A woman's walk through New York

Checkmite

Skepticifimisticalationist
Checkmite
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This woman went on a walk through Manhattan while wearing plain jeans and a plain black crew-neck t-shirt, following a man carrying a backpack with a hidden camera.

Featured is a short selection from the barrage of catcalls, rude comments, and stalky behavior she attracted for being a very plainly dressed but nevertheless female person walking down the street:



Predictably, there have been rape threats posted in the video comments.
 
Ugh. I hate it when men call out "smile", even in the office. I always want to retort "would you ever say that to a man?", but I'm too shy, shy.

Why are women still expected to be these man-pleasing rays of sunshine for some people? It ain't the 1950s anymore.

And the following you thing is proper creepy. I've had that happen to me a few times.
 
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Checkmite said:
Jesus, is it really common? I don't know how anyone could stand that for any length of time without trying to run at some point.
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I don't think I've had it happen for five whole minutes. But the problem is you just don't know what might happen. If someone is so removed from reality to think that it's acceptable to do that, you have no clue how they might respond to anything you try to do or say. It's a very, very degrading experience. Which is of course the whole point for men who do it.
 
lonepinealex said:
I don't think I've had it happen for five whole minutes. But the problem is you just don't know what might happen. If someone is so removed from reality to think that it's acceptable to do that, you have no clue how they might respond to anything you try to do or say. It's a very, very degrading experience. Which is of course the whole point for men who do it.
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It does rather strike me as a "weapon" those men are using against being ignored. You can walk past a person and not engage, but how do you ignore a person making a point of walking right beside you wherever you go?

Gah. Shuddering.
 
I had this happen all the time in Pittsburgh. I'm not even much of a looker, but it doesn't seem to matter to them. Didn't matter what I was wearing either (usually just jeans and a hoodie or work clothes depending on the time of day). "Smile" was very common, so annoying. I wore headphones all the time, but it still happened. Sometimes I was able to shrug it off, other times it made me feel sick and angry.

My female friends always knew what I was talking about if I showed up somewhere irritated about it happening on the way. But I must admit, the second I dared complain about it in the presence of male friends, they'd usually either try to hand-wave it away ("well, that's just how guys are, just ignore them") or imply that i was somehow being a bitch to even mention it. I often secretly wondered if this reaction was because they did the same damn thing when they were just in packs of guys and girls walked by.

Having my guitar would REALLY bring it on for some reason. "Hey baby, play me a song." Fairly often, I'd also hear truly foul and unrepeatable remarks. Ugh, disgusting. But eventually I just stopped mentioning it because I didn't want to seem like I was making drama. A lot of guys seem to react in a really prickly fashion to girls they know mentioning this phenomenon in a negative way. :(

It honestly feels good to bluster about it a little. Thanks for starting this thread, Checkmite. :)
 
lonepinealex said:
Ugh. I hate it when men call out "smile", even in the office. I always want to retort "would you ever say that to a man?", but I'm too shy, shy.
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People say, "smile" to me all the time in the office...

Maybe it's a regional thing?
 
Newtons Bit said:
People say, "smile" to me all the time in the office...

Maybe it's a regional thing?
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I've never had it said to me by a stranger on the street either here in Boston or when I lived in Providence, or Nashville. Most of my female friends in all three cities had that experience regularly.
 
lonepinealex said:
Ugh. I hate it when men call out "smile", even in the office. I always want to retort "would you ever say that to a man?", but I'm too shy, shy.
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It does, I hear it regularly when I go out. Needless to say it does little to actually make me smile.
I have no experience with the other things described in the article (call it male privilege if you will).
The urge to treat women this rudely is so alien to me that I'm actually surprised it appears to be so common. There are more creept out there than I was aware of.
 
Without minimizing the seriousness of this:

My cousin got a job when she was much younger at a gas station. Each customer she served hit on her harder and harder. She put on a sweater and a baseball cap over the course of the day to look more and more androgynous. But the more she disguised her appearance, the more inappropriate comments she received. She was completely miserable ... by the time her friends revealed it had been an elaborate practical joke.
 
First of all, I was the one standing by the H&M store and when I wished this woman a "Good evening," I considered just a civil gesture on my part! :mad:

Just kidding!

There is something I don't understand though. I know it happens, especially with guys who are basically 'hanging out.' But the men seemed to be singling her out. There are other women walking by who they appear to ignore.
 
Well you can't hit on everybody at once; and I expect switching immediately from one woman who's rebuffed or ignored you to another who's already witnessed your previous attempt wouldn't be "smooth".
 
lonepinealex said:
Ugh. I hate it when men call out "smile", even in the office.
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I don't get. If they wanted you to smile, why don't they give you a reason to?

This might simply be because I'm a man and not a woman, but I've worked a ton of women in less professional lines of work then the office and I've never seen or engaged in this kind of behavior.

Likewise, I've never seen or engaged in the behaviors depicted in the video in the original post. Do guys really pull this kind of crap?
 
I'm not minimizing the seriousness of this either. But when street guys say to a woman passing by, "Whas'up baby!" they're not really hitting on her. I'm sure they don't expect her to stop. In their minds they're just reacting to the passing scene. The funny thing is, as I learned a long time ago, those same guys are the first ones to help someone on the street if you fall or get sick or whatever. They're not all bad. Meanwhile, the suits just walk past you like you don't exist.

The guy who walked alongside her for two minutes, that's a little different. Some of the other guys were also creepy.
 
While I agree 100% with their cause, they lose me when they conflate clear harassment (of which there's certainly a good deal in the video) with what seems to be panhandlers addressing the woman in the same way they probably address everyone who walks by (of which there's also a good deal). Of course whether that constitutes a different kind of "harassment" is a legitimate issue, but it's not the one these people are addressing. By overstating their case, they end up weakening it.
 
newyorkguy said:
I'm not minimizing the seriousness of this either. But when street guys say to a woman passing by, "Whas'up baby!" they're not really hitting on her. I'm sure they don't expect her to stop. In their minds they're just reacting to the passing scene. The funny thing is, as I learned a long time ago, those same guys are the first ones to help someone on the street if you fall or get sick or whatever. They're not all bad. Meanwhile, the suits just walk past you like you don't exist.
The guy who walked alongside her for two minutes, that's a little different. Some of the other guys were also creepy.
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Yeah, we know they're not really hitting on us, it's entirely about power.

The highlighted bit reminded me of when Bernard Manning used to go on about how much money he gave to charity, and how he looked after his mum.
 
lonepinealex said:
Yeah, we know they're not really hitting on us, it's entirely about power.

The highlighted bit reminded me of when Bernard Manning used to go on about how much money he gave to charity, and how he looked after his mum.
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Word.

See my above post. The women tend to understand the problem - but a lot of men immediately start backpedaling and making excuses. I'm not saying that to be mean. A lot of these apologists were my friends and were otherwise very nice, genial people (so far as I could tell anyway). But they just couldn't seem to accept that this issue bothered us.

And eventually, to avoid low-key conflict, I just quit mentioning it. I'm often a jellyfish who prefers the path of least resistance, even if I'm seething inside.


ETA - It's no fun essentially being told the modern day equivalent of, "Now calm down, you're getting hysterical" when you try to state that something is gross and bothers you. If nothing else, it's intimidating. At worse, it's scares us and it makes us feel bad. It's a totally legit thing to be irritated by. But when it's received in such a way, it's either feel even more patronized, or just bite the bullet and shut up about it.

I'm not sure we should always have to shut up about it. :(
 
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isissxn said:
<snip> But they just couldn't seem to accept that this issue bothered us. <snip>
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I understand it bothers women and I don't blame them: I have three daughters.

I also have friends that, unfortunately, act that way. I know they don't mean to be offensive. They've told me that. They ask me, "When you see a good looking woman go by why you don't say something? You scared of women, man?" When I point out that women don't like it they argue, "Man they just say that. Every woman likes to know she's attractive to men."

I'm not taking sides but I agree with Quinn that some of the criticism seems exaggerated.
 
Checkmite said:
Jesus, is it really common? I don't know how anyone could stand that for any length of time without trying to run at some point.
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Or turning and standing their ground*.....












* if you know what I mean and I think you do!!!:D:D:D
 
isissxn said:
I had this happen all the time in Pittsburgh. I'm not even much of a looker, but it doesn't seem to matter to them. Didn't matter what I was wearing either (usually just jeans and a hoodie or work clothes depending on the time of day). "Smile" was very common, so annoying. I wore headphones all the time, but it still happened. Sometimes I was able to shrug it off, other times it made me feel sick and angry.

My female friends always knew what I was talking about if I showed up somewhere irritated about it happening on the way. But I must admit, the second I dared complain about it in the presence of male friends, they'd usually either try to hand-wave it away ("well, that's just how guys are, just ignore them") or imply that i was somehow being a bitch to even mention it. I often secretly wondered if this reaction was because they did the same damn thing when they were just in packs of guys and girls walked by.

Having my guitar would REALLY bring it on for some reason. "Hey baby, play me a song." Fairly often, I'd also hear truly foul and unrepeatable remarks. Ugh, disgusting. But eventually I just stopped mentioning it because I didn't want to seem like I was making drama. A lot of guys seem to react in a really prickly fashion to girls they know mentioning this phenomenon in a negative way. :(

It honestly feels good to bluster about it a little. Thanks for starting this thread, Checkmite. :)
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Well, there are a lot of fun folk songs involving murder so there's those and a dark look.
 
Well, it seems like a problem that could be solved (or at least lessened) by men listening to what women are actually saying and trusting that they say what they mean, as opposed to playing silly and pointless games. But how do you get a dialogue going with things the way they are? It's difficult.

Also, there's a spectrum here. I was much less likely to get out of sorts about a "hey, baby" than a "yo, you down to ****?" or, "I bet you smell good." The first one is a bit awkward and I'm not thrilled about it, but whatever. If I was having a good day, it'd bounce right off me. The latter two (and yes, I heard both of those MULTIPLE TIMES over the span of 5 years or so in the city) and comments of their ilk are quite different. They are disgusting and aggressive. No man could possibly believe a random woman wanted to hear THAT. It's not flattering. It's intimidating. And they say it to be disgusting and aggressive, because something in them gets off on that.

That's what I have a problem with. And that is not an exaggeration.
 
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Porpoise of Life said:
It does, I hear it regularly when I go out. Needless to say it does little to actually make me smile.
I have no experience with the other things described in the article (call it male privilege if you will).
The urge to treat women this rudely is so alien to me that I'm actually surprised it appears to be so common. There are more creept out there than I was aware of.
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Sturgeon's Law (TM)
 
newyorkguy said:
I understand it bothers women and I don't blame them: I have three daughters.

I also have friends that, unfortunately, act that way. I know they don't mean to be offensive. They've told me that. They ask me, "When you see a good looking woman go by why you don't say something? You scared of women, man?" When I point out that women don't like it they argue, "Man they just say that. Every woman likes to know she's attractive to men."

I'm not taking sides but I agree with Quinn that some of the criticism seems exaggerated.
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Whether or not it's meant to be offensive is irrelevant. The receiver gets to determine whether something is offensive to them not the sender.
 
3point14 said:
One says 'No, my xxxxx just died. Leave me alone.'


Doesn't have to be true, just has to be effective.
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Sadly, ANY response at all seems to give a kind of satisfaction. There's no way to win, but the closest you can come is by not engaging at all. No look, no slow-down, no words, nothing.

In my experience.

Man, I wish some other ladies who hate this would show up. I'm starting to feel like the token thread-nut. I'm not. I have very moderate ideas about feminism, and they've gotten me chased brutally out of other feminism-related threads. But this is one point where I just can't see any two ways about it. It's bullying, it's gross, and a large portion of men (even gentlemen) either make excuses for it, downplay it, or refuse to acknowledge it's a problem at all.

I don't like that. I don't know what to DO about it, but I know a reasoned, honest dialogue would be a good start.
 
Does anyone not know that New York is like this? Anyone? Well, anyone other than New Yorkers who are rich enough to afford apartments with an elevator in the building, let alone a door man. They tend to get isolated. Anyone else?

New York probably has five separate unions for Shifty Guys who Hang Around in Doorways. Catcalls have been a cliché since forever. It's so solid that 15 years ago, Sex and the City did a very funny hack on it.

I grew up in New York, and I quickly learned to keep my gaze fixated on the pavement three meters ahead while still being consciously aware of everyone in the vicinity to identify potential threats. Even if you don't care about kids, let alone male ones (and given the ton of this forum, most probably don't), this is just embedded in New York culture. Now I'm in North Carolina, where things are very different. People smile and are generally polite to each other, but not that stuff.

Is anybody trying to change it? New Yorkers could set a heretic on fire in a wicker man every day in Central Park and New Yorkers would still think they're the shiznit and would easily get away with it. No. Is there any point in getting all hand-wringing about it? No, but it seems popular. Much more satisfying than action.
 
Something about this video just seems a bit odd, to me.
The "How you doing" guy from around 0.22 to 0.27 doesn't seem to get any quieter, for example, despite getting a lot further away.
The pixelation of others makes it impossible to tell if they're actually saying anything and some comments seem to come from absolutely nowhere, like the "Hey beautiful!" at around 0.34.
The "Nice!" comment appears to come from a guy who's clearly on his phone, too.
The subsequent "Damn!"s are also off camera.

This sort of harassment, other than the odd hello or good morning here and there, is clearly unacceptable, especially the stalky five minute walk guy, but I'm not convinced by the clip, for some reason.
Maybe it's the inclusion of people selling things, who are clearly trying to attract her business and not hitting on her?
Perhaps it's that most of the inappropriate stuff is happening in dodgy areas?

I'd like to see what would happen if a male model and actor did the same walk.
Probably wouldn't get hit on by an equivalent amount of women, but I'd appreciate the comparison.
 
The way some of these men act is completely foreign to me. I just don't understand where they learned that it's appropriate to treat women like that. It always makes me absolutely sick to my stomach when i see guys in a club grab a womans wrist as she walks by so he can "holla" at her. To me that is so wildly inappropriate I can't even put it into words. Trust me ladies, we are not all like that!

And while I think the "smile" thing primarily happens to women, I have had people say that to me as well and it annoys the hell out of me. Am I supposed to walk around smiling 24/7?
 
epepke said:
Does anyone not know that New York is like this? Anyone? Well, anyone other than New Yorkers who are rich enough to afford apartments with an elevator in the building, let alone a door man. They tend to get isolated. Anyone else?

New York probably has five separate unions for Shifty Guys who Hang Around in Doorways. Catcalls have been a cliché since forever. It's so solid that 15 years ago, Sex and the City did a very funny hack on it.

I grew up in New York, and I quickly learned to keep my gaze fixated on the pavement three meters ahead while still being consciously aware of everyone in the vicinity to identify potential threats. Even if you don't care about kids, let alone male ones (and given the ton of this forum, most probably don't), this is just embedded in New York culture. Now I'm in North Carolina, where things are very different. People smile and are generally polite to each other, but not that stuff.

Is anybody trying to change it? New Yorkers could set a heretic on fire in a wicker man every day in Central Park and New Yorkers would still think they're the shiznit and would easily get away with it. No. Is there any point in getting all hand-wringing about it? No, but it seems popular. Much more satisfying than action.
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It's hardly just New York though. My sister has had to put up with this kind of crap everywhere she has lived in the UK.
 
I just said it happens in tons of cities, not just New York. It happened to me on a daily in Pittsburgh. The only city I've ever visited where it didn't happen was (oddly) New Orleans.

I'm gonna chill on this thread for now. It's like shouting down a well, and I'm no good at it. There are posters on here who don't back down, especially concerning women's issues - maybe some of them will show up and argue this point better than I can. I get too frustrated. These are the same kind of responses I and some of my girl friends received in real life when this stupid issue came up.

Guess we're just supposed to "man up" and take it. Grrr, okay I'm out. I'm sorry. I guess this is a berserk button for me.

Time to go cool my jets.
 
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