ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags shroud of turin

Closed Thread
Old 10th December 2015, 01:30 PM   #1921
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 14,524
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The distinction is that the goal is not to prove that any particular belief is true, but to claim that any belief may be true without any evidence.
That too is a pattern among fringe claimants. Most very quickly want to bog down in meta-debate over what evidence consists of and what are appropriate standards of proof. It takes a bit of experience to interpret this at the high level and recognize that the claimant is trying to contrive something that seems rigorous enough but avoids any meaningful scrutiny. He wants the standards set so low that even his flimsy nonsense is, by some circuitous construction, sufficient evidence.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 02:35 PM   #1922
Jabba
Illuminator
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,966
Carbon Dating/Doubts/Repair?/M&P/Entry #2

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Savage:

This is notbthe case, at all.

Two experts (one of whom you have reviled for years) examined the CIQ in situ, and determined that there was,no evidence, none, of an "invisible" reweave"; a "near-invisible" repair; nor even "...some patching; in fact, determined that the weave was undisturbed and contiguous (you, personally, admit that you lack this expertise)...
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 02:40 PM   #1923
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 14,524
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
If it's true you have reviled them for years, then you don't need to ask this question. You should already know.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 02:42 PM   #1924
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,483
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
Jabba, try to get it: People are not likely to do your homework for you.

You are the one who wants to prove something; you do the work. Fair enough, isn't it?

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 03:09 PM   #1925
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,992
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
You tell us.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 03:21 PM   #1926
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
My Dear Mr. Savage:

I find this remarkably disrespectful.

I thought you said you had read the .pdf.

It is clear you have not been reading my posts.

What part of "...examined in situ..." do you find opaque?

Go back, and read the .pdf, or the other sources on Mme. F-L that you claimed to be using when you claimed that she "doubted" the 14C dating. Or any one of my last several posts.

I remain,

Faithfully yours, &ct.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 10th December 2015 at 03:22 PM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 03:22 PM   #1927
wollery
Protected by Samurai Hedgehogs!
 
wollery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 10,772
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
That's because you still don't recognize the difference between an inference and an observation. You're positioning Marino and Prior's speculation as if it were qualitatively on par with Flury-Lemberg's observation.

The order in which inference and observation occur is irrelevant; inferences made in defiance of established observation fail forthwith. To put this in the terms of the analogy, if you go out and stand on your dry sidewalk, hear thunder and infer it must be raining, then you're an idiot.
No, this is worse than that.

It's like you're standing on a dry sidewalk watching the clear blue skies, someone near you says they thought they heard distant thunder, and from that you infer that it must be raining right where you are.
__________________
"You're a sick SOB. You know that, Wollery?" - Roadtoad

"Just think how stupid the average person is, and then realize that half of them are even stupider!" --George Carlin
wollery is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 04:32 PM   #1928
Sideroxylon
Featherless biped
 
Sideroxylon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Aporia
Posts: 18,345
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
- What exactly have you been doing over the course of your years researching the CIQ?
__________________
'The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool.' - Richard Feynman
Sideroxylon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 07:05 PM   #1929
Kid Eager
Philosopher
 
Kid Eager's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 6,268
This....

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
only serves to reaffirm this:

Originally Posted by Kid Eager View Post
Apparently. Might have been. I think.

This is not the stuff of evidence; it is the stuff of speculation by a layman.

This topic is dead. It has ceased to be. It's not a Norwegian Blue, it's never going to come back, no matter how many volts you put through it.

What's more galling is we wouldn't have had to waste the past week getting to this point if you'd actually read the cited documents, before submitting them as evidence! I mean who does that? It's just intellectually, logically, and ethically bankrupt.
__________________
What do Narwhals, Magnets and Apollo 13 have in common? Think about it....
Kid Eager is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 07:30 PM   #1930
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,913
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
Research. You got a problem with research?
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 07:32 PM   #1931
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,913
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
- What exactly have you been doing over the course of your years researching the CIQ?
BOOM! Jabba takes a headshot!
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 10th December 2015, 11:43 PM   #1932
MetalPig
Master Poster
 
MetalPig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: 22, Acacia Avenue
Posts: 2,874
Originally Posted by wollery View Post
No, this is worse than that.

It's like you're standing on a dry sidewalk watching the clear blue skies, someone near you says they thought they heard distant thunder, and from that you infer that it must be raining right where you are.
And when you try to convince others that it's raining, they point out that that someone is deaf.
__________________
Just drive.
MetalPig is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 04:33 AM   #1933
Mojo
Mostly harmless
 
Mojo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 29,753
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Research. You got a problem with research?

If that question isn't rhetorical, you haven't been paying attention.
__________________
"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield

"The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky
Mojo is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 04:37 AM   #1934
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,992
Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Research. You got a problem with research?
This is an entirely valid question. From someone who is supposed to have spent a lot of time studying the CIQ, you don't seem to know much about it.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 04:37 AM   #1935
Jabba
Illuminator
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,966
Discussion Format

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
If it's true you have reviled them for years, then you don't need to ask this question. You should already know.
Jay,
- I haven't reviled anyone. Ask Slowvehicle to provide examples.
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 04:38 AM   #1936
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,569
Originally Posted by Sideroxylon
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
- What exactly have you been doing over the course of your years researching the CIQ?
I do not say this in jest; it is an accurate description of all of Jabba's activities that have led him to believe that he is "the best man in the fight."

1. He has searched for headlines that indicated someone's ideas that the shroud is the authentic burial shroud of the biblical Jesus, avoided reading the actual material, and assumed it is true.

2. He has avoided searching for headlines indicating someone's actual research indicating that the shroud is not the authentic burial shroud of the biblical Jesus.

3. When he has, by chance, come across the items described in #2 despite trying to avoid them, he has avoided reading the actual material and assumed it is not true.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 04:55 AM   #1937
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,913
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Jay,
- I haven't reviled anyone. Ask Slowvehicle to provide examples.
Ahem!
Walter McCrone. You said his work was suspect because he was difficult to work with.
Every 14C Scientists that worked on the CIQ. You called them dishonest and incompetent.
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave

Last edited by John Jones; 11th December 2015 at 04:58 AM.
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 05:14 AM   #1938
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,764
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
If it's true you have reviled them for years, then you don't need to ask this question. You should already know.
Oh, it's true. As Jabba has no evidence of a 2000 year old shroud impugning the reputation of the experts who have clearly demonstrated that the shroud is inauthentic (and scientists in general) was a favourite tactic a while ago. I dare say it'll come around again before too long.
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 05:37 AM   #1939
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,992
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Jay,
- I haven't reviled anyone. Ask Slowvehicle to provide examples.
It's a good thing I wasn't drinking coffee when I read that.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 05:44 AM   #1940
Stuart
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 621
Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
This is an entirely valid question. From someone who is supposed to have spent a lot of time studying the CIQ, you don't seem to know much about it.
I haven't spent a great deal of time researching the TOS, but I believe I know more than Jabba about it.

It is an artwork from around 1300.
Stuart is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 05:52 AM   #1941
Jabba
Illuminator
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,966
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Savage:

I find this remarkably disrespectful.

I thought you said you had read the .pdf.

It is clear you have not been reading my posts.

What part of "...examined in situ..." do you find opaque?

Go back, and read the .pdf, or the other sources on Mme. F-L that you claimed to be using when you claimed that she "doubted" the 14C dating. Or any one of my last several posts.

I remain,

Faithfully yours, &ct.
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 05:55 AM   #1942
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,764
I beg to differ, if it was a deliberate work of art it then the art would be a lot better than it is. It's a slapdash bit of work by a huckster on the make.
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 05:56 AM   #1943
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,764
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
You're the researcher into the shroud, you tell us
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 06:02 AM   #1944
MRC_Hans
Penultimate Amazing
 
MRC_Hans's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 20,483
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
Jabba, this is deeply insulting! You are asking the opposition to dig up information and evidence for you! Are you totally mad?

Of all your antics, this takes the prize.

Hans
__________________
If you love life, you must accept the traces it leaves.
MRC_Hans is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 06:03 AM   #1945
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,913
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
Why you expect anyone here to do your homework after 4 years of your shenanigans is beyond me.
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 07:22 AM   #1946
Craig4
Penultimate Amazing
 
Craig4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Next door to Florida Man, world's worst superhero.
Posts: 14,992
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
So why do you think the CIQ is 2000 years old? You don't know any details about it.
Craig4 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 07:37 AM   #1947
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 14,524
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies...
You've already confessed your incompetence. We don't need a detailed recitation of your failure to do the research required to understand your claims.

Quote:
Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
He does, and he's given you the reference to the document that discusses it, which you obviously have not read. You get no more assistance than that. No one can press your face to the screen and make your eyeballs follow the text.

I have repeatedly asked you to what extent you are familiar with the sources used by your vaunted authors Marino and Prior. You have rudely ignored me. This latest intransigence all but confirms your deliberate unwillingness to acknowledge or answer that question. Since I've asked it several times, in posts you've quoted, I can't accept that you simply missed it. I have to conclude you don't want to answer it because, just as with the sources describing Flury-Lemberg, you're utterly unacquainted with them. You're relying upon those authors to do your homework for you, just as you're begging others here to do your homework for you.

There is no shortcut to erudition. You are not properly equipped to have this debate.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 07:41 AM   #1948
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
My Dear Mr. Savage:

Why, yes, I do know some of what Mme. F-L did when she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting). Why do you ask? Much of her examination was discussed in the very source you used to pretend that Mme. F-L had "doubts" about the 14C dating (back when you were inverting the certainty of percentage).

One of the results of her tests is that Mme. F-L has stated, unequivocally, that the sampled area is part and parcel of the CIQ; that there is no evidence of the "...patching...", the invention of which you have embraced to try to rescue the manifestly medieval bit of linen from the "wrong" date resulting from the most observed instance of 14C dating ever.

As to reviling her, you (who have no experience with textiles at all) have accused her of incompetence, dishonesty, carelessness, duplicity, and complicity in nefarious conspiracy. How is that not more insulting than whatever secret you are keeping about however it is you claim I "insulted" you?

Through it all, I remain,

Faithfully yours, &ct.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 07:43 AM   #1949
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You've already confessed your incompetence. We don't need a detailed recitation of your failure to do the research required to understand your claims.



He does, and he's given you the reference to the document that discusses it, which you obviously have not read. You get no more assistance than that. No one can press your face to the screen and make your eyeballs follow the text.

I have repeatedly asked you to what extent you are familiar with the sources used by your vaunted authors Marino and Prior. You have rudely ignored me. This latest intransigence all but confirms your deliberate unwillingness to acknowledge or answer that question. Since I've asked it several times, in posts you've quoted, I can't accept that you simply missed it. I have to conclude you don't want to answer it because, just as with the sources describing Flury-Lemberg, you're utterly unacquainted with them. You're relying upon those authors to do your homework for you, just as you're begging others here to do your homework for you.

There is no shortcut to erudition
. You are not properly equipped to have this debate.
QFT
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 08:10 AM   #1950
Garrette
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,569
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
You've already confessed your incompetence. We don't need a detailed recitation of your failure to do the research required to understand your claims.



He does, and he's given you the reference to the document that discusses it, which you obviously have not read. You get no more assistance than that. No one can press your face to the screen and make your eyeballs follow the text.

I have repeatedly asked you to what extent you are familiar with the sources used by your vaunted authors Marino and Prior. You have rudely ignored me. This latest intransigence all but confirms your deliberate unwillingness to acknowledge or answer that question. Since I've asked it several times, in posts you've quoted, I can't accept that you simply missed it. I have to conclude you don't want to answer it because, just as with the sources describing Flury-Lemberg, you're utterly unacquainted with them. You're relying upon those authors to do your homework for you, just as you're begging others here to do your homework for you.

There is no shortcut to erudition
. You are not properly equipped to have this debate.
QFT
Balderdash. I have my Facebook newsfeed. Works wonders. As proof I offer the fact that sometimes people Like what I post.
__________________
My kids still love me.
Garrette is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 08:10 AM   #1951
Argumemnon
World Maker
 
Argumemnon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the thick of things
Posts: 68,705
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- What exactly did these two experts do in their examination?
You're really making it up as you go, aren't you?
__________________
渦巻く暗雲天を殺し 現る凶事のうなりか

Argumemnon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 10:37 AM   #1952
Slowvehicle
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator,
Russell's Antinomy
 
Slowvehicle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
My Dear Mr. Savage:

I admit to curiosity about this question.

Since, as you have admitted, you do not have any expertise with textiles; and since, as you have admitted, you do not understand the process of 14C dating; and since, as you have admitted, you do not understand why Rogers' qualitative (as opposed to quantitative) vanilin degradation protocol, performed unobserved (and unrepeatably) in his home kitchen (on specimens of dubious provenance) is probative of almost nothing; why is it that you are asking about what "tests or instruments" Mme. F-L employed?

It is enough, for your purposes, to know that (among other things) Mme. F-L handled the actual CIQ; and looked at the manifestly medieval linen from both sides (in multiple light sources, and even backlit). Her purpose in doing so was, among other things, to look for the evidence of any kind of patching, repair, reweave, or adulteration.

As you, yourself, admitted, even a so-called "invisible" reweaving leaves visible traces on the back of the rewoven fabric (the places where threads overlap, the places where the original threads are severed). That (among other things) is the kind of thing Mme. F-L was looking for.

Of course, all of that is made moot, for your purposes, by the fact ( a fact that you, yourself, provided) that an "invisible" reweave must be wrought with threads from the original cloth; which means that, even if an "invisible" reweave had been wrought it would not have, could not have, influenced the 14C dating (except to make the sample even more representative of the whole CIQ). All of this time you have spent hoping to be able to claim that some "expert" or another conjectures that there "may have been" some kind of repair has missed the point that such a "repair" wpould not have,could not have, affected the 14C dating.

Further, even if the 14C dating were as lame, halt, and invalid as you have wished for, you would still have to overcome the historical, scriptural, anatomical, postural, and physics-related inadequacies of the respresentational image presented on the sized and gessoed surface of the CIQ.

Here is a thought: instead of continuing to try to impugn the 14C dating, why not spend your energy presenting any evidence you can find that the CIQ is, in fact, ~2000 years old?

Through it all, I patiently remain,

Faithfully yours, &ct.
__________________
"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest
"The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David
"Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze

Last edited by Slowvehicle; 11th December 2015 at 11:02 AM.
Slowvehicle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 11th December 2015, 12:30 PM   #1953
Lucian
Illuminator
 
Lucian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,148
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
I'm glad you recognize her as "an esteemed textile expert," but your question about "tests or implements" makes me curious. Are you suggesting that if she simply made a careful examination of the shroud sans backing cloth without performing some sort of scientific test using "implements" that she didn't properly "do a science"? The labs at Arizona, Oxford, and Zurich performed tests on the shroud using an accelerated mass spectrometer, which, as I understand it, is quite an impressive "implement," and you don't like those results at all.
Lucian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th December 2015, 08:59 AM   #1954
Jabba
Illuminator
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,966
Carbon Dating/Doubts/Repair?/M&P/Entry #2

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- All I know about Flury-Lemberg's various studies is that they involved the whole shroud, itself, and that she is an esteemed textile expert. Do you know what tests or implements her examinations included?
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
...He does, and he's given you the reference to the document that discusses it, which you obviously have not read. You get no more assistance than that. No one can press your face to the screen and make your eyeballs follow the text...
Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
My Dear Mr. Savage:

Why, yes, I do know some of what Mme. F-L did when she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting). Why do you ask? Much of her examination was discussed in the very source you used to pretend that Mme. F-L had "doubts" about the 14C dating (back when you were inverting the certainty of percentage)...
- You guys are partially right. I did know that "...she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting)." But otherwise, she's claiming that any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. Yet, the study presented in Entry #2 claimed that when single threads from the Raes sample and C14 sample were examined under the microscope, certain anomalies did show up.
- Currently, I am doing the homework that everyone has suggested that I do, and I'll be back when I finish.
-
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th December 2015, 09:17 AM   #1955
Stuart
Muse
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 621
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- You guys are partially right. I did know that "...she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting)." But otherwise, she's claiming that any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. Yet, the study presented in Entry #2 claimed that when single threads from the Raes sample and C14 sample were examined under the microscope, certain anomalies did show up.
- Currently, I am doing the homework that everyone has suggested that I do, and I'll be back when I finish.
-
This is something that I explained (from personal experience in my my work) in one of the previous incarnations of this thread, but it, along with all the evidence on this thread, has been ignored.
Stuart is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th December 2015, 09:25 AM   #1956
Jabba
Illuminator
 
Jabba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 4,966
Carbon Dating/Doubts/Repair?/M&P/Entry #2

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
...It is enough, for your purposes, to know that (among other things) Mme. F-L handled the actual CIQ; and looked at the manifestly medieval linen from both sides (in multiple light sources, and even backlit). Her purpose in doing so was, among other things, to look for the evidence of any kind of patching, repair, reweave, or adulteration...
Slowvehicle,
- Was she able to look at both sides before the carbon dating? I don't think she was...
- (I have to admit that if I find out that she wasn't, I'll make an unkind suggestion, but we humans (including Mme. F-L) are only human, and we 'seekers of the truth' shouldn't simply dismiss an unkind possibility about someone simply because it is unkind. That sounds familiar...)
__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski
"Most good ideas don't work." Jabba
"Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor
Jabba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th December 2015, 09:34 AM   #1957
Maurice Ledifficile
Lost in translation
 
Maurice Ledifficile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 2,964
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Was she able to look at both sides before the carbon dating? I don't think she was...
- (I have to admit that if I find out that she wasn't, I'll make an unkind suggestion, but we humans (including Mme. F-L) are only human, and we 'seekers of the truth' shouldn't simply dismiss an unkind possibility about someone simply because it is unkind. That sounds familiar...)
What's with the cryptic talk? Can you say what you mean and mean what you say?

Time is up. You've admitted you need a miracle, which means you have abandoned any scientific leanings. Admit your position is based on faith.

I understand you love the idea of a thread going on ad vitam aeternam, but as a self professed christian, you should set the right example and try honesty.
__________________
"There is a plenty of proof, but unfortunately it is entirely unprovable." - Punshhh
"Theres a fine line between fishing and standing on the shore like an idiot." Stephen Wright
Maurice Ledifficile is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th December 2015, 09:35 AM   #1958
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,913
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
[...]
- Currently, I am doing the homework that everyone has suggested that I do, and I'll be back when I finish.
-
I'll believe it when I see it. After all, why start now after 4 years of flying blind?

It's more likely that you'll come back with another red-herring.
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th December 2015, 09:41 AM   #1959
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 11,913
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Slowvehicle,
- Was she able to look at both sides before the carbon dating? I don't think she was...
- (I have to admit that if I find out that she wasn't, I'll make an unkind suggestion, but we humans (including Mme. F-L) are only human, and we 'seekers of the truth' shouldn't simply dismiss an unkind possibility about someone simply because it is unkind. That sounds familiar...)
You've slandered people in the past without any reluctance. Why change that pattern now?

For the record, you've never been a seeker of the truth in regard to the CIQ. You've been a seeker of anything to support your pre-conceived conclusion of authenticity.
__________________
"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave
John Jones is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Old 12th December 2015, 10:50 AM   #1960
Filippo Lippi
Master Poster
 
Filippo Lippi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 2,764
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- You guys are partially right. I did know that "...she examined the CIQ in situ, font and back, by hand an eye, in various light sources (including backlighting)." But otherwise, she's claiming that any repair (except for the real invisible repair using the original cloth) can be detected by the naked eye. Yet, the study presented in Entry #2 claimed that when single threads from the Raes sample and C14 sample were examined under the microscope, certain anomalies did show up.
- Currently, I am doing the homework that everyone has suggested that I do, and I'll be back when I finish.
-
Again you are grotesquely dishonest. You asked someone who carries out "invisible repairs" and they told you that the repairs use the original thread and, not "or," AND are detectable from the front under careful study and are bleeding obvious from the back.
__________________
"You may not know anything about the issue but I bet you reckon something.
So why not tell us what you reckon? Let us enjoy the full majesty of your uninformed, ad hoc reckon..."
David Mitchell
Filippo Lippi is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Back to Top
Closed Thread

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Religion and Philosophy

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:00 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.