Does Putin have asberger's syndrome, or is he just a psychopath?

Elind said:
This is an interesting speculation. Certainly the man (the Tsar) has a psychological deficiency of some sort, but what?

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...n-aspergers-syndrome-study-pentagon/22855927/
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Sounds like BS to me. This is a very typical, and usually evidence-free assertion, that dictators or leaders that we don't like are "mad", or "insane", or in this case "autistic".

Why do you say "certainly" the man has a psychological deficiency?

Also, please notice in your link that the claim is derived from a paper in which the claimed source actually denies the conclusion:

The 2008 study was one of many by Connors and her colleagues, who are contractors for the Office of Net Assessment (ONA), an internal Pentagon think tank that helps devise long-term military strategy. The 2008 report and a 2011 study were provided to USA TODAY as part of a Freedom of Information Act request.

Researchers can't prove their theory about Putin and Asperger's, the report said, because they were not able to perform a brain scan on the Russian president. The report cites work by autism specialists as backing their findings. It is not known whether the research has been acted on by Pentagon or administration officials.

The 2008 report cites Dr. Stephen Porges, who is now a University of North Carolina psychiatry professor, as concluding that "Putin carries a form of autism." However, Porges said Wednesday he had never seen the finished report and "would back off saying he has Asperger's."
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angrysoba said:
Sounds like BS to me. This is a very typical, and usually evidence-free assertion, that dictators or leaders that we don't like are "mad", or "insane", or in this case "autistic".

Why do you say "certainly" the man has a psychological deficiency?

Also, please notice in your link that the claim is derived from a paper in which the claimed source actually denies the conclusion:
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My my, you sound like an apologist for Putin. Can you name one aspect of his USSR mentality that actually benefits Russians in any way, other than the Russian macho drunks feeling of self worth? There is nothing, other than his own psychological dysfunction.

As to the denial, you claim. It is not a denial; but simply a statement that the suggestions of this analysis are not conclusive, as is also stated elsewhere in the article (and suggested in my heading).

But if you think the man is sane, in a normal sense; please do explain.
 
Elind said:
My my, you sound like an apologist for Putin.
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I see, so either I agree with your pseudoscientific diagnosis based on nothing at all, or I am an apologist for Putin.

Actually, no. I don't think there needs to be any mental disorder diagnosed to make sense of Putin.


Elind said:
Can you name one aspect of his USSR mentality that actually benefits Russians in any way, other than the Russian macho drunks feeling of self worth?
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Why do I need to do that? I could ask the same thing about many other leaders (How do we benefit from this president/prime minister?) and it will not mean that the person in power must be a psycho if he doesn't benefit people.

Elind said:
There is nothing, other than his own psychological dysfunction.
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Easy to assert; but you need to provide evidence. The only evidence you have provided so far actually contradicts you. My, my! How embarrassing for you.

Elind said:
As to the denial, you claim. It is not a denial; but simply a statement that the suggestions of this analysis are not conclusive, as is also stated elsewhere in the article (and suggested in my heading).
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So it is merely an assertion, and?

Elind said:
But if you think the man is sane, in a normal sense; please do explain.
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What do I need to explain? It sounds like he is a skilled politician in the sense that he has managed to get to the top in a very tough neighbourhood. That sounds like he is actually quite rational. On top of that, he seems to be popular among Russians and knows how to get what he wants, for the most part. This is common or garden opportunism, although he is uncommonly skilled at it.
 
Elind said:
My my, you sound like an apologist for Putin. Can you name one aspect of his USSR mentality that actually benefits Russians in any way, other than the Russian macho drunks feeling of self worth? There is nothing, other than his own psychological dysfunction.

As to the denial, you claim. It is not a denial; but simply a statement that the suggestions of this analysis are not conclusive, as is also stated elsewhere in the article (and suggested in my heading).

But if you think the man is sane, in a normal sense; please do explain.
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Are we diagnosing anyone who is ruthless and power-hungry as mentally ill?
 
Giz said:
Are we diagnosing anyone who is ruthless and power-hungry as mentally ill?
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It's interesting actually, that it was a technique of the old Soviet Union, as well as other totalitarian regimes, to pathologize those whose politics differed from their own.

A friend of mine from Sudan told me that if you speak out against the regime you will be taken to a mental hospital if it is your first offence.
 
angrysoba said:
What do I need to explain? It sounds like he is a skilled politician in the sense that he has managed to get to the top in a very tough neighbourhood. That sounds like he is actually quite rational. On top of that, he seems to be popular among Russians and knows how to get what he wants, for the most part. This is common or garden opportunism, although he is uncommonly skilled at it.
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Skilled? When you control the media and the courts you do not need skill, unless you equate political skill in a civilized context with simply grabbing almost absolute power.

Please address the issue, which is whether he is a leader that wants to improve the lot of the Russian people.

If you can explain how any of his actions do anything except enhance his personal ego, which is a sign of psychopathy IMHO, then I would be interested to hear.
 
angrysoba said:
It's interesting actually, that it was a technique of the old Soviet Union, as well as other totalitarian regimes, to pathologize those whose politics differed from their own.

A friend of mine from Sudan told me that if you speak out against the regime you will be taken to a mental hospital if it is your first offence.
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Do I take it that you think he is quite rational and is acting in the interests of the Russian people, skillfully?
 
Please, Putin is clearly three kids standing on each other's shoulders, in a big coat. It's very obvious.
 
Elind said:
Skilled? When you control the media and the courts you do not need skill, unless you equate political skill in a civilized context with simply grabbing almost absolute power.
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You need skill to acquire control of the media, the courts and to grab absolute power[sic].

In fact, I don't think he has absolute power either.

Elind said:
Please address the issue, which is whether he is a leader that wants to improve the lot of the Russian people.
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First of all, that is not the issue. At least that's not what your OP in the thread stated as the issue. Second, whether he wants to improve the lot of the Russian people is irrelevant to the issue of whether he is autistic or psychopathic.

Elind said:
If you can explain how any of his actions do anything except enhance his personal ego, which is a sign of psychopathy IMHO, then I would be interested to hear.
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Nope. You are the one who needs to make the case. So, doctor, how do you come to your conclusion?
 
Elind said:
Do I take it that you think he is quite rational and is acting in the interests of the Russian people, skillfully?
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One of those clauses is not necessary for the other. Actually, I think he probably believes he is enhancing the prestige of his country, but behaving rationally does not entail he is acting in the interests of the Russian people.
 
It seems to me that in the current geopolitical arrangement, as ever, Russia is somewhat awkwardly placed on the map of the globe. Unlike other nations, with easy access to the world's oceans, Russia is largely landlocked, and to some degree at the mercy of the nations and the geography that hem it in. For a great power, desiring global reach to secure global interests, it's a tough position to be in. So Russia's interests aren't always aligned with the interests of other nations, nor are they always aligned with what we expect a modern nation-state's interests to be. I think Churchill said it best:

I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest.​

So I suspect that if Putin's behavior does not always make sense to us, it is not because Putin is insane, but because we do not always understand Russia's perception of its own national interest.
 
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theprestige said:
So I suspect that if Putin's behavior does not always make sense to us, it is not because Putin is insane, but because we do not always understand Russia's perception of its own national interest.
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Anything can be over analysed. This is now a global economy with common global interests. Russia has resources and relatively well educated people (when they are sober). There is no logical reason why Russia has to act again like the USSR, except for a psychopathic deficiency (which is not considered mental illness) in it's leadership, now efficiently infected in large parts of the population.
 
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Removed moderated content and response to same


The question "Why does Russia behave as it does?" or "Why does Putin behave as he does?" is perfectly explicable in terms other than invoking mental health issues. In other words, I have no need of that hypothesis.

As rational thinking goes, the simplest explanations are the preferred ones; if Putin is more or less getting his own way, is in a commanding position in Russia and has the support of the majority of Russians then you don't need to start asking, "How did he get so insane?"

But as I say, if you have good evidence for his mental health problems then I am sure we would all love to see it.
 
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angrysoba said:
Sounds like BS to me. This is a very typical, and usually evidence-free assertion, that dictators or leaders that we don't like are "mad", or "insane", or in this case "autistic".
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During the last several years, "autistic" has become one of the favourite sciencey-sounding insults to throw around, aimed at anyone who disagrees with whoever is using the term, or acts in a way they don't like.

The article is entertaining though. The "scientific" assessment is based on something called Movement Pattern Analysis, developed by a British "management consultant" called Warren Lamb. I put that job title in quotes because according to his bio he left school at 16 and never seems to have managed anything, except his personal "management consultant" business that is. He based it on the teachings of Rudolf Laban, a dance instructor who apparently believed you could tell everything about a person by closely watching how they move. According to Lamb's wikipedia page, Movement Pattern Analysis is:

a theoretical model and assessment technique, used mainly in senior-management consulting and for personal-development. Lamb saw the importance of "affinities" between Effort energy elements triad combinations/ Shape three geometric planes.
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Yes, sic Wikipedia. So definitely science and not commercially-peddled woo at all then.

I suggest the Pentagon bring on the phrenologists next.

BTW, does Asperger's still exist? I thought it was going to be abolished in DSM-5 or something. At least I seem to remember howls of anguish from charities devoted to Asperger's about having their syndrome disappear.
 
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angrysoba said:
I have already told you; I think you are wrong.

The question "Why does Russia behave as it does?" or "Why does Putin behave as he does?" is perfectly explicable in terms other than invoking mental health issues. In other words, I have no need of that hypothesis.

As rational thinking goes, the simplest explanations are the preferred ones; if Putin is more or less getting his own way, is in a commanding position in Russia and has the support of the majority of Russians then you don't need to start asking, "How did he get so insane?"

But as I say, if you have good evidence for his mental health problems then I am sure we would all love to see it.
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I didn't ask how did he get so insane; I didn't even say he, or Russia, was insane by any medical defintion.

Try to be more rational. Try hard.
 
FromBelgiumWithLove said:
During the last several years, "autistic" has become one of the favourite sciencey-sounding insults to throw around, aimed at anyone who disagrees with whoever is using the term, or acts in a way they don't like.

The article is entertaining though. The "scientific" assessment is based on something called Movement Pattern Analysis, developed by a British "management consultant" called Warren Lamb. I put that job title in quotes because according to his bio he left school at 16 and never seems to have managed anything. He based it on the teachings of Rudolf Laban, a dance instructor who apparently believed you could tell everything about a person by closely watching how they move. According to Lamb's wikipedia page, Movement Pattern Analysis is:

Yes, sic Wikipedia. So definitely science and not commercially-peddled woo at all then.

I suggest the Pentagon bring on the phrenologists next.

BTW, does Asperger's still exist? I thought it was going to be abolished in DSM-5 or something. At least I seem to remember howls of anguish from charities devoted to Asperger's about having their syndrome disappear.
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I note that you make no comment at all on why Putin appears to act against the interests of Russia as a whole. I suppose you think simply that it is a normal human condition to act despotically.
 
Elind said:
I didn't ask how did he get so insane; I didn't even say he, or Russia, was insane by any medical defintion.
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Alright, I agree that you did not say "insane". However, you did say:

Certainly the man (the Tsar) has a psychological deficiency of some sort
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How did you become so certain? What is your evidence?

Try to think in an evidence-based manner. Try hard.

Elind said:
Try to be more rational. Try hard.
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It comes pretty easily for me. You see I am capable of looking at a factual problem while leaving my emotions out of it. This means that if someone suggests Putin has Brain Disorder De Jour I can dismiss the claim if it is not based on evidence. This is in spite of how I might feel emotionally, about Putin.

Of course, in doing so I received this response:

My my, you sound like an apologist for Putin
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Why? Because some people get emotional if the facts don't fit with the way they want things to be.

So, try to be more rational, hmmmkay? Try hard.
 
Elind said:
My my, you sound like an apologist for Putin. Can you name one aspect of his USSR mentality that actually benefits Russians in any way, other than the Russian macho drunks feeling of self worth? There is nothing, other than his own psychological dysfunction.
.....
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What makes you think he wants to benefit Russians? He rose through the ranks of the KGB. His goal -- at which he's been pretty successful -- is to enrich himself and his "oligarch" pals.
 
Bob001 said:
What makes you think he wants to benefit Russians? He rose through the ranks of the KGB. His goal -- at which he's been pretty successful -- is to enrich himself and his "oligarch" pals.
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Actually his oligarch pals are having a very hard hit; much harder than the average drunk Russian, although Putin doesn't need their votes. He can always jail them and confiscate their paper holdings.
 
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TragicMonkey said:
Please, Putin is clearly three kids standing on each other's shoulders, in a big coat. It's very obvious.
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To any observer trained in Movement Pattern Analysis it is, and the Labanotation records (and even the Kinetography Laban ones) are 100% conclusive. But there are sadly very few MPA specialists, and they command very high fees. So the mainstream media never pick up on it.
 
Elind said:
My my, you sound like an apologist for Putin.
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Elind, it is not being an apologist for Putin to suggest that he is an ambitious meanie rather than a psychopath.

Not all ruthless leaders in history necessarily had a mental disorder (unless one stretches the term of 'mental disorder' to include people who aggrandize themselves or some cause at public expense)
 
angrysoba said:
I have already told you; I think you are wrong.

The question "Why does Russia behave as it does?" or "Why does Putin behave as he does?" is perfectly explicable in terms other than invoking mental health issues. In other words, I have no need of that hypothesis.

As rational thinking goes, the simplest explanations are the preferred ones; if Putin is more or less getting his own way, is in a commanding position in Russia and has the support of the majority of Russians then you don't need to start asking, "How did he get so insane?"

But as I say, if you have good evidence for his mental health problems then I am sure we would all love to see it.
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This. OP, what, specifically, do you feel indicates that Putin has any type of mental disorder?
 
Hostile biographers of Stalin such as Medvedev and Conquest have denied that even he was insane. In a sense political bosses are in general very strange people. What normal person wants to be in charge of a country and rule over others?

So unless checked by legal and democratic constraints they usually start to exhibit unconventional behaviour. Such constraints have almost always been lacking in Russia. But Putin is no "mad czar".

He is a dangerous person, however, and I hope he has retained sufficient prudence to know at what point his excesses must be curbed.
 
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