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Tags Amanda Knox case , john kerry , Maria Cantwell

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Old 12th July 2015, 03:01 AM   #1
Samson
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Amanda Knox and the State Department

I have no idea whether the State Department intervened to avoid hand to hand combat with the Italians when waiting for Knox to be exonerated.
1. The idea is generally ridiculed by those who started as nay sayers to her innocence. Furthermore, it is then proposed that this would make her more likely to be guilty if such intervention had been needed.
2. However, I hold the view that a smart culture like the American should never allow another culture like the Italian, to make a dog's breakfast of a simple case, and kidnap their citizen.
3. I understand the ISC created precedent with this last minute exoneration, and wonder why.
4. My conclusion is there was political interference at a high level to avoid profound embarrassment to the Italians, when the body of evidence showing what comprehensive errors were everywhere, was explained trans Atlantically by the American courts, in the inevitably doomed discussion of extradition.

Remember, respected members here like Machiavelli said many times the Italian government was bound to seek extradition if a guilty verdict was confirmed.

John Kerry said he would do his duty if required to comment. What duty was that to be?

I find this question some what more interesting than the pending motivation report.

Last edited by Samson; 12th July 2015 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 12th July 2015, 08:49 AM   #2
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It was more likely Italian political pressure.
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Old 12th July 2015, 02:12 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
It was more likely Italian political pressure.
This State Department transcript from 2009 is an interesting read.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2009/dec/133266.htm

Here is an exerpt

QUESTION: A couple more things. First of all, you didn’t the answer question. Are the State Department lawyers going to take a review of the trial and make its own judgment whether or not due process was afforded according to Italian law in this case? And secondly, is your reluctance to say whether due process was afforded have anything to do with your presumption of Amanda Knox’s guilt?

MR. KELLY: Well, on that latter question, I --

QUESTION: Well, usually when there --

MR. KELLY: We have no presumption of her guilt.

QUESTION: You don’t think she was guilty?

MR. KELLY: Oh, man.

QUESTION: Well, usually when the --

MR. KELLY: Elise.

QUESTION: I’m sorry. Usually when there’s a case – there have been numerous cases of American citizens where you think that the trial was not fair and it was clearly a case in which the American citizen was not guilty. And I’ve heard you and other people --

MR. KELLY: Those are normally places where there isn’t a transparent judicial system. There is a fair, open, and transparent legal system in Italy. We’re not talking about a country where we have problems with their legal system. There – if there were irregularities with any case, in any court, anywhere, including in this country, there is an appeal process that’s set up to allow defense counsel to, in a court of law, before a jury of peers, to present what they feel were irregularities in that case. There will be that opportunity
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Old 12th July 2015, 02:41 PM   #4
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So the idea is that they were released because it happened to suit people politically? I always did love an inconclusive ending. Terrible for the Kerchers, I suppose.
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Old 12th July 2015, 03:01 PM   #5
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Isn't there already a thread for this
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Old 12th July 2015, 03:13 PM   #6
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Do you think it desirable for one country to interfere with the legal process of another? So you want to set up a mandate for US citizens to commit very serious crimes abroad and not have to be brought to justice.
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Old 12th July 2015, 03:19 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Isn't there already a thread for this
No. I consulted the mods, and the thread is deemed suitable for this new more inclusive sub forum.
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Old 12th July 2015, 03:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
So the idea is that they were released because it happened to suit people politically? I always did love an inconclusive ending. Terrible for the Kerchers, I suppose.
The Kerchers are a family that repeatedly demanded Knox be jailed. All the information the state department got was available to them. The damage was self inflicted.
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Old 12th July 2015, 03:23 PM   #9
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OMFG not again!
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Old 12th July 2015, 03:25 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do you think it desirable for one country to interfere with the legal process of another? So you want to set up a mandate for US citizens to commit very serious crimes abroad and not have to be brought to justice.
Vixen, there is much more than we have on the thread so far. Surely you realise this. I am hoping people will contribute what they know. This is a serious subject for justice everywhere. That interview was the media doing its job. If only they had the freedom in other countries, New Zealand comes to mind with a subservient media, woefully inept at publishing information that is true and uncomfortable for central government.
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Old 12th July 2015, 03:30 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by shemp View Post
OMFG not again!
Too late, it's metastasised.
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Old 12th July 2015, 04:31 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I have no idea whether the State Department intervened to avoid hand to hand combat with the Italians when waiting for Knox to be exonerated.
1. The idea is generally ridiculed by those who started as nay sayers to her innocence.
And, perhaps, also by some folks who believed Knox's conviction to be unsafe very early on.
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
2. However, I hold the view that a smart culture like the American should never allow another culture like the Italian, to make a dog's breakfast of a simple case, and kidnap their citizen.
Are you kidding? Do you really see this as some kind of competition between a smart American culture and another, presumably not so smart, Italian culture? If so, I would love to hear you explain it. And, not to put too fine a point on it, arrested and held pending trial is not the same as kidnapped - even if the accused is eventually acquitted. Not in Italy, not in the U.S., and not, I suspect, in N.Z.
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
3. I understand the ISC created precedent with this last minute exoneration, and wonder why.
What precedent? I have not followed the case very carefully and neither am I conversant in Italian law.
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
4. My conclusion is there was political interference at a high level to avoid profound embarrassment to the Italians, when the body of evidence showing what comprehensive errors were everywhere, was explained trans Atlantically by the American courts, in the inevitably doomed discussion of extradition.
Am I correct in inferring that your conclusion that the U.S. government put pressure on the Italian government to set aside Knox's conviction is based entirely on supposition and no evidence? If so, what is there to discuss? Certainly not the evidence...
Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Remember, respected members here like Machiavelli said many times the Italian government was bound to seek extradition if a guilty verdict was confirmed.
That is, of course, trivially obvious. Of course Italy would seek extradition if Knox's conviction was upheld. I would hope that such considerations would not be factors in the the ISC's decision.
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Old 12th July 2015, 05:29 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Do you think it desirable for one country to interfere with the legal process of another? So you want to set up a mandate for US citizens to commit very serious crimes abroad and not have to be brought to justice.
Yes I do of course. The Indonesians are planning to shoot Mary Jane Veloso. She is innocent of intentional drug carrying for profit, and the Philipine government is intervening. There is one example, can you think of others? Should we attempt to intervene in Isis beheadings? These examples are necessary to sensibly discuss intermediate situations.
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Old 13th July 2015, 12:10 AM   #14
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We can't have foreigners convicting our citizens of anything! Where will it end?
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Old 13th July 2015, 01:45 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by shuttlt View Post
Too late, it's metastasised.
Quick, somebody douse it with some chemtrails and drop it in it's own footprint with some nanothermite!
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Old 13th July 2015, 01:54 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by BazBear View Post
Quick, somebody douse it with some chemtrails and drop it in it's own footprint with some nanothermite!
They struggle with Aliens and The Thing. It doesn't work.
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Old 13th July 2015, 04:22 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
No. I consulted the mods, and the thread is deemed suitable for this new more inclusive sub forum.
Can you reproduce for us here the argument that convince the mods that the OP deals with a conspiracy or conspiracy theory?

All I'm seeing is idle speculation that there might have been some idle speculation that the State Department might have done something typically (and uninterestingly) State-Departmenty.

Not really a conspiracy or conspiracy theory, is it? Especially since you seem to explicitly disavow any intention of offering a theory of your own in the OP ("I have no idea if...").

As far as I can tell, this thread should absolutely be in Trials and Errors, ideally merged with the existing Noble Cause Thread.
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Old 13th July 2015, 04:44 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can you reproduce for us here the argument that convince the mods that the OP deals with a conspiracy or conspiracy theory?

All I'm seeing is idle speculation that there might have been some idle speculation that the State Department might have done something typically (and uninterestingly) State-Departmenty.

Not really a conspiracy or conspiracy theory, is it? Especially since you seem to explicitly disavow any intention of offering a theory of your own in the OP ("I have no idea if...").

As far as I can tell, this thread should absolutely be in Trials and Errors, ideally merged with the existing Noble Cause Thread.
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Hi Samson,

The following thread that you created has been moved

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Thread: Amanda Knox and the State Department
Original Forum: Trials and Errors
New Forum: Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
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Old 13th July 2015, 04:58 PM   #19
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This thread is going nowhere fast...
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Old 13th July 2015, 05:04 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Can you reproduce for us here the argument that convince the mods that the OP deals with a conspiracy or conspiracy theory?

All I'm seeing is idle speculation that there might have been some idle speculation that the State Department might have done something typically (and uninterestingly) State-Departmenty.

Not really a conspiracy or conspiracy theory, is it? Especially since you seem to explicitly disavow any intention of offering a theory of your own in the OP ("I have no idea if...").

As far as I can tell, this thread should absolutely be in Trials and Errors, ideally merged with the existing Noble Cause Thread.
Well, it does smell a little like a conspiracy theory, in that it assumes that things are not as they seem and in that there is nothing but suspicion to support it. I am waiting for the "No Courters" to come forward and argue that there really is no such thing as a supreme court in Italy...
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Old 13th July 2015, 05:18 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
Well, it does smell a little like a conspiracy theory, in that it assumes that things are not as they seem and in that there is nothing but suspicion to support it. I am waiting for the "No Courters" to come forward and argue that there really is no such thing as a supreme court in Italy...
Italy? I thought that was a part of the mythical Atlantis?

In any case, I just hope PIs and PGs don't stain the carpets over here.
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Old 13th July 2015, 05:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
Well, it does smell a little like a conspiracy theory, in that it assumes that things are not as they seem and in that there is nothing but suspicion to support it. I am waiting for the "No Courters" to come forward and argue that there really is no such thing as a supreme court in Italy...
Originally Posted by BazBear View Post
Italy? I thought that was a part of the mythical Atlantis?

In any case, I just hope PIs and PGs don't stain the carpets over here.
Since I started this thread, more information has come to light, and I now have almost no doubt that the State Department made it crystal clear to people in Italy who could make things happen, that an unprecedented judicial action was required. This information is surprisingly easy to find. It seems Amanda was both Raffaele's curse and his saviour. Sabrina Misseri will have no such luck with her wrongful prosecution, and the thugs will get away with it.

Last edited by Samson; 13th July 2015 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 13th July 2015, 05:47 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Since I started this thread, more information has come to light, and I now have almost no doubt that the State Department made it crystal clear to people in Italy who could make things happen, that an unprecedented judicial action was required. This information is surprisingly easy to find. It seems Amanda was both Raffaele's curse and his saviour. Sabrina Misseri will have no such luck with her wrongful prosecution, and the thugs will get away with it.
Well, in that case it sounds more like the U.S. engaging in some high level intergovernmental pressure, rather than any sort of conspiracy.
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Old 13th July 2015, 06:06 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by BazBear View Post
Well, in that case it sounds more like the U.S. engaging in some high level intergovernmental pressure, rather than any sort of conspiracy.
My original plan was to start the thread in USA politics, but I asked a mod who suggested Trials and Errors, but the thread was moved, presumably by a different mod or mods. With the additional information that I can't post, but can be found on a nearby forum, I have no doubt it should be in USA politics. I will correspond with the mods. By the way who cares anyway about Knox?
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Old 13th July 2015, 06:14 PM   #25
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Um... Amanda Knox? Is this a case we are supposed to know about without a link?


ETA: Found an article in Time magazine:http://content.time.com/time/world/a...945430,00.html
"After a yearlong trial, American student Amanda Knox was found guilty for killing her British roommate while studying abroad in Italy in 2007."

So apparently, she's been found guilty in Italy and will be serving a 26-year sentence for murder.
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Old 13th July 2015, 06:57 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
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Hi Samson,

The following thread that you created has been moved

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New Forum: Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
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This does not appear to be you consulting with the mods, as you claimed. Did you consult with the mods about where to start this thread?
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Old 13th July 2015, 07:13 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
This does not appear to be you consulting with the mods, as you claimed. Did you consult with the mods about where to start this thread?
Yes I asked Agatha in fact who suggested T and E's. I have now asked the thread to be moved to USA politics, since the 2009 transcript I had not seen till after I started the thread tells a major story.
That story is this.
Senator Cantwell tried to make Hilary Clinton engage, but she refused because she wanted the Italians to help in Afghanistan, thus consigning Cantwell's citizen to two years unnecessary imprisonment.
Disgraceful.
No doubt that will be scorned, but the transcript is crystal clear. I will post the extracts when I have time.
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Old 13th July 2015, 07:50 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Yes I asked Agatha in fact who suggested T and E's. I have now asked the thread to be moved to USA politics, since the 2009 transcript I had not seen till after I started the thread tells a major story.
That story is this.
Senator Cantwell tried to make Hilary Clinton engage, but she refused because she wanted the Italians to help in Afghanistan, thus consigning Cantwell's citizen to two years unnecessary imprisonment.
Disgraceful.
No doubt that will be scorned, but the transcript is crystal clear. I will post the extracts when I have time.
Just to be clear, if the mods think this subforum is the right place for this thread, it's fine by me.

I was joking around earlier in this thread due to the fact I find the drama in the AK threads (as well as the related threads in FMF) kind of humorous.
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Old 13th July 2015, 07:59 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Yes I asked Agatha in fact who suggested T and E's. I have now asked the thread to be moved to USA politics, since the 2009 transcript I had not seen till after I started the thread tells a major story.
That story is this.
Senator Cantwell tried to make Hilary Clinton engage, but she refused because she wanted the Italians to help in Afghanistan, thus consigning Cantwell's citizen to two years unnecessary imprisonment.
Disgraceful.
No doubt that will be scorned, but the transcript is crystal clear. I will post the extracts when I have time.
I'm not sure this even belongs in US Politics.

Are you prepared to argue that intervening in Amanda Knox's imprisonment was the greatest good the State Department could have achieved at the time? Because I would say that obtaining more troops for the conflict in Afghanistan probably affected quite a few more American lives for the better. Just from the perspective of doing the most good for the most Americans, I think it'd be a pretty tough sell. But by all means make your pitch if you have one.
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Old 13th July 2015, 08:08 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by BazBear View Post
Just to be clear, if the mods think this subforum is the right place for this thread, it's fine by me.

I was joking around earlier in this thread due to the fact I find the drama in the AK threads (as well as the related threads in FMF) kind of humorous.
Since it is so central to the thread, and the link would have been in the OP had I been aware of it, here is the full transcript that is not subject to copyright:

QUESTION: May I ask you about the Amanda Knox case in Italy?

MR. KELLY: Mm-hmm.

QUESTION: I know the Secretary was asked yesterday about that and she said she hadn’t had a chance to look into it. I’m wondering (a) whether Senator Cantwell or anyone else has contacted the Secretary to get involved and (b) whether she’s now looked at the matter and has any interest in getting involved or any diplomatic, you know, action she has in mind.

Edited by Agatha:  Edited for rule 4. Do not post large quantities of material available from other sites, instead post a small portion and a link. The full article can be found at http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2009/dec/133266.htm

Last edited by Agatha; 14th July 2015 at 03:21 AM.
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Old 13th July 2015, 08:15 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Isn't there already a thread for this
Yes.

But if it's mod-pre-approved, so be it.

Last edited by Skeptic Ginger; 13th July 2015 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 13th July 2015, 08:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I'm not sure this even belongs in US Politics.

Are you prepared to argue that intervening in Amanda Knox's imprisonment was the greatest good the State Department could have achieved at the time? Because I would say that obtaining more troops for the conflict in Afghanistan probably affected quite a few more American lives for the better. Just from the perspective of doing the most good for the most Americans, I think it'd be a pretty tough sell. But by all means make your pitch if you have one.
That is a fair point. And it is true that Knox to a limited extent was the author of her own misfortune. Nor am I clear yet when Heavey and others educated the state department to the point their lawyers were sure of her innocence. However, as can be seen, Clinton was actively disengaged when she was convicted, and Kelly was caught off guard by the remarkable interrogation. I would love to see that sort of thing in New Zealand. Here the media are totally gutless even when the facts are obvious.
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Old 13th July 2015, 08:56 PM   #33
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One item I am curious about is if the CIA was asked to make an internal investigation of the case by the state department. If so, it might be interesting to read any reports they might have generated.
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Old 14th July 2015, 03:20 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
One item I am curious about is if the CIA was asked to make an internal investigation of the case by the state department. If so, it might be interesting to read any reports they might have generated.
DF, of course I don't know.

Have you read this link whose content has been abbreviated for reasonable reason? You probably did, but my full post has been notified as too long.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2009/dec/133266.htm

Oh man.

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Old 14th July 2015, 06:58 AM   #35
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So what is the conspiracy?


Is there any evidence that the Italian Govt subverted their own judicial system at the request of the US Govt?
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Old 14th July 2015, 08:00 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
One item I am curious about is if the CIA was asked to make an internal investigation of the case by the state department. If so, it might be interesting to read any reports they might have generated.
I was tired when I wrote that post, I mean the "FBI" not the "CIA"
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Old 14th July 2015, 10:35 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
DF, of course I don't know.

Have you read this link whose content has been abbreviated for reasonable reason? You probably did, but my full post has been notified as too long.

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/dpb/2009/dec/133266.htm

Oh man.
I read it when you posted it. Forgive me for asking, but I do not see anything in that transcript that supports your thesis that the US government intervened with the Italian courts in the Knox trials, could you point out what part of the transcript does so? Congressional interest in such cases is not unusual, neither is media interest, so the questions asked of State is not at all surprising.
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Old 14th July 2015, 10:43 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
That story is this.
Senator Cantwell tried to make Hilary Clinton engage, but she refused because she wanted the Italians to help in Afghanistan, thus consigning Cantwell's citizen to two years unnecessary imprisonment.
Disgraceful.
No doubt that will be scorned, but the transcript is crystal clear. I will post the extracts when I have time.
Is it you contention that it is the responsibility of the US State Department to intervene anytime an American citizen is put on trial in a foreign country? Or just in this case where some well intentioned people asserted the innocence of the accused but not, perhaps, when those same well intentioned bystanders are convinced that the accused is guilty?

Finally, what action by the State Department would have been appropriate and would have resulted in Knox's release?
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Old 14th July 2015, 10:45 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I have no idea whether the State Department intervened to avoid hand to hand combat with the Italians when waiting for Knox to be exonerated.

2. However, I hold the view that a smart culture like the American should never allow another culture like the Italian, to make a dog's breakfast of a simple case, and kidnap their citizen.
Another culture? You make it sound like Italy is 13th century Mayan.

And this so-called smart culture allows other cultures all over the world to incarcerate Americans for things that are not even crimes here. Why would Amanda Knox be any different. Oh yeah, she's hawt.

And don't pull a muscle jumping to conclusions, I thought she was innocent.
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Old 14th July 2015, 11:05 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Metullus View Post
I read it when you posted it. Forgive me for asking, but I do not see anything in that transcript that supports your thesis that the US government intervened with the Italian courts in the Knox trials, could you point out what part of the transcript does so? Congressional interest in such cases is not unusual, neither is media interest, so the questions asked of State is not at all surprising.
I think Samson's argument is that the State Department did not intervene, even though it should have been aware of the issue and could have intervened if it wanted to.
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