's a long term one, much as Wikipedia's is. We are proud of the content that we are launching with, but it's just a small percentage of the research and work that's out here. We will continue to seek out new sources, reassess old ones and establish relationships with other institutions to grow our collection for as long as we exist.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 06:36 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
Regarding Wikipedia and our charging for access (or lack thereof), everything on ISHAR is free to peruse, but not all materials are free for us to donate to another site (Wikimedia). We do have a lot of public domain materials, but a significant portion of ISHAR is permitted access from other institutions, so we cannot give that material away, it's not ours to give.

As far as curating, archiving and storing the ENTIRE COMPENDIUM of mind/body research, that IS an extremely ambitious goal, and it's a long term one, much as Wikipedia's is. We are proud of the content that we are launching with, but it's just a small percentage of the research and work that's out here. We will continue to seek out new sources, reassess old ones and establish relationships with other institutions to grow our collection for as long as we exist.

You use language in a way that is more likely to mislead than inform.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 07:12 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
You use language in a way that is more likely to mislead than inform.
Sorry if I was unclear, I'll rephrase.

ISHAR will be free to all people. We plan to donate the parts of our library that are public domain to WikiMedia.
Our goal is to house all mind/body research. We're not there yet and won't be for some time, but we're working on it.
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Old 23rd September 2014, 10:32 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline
$50k is not a lot of money to A) Build a website capable of housing tens of thousands of articles, videos and entries, B) Pay a livable wage to the staff that curate said content and run ISHAR and C) Account for permission rights, licensing and various fees. We will certainly accept donations in the future if someone is so inclined, but our top priorit is creating a free, public site.
Phew and I was worrying that Deepak Chopra and others will not get their share. Now I can be reassured they will because you will have to pay them for the rights to use their material there. Thanks again for confirming that ISHAR is just to raise also the pockets of those who participate and also work there. Nice.. You just confirmed what I was saying on the beginning and that you will need more donations again.

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
I do not fully understand your issue on this point. Are you deriding our staff because they don't wish to work for free? We are a nonprofit and all of our fundraising/expenditures will eventually be public knowledge; you are free to critique our spending then, but I think you'll find it extremely frugal.
Yup writers on wikipedia work for free or at least have worked for free or on other wikias. So again you confirmed me what I was thinking from the start. Oh boy people in the New Age business are so predictable..

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
You are assuming that anyone affiliated WITH ISHAR must believe everything IN ISHAR. We house enormous amounts of medical research, theories, religious tracts and philosophical treatises. No one could believe in everything, as many of the world's ideas are contradictory. We employ the faithful & atheists, skeptics and believers.
Where are the skeptics and atheists you claim?? ISHAR is a believer site even your own page on the fund raising site attacks skeptics so I doubt there will be any in ISHAR:

Quote:
PROBLEM:

Many Institutions and proclaimed 'skeptic organizations' refuse to acknowledge or accept ongoing scientific research on integrated approaches. They disseminate negative and erroneous information about these healing methods that makes it harder for researchers, clinicians and people like YOU to get accurate information.
Taken from: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/let-s-raise-ishar

Another thing is that people who are for it are all woo believers. There is no single Dr. Steven Novella or people like that. You have there Chopra and his whole camp.

Another thing is that you yourself claim that world's ideas are contradictory but you want to make a NEUTRAL Ishar?? How in the world you want to make that??? You are contradicting yourself here two times at least..

Originally Posted by ISHARonline
This seems a rather dramatic (deliberate?) misunderstanding of what I said. My point was that even peer-reviewed journals of high Impact Factor have a share of low-quality articles, and many journals of low Impact Factor have a share of high-quality articles. I am not denigrating Nature, but rather pointing out that there are methodologically sound studies that are being overlooked. We are not being scientifically rigorous if we discount all research that we don't already agree with.
Nope its not deliberate I am just showing your bias that is all. I agree that there can be studies which are weaker in Nature but to claim that in some woo journal are good studies is beyond me. I read many woo journals even the one you claimed and I seen the errors there. So sorry I do not agree here.
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Old 24th September 2014, 03:59 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
That means that ISHAR is collating its publicly accessible contents to provide to the Wikimedia Foundation as a mass source donation, as well as the fact that our sources include formatting for citation on Wikipedia. ISHAR respects Wikipedia's Pillars and will work to help provide sourcing, references and information to articles. Wikipedia is the world's most powerful database, and we want to help it expand while maintaining its ideals.
"You have to be kidding me" - Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia founder

This is apparently in response to a petition by change.org for Wikipedia to change their policies on alternative "medicine."

The response to the petition was pretty spot-on:

Quote:
No, you have to be kidding me. Every single person who signed this petition needs to go back to check their premises and think harder about what it means to be honest, factual, truthful.

Wikipedia's policies around this kind of thing are exactly spot-on and correct. If you can get your work published in respectable scientific journals - that is to say, if you can produce evidence through replicable scientific experiments, then Wikipedia will cover it appropriately.

What we won't do is pretend that the work of lunatic charlatans is the equivalent of "true scientific discourse". It isn't.

—Jimbo Wales, March 23, 2014
Looks like wikipedia don't want yer info, Ishtar.
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Old 24th September 2014, 04:55 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
I said "ideals", not "ideas," but the point remains. In either case, objectively weighing evidence is key, and labeling entire fields of thought unacceptable to examine is the most rigid of orthodoxy.

I find it interesting that in these exchanges, I seem to be the one telling people on a skeptic's forum that nothing should be taken on faith and evidence should inform our decisions. I also find it interesting that I am being accused of quackery and having ill fortune wished upon me without anyone here having actually seen our content.
I have little patience when Deepak is involved.


I'l bite, Since the site contains almost nothing [Or because Deepak is involved; because there is a site there must be a designer of that site and because there is a designer he must have designed other sites and therefore isharonline is all other sites].

Do tell me what kind of content you have.
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Old 24th September 2014, 05:20 AM   #32
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Can you explain how your site does not infer an unearned status on people like Deepak? To the uninformed, this site might look like a version of PubMed which is a legitimate site of valid peer reviewed research. If someone is trying to be an informed consumer of health care, they might look at this site and believe Deepak's "work" has value.
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Old 24th September 2014, 05:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by carlitos View Post
"You have to be kidding me" - Jimmy Wales, Wikipedia founder

This is apparently in response to a petition by change for Wikipedia to change their policies on alternative "medicine." (urls redacted by ISHARonline in order to quote)

The response to the petition was pretty spot-on:



Looks like wikipedia don't want yer info, Ishtar.
ISHAR, not Ishtar (it's an acronym, not a Sumerian goddess). As far as the petition, that took place before ISHAR's time and is unaffiliated with what we're trying to do. We do not seek to change Wikipedia's rules, but operate within them.
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Old 24th September 2014, 05:30 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I have little patience when Deepak is involved.


I'l bite, Since the site contains almost nothing [Or because Deepak is involved; because there is a site there must be a designer of that site and because there is a designer he must have designed other sites and therefore isharonline is all other sites].

Do tell me what kind of content you have.
Glad to! One of the areas we have a significant number of sources on relates to the connection between physical health and mental states, especially in regards to meditation & telomerase. We've been working with Nobel Laureate Elizabeth Blackburn's research on the topic and will be posting her most recent work once she's ready to publish.

Here are some sample citations, which since our website is not up yet, I've limited to those available on PubMed. This is the kind of content that we look to house and discuss on ISHAR:

Epel, E., Daubenmier, J., Moskowitz, J. T., Folkman, S., & Blackburn, E. (2009). Can meditation slow rate of cellular aging? Cognitive stress, mindfulness, and telomeres. Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences, 1172, 34–53. doi:10.1111/j.1749-6632.2009.04414.x

Jacobs, T. L., Epel, E. S., Lin, J., Blackburn, E. H., Wolkowitz, O. M., Bridwell, D. A., … Saron, C. D. (2011). Intensive meditation training, immune cell telomerase activity, and psychological mediators. Psychoneuroendocrinology, 36(5), 664–681. doi:10.1016/j.psyneuen.2010.09.010

Lavretsky, H., Epel, E. S., Siddarth, P., Nazarian, N., Cyr, N. S., Khalsa, D. S., … Irwin, M. R. (2013). A pilot study of yogic meditation for family dementia caregivers with depressive symptoms: effects on mental health, cognition, and telomerase activity. International Journal of Geriatric Psychiatry, 28(1), 57–65. doi:10.1002/gps.3790
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Old 24th September 2014, 05:31 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
ISHAR, not Ishtar (it's an acronym, not a Sumerian goddess). As far as the petition, that took place before ISHAR's time and is unaffiliated with what we're trying to do. We do not seek to change Wikipedia's rules, but operate within them.
I'll ask again, what kind of content are you presenting?
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Old 24th September 2014, 06:09 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post
ISHAR, not Ishtar (it's an acronym, not a Sumerian goddess). As far as the petition, that took place before ISHAR's time and is unaffiliated with what we're trying to do. We do not seek to change Wikipedia's rules, but operate within them.
You may want to reconsider what you posted. Consider this:

Quote:
ACEP gains an ally in the fair treatment of integrative approaches
by Association for Comprehensive Energy Psychology
Dear friends,

Because of your support, we ran a successful petition last year gaining over 11,280 signatures. Thank you! Our Wikipedia campaign continues and we have some exciting progress to share. ACEP has recently begun collaborating with the developers of the Integrative Studies Historical Archive and Repository (ISHAR). The goal of ISHAR is to digitally curate 500,000+ entries on cultural and cutting edge scientific knowledge related to mind/body healing practices from all over the world (including energy psychology). Additionally, ISHAR aims to serve as a major institutional voice (in conjunction with ACEP) to weigh in on and correct misinformation that currently exists about EFT, TFT, energy medicine, etc. on standard platforms such as Wikipedia.

Would a reminder of who ACEP is relative to the Wikipedia petition be in order?
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Old 24th September 2014, 06:12 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Lukas1986 View Post
Phew and I was worrying that Deepak Chopra and others will not get their share. Now I can be reassured they will because you will have to pay them for the rights to use their material there. Thanks again for confirming that ISHAR is just to raise also the pockets of those who participate and also work there. Nice.. You just confirmed what I was saying on the beginning and that you will need more donations again.



Yup writers on wikipedia work for free or at least have worked for free or on other wikias. So again you confirmed me what I was thinking from the start. Oh boy people in the New Age business are so predictable..



Where are the skeptics and atheists you claim?? ISHAR is a believer site even your own page on the fund raising site attacks skeptics so I doubt there will be any in ISHAR:



Taken from: (URL redacted by ISHARonline to allow quoting)

Another thing is that people who are for it are all woo believers. There is no single Dr. Steven Novella or people like that. You have there Chopra and his whole camp.

Another thing is that you yourself claim that world's ideas are contradictory but you want to make a NEUTRAL Ishar?? How in the world you want to make that??? You are contradicting yourself here two times at least..



Nope its not deliberate I am just showing your bias that is all. I agree that there can be studies which are weaker in Nature but to claim that in some woo journal are good studies is beyond me. I read many woo journals even the one you claimed and I seen the errors there. So sorry I do not agree here.
For the sake of brevity, I'm going to boil down what seem to be your complaints and respond in turn:
  1. You appear to be scandalized by the fact that the nonprofit ISHAR, which offers all its services for free, will accept voluntary donations. What nonprofit refuses donations? If you believe that paying those of us working on ISHAR is immoral, or that Deepak Chopra is somehow going to abscond with the moderate sum donated to ISHAR, then just don't donate.
  2. You seem to believe that if a librarian must intrinsically believe in every single book in the library. Aside from being unreasonable, this is impossible, as I said before. If I stored information on radical right wing treatises and radical left wing manifestos, I could not honestly believe in both. I'm afraid there's no "gotcha" to be had by claiming both neutrality and the existence of contradicting information. That's the role of any archive. As for wanting to know the personal beliefs of ISHAR's staff, I'm not going to divulge names, religious affiliations or personal opinions here.
  3. Finally, your claim that there has never been a scientifically sound study in any "woo" journal is bewildering. First of all, journals do not identify as "woo," labeling them as such is your subjective choice. Secondly, we house articles from hundreds of journals, from American Cardiology to JAMA, from JACM to Lancet. Third, believing or opposing something without reviewing the evidence is the mindset ISHAR is designed to address.
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Old 24th September 2014, 06:30 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
You may want to reconsider what you posted. Consider this: (URL redacted so ISHARonline can quote)




Would a reminder of who ACEP is relative to the Wikipedia petition be in order?
ACEP's efforts with the Wikipedia petition were long before its endorsement of ISHAR. ACEP did what they felt appropriate at that time, but that has no effect on the fact that ISHAR is not seeking to change Wikipedia's rules. We are grateful to our supporters, but what they have chosen to do in the past is not a mandate that ISHAR must pursue that course of action.
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Old 24th September 2014, 06:31 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I'll ask again, what kind of content are you presenting?
I answered you before you posted this.
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Old 24th September 2014, 06:34 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by ISHARonline View Post

{sniipped for length}
JAMA, from JACM; You'll need to clarify one yields many results the other a pdf on ambulatory care.

Addressing claims without evidence is nice, I suspect however what you consider evidence may be a much looser definition than mine.
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