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"It’s witchcraft, I’ll say that right now": Ritualistic murder in Pensacola

cosmicaug

Graduate Poster
cosmicaug
Joined
Jun 27, 2012
Messages
1,963
I don't know if this is the right forum for this. Could be 'General Skepticism and the Paranormal'. Could be 'Trial and Errors' (for now, mostly for the error part —but I imagine it might lead to some sort of trial).
There was a triple murder a few days ago in the westernmost part of the Florida panhandle (I think it would be considered Pensacola). The idiot sheriff of Escambia county has determined based on "initial research" that this is a ritualistic killing.

Quoting Sheriff David Morgan:
The method of the murder — blunt force trauma, slit throats, positioning of bodies — and our person of interest has some ties to a faith or religion that is indicative of that. The time of the death on Tuesday also coincides with what’s referred to as a blue moon, which occurs every three years.
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Worrisome to me is if the ritualistic nature of the crime, as allegedly inferred from "initial research", is what led them to pursue that particular "person of interest" (translation: he's a suspect but our evidence is so shaky we don't yet want to be on record saying it) rather than the other way around (which would be odd as well because when we have a murder a few days away from Christmas and the "person of interest" is a Christian no one would call it a Christian, Christmas ritual killing).

Let's be realistic here. A "ritualistic murder" tells me a bunch of deranged people were trying to reproduce something "cool looking" they saw once in a horror movie with occult themes. What is not a ritualistic killing is shooting someone in the head, bashing in people's head's with a claw hammer and then finishing them off by slitting their throats. Likewise, tying such a "ritual" to a date of significance (are blue moons even of significance to any religious or pseudo-religious group?*) should involve actually carrying it out on said date of significance rather than three days earlier. As for the positioning of the bodies, I think that there's already enough information available to question the competence of Sheriff David Morgan and his investigating detectives so I have to provisionally consider it to be bullpoop until shown otherwise.



http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/police-wiccan-ritual-killing-leaves-three-dead-pensacola-n404256

http://www.northescambia.com/2015/08/breaking-triple-murder-may-have-been-related-to-witchcraft

http://www.wfmynews2.com/story/news/crime/2015/08/04/sheriff-triple-murders-could-tied-blue-moon/31141441/

http://www.pnj.com/story/news/crime/2015/08/04/sheriff-triple-murder-may-tied-blue-moon/31131625/

http://jezebel.com/police-ritualistic-florida-triple-murder-was-tied-to-1722203890


* I ask because it sounds precisely like the sort of a thing someone looking for a link to "witchcraft" might think would have ritualistic significance but which likely doesn't since a blue moon has no particular astronomical/phenological/astrological significance (I'm guessing on the astrological) being a phenomenon which is strictly an artifact of arbitrary calendar design (there's no astronomical/phenological/astrological reason why a particular month should have 28, 29, 30 or 31 days —which means what is a blue moon in one arbitrary calendar would not be a blue moon in a different arbitrary calendar).
 
cosmicaug said:
* I ask because it sounds precisely like the sort of a thing someone looking for a link to "witchcraft" might think would have ritualistic significance but which likely doesn't since a blue moon has no particular astronomical/phenological/astrological significance (I'm guessing on the astrological) being a phenomenon which is strictly an artifact of arbitrary calendar design (there's no astronomical/phenological/astrological reason why a particular month should have 28, 29, 30 or 31 days —which means what is a blue moon in one arbitrary calendar would not be a blue moon in a different arbitrary calendar).
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As far as I know, that's correct.

I'm not a witch, though. They dressed me up like this. And this isn't my nose, it's a false one.
 
cosmicaug said:
SNIP

There was a triple murder a few days ago in the westernmost part of the Florida panhandle (I think it would be considered Pensacola). The idiot sheriff of Escambia county has determined based on "initial research" that this is a ritualistic killing.

Quoting Sheriff David Morgan:
The method of the murder — blunt force trauma, slit throats, positioning of bodies — and our person of interest has some ties to a faith or religion that is indicative of that. The time of the death on Tuesday also coincides with what’s referred to as a blue moon, which occurs every three years.
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SNIP
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Funny, there have been twelve six of this type of blue moon in the last seven years. :confused:

ETA: I was counting both full moons in each month instead of just the second one. :blush:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_moon#Blue_moons_between_2009_and_2021
 
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cosmicaug said:
I don't know if this is the right forum for this. Could be 'General Skepticism and the Paranormal'. Could be 'Trial and Errors' (for now, mostly for the error part —but I imagine it might lead to some sort of trial).
There was a triple murder a few days ago in the westernmost part of the Florida panhandle (I think it would be considered Pensacola). The idiot sheriff of Escambia county has determined based on "initial research" that this is a ritualistic killing.

Quoting Sheriff David Morgan:


Worrisome to me is if the ritualistic nature of the crime, as allegedly inferred from "initial research", is what led them to pursue that particular "person of interest" (translation: he's a suspect but our evidence is so shaky we don't yet want to be on record saying it) rather than the other way around (which would be odd as well because when we have a murder a few days away from Christmas and the "person of interest" is a Christian no one would call it a Christian, Christmas ritual killing).

Let's be realistic here. A "ritualistic murder" tells me a bunch of deranged people were trying to reproduce something "cool looking" they saw once in a horror movie with occult themes. What is not a ritualistic killing is shooting someone in the head, bashing in people's head's with a claw hammer and then finishing them off by slitting their throats. Likewise, tying such a "ritual" to a date of significance (are blue moons even of significance to any religious or pseudo-religious group?*) should involve actually carrying it out on said date of significance rather than three days earlier. As for the positioning of the bodies, I think that there's already enough information available to question the competence of Sheriff David Morgan and his investigating detectives so I have to provisionally consider it to be bullpoop until shown otherwise.
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This is quite a bizarre argument. Are there crime scene photos or witnesses giving statements contradicting the police statements about the way the bodies were positioned, or whatever other circumstances they consider as suggestive that the killings were "ritualistic" in nature? If not, I see no legitimate reason at this point to dismiss the police' mere descriptions of the crime scene as "bullpoop".
 
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I hope no nearby teenagers wear black clothing, listen to rock music, or are sullen in their dealings with adults. That would be a dead giveaway.
 
Checkmite said:
This is quite a bizarre argument. Are there crime scene photos or witnesses giving statements contradicting the police statements about the way the bodies were positioned, or whatever other circumstances they consider as suggestive that the killings were "ritualistic" in nature? If not, I see no legitimate reason at this point to dismiss the police' mere descriptions of the crime scene as "bullpoop".
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The "argument" is that enough demonstrated incompetence exists here (the sheriff is positing that the date is significant because it took place on a blue moon when in fact it didn't take place during a blue moon, fer chrissakes!) to take that which is left unsaid (what exactly there is about the "positioning" of the bodies that makes them so sure that this is ritualistic as to specifically say that it is Wicca related) with a huge grain of salt*. If your comment is about the specific word I used, I only used that word because the system is set up to censor the word I would otherwise have used (but "bullpoop" still gets the idea across well enough).



* Something one should do with any initial news reports about any news story but which I wouldn't normally think should necessarily apply to law enforcement who have been at the scene and who are making directly quoted statements (and then reiterating said direct statements upon later clarification).
 
Checkmite said:
This is quite a bizarre argument. Are there crime scene photos or witnesses giving statements contradicting the police statements about the way the bodies were positioned, or whatever other circumstances they consider as suggestive that the killings were "ritualistic" in nature? If not, I see no legitimate reason at this point to dismiss the police' mere descriptions of the crime scene as "bullpoop".
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Generally speaking, if a crime is attributed to "witchcraft" or "satanic rites," I immediately flag the story as BS until more information comes forward. The ratio of actual ritual sacrifices to alleged ritual sacrifices is asymptotically close to zero.
 
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Cleon said:
Generally speaking, if a crime is attributed to "witchcraft" or "satanic rites," I immediately flag the story as BS until more information comes forward. The ratio of actual ritual sacrifices to alleged ritual sacrifices is asymptotically close to zero.
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It's definitely not impossible for this to be a ritual crime but, yes, it does set off alarms in my head. Then when you find out that they may be considering the date to be significant (which can, depending on context, be an issue in and of itself since all dates are "significant" if you look hard enough) even though the murder did not happen on that "significant" date and that the murder was perpetrated with a hammer and a handgun your conclusion should not be that you should give the spokespeople for the sheriff department the benefit of the doubt on this one.
 
Cleon said:
Generally speaking, if a crime is attributed to "witchcraft" or "satanic rites," I immediately flag the story as BS until more information comes forward. The ratio of actual ritual sacrifices to alleged ritual sacrifices is asymptotically close to zero.
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That's because most "alleged" ritual sacrifices are rumors about what "corrupted youth" or massive secret cabals are up to but that aren't tied to any actual, specific crimes.

There's freaky people in the world. They make up all kinds of freaky things, including rituals like carving occult symbols into their children's backs or killing people and eating their organs before burying them and marking their graves with a dead cat hanging from an upside-down cross. Stuff like this happens once in a while; there's no need to be so reactionary about a police description of a crime as "ritualistic", at least not until the police release a heck of a lot more about the crime than the suspected date.
 
Checkmite said:
That's because most "alleged" ritual sacrifices are rumors about what "corrupted youth" or massive secret cabals are up to but that aren't tied to any actual, specific crimes.

There's freaky people in the world. They make up all kinds of freaky things, including rituals like carving occult symbols into their children's backs or killing people and eating their organs before burying them and marking their graves with a dead cat hanging from an upside-down cross. Stuff like this happens once in a while; there's no need to be so reactionary about a police description of a crime as "ritualistic", at least not until the police release a heck of a lot more about the crime than the suspected date.
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There's no need to assume that it's God's Own Truth, either. I'm skeptical. Yes, it's possible, but it's certainly not likely. Consider that the murder case against Amanda Knox was initially labeled as "ritualistic" by the police as well.
 
I saw this story last night on my news feeds, most sources reporting this as a "Wiccan ritual killing". I didn't know whether to laugh out loud or cry.....

We know a lot of people in the local "pagan" community. Numbers of people involved in Wicca. Such stories pop up now and then and betray complete ignorance of what's likely the most peaceful religion available. (Well, maybe Jainism...They won't even step on ants.)
The statements released to the media are just absurd; like the "connection" to the blue moon mentioned.

I recall being forced to sit through a training video on "How to recognize Satanic activity" back in the early 80s when that particular nonsensical fad was running around. It would have been hilarious if folks were not being arrested or kids forced into therapy.
 
I've recently noticed a lot of headlines about exorcisms. I think stories like these are just the clickbait-de-jour. If a headline has the word satanic, witchcraft, or exorcism in it, I ignore it.
 
TragicMonkey said:
I hope no nearby teenagers wear black clothing, listen to rock music, or are sullen in their dealings with adults. That would be a dead giveaway.
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Considering law enforcement's track record (particularly in that part of the country) on this subject, I fear for any teenagers who are a bit off of mainstream and having a rough go of adolescence who live nearby.
 
Cleon said:
There's no need to assume that it's God's Own Truth, either. I'm skeptical. Yes, it's possible, but it's certainly not likely. Consider that the murder case against Amanda Knox was initially labeled as "ritualistic" by the police as well.
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No given murder is likely to be ritualistic, that's true.

On the other hand, the information the police have given isn't some kind of slam-dunk case for incompetence. Much ado is being made of the discrepancy of the police wondering aloud whether the killing had something to do with the blue moon although it happened three days earlier. But other information, like the details about how the killings were done, as well as the bodies being arranged or specially positioned afterwards, would lead a reasonable investigator to believe that some type of ritualism is a valid possibility and worthy of consideration.
 
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Checkmite said:
No given murder is likely to be ritualistic, that's true.

On the other hand, the information the police have given isn't some kind of slam-dunk case for incompetence. Much ado is being made of the discrepancy of the police wondering aloud whether the killing had something to do with the blue moon although it happened three days earlier. But other information, like the details about how the killings were done, as well as the bodies being arranged or specially positioned afterwards, would lead a reasonable investigator to believe that some type of ritualism is a valid possibility and worthy of consideration.
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Or it could be a whacked-out serial killer.

Anyway, we'll see. For the time being my money's on "probably not a Satanic coven."
 
Checkmite said:
No given murder is likely to be ritualistic, that's true.

On the other hand, the information the police have given isn't some kind of slam-dunk case for incompetence. Much ado is being made of the discrepancy of the police wondering aloud whether the killing had something to do with the blue moon although it happened three days earlier. But other information, like the details about how the killings were done, as well as the bodies being arranged or specially positioned afterwards, would lead a reasonable investigator to believe that some type of ritualism is a valid possibility and worthy of consideration.
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This sheriff isn't talking about "some type of ritualism" though. He said quite specifically that it was a Wiccan ritualistic killing. I'm afraid the idea that there are people in positions of authority in 2015 who still believe that Wiccans practice ritual murder is frightening and ridiculous in equal measures.
 
Cleon said:
Or it could be a whacked-out serial killer.

Anyway, we'll see. For the time being my money's on "probably not a Satanic coven."
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People usually, and understandably, mentally default to "religious" when the term "ritual" surfaces. But religiously-motivated or -inspired killings aren't the only kinds that can involve ritualism. Some gang, drug cartel, and other organized-crime-related murders have had ritualistic elements for example.
 
Checkmite said:
People usually, and understandably, mentally default to "religious" when the term "ritual" surfaces. But religiously-motivated or -inspired killings aren't the only kinds that can involve ritualism. Some gang, drug cartel, and other organized-crime-related murders have had ritualistic elements for example.
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Granted, but in this case the sheriff made it pretty clear he was talking about the "religious" aspect of it, to the point of explicitly tieing it to Wicca.

A cartel murder I could buy.
 
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