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Old 29th November 2015, 10:15 AM   #1721
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Savage:

Here is an opportunity to learn:

Prof. Delorenzi was, in fact, a Radiologist; he did, in fact, undertake the radiological examination of many works of art. He even, in fact suggested that a radiological examination of the CIQ would be valuable. On the ohter hand, he did not undertake such an examination of the CIQ. He cannot be said to have brought his expertise to bear upon the CIQ. There is, in fact, no record I can find of his being allowed to handle the CIQ, or to examine it other than in its frame...
Slowvehicle,
- Can you give me the links you used?
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:19 AM   #1722
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Can you give me the links you used?
How many times must this question be answered for you before you comprehend that you must do your own research? None of your critics is obliged to help you make your case.
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:22 AM   #1723
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Instead, I'm going back to Delorenzi and further explore his expertise, etc. You guys could speed things up by telling me where you find your info about him.
- I did find out that his expertise was in radiology -- which seems to me like an expertise useful in discovering anomalies in the weave.
- I'll be back to further discuss Delorenzi's credibility, and what he said.
- He might be a drunken sailor, but he might be saying that he saw a whale, and we probably shouldn't be dismissing his testimony.
Please read my above post. Also I would point out that the proper analogy is that Deloenzi was a Nebraska farmer who claimed to see a tiger in the wheat on his farm; he neighbors interpreted that to state that he probably had seen a whale in the wheat. Wrong expertise and a statement that had nothing to do with the invisible patch you need to establish to discredit the 14 C evidence, which as pointed out multiple times, would still leave you without any proof of the authenticity of the SOT.

Continuing with Delorenzi would have to be interpreted as a clear attempt to avoid any substantial discussion of the authenticity of the SOT. It would not be doing your viewpoint a favor. Please let us know if this is the best evidence you have so that we can weigh your arguments appropriately.
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:24 AM   #1724
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Can you give me the links you used?
Shouldn't you have done that research before bringing him up?
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:25 AM   #1725
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...
Further (and more injurious to your case), the quote you offer does not refer to "invisible" reweaving, or "near-invisible" reweaving, or "undetecable" repair, nor even "...some patching" at the sampling site; instead, it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ (that M&P mis-dated)...
- Why do you say that it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ?
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:29 AM   #1726
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Why do you say that it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ?
I'm guessing because he read more than you did but I'd hate to judge before all the facts are in.
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:30 AM   #1727
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Can you give me the links you used?
Why should anyone do your homework? Especially Slowvehicle, who has treated you most respectfully FOR YEARS, and has gotten nothing but your scorn in return?
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:40 AM   #1728
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Why do you say that it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ?
Probably because he did not write that he saw a patch in the area of the 14C test, and because he could not see from his distance from the SOT the "near invisible patch" that you require to negate the 14C evidence; you know, the "patch" that was not seen under a microscope by the experts who were chosen by the Vatican to find a patch free area.
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:41 AM   #1729
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Why do you say that it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ?
Please show us some evidence that the CIQ is authentic before you get the whole classroom in trouble again.
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Last edited by John Jones; 29th November 2015 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:52 AM   #1730
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Why do you say that it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ?

Because the quotation from Delorenzi that you have provided says nothing about any previously undetected and undocumented repairs; it just says that he got the impression that more people had been involved in the repairs than had been documented. That is not a statement that he thinks that there are more repairs than had been identified. He is clearly talking about repairs that are visible enough for differences in the needlework to be apparent.

Can you provide a quotation from Delorenzi in which he says that he thinks there might be previously undetected and undocumented repairs on the shroud?

ETA: Let's go back to the gold mine analogy. If I provide you with a lot of gold-free rocks that I say have been extracted from the mine with a pick axe, you are not going to consider that to be evidence that there is gold in the mine. Are you really going to be any more impressed if I get a radiologist to say that he gets the impression that some of them were extracted using a hammer and chisel?
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Last edited by Mojo; 29th November 2015 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:53 AM   #1731
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Can you give me the links you used?
My Dear Mr. Savage:

-Can you explain to me why I should do your homework...yet another time?

Sincerely,

&ct.
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:54 AM   #1732
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Why do you say that it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ?
Because that is what the quote says. It refers to 'the repairs' that were carried out by the Poor Clares, the blessed Valfre and the Princess Clotilde, and his (Delorenzi's) impression of more hands involved in them.

I expect that you still have access to the pdf of M&P's paper, so you can see the reference for yourself.
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Last edited by Agatha; 29th November 2015 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 29th November 2015, 10:56 AM   #1733
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Why do you say that it refers to the open and notorious patching on the rest of the CIQ?
My Dear Mr. Savage:

Did you read the quote from the Good Professor, in the record as item 1 in the M&P paper?

Did you read Agatha's posts about it? (ETA: Including, but by no mean limited to, the most recent, just above?)

Sincerely,

&ct.
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Last edited by Slowvehicle; 29th November 2015 at 10:58 AM. Reason: more credit to Agatha
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Old 29th November 2015, 11:03 AM   #1734
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Savage:

-Can you explain to me why I should do your homework...yet another time?

Sincerely,

&ct.
- Yeah.
- By doing so, you could speed things up.
- Also, in this case, you'd be providing your evidence for your claims.
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Old 29th November 2015, 11:15 AM   #1735
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.
- By doing so, you could speed things up.
- Also, in this case, you'd be providing your evidence for your claims.
My Dear Mr. Savage:

What an odd thing for you to say. The irony is almost palpable.

...if I provide you the source I used, will you read it? Will you read all of it? (Unlike the last times I took some pains to provide sources for you...)

I mean, honestly: You have not even read your own sources.

Now, about this "providing evidence for your claims" idea; suppose you do so?

On to item #2, if you would...

Sincerely,

&ct.
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Old 29th November 2015, 11:15 AM   #1736
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.
- By doing so, you could speed things up.
- Also, in this case, you'd be providing your evidence for your claims.
The more salient question is why are you throwing things out as evidence that you clearly have not researched?
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Old 29th November 2015, 11:20 AM   #1737
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.
- By doing so, you could speed things up.
- Also, in this case, you'd be providing your evidence for your claims.

Jabba, what would speed things up would be for you to admit that your quotation from Delorenzi says nothing about undetected repairs to the sampled area, or indeed anywhere on the cloth. It doesn't matter what his qualifications are or how he arrived at his "impression"; it cannot support your case. It is not relevant here.

Item #1 is done. Please move on to item #2.
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Old 29th November 2015, 11:20 AM   #1738
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Savage:

-Can you explain to me why I should do your homework...yet another time?

Sincerely,

&ct.

Indeed. Why should anyone do a certain person's homework on the authenticity of the CIQ- which is the topic of this thread - when this certain person won't do his own homework?
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Old 29th November 2015, 11:21 AM   #1739
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.
- By doing so, you could speed things up.
- Also, in this case, you'd be providing your evidence for your claims.
It's your claim, Jabba, you have the burden of proof. You brought Delorenzi's quote (and M&P's strange interpretation of it in their error ridden paper) into the discussion.

If you can explain how, reading the quote and only the words of the quote, you can get it to refer to invisible or undocumented repairs, then do so.
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Old 29th November 2015, 12:03 PM   #1740
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.
- By doing so, you could speed things up.
- Also, in this case, you'd be providing your evidence for your claims.
- 1. I hardly think it's possible. You have made zero progress in 4 years. If 40 years were to pass, I still don't think we'd see any evidence of you supporting your claims.

- 2. The a priori claims are yours, and you have never provided an iota of respectable evidence in all this time.

Get busy! Best of luck!

ETA: We don't want to get called for being off topic, so please, Jabba, will you at long-last present some supporting evidence that the CIQ is authentic?
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Old 29th November 2015, 12:13 PM   #1741
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Edited by kmortis:  Removed off topic material and responses to same


Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Instead, I'm going back to Delorenzi and further explore his expertise, etc.
Sorry, but no. You do not disrespectfully get to dismiss with a mere handwave all of the actual facts about Enzo, his statement and his area of expertise.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
You guys could speed things up by telling me where you find your info about him.
Really? How disrespectful. Every participant in this thread managed to trivially find this data with one exception...you. None of us here is your personal internet slave. That you would suggest such is, at least to me, a most scurrilous notion. I suspect I am not alone in this feeling.


Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I did find out that his expertise was in radiology
You don't say. We have all been telling you this forever.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
-- which seems to me like an expertise useful in discovering anomalies in the weave.
Well, it might, had the guy ever x-rayyed the cloth, but he never did so the point is moot.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'll be back to further discuss Delorenzi's credibility, and what he said.
What you should actually be doing is conceding that point #1 has been thoroughly demolished and moving on to point #2.

But I bet you won't.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- He might be a drunken sailor, but he might be saying that he saw a whale, and we probably shouldn't be dismissing his testimony.
Really? If he had claimed the saw a mermaid riding a unicorn would you say that we should give that claim any consideration?

Here is a summation for you Jabba...

1. Enzo is/was a consultant medical radiologist.
2. Enzo never subjected the CIQ to any radiological examination
3. Enzo's chosen metier is thus rendered moot.
4. Enzo's baseless opinion that more hands were involved in the visible patches is A) a non expert opinion and B) utterly irrelevant to the question of authenticity.

Now, let me put on my tinfoil hat here, Jabba, and make some predictions:

1. You will initially ignore this post.
2. When confronted with this, you will seek some sentence or phrase which you will wilfully misconstrue as an insult in some way shape or form.
3. You will then declare victory, Pyrrhic as it may be.
4. You will repeat this disrespectful behaviour with regard to every other respondent.

How might I know this, you might ask of me, Jabba. I can answer that. Evidence. You have a four year history in this very thread of this very behaviour, all documented, all recorded.
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Old 29th November 2015, 12:15 PM   #1742
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Instead, I'm going back to Delorenzi and further explore his expertise, etc. You guys could speed things up by telling me where you find your info about him.
- I did find out that his expertise was in radiology -- which seems to me like an expertise useful in discovering anomalies in the weave.
Did he have magical x-ray eyes? That might have been useful. Maybe there's a link that tells you about this?
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Old 29th November 2015, 12:32 PM   #1743
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Originally Posted by Mashuna View Post
Did he have magical x-ray eyes? That might have been useful. Maybe there's a link that tells you about this?
Funny enough there is. IIRC it's something like Marvel Comics.
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Old 29th November 2015, 04:00 PM   #1744
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
By doing so, you could speed things up.
Correct placement of the burden of proof outweighs that concern. Further, if time was so much of the essence, why didn't you do your homework before being graded on it? Your preparation (or obvious lack thereof) is part of the argument, and may be cause to decided it against you. This isn't a group effort where we work together to discover the truth. You are being evaluated and judged according to your ability to present and defend your arguments. Behave accordingly.

Quote:
Also, in this case, you'd be providing your evidence for your claims.
Actually his "claims" are pretty much the null hypothesis. Delorenzi is your witness. You have the burden to show he is everything he needs to be in order for his statement to be valid as the evidence you claim it is. It is your responsibility to discover what facts, if any, the "impression" is based on. Someone else noting that no such facts are evident is not a "claim" -- it is merely to state the status quo of any unsupported claim. It is your responsibility to discover what expertise your witness actually possesses. Someone else noting that he appears to be qualified only in an unrelated field is not a "claim." And you should be alarmed that you know far less about your witnesses than do your critics. It is a fairly strong indictment of your methods and reasoning. It is your responsibility to tie Delorenzi's statement to the conclusion you say it supports. Someone else noting that no such connection has yet been established is not a "claim."

In other words, it should be abundantly apparent to you at this juncture that none of your critics here is going to accept a burden of proof that rightly belongs to you, and no one is going to let you shift it away from you under any pretext. So in order to speed things up, please stop all of these rhetorical shenanigans and stick to the point.

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Old 29th November 2015, 04:07 PM   #1745
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Why would I want to speed things up? I am perfectly happy with where we are: the SOT is a fake. And I don't see any hint that we are even pointed in another future direction.

Any evidence to the contrary would be Jabba's to find and provide.
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Old 29th November 2015, 04:43 PM   #1746
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
Why would I want to speed things up?
Agreed. I would rather have Jabba take a six-month hiatus and return having researched all of Marino & Prior's claims to the point where he felt confident he could present and defend them in a hostile forum. The way it stands, he can write off some eventual defeat as a product of his unpreparedness, and that the conclusions themselves are still plausible. Jabba has confessed reasons to distrust those authors.
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Old 30th November 2015, 07:57 AM   #1747
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/Delorenzi

Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
Because that is what the quote says. It refers to 'the repairs' that were carried out by the Poor Clares, the blessed Valfre and the Princess Clotilde, and his (Delorenzi's) impression of more hands involved in them.

I expect that you still have access to the pdf of M&P's paper, so you can see the reference for yourself.
- OK...
- You guys have convinced me that I am probably wrong about the Delorenzi 'evidence.'
- I'll be back.
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Old 30th November 2015, 08:01 AM   #1748
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK...
- You guys have convinced me that I am probably wrong about the Delorenzi 'evidence.'
- I'll be back.
My Dear Mr. Savage:

"Probably"?

Did you pursue the source I sent you?

Yours,

&ct.
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Old 30th November 2015, 08:06 AM   #1749
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
You guys have convinced me that I am probably wrong about the Delorenzi 'evidence.'
I'm afraid we're going to need more commitment than that. Is your new conviction strong enough for us to leave point no. 1 behind and move on to point no. 2? We have to ask because it's just as likely you're trying to squelch criticism for now, with every intent to "reset" Delorenzi at some later time. Zooterkin was right in cautioning me above: we have to make sure you don't try to retread the same ground later. Therefore we're going to need a clear answer that we can link back to in the unfortunate event you try to reset the argument.
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Old 30th November 2015, 08:37 AM   #1750
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK...
- You guys have convinced me that I am probably wrong about the Delorenzi 'evidence.'
- I'll be back.
Good, now, can you learn from it?

Because remember, you didn't come up with that source on your own. It was from a different source. THEY were the ones who were peddling Delorenzi, and you just parroted their recommendation without thinking about it.

However, now you discover that this source that they were peddling turned out to be a bust. Yes, it tells you that he is probably not a good source. BUT it ALSO tells you that your other source, the one you relied upon in the first place, is also suspect. They are demonstrably misleading. They lied to you.

Now, if you are honest, you will admit that it is not just Delorenzi who you can't believe, you also can't believe the source that tried to use Delorenzi in the first place. Anyone who holds Delorenzi up as an expert witness has not done adequate analysis, and therefore cannot be considered reliable in this, nor in anything. Every claim they make has to be verified independently, which means they are worthless as a source.

That's the lesson of this encounter. Will you learn it?
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Old 30th November 2015, 08:48 AM   #1751
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
You guys have convinced me
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Old 30th November 2015, 09:07 AM   #1752
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK...
- You guys have convinced me that I am probably wrong about the Delorenzi 'evidence.'
- I'll be back.
Well, not bad, that, ... for someone who generally accepts "probably", "maybe", and "possibly" as strong evidence....

OK, next.

Hans
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Old 30th November 2015, 09:45 AM   #1753
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post

Professor of Whole Cloth, apparently.
That was aswesome.
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Old 30th November 2015, 09:50 AM   #1754
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Bet the dropping of Delorenzi with accurate reason why does not make the fantasy map on Jabba's website.
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Old 30th November 2015, 09:57 AM   #1755
ferd burfle
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, not bad, that, ... for someone who generally accepts "probably", "maybe", and "possibly" as strong evidence....

OK, next.

Hans

Only 30 more to go. Will there be a break for lunch?
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Old 30th November 2015, 10:39 AM   #1756
MRC_Hans
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Originally Posted by ferd burfle View Post
Only 30 more to go. Will there be a break for lunch?
Considering Jabba's standard mode of operation, there will be plenty of breaks, both for meals and for naps.

Hans
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Old 30th November 2015, 01:00 PM   #1757
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Originally Posted by Jabba
...snip...
Edited by jsfisher:  Moderated content redacted.

Please move on to point 2 of your latest evidence of authenticity
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Last edited by jsfisher; 30th November 2015 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 30th November 2015, 03:42 PM   #1758
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Considering Jabba's standard mode of operation, there will be plenty of breaks, both for meals and for naps.

Hans
Vacations and sabbaticals too.
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Old 30th November 2015, 05:34 PM   #1759
John Jones
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Originally Posted by Wolrab View Post
Vacations and sabbaticals too.
The subject here is The Miracle of the Shroud. Jabba will be back to post any imaginable claim or twisted logic to support authenticity on this, The Miracle of the Shroud thread.

It will almost always be a waste of electrons, but it will always be on the topic of The Miracle of the Shroud - except when it isn't.

So back on topic: Has anyone got compelling evidence for the authenticity of the CIQ?
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Old 1st December 2015, 03:15 AM   #1760
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK...
- You guys have convinced me that I am probably wrong about the Delorenzi 'evidence.'
- I'll be back.
So does probably mean Delorenzi is now to be considered weak or indirect evidence?
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