NDE - Latest news supports survival

Lucianarchy

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Robin Turner - Western Mail. UK - 14.10.04

Edited by Darat: 


"A WELSH nurse believes she is close to answering the age-old question of what happens to us once we die.

For the past five years, Penny Sartori, from Swansea, has been researching near-death experiences among critically ill patients in the city's Morriston Hospital Intensive Care Unit.

And at the end of the five-year study, the most comprehensive of its type ever done, the 32-year-old says she has evidence to show that when people are declared clinically dead, their minds remain active..

...snip...

"Of those who have had NDEs, some have been quite religious while others were at best agnostics."

I have removed text and inserted a link so that this post is not in breach of your Membership Agreement. Although I found the link with just one search using Google it is your responsibility to ensure your posts are in line with the Membership Agreement when you post them. Therefore this is an official warning for violation of Rule 4, if you make future posts like this further sanctions may be applied.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat



Edited by Darat: 
Edited for breach of Membership Agreement and Rule 8.
 
Lucianarchy said:
Robin Turner - Western Mail. UK - 14.10.04

"A WELSH nurse believes she is close to answering the age-old question of what happens to us once we die.
Click to expand...

Believes being the key word!

Lucianarchy said:

For the past five years, Penny Sartori, from Swansea, has been researching near-death experiences among critically ill patients in the city's Morriston Hospital Intensive Care Unit.
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A nurse?? What qualifications? What experiments? What controls? How was it double blinded? Who authorised it?

Lucianarchy said:

And at the end of the five-year study, the most comprehensive of its type ever done, the 32-year-old says she has evidence to show that when people are declared clinically dead, their minds remain active.

She has 15 accounts from people that suggest there could be some kind of life after death.
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A whole 15 people in 5 years?? I have seen smaller smaple sizes but not very often.

Lucianarchy said:

Now the findings will be used by Dr Peter Fenwick, an internationally renowned neuro-psychiatrist and Fellow of the Royal College of Psychiatrists, who is conducting research into the subject across the UK.

Nearly all of the accounts she gathered said they floated above the resuscitation room and many gave details about procedures, nurses, porters or doctors they could not have seen from the positions they were lying in.

Many described floating towards a calming, bright light, where they saw relatives beckoning them at first, then eventually telling them to "go back".

But one woman, who has since died, reported a "hell" experience of falling downwards and being surrounded by dark, frightening shapes and noises.

A part-time doctoral student at the University of Wales, Lampeter, Mrs Sartori was granted ethical approval to carry out the research, which she used as a thesis for a Phd in near death experiences.

An earlier study at a Southampton hospital of 63 severe heart-attack survivors, found seven had "classic" near- death experiences, talking of a tunnel of light.

More research was called for and Mrs Sartori was ideally placed at the intensive care unit in Morriston, where many accident victims or other gravely ill people "clinically die" but are revived by resuscitation techniques.

She said, "What I found is incredible. One man, whose life signs completely went, said he floated above his body and saw everything.

"He described our attempts to revive him in perfect detail, even talking about a doctor who came in while off-duty then left.

"The patient's eyes were not even open when this happened and he was not only unconscious he was clinically dead.

"The man described seeing a Jesus-like, bearded figure standing next to his dead father.

"He said the figure touched him on the hand and told him to return as it was not his time.

"The amazing thing was that this patient, in his 50s, had suffered a life-long contracture of the hand from birth.

"Afterwards the movement returned to his hand."

She said many of the patients she asked about near-death experiences said they would not have volunteered the information if they had not asked.

"This suggests the phenomenon could be more widespread."

Mrs Sartori added that near death experiences (NDEs) are mostly positive.

"Nearly all those who have had NDEs tell me that they no longer fear death. In fact, because of what happened to them while clinically dead, they say they are happy to go.

"Of those who have had NDEs, some have been quite religious while others were at best agnostics."
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So what? We have is more anecdotal evidence that when somebody is near to death they can have odd experiences. In no way can it be construed as any kind of proof of life after death, if they were dead, they wouldn't have come back.

It does however suggest that our means of testing if somebody is actually dead may be somewhat lacking, i.e. testing heart beat and maybe brain waves, may not be sufficient.

We need to ask: after we have been unable to measure brain or heart function, how long can it be left before we cannot ever revive somebody?

Is there some other evidence of life that is currently too subtle for us to measure?

IMHO this rasies the same old questions but provides no new answers.
 
What does:
"Of those who have had NDEs, some have been quite religious while others were at best agnostics."
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actually mean??

That they were all pretty much religious, but a few at a stretch could be considered agnostic (in other words they don't attend church very often)??

This suggests that they are trying to give the story some kind of religious credibility by suggesting that it wasn't "only" belivers that had the experience. An NDE does not require the existence of a god, life after death or anything else supernatural, just a series of rather unpleasant freak physical conditions. I have no doubt II will be along to tell me I am wrong shortly!!
 
So anyone know any good lotions? the cold is making my skin dry again. I can't use the ones with perfumes or dyes... it makes me itchier.
 
Re: Re: NDE - Latest news supports survival

Stitch said:
....A whole 15 people in 5 years?? I have seen smaller smaple sizes but not very often.

So what? We have is more anecdotal evidence that when somebody is near to death they can have odd experiences. In no way can it be construed as any kind of proof of life after death, if they were dead, they wouldn't have come back.
....
Click to expand...
She's been supposedly studying NDE in the same Intensive care unit, apparently sanctioned, and yet she didn't think to add a simple test, like a message writ large on the top (ie ceiling facing side) of, say, the operating table overhead lights? Or a message on the up facing top of a cupboard?

And then asking the NDE patients, that apparently observed their own operations from above, if they noticed anything else in the room?

Pretty poor attempt at "research" if you ask me...
 
Excuse me, but what is new in this? It just confirms that people have NDEs. We already know that. And the longer we wait, the more uniform the accounts become, because the most usal form of NDE becomes a more and more well-known concept in the population. So if somebody perceives light, it becomes a tunnel of light, etc.

This is evidence for one thing and one thing only: That a certain percentage of people have certain perceptions in conditions that other people have been known to die from.

We still do not know what those who die experience.

Hans
 
This story, like many others, have the weakness that the people who told them were living when they told them. Accordingly, I cannot see them as evidence for anything else than hallucinations when close to death or when waking up after having been close to death.

Which is, BTW, comforting.

However, I find it interesting that one of them had a "hell" experience. Probably hallucinations drawn from the same belief system, but interesting nevertheless, because most Christians think they will go to heaven, although the bible says that hardly anybody will go there!

If those stories of things experienced "when dead" are true, particularly those where the "dead" person experienced things that s/he could not have known under normal circumstances, then the parapshychologists should have a rich field to work with. But they will have to start working on the double blind controls because otherwise it will be difficult to make the stories credible.

As it stands, the article seems to be written by a believer about a believer who has interpreted experiences of people who have experienced NDE's. The nurse may or may not have taken precautions to ensure that the stories are not growing with the telling, and as noted before, the sample is rather small. It would have been interesting to know which people (agnostic/believers) had which experiences.

It is also known that stimulating certain areas in the brain can cause the same experiences as NDE's. Since these people clearly are not dying, I think nobody will claim that the Pearly Gates will open or close on the whim of a neurologist with an electrode. These experiences could serve as a "placebo" group to compare with real NDE's.

As matter stands
 
Suezoled said:
So anyone know any good lotions? the cold is making my skin dry again. I can't use the ones with perfumes or dyes... it makes me itchier.
Click to expand...
Just use Nivea Lotion. Or better yet, most drug store chains have a self-branded equivalent for about half the price.
 
If any one is actually, genuinely interested, you should www.google.com for ' dr fenwick, southampton university, near death experience, scientific research, journal ressucitacion research, horizon'
 
Lucianarchy said:
If any one is actually, genuinely interested, you should www.google.com for ' dr fenwick, southampton university, near death experience, scientific research, journal ressucitacion research, horizon'
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Why should we be interested? How can the experiences of people, who DID NOT die, ever prove what happens when you DO die?

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Why should we be interested? How can the experiences of people, who DID NOT die, ever prove what happens when you DO die?

Hans
Click to expand...

But there's the thing, in Fenwick's study the death is recorded as no brain activity, actual death. Go check it out.
 
Is the use of abusive profanity so closely following deliberate copyright infringement simply a request to be banned, Luci?

Because you could just ask straight out if you wanted to be banned.

You've managed to get banned from at least one other board with far less effort -- a believer board at that. Does that chafe?
 
Lucianarchy said:
Edited by Darat: 
Edited for breach of Membership Agreement and Rule 8.
Click to expand...

This post has been reported for violation of rule 8:

You will not post profanity. You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.
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Lucianarchy said:
CFLarsen said:
This story can be found here.

Your post has been reported for copyright violation.
Click to expand...
Edited by Darat: 
Edited for breach of Membership Agreement and Rule 8.

Click to expand...

This post has also been reported for violation of rule 8:

You will not post profanity. You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.
Click to expand...
 
Lucianarchy said:
Edited by Darat: 
Edited for breach of Membership Agreement and Rule 8.
Click to expand...

This post has also been reported for violation of rule 8:

You will not post profanity. You will not use profanity in our forums, and will neither post with language or content that is obscene, sexually oriented, or sexually suggestive nor link to sites that contain such content.
Click to expand...
 
CFLarsen said:
This post has been reported for violation of rule 8:
Click to expand...

Since you also posted ...
Edited by Darat: 
Edited for breach of Membership Agreement and Rule 8.


and:

Edited by Darat: 
Edited for breach of Membership Agreement and Rule 8.


....in your attempt to report me to your boyfriend, then that also applies to you. You could easily have removed the naughty words yourself before reposting the text, but you didn't. So now Darat's going to have to do the same to you. Unless, of course, Darat's a hypocrite, that is.
 
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