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Tags shroud of turin

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Old 22nd December 2015, 10:19 PM   #2201
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I should have posed one claim at a time (and phrased the one slightly differently). Do you accept that in a debate it is very useful to make the specific disagreements as explicit as possible?
Do you agree that honest debate is not possible if one party ignores counter arguments and continually rehashes debunked bald assertions?
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Old 23rd December 2015, 01:36 AM   #2202
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I should have posed one claim at a time (and phrased the one slightly differently). Do you accept that in a debate it is very useful to make the specific disagreements as explicit as possible?
This thread is not about your stupid debating technique
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Old 23rd December 2015, 05:07 AM   #2203
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I should have posed one claim at a time (and phrased the one slightly differently).

Nope. You should have posted your evidence that the shroud is authentic.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 05:12 AM   #2204
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Do you accept that in a debate it is very useful to make the specific disagreements as explicit as possible?

Do you accept that if one side of a debate fails to produce any evidence supporting its position, that side loses?
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Old 23rd December 2015, 06:09 AM   #2205
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I just don't understand. Why the futile effort to keep this losing case alive?
Choose a different relic, or 'miracle' or 'open your heart to Jesus and let him speak to you' or whatever else, build a faith on that, and get on with it.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 08:04 AM   #2206
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
I just don't understand. Why the futile effort to keep this losing case alive?
Choose a different relic, or 'miracle' or 'open your heart to Jesus and let him speak to you' or whatever else, build a faith on that, and get on with it.
At one time, Jabba said he was trying to convert an invisible jury of lurkers. At another time, he said he was trying to convince himself.

I guess both require appeals to pseudoscience and logical fallacies.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 08:40 AM   #2207
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
At one time, Jabba said he was trying to convert an invisible jury of lurkers. At another time, he said he was trying to convince himself.

I guess both require appeals to pseudoscience and logical fallacies.
And yet it would be so easy to convert me. Just have god come down and regrow an amputee's limb. That would go a lot longer way than some vague cloth.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 05:54 PM   #2208
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
And yet it would be so easy to convert me. Just have god come down and regrow an amputee's limb. That would go a lot longer way than some vague cloth.
Jabba, sir. Do you think The Sparrow has a point?
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Old 24th December 2015, 06:26 AM   #2209
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Originally Posted by The Sparrow View Post
And yet it would be so easy to convert me. Just have god come down and regrow an amputee's limb. That would go a lot longer way than some vague cloth.
I volunteer to be the test subject!

God would convert me at the same time. A two-for-one,and all it takes is one teensy little miracle. Pretty small potatoes, really, compared to the stunts he used to pull - stopping the sun & moon in the sky, pillars of fire, toppling city walls.
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Old 24th December 2015, 10:31 AM   #2210
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Jabba, sir. Do you think The Sparrow has a point?
"I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing".
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Old 24th December 2015, 10:35 AM   #2211
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
"I refuse to prove that I exist, for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing".
Was that you that just disappeared in a puff of logic?
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Old 25th December 2015, 04:53 AM   #2212
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
Was that you that just disappeared in a puff of logic?

Watch out for zebra crossings.
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As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
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Old 25th December 2015, 10:43 AM   #2213
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Excuses

- I'm busy. I'll be back.
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Old 25th December 2015, 10:48 AM   #2214
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm busy. I'll be back.
When has that ever not been the case?

Unless you have something new, you needn't bother.

Just spend the rest of your time doing something more profitable. Perhaps with your family.
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Old 25th December 2015, 11:20 AM   #2215
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
I'll be back.

Why?

You keep coming back, but you never bring anything capable of establishing the authenticity of the shroud. What is the point?
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Old 26th December 2015, 07:52 AM   #2216
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm busy. I'll be back.
- Another year ticks over with zero progress made. Another year of empty promises.
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Old 26th December 2015, 08:57 AM   #2217
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm busy. I'll be back.
Merry Christmas, Jabba.

When you come back, can you bring some evidence that the shroud being held in Turin cathedral is 2,000 years old, please?
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Old 26th December 2015, 11:44 AM   #2218
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Merry Christmas, Jabba.

When you come back, can you bring some evidence that the shroud being held in Turin cathedral is 2,000 years old, please?
yes - Merry Christmas, Jabba.

Your evidence would be a nice present to all here!
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Old 26th December 2015, 12:09 PM   #2219
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I come back to this waste of a life called The Shroud Threads to see how it will all end.

I am sure there will never be any worthwhile evidence, nor any logical arguments supporting Jabba's position that the CIQ is authentic, even if these threads continue another 4 years.

Happy Boxing Day to you all!
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Old 26th December 2015, 12:26 PM   #2220
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'm busy. I'll be back.
Do you agree that you have to provide evidence that the CIQ is 2000 years old for it to be even possibly the burial shroud of the person you think of as Jesus?
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:00 AM   #2221
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Segway

- Anyway,

- I probably shouldn't use the word "probably" anymore when referring to my opinion about the shroud. Dan Porter's opinion was a big part of mine,
and his recent announcement took me by surprise.
- At this point, I don't think that I can honestly apply "probably" -- but, I do still give the shroud a 50/50 chance of being authentic...

- Obviously, I still want it to be authentic. Whatever, I still want to know the truth about it. And also, I still think that we humans need to develop an effective method of public debate -- that I have at least the beginnings of such a method -- and, that the shroud controversy makes for a perfect subject for analyzing the ins and outs of debate.
- And, as you already know, I believe that my method hasn't worked so far because you guys won't let me apply it fully. But then, I also think that I may be learning how to skirt your obstacles... We'll see.
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:04 AM   #2222
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...snip...

Edited by jsfisher:  Edited to comply with the Membership Agreement, specifically Rules 0 and 12.
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:06 AM   #2223
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
-- but, I do still give the shroud a 50/50 chance of being authentic...

Why? There is plenty of evidence that it is a medieval artefact; what evidence do you have that it is authentic?
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:11 AM   #2224
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
And also, I still think that we humans need to develop an effective method of public debate -- that I have at least the beginnings of such a method

Why? What evidence do you have that your method is effective, or ever could be?
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:17 AM   #2225
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway,

- I probably shouldn't use the word "probably" anymore when referring to my opinion about the shroud. Dan Porter's opinion was a big part of mine,
and his recent announcement took me by surprise.
- At this point, I don't think that I can honestly apply "probably" -- but, I do still give the shroud a 50/50 chance of being authentic...

- Obviously, I still want it to be authentic. Whatever, I still want to know the truth about it. And also, I still think that we humans need to develop an effective method of public debate -- that I have at least the beginnings of such a method -- and, that the shroud controversy makes for a perfect subject for analyzing the ins and outs of debate.
- And, as you already know, I believe that my method hasn't worked so far because you guys won't let me apply it fully. But then, I also think that I may be learning how to skirt your obstacles... We'll see.
My Dear Mr. Savage:

I hope you and yours had a delightful Advent Season, and are enjoying Christmas. I am seriously snowed in here on the Manzano Range in High Desert New Mexico, but have plenty of supplies and a week off, so all is well.

What evidence have you to offer that the "truth" about the CIQ is that it is ~2000 years old?

Keep in mind that that is only the first hurdle, but it is a big one. If the CIQ is not, in fact, ~2000 years old, none of the other objections matter--it cannot be a piece of cloth that was used to wrap anyone in the 1st Century C.E. if it does not, itself date from the 1st Century C.E.

Also keep in mind that even if the CIQ could be demonstrated to be ~2000 years old (which is not the same as casting aspersions on the 14C dating) you need to provide positive evidence of an age of ~2000 years); you would still have to overcome the historical record, the anatomical absurdities, the postural impossibilities, the "anti-gravity "hair" and "blood", the scriptural contradictions, and the fact that the byzantine-styled representational image is rendered (without distortion) on the sized and gessoed surface of a piece (not "strips") of linen.

In the spirit of your holy days, I beseech you to abandon your hope of "...some patching..." and provide positive evidence of a 1st Century C.E. date.

I hope your season brings you your own Epihany.

Through it all, I remain,

Patiently yours, &ct.
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:33 AM   #2226
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Discussion Format

Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
We know what you don't agree with...
- But, I don't know what you don't agree with.
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:50 AM   #2227
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, I don't know what you don't agree with.
How abour, your claim that there is any evidence that the shroud is the burial cloth of Jesus (much less that the preponderance of evidence is si, or that it is even 50/50).

So perhaps you could start by providing that evidence? Again, not stuff that could maybe lighten the pan of the non-burial cloth side, but actual evidence that it is Jesus's burial cloth, meaning it is at least 2000 years old.
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:51 AM   #2228
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post

- At this point, I don't think that I can honestly apply "probably" -- but, I do still give the shroud a 50/50 chance of being authentic...
Jabba:

Is this a

"The shroud is either authentic, or it is not. So there is default chance of 0.50 that it is authentic."

argument?
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Old 28th December 2015, 09:54 AM   #2229
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- And, as you already know, I believe that my method hasn't worked so far because you guys won't let me apply it fully.
What if your method doesn't seem to be working because you have not provided any evidence that the cloth is the burial shroud of Jesus?
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Old 28th December 2015, 10:00 AM   #2230
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, I don't know what you don't agree with.
My Dear Mr. Savage:

Do consider simply marshaling, and presenting, what evidence you have that the CIQ is, in fact, ~2000 years old (and do remember that "Mme F-L was incompetent" is not evidence of a 1st Century C.E. date).

I remain,

Faithfully yours &ct.
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Old 28th December 2015, 10:07 AM   #2231
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, I don't know what you don't agree with.


Another transparent attempt to shift the burden of proof. Present your evidence the cloth is 2kyo, please.



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Old 28th December 2015, 10:21 AM   #2232
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, I don't know what you don't agree with.

Have you tried reading people's responses in this thread, many of which explain what they don't agree with?

In case you can't manage that, how about:

Your claim that there is evidence that the shroud is authentic.

Your claim that evidence that casts doubt on the carbon dating, should you actually produce any, would be evidence of authenticity.

Your claim that the "preponderance of evidence" shows that the shroud is authentic.

Your claim that, in the face of clear evidence that it is impossible that the shroud is authentic, the idea of the "preponderance of evidence" is even relevant.
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Old 28th December 2015, 10:30 AM   #2233
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway,

- I probably shouldn't use the word "probably" anymore when referring to my opinion about the shroud. Dan Porter's opinion was a big part of mine,
and his recent announcement took me by surprise.
- At this point, I don't think that I can honestly apply "probably" -- but, I do still give the shroud a 50/50 chance of being authentic...

- Obviously, I still want it to be authentic. Whatever, I still want to know the truth about it. And also, I still think that we humans need to develop an effective method of public debate -- that I have at least the beginnings of such a method -- and, that the shroud controversy makes for a perfect subject for analyzing the ins and outs of debate.
- And, as you already know, I believe that my method hasn't worked so far because you guys won't let me apply it fully. But then, I also think that I may be learning how to skirt your obstacles... We'll see.
Prevaricator. What you are skirting are facts.
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Old 28th December 2015, 10:59 AM   #2234
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway,

- I probably shouldn't use the word "probably" anymore when referring to my opinion about the shroud. Dan Porter's opinion was a big part of mine,
and his recent announcement took me by surprise.
- At this point, I don't think that I can honestly apply "probably" -- but, I do still give the shroud a 50/50 chance of being authentic...

- Obviously, I still want it to be authentic. Whatever, I still want to know the truth about it. And also, I still think that we humans need to develop an effective method of public debate -- that I have at least the beginnings of such a method -- and, that the shroud controversy makes for a perfect subject for analyzing the ins and outs of debate.
- And, as you already know, I believe that my method hasn't worked so far because you guys won't let me apply it fully. But then, I also think that I may be learning how to skirt your obstacles... We'll see.
We already have an effective method, it's called the Scientific Method. Everyone here is using it but you.
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Old 28th December 2015, 11:01 AM   #2235
Craig4
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- But, I don't know what you don't agree with.
It doesn't matter. Just present your evidence independent of his or anyone else's arguments and let them stand on their own.
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Old 28th December 2015, 11:15 AM   #2236
Filippo Lippi
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When Jabba got his way wrt to debate he ran before the turn of the page
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Old 28th December 2015, 11:36 AM   #2237
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Originally Posted by Filippo Lippi View Post
Okay, that was weird.
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Old 28th December 2015, 12:04 PM   #2238
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Okay, that was weird.
Nope. That was a demonstration of how utterly useless Jabba's version of "effective debateTM" really is. It was so messed up that Jabba himself abandoned his own method.
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Old 28th December 2015, 01:53 PM   #2239
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Anyway,

- I probably shouldn't use the word "probably" anymore when referring to my opinion about the shroud. Dan Porter's opinion was a big part of mine,
and his recent announcement took me by surprise.
- At this point, I don't think that I can honestly apply "probably" -- but, I do still give the shroud a 50/50 chance of being authentic...

- Obviously, I still want it to be authentic. Whatever, I still want to know the truth about it. And also, I still think that we humans need to develop an effective method of public debate -- that I have at least the beginnings of such a method -- and, that the shroud controversy makes for a perfect subject for analyzing the ins and outs of debate.
- And, as you already know, I believe that my method hasn't worked so far because you guys won't let me apply it fully. But then, I also think that I may be learning how to skirt your obstacles... We'll see.
Oh dear.

You still seem to be operating under the delusion that debate is the correct method to use, and that your variant of debating is the best way to go about it.

Once again: debate is a method that uses rhetoric to sway an opinion, not a method for weighing evidence to arrive at a conclusion.

Moreover, the use of the word "controversy" is somewhat amusing in the context of this thread. A cynic might conclude that the purpose of your bluff and bluster is to create the appearance of controversy when none exists, so that you can point at it and proclaim the issue unresolved. Such a tactic is well within the behavioral parameters you've already demonstrated in this thread.
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Old 28th December 2015, 02:05 PM   #2240
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Jabba, please present you evidence that makes you think there is a 50/50 chance the CUQ covered the body of the person you think of as Jesus. What is it that makes you think this?
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