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Tags shroud of turin

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Old 5th December 2015, 03:09 AM   #1841
aleCcowaN
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Spend enough time among some of the die-hard Italian Catholics and you'll realize the reason for clinging has nothing to do with evidence. Some of the rural Italians I knew had such a warped and superstitious interpretation of Catholicism that it was sometimes scary.
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post

I was speaking tongue-in-cheek earlier about the Holy Foreskin relics, but look: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce

My mother-in-law is devoutly Roman Catholic, and cites Nostradamus as though he were a saint.
My janitor-in-law (or whatever) is a devoted Buddhist, but has a home shrine for Shintoist deities. Rural Indians worship a blue god with an elephant proboscis, in a twisted interpretation of the deep philosophy of Hinduism.

You are simply not getting it, I mean, what religion is in a human scale. Your protestant backgrounds -be it personal or environmental- have brainwashed you. You're used to Catholicism "the """"American""""" way" (or Canadian, or Australian, or British), which is just "Catholicism under the spotlight of Protestantism" and has to do with Catholicism as much as Spanish spoken in the United States has to do with Spanish: one is a stereotyped, shaming, primitive, contaminated and generally limited set of dialects of the real deal.

Like many Atheist Jews -oxymoronic as it sounds- who don't believe a **** in Jehovah but love rituals and everything-Sionist, the levels of belief and their connection with main stream religions are in the real world pretty free and basically independent.

Jabba's lucky charm -the shroud- is just that. He's not claiming it's authentic (show me when he says "IT IS"). Phrases like "leaning towards authenticity" aren't a politically correct way to write down absolutes. They are, contradictory as they may sound, Jabba's hic et nunc: the present value the shroud has to him. I'm positive Jabba doesn't hold any structured belief about what God really is, afterlife and judgement. I'm positive he doesn't believe in a heaven that matches the epistemological level of a "real shroud of The Christ".
It wouldn't surprise me that he even might not believe in heaven or eternal life at all.

Believe me, the communicating vessels linking relics as lucky charms and Christian philosophy are way more twisted and clogged than you think. It's Christianity and Islam that invented and promoted the logic of "if there is one God, the other gods are false and their temples must be burnt" (reserving a secondary deity called "Devil" just to fill some gaps), but essential religiosity and magical thinking were partially preserved (like it happens everywhere else in the World).

It's Protestantism which in the Christian world introduced "it's me and my bible", "faith is enough" and a set of self-absorbed notions that has even created a culture where some say "only a bunch of us will get box in the heavenly theatre" or even "the bible doesn't say what I want; I'm gonna write my own one". ISIS is one of many mirroring counterparts in the Muslim world.

Don't dwell in such a perverse cultural frame. And if anyone is wrong, ask yourselves what are you doing here keeping warm this thread, waking Jabba's numen until it magically comes again to life the third day.
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Old 5th December 2015, 07:10 AM   #1842
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Originally Posted by Christian Klippel View Post
My tiny, unimportant prediction:

now that Jabba has been suspended for a few days, if he ever comes back he will complain about how unfair he was treated, despite all the evidence.

"The shroud is true, i was _sooo_ close to proving it by meticulous reserch, and then they cut me off"

Alternatively:

"Not only the users are rude there, but the mods as well! How can anyone have a fair deabte that way!"

If not here, he will put it that way elsewhere. Won't be the first time he misrepresented stuff. Heck, he can't even faithfully quote stuff, after all...

Greetings,

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I checked yesterday and it doesn't look like he used his free time to declare victory by default in his site.
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Old 5th December 2015, 08:43 AM   #1843
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Originally Posted by Christian Klippel View Post
My tiny, unimportant prediction:

now that Jabba has been suspended for a few days, if he ever comes back he will complain about how unfair he was treated, despite all the evidence.

"The shroud is true, i was _sooo_ close to proving it by meticulous reserch, and then they cut me off"
That would be pretty inconsistent with his behavior here so far. The style is insinuation, not declaration or proclamation.
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Old 5th December 2015, 10:35 AM   #1844
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Studies of in-the-trenches Catholicism in the backward parts of Europe would be very interesting, and worth pursuing far beyond anything still remaining here in Jabbaland.
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Old 5th December 2015, 10:40 AM   #1845
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Well, he's back now. No-doubt reading only the first sentence of every post since his vacation.
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Old 5th December 2015, 03:01 PM   #1846
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Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove FMF content


- I tend to be slow in my thinking (Slow, but deep?), and in trying to speed up I make more mistakes than usual...
- Anyway, the M&P "Entries" add up to 57 altogether. At this point, I accept that if Entry #1 in the first paper is significant, M&P didn't support its validity well enough to allow it to be considered in consilience (that's probably not the correct way to describe what I'm thinking, but hopefully, you'll know what I mean).
- Let's see if #2 is any better.
- I'll be back.
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Old 5th December 2015, 03:13 PM   #1847
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Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove FMF content


Can you please provide some evidence of a 2000 YO CIQ before you get another time-out?
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Old 5th December 2015, 03:27 PM   #1848
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove FMF content


- I tend to be slow in my thinking (Slow, but deep?), and in trying to speed up I make more mistakes than usual...
- Anyway, the M&P "Entries" add up to 57 altogether. At this point, I accept that if Entry #1 in the first paper is significant, M&P didn't support its validity well enough to allow it to be considered in consilience (that's probably not the correct way to describe what I'm thinking, but hopefully, you'll know what I mean).
- Let's see if #2 is any better.
- I'll be back.
If you actually had any evidence for your beliefs it might help you stay on topic. When you are in a constant battle to avoid answering questions that paint you into a stark corner where you must admit this, off topic distraction is understandable. You may well think deep on other topics but it's clear your research and consideration on this subject is at the toddlers' end of the pool.

Looking forward to more abject failure on your point number two.
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Last edited by Agatha; 6th December 2015 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 5th December 2015, 03:41 PM   #1849
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove FMF content
Anyway, the M&P "Entries" add up to 57 altogether.
Asked and answered. Numbers do not make consilience. Consilience is a qualitative proposition. Further, you've all but conceded that your authors have padded their entries.

Quote:
I accept that if Entry #1 in the first paper is significant, M&P didn't support its validity well enough...
Asked and answered. No one is interested in your speculation on why Marino and Prior changed horses. But given your admission that they are not good reporters, we have asked what you personally have done, prior to basing an argument on their other work, to ascertain that they have fairly reported their sources. Please describe in detail the process you used to verify your authors' reporting.

Quote:
...to be considered in consilience (that's probably not the correct way to describe what I'm thinking, but hopefully, you'll know what I mean).
I don't think you know what you mean. You keep throwing around this new word you've learned as if it somehow salvages your argument. As already explained, you cannot make an argument by consilience from the Addendum. Do not attempt one without first addressing that explanation.

Quote:
Let's see if #2 is any better.
As requested, please indicate your familiarity with your authors' source material before continuing.

Last edited by Agatha; 6th December 2015 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 5th December 2015, 03:55 PM   #1850
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Jay,

- I tend to be slow in my thinking (Slow, but deep?), Sluggish and shallow and in trying to speed up I make more mistakes than usual... [...].

- I'll be back.
It is hard to believe you could make more mistakes than you already do.
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Old 5th December 2015, 04:19 PM   #1851
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Edited by Agatha:  Edited to remove FMF content
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Old 5th December 2015, 04:30 PM   #1852
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Mr Savage,

How is your Shroud Blog cleanup going? That is one disreputable example of a dog's breakfast if there ever was one.

Please give us progress reports as you work on cleaning-up that mess.
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Old 5th December 2015, 04:40 PM   #1853
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
[...]



I don't think you know what you mean. You keep throwing around this new word [consilience]you've learned as if it somehow salvages your argument. [...]
Bingo!

Mr Savage, behold: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consilience
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Old 6th December 2015, 03:27 AM   #1854
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Another way to look at consillience would be if you had multiple independent lines of evidence to say the Shroud is inauthentic. If you had carbon dating, historical, typology, Anatomy all saying it was inauthentic....oh wait, we do have all that.
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Old 6th December 2015, 08:28 AM   #1855
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Another way to look at consillience would be if you had multiple independent lines of evidence to say the Shroud is inauthentic. If you had carbon dating, historical, typology, Anatomy all saying it was inauthentic....oh wait, we do have all that.
Hm. I agree with the thrust of this, but I think I'd frame it more as that consilience showing that the Shroud is indeed authentic- authentically medieval. Otherwise, you give someone like Jabba an opening to claim that you're trying to use consilience to prove a negative ("not authentic"). It's up to him to make his positive case for a 1st century origin, contra the positive case for a medieval one.
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Old 6th December 2015, 09:03 AM   #1856
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Originally Posted by turingtest View Post
Hm. I agree with the thrust of this, but I think I'd frame it more as that consilience showing that the Shroud is indeed authentic- authentically medieval. Otherwise, you give someone like Jabba an opening to claim that you're trying to use consilience to prove a negative ("not authentic"). It's up to him to make his positive case for a 1st century origin, contra the positive case for a medieval one.
True, of course. However, for any ancient artefact, the null hypothesis is "age unknown, origin unknown". So any evidence that points to an age and/or origin is positive.

And in this light, it is indeed, as Jabba wants, it a question of weighing evidence in the case of conflicting hypotheses. Unfortunately for Jabba, all the weight turns out to be for a medieval origin.

Hans
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Old 7th December 2015, 05:48 PM   #1857
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*Crickets Chirping*
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Old 8th December 2015, 04:01 AM   #1858
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The support group for those suffering jabbatic withdrawal synd(r)one is over there. Others can continue to enjoy the deafening chanting of logic, and common sense, and decency, now preponderant here.
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Old 8th December 2015, 05:03 AM   #1859
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/M&P/Repair/#2

From http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/chronology.pdf
Entry: #2
Date: 1976
Data Category: Evidence of anomalous nature of C-14 corner & Possibility or direct evidence
of invisible reweaving
Evidence: Textile expert Gilbert Raes of Belgium, who extracted a sample in 1973 for analysis,
wrote in his report that he found cotton. Raes also noted, ―The thread used for sewing the two
pieces [designated ―Piece 1‖ and ―Piece 2‖] together is…twisted in an S-direction, whereas the
individual threads are twisted in a Z-direction.
Source: Raes, Gilbert. ―Appendix B – Analysis Report: Pl. II-III—Subject: Examination of the
‗Sindone‘‖. In Doyle, E., M.Green, Fr., & V. Ossola (Trans.) Report of Turin Commission on the
Holy Shroud (pp. 108-123), 1976. Unpublished. Translation of La S. Sindone: Ricerche e studi
della Commissione di Esperti nominate dall‘Arcivescovo di Torino, Card. Michele Pellegrino,
nel.
Comments: The Raes sample is highly significant due to its thorough examination and adjacent
location to the C-14 sample area. Given the stark differences between yarns found in the Raes‘
2
Pieces 1 and 2, combined with the existence of the sewing thread, which connected the two
disparate materials, Benford and Marino hypothesize that Piece 2 was the original Shroud
material/seam and Piece 1 was a cotton-containing patch made to resemble the original Shroud
cloth. (See: ―Surface Chemical Analysis of the Shroud of Turin Identifies Discrepancies in
Radiocarbon Dating Region‖ by M. Sue Benford and Joseph Marino, presented at the ―The
Shroud of Turin: Perspectives on a Multi-Faceted Enigma‖ conference in Columbus, Ohio on
August 14-17th
2008, which will be accessible online at www.ohioshroudconference.com by
January 1, 2009). Each piece exhibits different characteristics, such as cotton content, lignin
content at the growth nodes, and thread size, suggesting two different origins of the yarns. The
continuous, fully-observable sewing thread represents a significant change of technique, and
suggests this section of thread, which incorporated the Raes sample and C-14 sample areas, was
applied from the top instead of the reverse of the cloth. This further implies the two sections of
sewing threads (C-14 region versus main Shroud) were applied at different times and by different
artisans with the main Shroud stitching possibly from the same time period as a cloth from
Masada in Israel, dated to BC 40 to AD 73 [M. Flury-Lemberg, Mechthild, Sindon N.S. Quad. 16
(Dec 2001., pg. 60)]. Raes himself would not commit in his report to a specific time period for
the origin of the cloth. Regarding the S-direction versus the Z-direction, Raes is referring to the
connection between the fabric and the seam; the two different twists indicate the existence of two
different kinds of cloth. (See entry number 13 in this section.)

Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
...
Entry#2 refers to the sewing thread used to join two pieces together, and notes that it's different from the cloth. Sewing thread is almost always different from the cloth on which it's being used. This does not refer to the sampled area...
Agatha,
- Do you accept that the results of the study on the Raes sample suggests that it had been repaired?
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Old 8th December 2015, 05:10 AM   #1860
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
<suppositionsnip>
Agatha,
- Do you accept that the results of the study on the Raes sample suggests that it had been repaired?
Good Morning, Mr. Savage:

You are still dealing in "suggestion" and conjecture. Did you ever read this source?
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Old 8th December 2015, 05:54 AM   #1861
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Jabba, this is from the citation Slowvehicle provided above:

Quote:
Where exactly had the patch been attached? How big was it? Was it so small that it covered only the sample area? Answers to these questions are lacking in the hypothesis of Benford/Marino and Rogers. They can only be given in a competent way by textile experts. One of them, who was present when the sample was taken, the late Gabriel Vial, confirmed repeatedly that the sample was taken from the original cloth!
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Old 8th December 2015, 07:02 AM   #1862
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
We've dealt with this rubbish before.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Do you accept that the results of the study on the Raes sample suggests that it had been repaired?
No. There is no magic patch that can save you from the reality of the shroud's medieval origin.
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Old 8th December 2015, 07:03 AM   #1863
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Jabba, this is from the citation Slowvehicle provided above:
Exactly. Examination both before and after the sample was removed showed no sign of any patch.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 8th December 2015, 07:21 AM   #1864
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm going to switch over to considering the entries to M&P's Addendum for significant evidence-- something I should have done before. In their addendum, they don't even include the Delorenzi impression.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/addendum.pdf
Why did you say that when you promptly did this?
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
From http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/chronology.pdf
[i]Entry: #2
Date: 1976
Data Category: Evidence of anomalous nature of C-14 corner & Possibility or direct evidence
of invisible reweaving
<snip for brevity>
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Old 8th December 2015, 07:29 AM   #1865
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Data Category: Evidence of anomalous nature of C-14 corner & Possibility or direct evidence of invisible reweaving
If you're going to appeal to magic, why not just say it's magic?
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Old 8th December 2015, 08:10 AM   #1866
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
You were asked to indicate your familiarity with Marino and Prior's source material before proceeding. You were told several times why that was desirable. Are you simply ignoring that request? Shall we assume from your by-now deliberate avoidance of the question that the answer is the one least favorable to your position -- i.e., that you are unfamiliar with the sources?
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Old 8th December 2015, 09:38 AM   #1867
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Evidence - Expert Judgment/M&P/Repair/#2

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Why did you say that when you promptly did this?
Abaddon,
- I don't do anything promptly.
- I screwed up there. I won't bother explaining, but for now, I'll put M&P's Addendum aside.
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Old 8th December 2015, 09:52 AM   #1868
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Explain it on your fantasy map of the discussion.
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Old 8th December 2015, 09:54 AM   #1869
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Abaddon,
- I don't do anything promptly.
- I screwed up there. I won't bother explaining, but for now, I'll put M&P's Addendum aside.
Good Morning, Mr. Savage:

I strongly recommend that you ever read this source, as a starting point.

Sincerely,

Yours, &ct.
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Old 8th December 2015, 10:07 AM   #1870
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Accepting that no single entry is especially 'meaty,' I want to work my way through each entry to see if I can develop some meaningful consilience. I'll have to go back over your different objections and see if I can answer them. I'll start with #1 in the addendum.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm going to switch over to considering the entries to M&P's Addendum for significant evidence-- something I should have done before. In their addendum, they don't even include the Delorenzi impression.

http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/addendum.pdf
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Abaddon,
- I don't do anything promptly.
- I screwed up there. I won't bother explaining, but for now, I'll put M&P's Addendum aside.

So, what did all that achieve?
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Old 8th December 2015, 10:26 AM   #1871
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Old 8th December 2015, 12:29 PM   #1872
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Abaddon,
- I don't do anything promptly.
Perhaps one might consider the word "promptly" to be hyperbole given the glacial nature of this thread. Nevertheless, having had point #1 and Delorenzi thoroughly eviscerated, you abandoned the chronology document like the proverbial hot potato, instead preferring to move on to the addendum document which entirely ignores the Delorenzi fiasco. Fine, you have set aside the chronology document.


Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I screwed up there.
Well colour me in a rainbow of surprise.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I won't bother explaining,
My unicorn needs diapers.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
but for now, I'll put M&P's Addendum aside.
So now, not only have you set aside the chronology document, you have set aside the addendum as well and are vaguely, without explanation trying to rehabilitate the chronology by stealth.

Sorry, Jabba, you choose to throw the chronology document under the bus. Everyone agreed to address it point by point. We got as far as #1 and then you moved on to the addendum.

Now you are attempting to throw the addendum under the bus in the hopes of reviving the still twitching corpse of the chronology document.
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Old 8th December 2015, 12:49 PM   #1873
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Effective DebateTM at its finest.
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Old 8th December 2015, 01:38 PM   #1874
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This thread is like a soap opera of the absurd. What preposterousness will Jabba pull next?
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Old 8th December 2015, 01:47 PM   #1875
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Follow the little ball in #1871 and you'll get the answer.
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Old 8th December 2015, 01:59 PM   #1876
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Abaddon,
- I don't do anything promptly.
- I screwed up there. I won't bother explaining, but for now, I'll put M&P's Addendum aside.
FTFY

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Old 8th December 2015, 02:22 PM   #1877
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Follow the little ball in #1871 and you'll get the answer.
Are you attempting to Escher the thread?

Here is where we are at. I will number these because Effective DebateTM

1. Jabba proposes that the chronology document is somehow authoritative.
-1.1 Jabba proposes that the points contained therein be addressed one at a time.

- 1.2 We all start with point #1 and show #1 to be utterly without merit.

- 1.3 Jabba abandons without moving along to #2.

2.0 Jabba decides to move to the addendum.

- 2.1 The addendum gets similarly debunked for the rot it is.

- 2.2 Jabba abandons the addendum.

- 2.3 Jabba declines to provide any explanation.

3.0 Jabba returns to the chronology document as though nothing at all happened.

Now, Jabba, before you start complaining, this is an accurate description of what actually happened right here in this very thread composed according to those rules that you seek to impose yet refuse to follow.

So I ask you, what is one to do with this as an honest poster?
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Old 8th December 2015, 02:38 PM   #1878
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Don't forget that Jabba justified his decision to abandon the chronology for the addendum with the hypothesis that Marino and Prior also realized the chronology lacked rigor.
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Old 8th December 2015, 02:42 PM   #1879
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Are you attempting to Escher the thread?

Here is where we are at. I will number these because Effective DebateTM

1. Jabba proposes that the chronology document is somehow authoritative.
-1.1 Jabba proposes that the points contained therein be addressed one at a time.

- 1.2 We all start with point #1 and show #1 to be utterly without merit.

- 1.3 Jabba abandons without moving along to #2.

2.0 Jabba decides to move to the addendum.

- 2.1 The addendum gets similarly debunked for the rot it is.

- 2.2 Jabba abandons the addendum.

- 2.3 Jabba declines to provide any explanation.

3.0 Jabba returns to the chronology document as though nothing at all happened.
Exactly what the animation depicts. When you say "he abandons" I only see him changing planes -not the ones with wings-. He has managed to derail this thread repeatedly by turning 90 Escherian degrees to the right and addressing other poster in order to set the fake debate into its new direction to in turn do the same again. He derails the thread not by being not responsive or ambiguous, which is not a violation of the MA per se, but by making false promises deliberately: he feigns to yield and offers a promise of an argumentation just to repeat what he has spammed before -also a MA violation- to turn course again when he is being entrapped by his own empty argumentation.
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These fora are full of scientists and specialists. Most of them turn back to pumpkins the second they log out.
I got tired of the actual schizophrenics that are taking hold part of the forum and decided to do something about it.
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Old 8th December 2015, 04:37 PM   #1880
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
So, what did all that achieve?

It used up another week, didn't it?

Originally Posted by Monza View Post
Effective DebateTM at its finest.
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