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Tags Canada elections , Canada politics , Elizabeth May , justin trudeau , Thomas Mulcair

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Old 1st September 2018, 08:16 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW how are Trump's latest remarks on Canada going over there?


I think the general reaction is "Well, duh, of course that's what he thinks."
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Old 2nd September 2018, 05:16 PM   #442
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
BTW how are Trump's latest remarks on Canada going over there?

The planet's axis tilted 1/4th of a degree due to all of the simultaneous eyerolling that happened in Canada on that day.
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Old 7th September 2018, 10:27 PM   #443
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Oh my God, you guys!


Maxime Bernier quits Conservatives to start new party


This is the guy who was neck-and-neck with Andrew Scheer right up until the last vote in the recent leadership race. This could either be huge, or a hilarious mis-step.


Following up on this, I just saw this comment on Facebook:

Quote:
Stéphane ***** https://www.maximebernier.com/home Calling all Patriots !! September hits Canada !! In the wake of the defeat of the fascist Left democrats and the Supreme Court Confirmation Hearing underway in the US, a new option has just presented itself to Canadians to vote for! A patriotic star kept from Canadians for far too long is breaking out on the political scene. Maxime Bernier, a classic conservative with patriotic values wants to "Make Canada Great Again" and can do it with his own party. All but one vlogger agree and call out for the Canadian Revolution to begin. Will the Fascist Main Stream Media help him. No way. They have already begun to attack him. A sure sign of a winner by today's standards. The same thing was done to Trump., and he has made America great again. Patriots here in Canada that love our country and feel that it and they have been treated unfairly need to rally around this man and they need to do it now. If Canadians want any chance of getting rid of the fascist regime that has hijacked our country and plagued our lives for decades, now is the time to ride the wave.The World is united against the fascist. WWG1WGA


So he's got a few fan(atic)s, at least.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:28 PM   #444
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Following up on this, I just saw this comment on Facebook:



Quote:
Stéphane ***** https://www.maximebernier.com/home Calling all Patriots !! September hits Canada !! In the wake of the defeat of the fascist Left democrats and the Supreme Court Confirmation Hearing underway in the US, a new option has just presented itself to Canadians to vote for! A patriotic star kept from Canadians for far too long is breaking out on the political scene. Maxime Bernier, a classic conservative with patriotic values wants to "Make Canada Great Again" and can do it with his own party. All but one vlogger agree and call out for the Canadian Revolution to begin. Will the Fascist Main Stream Media help him. No way. They have already begun to attack him. A sure sign of a winner by today's standards. The same thing was done to Trump., and he has made America great again. Patriots here in Canada that love our country and feel that it and they have been treated unfairly need to rally around this man and they need to do it now. If Canadians want any chance of getting rid of the fascist regime that has hijacked our country and plagued our lives for decades, now is the time to ride the wave.The World is united against the fascist. WWG1WGA
So he's got a few fan(atic)s, at least.
Oh joy! Qanon nutters are coming to Canada.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:36 PM   #445
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
Oh joy! Qanon nutters are coming to Canada.


Is that what that meant? I just figured it was some ordinary raving.
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Old 8th September 2018, 12:44 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Is that what that meant? I just figured it was some ordinary raving.
"Where we go one, we go all," abbreviated WWG1WGA, is their main catchphrase.
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Old 8th September 2018, 07:10 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
"Where we go one, we go all," abbreviated WWG1WGA, is their main catchphrase.


Yeah, I figured that out after you posted, but originally it just looked like "WYSIWYG" to me.....
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Old 8th September 2018, 08:06 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Yeah, I figured that out after you posted, but originally it just looked like "WYSIWYG" to me.....
The interesting part is watching how The Rebel is going to handle this.
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Old 12th September 2018, 09:36 AM   #449
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In Ford country, plans by the provincial conservative government to reduce the size of Toronto city council were struck down by a judge as unconstitutional. In response, Ford plans to reintroduce the changes using the 'notwithstanding' clause.

From: https://globalnews.ca/news/4438280/d...ronto-council/
An Ontario judge has struck down legislation from the provincial government that cut the size of Toronto’s city council nearly in half in the middle of a municipal election. In response, Premier Doug Ford is invoking the rarely used notwithstanding cause to get his law on the books.

I may be biased (I have no problem with the reduction in the size of the city council, and think it may result in a cost savings) but I do have to wonder about the judges reasoning.

He suggests that it violates freedom of expression for candidates because it came into effect during an election campaign, but the bill was introduced in the middle of the summer, and came into effect in the middle of August, long before the deadline for candidates to be nominated, so any candidates had more than enough time to adjust.

He also claimed that it violates freedom of expression for voters who won't have adequate representation, but the number of people on Toronto council will be around the same as the number of MPs representing the city. Is the quality of representation really affected by the number of people in a city ward?
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Old 12th September 2018, 10:56 AM   #450
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
He also claimed that it violates freedom of expression for voters who won't have adequate representation, but the number of people on Toronto council will be around the same as the number of MPs representing the city. Is the quality of representation really affected by the number of people in a city ward?


On this issue, I think it's a function of gerrymandering. I saw somewhere that the average district will go from around 60,000 voters to around 110-115,000.

If you were in a liberal-leaning district that was split in two, and each half added to a different conservative-leaning district, you could end up with only 2 conservative members, neither of whom would represent your opinions to the city council, effectively eliminating you from the legislative process.

Had Ford actually done the work needed to reduce the city council in an open and transparent fashion, with due regard to non-partisan impartiality, this wouldn't be an issue. But he didn't do that. It's clear from everything he's said that this is all about his own petty vendetta against the Councillors who refused to go along with his and his brother's ********.
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Old 12th September 2018, 12:10 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Re: Ford legislating a reduction in councilors in Toronto...

On this issue, I think it's a function of gerrymandering.
Not sure if this really counts as gerrymandering.

Gerrymandering (at least the way I interpret it) means a political party draws political boundaries to benefit itself in future elections. But since municipal ward boundaries don't really affect provincial riding boundaries then I don't think the term 'gerrymandering' applies.

Also, who is deciding the ward boundaries? If its Ford himself (or the conservatives) maybe there is an issue, but I believe the boundaries will be the same as those used in federal and provincial elections (which are created by an organization generally seen as independent.)
Quote:
I saw somewhere that the average district will go from around 60,000 voters to around 110-115,000.
Which makes sense... if you cut the number of wards roughly in half, each will have twice as many people.
Quote:
If you were in a liberal-leaning district that was split in two, and each half added to a different conservative-leaning district, you could end up with only 2 conservative members, neither of whom would represent your opinions to the city council, effectively eliminating you from the legislative process.
And if the majority of the population of 2 conservative-leaning wards ended up being combined into a single larger ward, you would end up with less conservative representation on council.

Quote:
Had Ford actually done the work needed to reduce the city council in an open and transparent fashion, with due regard to non-partisan impartiality, this wouldn't be an issue.
Perhaps Ford could have been more 'open and transparent', although I suspect things probably would have come down the same way.... with the province demanding a reduction in councilors, the city saying "No", and the province finally saying "Ok, we'll force it to happen".

We sort of went through the same thing back when Harris was premier and he wanted to cut medical costs by reducing unused hospital beds in Ottawa. He gave the task to the city, they spent a bunch of time coming up with a plan that wouldn't really save much money, and finally the province stepped in and actually made the necessary decision.
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Old 12th September 2018, 02:59 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Perhaps Ford could have been more 'open and transparent', although I suspect things probably would have come down the same way.... with the province demanding a reduction in councilors, the city saying "No", and the province finally saying "Ok, we'll force it to happen".

We sort of went through the same thing back when Harris was premier and he wanted to cut medical costs by reducing unused hospital beds in Ottawa. He gave the task to the city, they spent a bunch of time coming up with a plan that wouldn't really save much money, and finally the province stepped in and actually made the necessary decision.

Yes, and part of the courts' decision came down to, the Province does have that power, and could very easily have acted on it before the next election, giving sufficient time for consultation, and for the existing city council to plan accordingly, but Ford chose not to do that, and rammed through legislation even though the election cycle had already started, and candidates had already started registering, fundraising and spending money in accordance with their plans based on the existing election plan. Ford's actions screwed that all up.

There's no compelling reason for the government to act right now to make this change, when it was perfectly able to make the change later. It was done solely to punish the people Doug Ford hates. Take a look at some of the things he's said about it.


Quote:
NDP Leader Andrea Horwath demanded to know why the Tories never campaigned on cutting Toronto Council and accused Ford of using the notwithstanding clause for a personal vendetta against his former council colleagues.

Ford countered that Horwath was clearly trying to protect her political cronies and fellow NDPers on Toronto Council, mentioning Mike Layton and Joe Cressy
https://torontosun.com/news/provinci...n-legal-hammer


There's a perfectly reasonable, and legal, option that lets him do what he wants to do - he just has to wait. But he's such a short-sighted, petty, vindictive little ****** that he's gone with the nuclear option, right off the bat, because he doesn't want to have to wait to **** over the people he hates.

And he's also made it clear that he'll do it again if given the opportunity.

If this stands, if a politician gets away with invoking the notwithstanding clause over such a trivial issue, there's nothing to stop anyone in power from using it for anything.

The Alberta NDP government passes a law that you have to be gay to work on an oil rig? Screw you, roughnecks, Notwithstanding! Get sucking those cocks!

As I expected, Doug Ford is just too goddamned stupid to see how badly he's ****** up.
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Old 16th September 2018, 07:51 AM   #453
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Snicker.

Quote:
A new poll shows that a surprisingly high number of Canadians would support the new People’s Party launched by Maxime Bernier solely for the pleasure of watching Conservative leader Andrew Scheer’s reaction to the poll numbers.

“Don’t get me wrong,” Sherry Wilney of Saskatoon told reporters. “Bernier’s obviously capitalizing on the most venal impulses of the electorate and any vote legitimizing him would be deeply concerning.”

“But can you just imagine the face Scheer would make while doing a press conference and having to explain how vote splitting on the right led to another Trudeau majority government. It’d be hilarious.”
Not quite the Onion but a good effort.
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Old 21st September 2018, 10:11 AM   #454
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
Quote:
Perhaps Ford could have been more 'open and transparent', although I suspect things probably would have come down the same way.... with the province demanding a reduction in councilors, the city saying "No", and the province finally saying "Ok, we'll force it to happen".
Yes, and part of the courts' decision came down to, the Province does have that power, and could very easily have acted on it before the next election, giving sufficient time for consultation, and for the existing city council to plan accordingly...
What exactly do you think such planning and consultations would actually involve? We know what the city politicians (and those ideologically opposed to Ford) would probably say... "keep city council big". We know what the conservatives would say: Reduce the size. So basically you'd have 2-3 years of both sides stating their positions over and over, before the province does what it was going to do in the first place.
Quote:
but Ford chose not to do that, and rammed through legislation even though the election cycle had already started, and candidates had already started registering, fundraising and spending money in accordance with their plans based on the existing election plan.
Did some research.. from what I saw, the announcement to reduce the size of Toronto's council happened on July 27 (and there were rumors reported in newspapers even before that). That means politicians had almost 3 months from the time of the official announcement to the election itself (and almost 2 months from the announcement to the registration deadline) to adjust.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontari...ncil-1.4030363

Quote:
There's no compelling reason for the government to act right now to make this change, when it was perfectly able to make the change later.
Well, I'm not from Toronto (actually from Ottawa), but if I were, I'd have no problem with the Ford government acting immediately rather than waiting. While I doubt they will save as much money as Ford is promising, I think there will be SOME savings, and its better to have those savings come earlier than later.

Of course it turns out the whole legal challenge and the attempt to invoke 'notwithstanding' ended up being irrelevant.

From: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toron...ncil-1.4829250
...a panel of three Court of Appeal justices stayed a lower court's Sept. 10 ruling that struck down a provincial bill that would reduce the council from 47 to 25 members... Judge Edward Belobaba ruled against the province, saying the legislation was unconstitutional because it violated freedom of expression rights for candidates and voters. The Court of Appeal, however, disagreed with his assessment, calling it a "dubious ruling that invalidates legislation duly passed by the legislature."

And if it matters, it turns out that the decision may actually be supported by Toronto voters:

From: https://www.cp24.com/news/poll-close...shed-1.4055102
48 per cent of Toronto voters surveyed believe that city council should be reduced from 45 councillors to 25. About 35 per cent of Torontonians surveyed disagree
(Admittedly, not all polls are in agreement)
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Old 30th September 2018, 10:45 PM   #455
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NAFTA Needs A Nifty New Name

https //www cbc ca/news/politics/nafta-finale-sunday-deadline-trump-1.4844623

I can't easily pronounce the new deal so I don't like it.

PS. Could someone fix the link for me please?
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Old 1st October 2018, 06:36 AM   #456
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Here's the updated link:

Canada, U.S. have reached a NAFTA deal — now called the USMCA [cbc.ca]
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Old 1st October 2018, 11:54 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by dadbodhisattva View Post
NAFTA Needs A Nifty New Name

https //www cbc ca/news/politics/nafta-finale-sunday-deadline-trump-1.4844623

I can't easily pronounce the new deal so I don't like it.

PS. Could someone fix the link for me please?

I'm going to call it:

"The Agreement Previously Known As NAFTA"
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Old 1st October 2018, 12:19 PM   #458
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It will be interesting to hear how the "Trudeau is a disaster" crowd will try to spin this as a failure. From what I've seen so far, it looks like we took Trump for a ride.
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Old 1st October 2018, 01:09 PM   #459
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Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
It will be interesting to hear how the "Trudeau is a disaster" crowd will try to spin this as a failure. From what I've seen so far, it looks like we took Trump for a ride.
Did we?

From he looks of things, we managed to maintain some of the dispute mechanisms we wanted (but that wasn't anything new we got). But we did give them greater access to our dairy market and our cultural industries. And some things (like steel/aluminium tariffs) haven't yet been resolved. I can't think of anything new that was included in the new agreement that specifically helps us (something that that wasn't there before.)

I'm not necessarily saying it was a bad deal. (When you're dealing with a president as incompetent as Trump, who heads the country with the largest economy, your options might be limited.) I just don't know how we 'took Trump for a ride".

For the record, I generally vote conservative. I can think of a lot of reasons why I don't like Trudeau as leader. But I can't fault him for his handling of Trump or the trade deal.
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Old 1st October 2018, 04:41 PM   #460
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Did we?

I'm not necessarily saying it was a bad deal. (When you're dealing with a president as incompetent as Trump, who heads the country with the largest economy, your options might be limited.) I just don't know how we 'took Trump for a ride".

This is the biggest factor:

Quote:
However, what Ottawa has negotiated is effectively an exemption, because it would still be able to export cars and parts tariff-free up to a certain amount well above what Canada currently sends south of the border.

....

The cap is a ceiling Canada can likely live with, since the majority of exports to the U.S. are parts, not completed vehicles.

https://business.financialpost.com/t...-tariff-threat

Quote:
The deal reached late Sunday ensures Canada won’t be affected by tariffs unless exports top 2.6 million units annually, well above the current level of 1.8 million.

We could potentially increase our tariff-free auto exports by almost 50%. How much is that worth?

Quote:

As to the dairy thing,

Quote:
The new deal would give American farmers greater access to Canada's dairy industry, worth about 3.6 per cent of Canada's current dairy market, according to the Dairy Farmers of Canada. The U.S. had negotiated access worth about 3.25 per cent of Canada's market in the Trans-Pacific Partnership, but then withdrew, leaving that share of Canada's market now available to dairy products from the countries that remain in the agreement, like New Zealand and Australia.

We basically gave them what we'd already agreed to.

And how much was that?

Quote:

We gave them 3.6% of a 20 billion dollar industry, in exchange for maybe as much as 25 billion in new auto exports. Most of the other stuff is a wash, but this alone puts Canada squarely in the win column.
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Old 1st October 2018, 08:56 PM   #461
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So maybe we can call it NAFTPP. Still not much to work with.

It seems like this is all just a bunch of political showmanship. Trump gets to brag to his base how he got to bend Canada over, and Trudeau gets to strut around like he beat Trump at his own game.

I feel like Trump's game from the get go was to play like he was the big stack and try to muscle everyone out of the hand just to play to his audience, not the actual deal. He is all about making everyone think he gets good deals by playing this empty game of brinkmanship. He plays all tough when all he really wants is his name on something. From what I've seen from Trump, the Art of the Deal is act like you're not going to budge, then give the other guy exactly what he wants. Then I suppose you spin it like you dragged him over the coals.

I'm curious to see if Scheer can leverage something from this. My money is on the conservatives keeping quiet on this so Trudeau can't ride the success too much. They'll start squawking about the pipeline again or the GG or something. Anything but USMCTPPFTA. So it will be a win for the Liberals for now.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 04:25 AM   #462
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Just occurred to me; how long before the USMC starts complaining about being confused for the USMCA? Anyone up for hacking their website?
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Old 2nd October 2018, 05:18 AM   #463
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Just so you know, the Quebec elections were yesterday and a party that was just a few years ago considered a joke, and then a third party, just won a majority.

Proof that Canada has a system that allows new ideas to grow.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 07:43 AM   #464
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Another thing that's going away in the new agreement is the "Investor-state dispute settlement" mechanism, where a U.S. company could sue the Canadian government for loss of profits if Canada passed legislation negatively affecting that company's ability to do business in the country. For example, passing stricter environmental regulations.

Buried behind the cows and cars: key changes in NAFTA 2.0 [cbc.ca]
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:27 AM   #465
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Just so you know, the Quebec elections were yesterday and a party that was just a few years ago considered a joke, and then a third party, just won a majority.

Proof that Canada has a system that allows new ideas to grow.
To be honest, I didn't even know there was a quebec election until I was driving in Gatineau (Quebec) last week and saw some signs. And didn't even know when the election day was until I heard the results on the radio.

Guess it shows just how much political oxygen has been sucked out of the room by Trump and Ford.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 08:53 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
To be honest, I didn't even know there was a quebec election until I was driving in Gatineau (Quebec) last week and saw some signs. And didn't even know when the election day was until I heard the results on the radio.

Guess it shows just how much political oxygen has been sucked out of the room by Trump and Ford.
Well to be fair Canadian elections are pretty short.
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Old 2nd October 2018, 09:26 AM   #467
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well to be fair Canadian elections are pretty short.
In the US they never end. The whole point if getting elected to get re-elected. The actual governing part is just a minor distraction
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Old 5th October 2018, 02:37 PM   #468
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Well to be fair Canadian elections are pretty short.
Yet another reason to praise the wonders of Zeus.

At least we know how to do one thing right in this country.
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Old 30th October 2018, 09:42 AM   #469
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Looks like Trudeau is playing politics with byelections.

From: https://www.burnabynow.com/news/trud...ays-1.23478945
There are currently four empty seats in Parliament, but Trudeau only called a byelection for one... an Ontario riding without an MP since Conservative Gord Brown died in May....Traditionally prime ministers have called byelections for all empty seats at the same time and, Julian said, Trudeau is breaking with historical precedent to delay a vote in which federal NDP leader Jagmeet Singh hopes to win his first seat in Parliament.

I do think its rather strange that Trudeau will be so... petty? It seems like a calculated move to hurt the NDP, but the NDP weren't likely to beat the liberals in a future election. (Unless Trudeau is worried about either a resurgent NDP stealing just enough left-wing votes to affect the Liberals, or doesn't want the bad publicity of an election loss.)
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Old 30th October 2018, 03:51 PM   #470
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
(snip)
I do think its rather strange that Trudeau will be so... petty? It seems like a calculated move to hurt the NDP, but the NDP weren't likely to beat the liberals in a future election. (Unless Trudeau is worried about either a resurgent NDP stealing just enough left-wing votes to affect the Liberals, or doesn't want the bad publicity of an election loss.)
For sure; I was hoping he would bring a less partisan approach to politics. I don't think he's as bad as Harper was, but this is disappointing if he's not calling other by-elections just because he's concerned his party might not win a seat.
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Old 31st October 2018, 08:28 AM   #471
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Re: Trudeau failing to call byelection in former NDP seat...
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
For sure; I was hoping he would bring a less partisan approach to politics.
Why would you think that the Liberals would be 'less partisan'?

The Liberals were more than willing to "play politics" both before and after the last election. Look at their handling of the F18 replacement program for an example, putting politics ahead of good governance. And their 'gender balanced' cabinet seemed to be nothing more than a publicity stunt.
Quote:
I don't think he's as bad as Harper was, but this is disappointing if he's not calling other by-elections just because he's concerned his party might not win a seat.
Why exactly are you calling out Harper as 'bad'? While I don't think he was completely innocent, I also don't think he was particularly bad either. And I'd put him head and shoulders above Chretien. (Remember, the guy who wasted millions to call 2 snap elections just because he could benefit from a divided opposition. The guy who ignored )

Is it because he prorogued parliament? Well, that's been done (on average) roughly once a year by pretty much every prime minister. Is it because of the "contempt of parliament" charge? I think that has more to do with the circumstances at the time (minority government with an opposition looking to score political points); In other governments the 'contempt' charge would have been squashed by the majority party.
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Old 31st October 2018, 11:28 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
Re: Trudeau failing to call byelection in former NDP seat...

Why would you think that the Liberals would be 'less partisan'?
I was hoping that the junior Trudeau, being a younger man and having been involved in things other than politics in his earlier years (school teacher and some drama experience) would bring a broader perspective to Canadian politics other than just "we'll do whatever we have to in order to stay in power."

Quote:
The Liberals were more than willing to "play politics" both before and after the last election. Look at their handling of the F18 replacement program for an example, putting politics ahead of good governance. And their 'gender balanced' cabinet seemed to be nothing more than a publicity stunt.
Harper had a good decade to get something going for the F-18 replacement program. How well did he do on that file? Fortunately he was able to negotiate a new helicopter replacement program, after that bone-headed move by Chrétien to cancel the EH-101.

And I agree that the gender-balanced cabinet was more a publicity stunt than a dedicated exercise into putting together a cabinet of the best people possible for the jobs they are put in place to do. I rather suspect his cabinet is no longer 50% men and 50% women.

Hey, I tend to be a bit of a Justin cheerleader. It's sobering to realize he's done some stupid things, too. Like that vacation to the Aga Khan's island. Oops! There would be no problem doing that as a private citizen (the Aga Khan is a friend of the family) , but as Prime Minister you have to be a lot more circumspect about these things (specifically because the Aga Khan is a friend of the family.)

Quote:
Why exactly are you calling out Harper as 'bad'? While I don't think he was completely innocent, I also don't think he was particularly bad either. And I'd put him head and shoulders above Chretien. (Remember, the guy who wasted millions to call 2 snap elections just because he could benefit from a divided opposition. The guy who ignored )
That same Harper passed a fixed election dates law (imitating the USA), then proceeded to call an election before said fixed date because he believed it would benefit him.

Quote:
Is it because he prorogued parliament? Well, that's been done (on average) roughly once a year by pretty much every prime minister. Is it because of the "contempt of parliament" charge?
He prorogued Parliament with the express intent of getting out from under a non-confidence motion, and in the process sparked a minor constitutional crisis. At the time he called out the opposition for wanting to form a coalition in case they were able to carry the motion, using words to the effect it wasn't a democratic thing to to. He ignored the fact he threatened to do the exact same thing when he was in opposition! I call that "hypocrisy."

And, yes, he's the only Prime Minister in the history of the British Commonwealth to have been declared to be in contempt of Parliament. As far as I'm concerned it's justified. I believe he was contemptuous of Parliament, contemptuous of Canadian government in general, and contemptuous of the civil service as a whole.

But it was his contempt of science and scientists that earns my greatest scorn. This was a Prime Minister who openly questioned climate change and did nothing at all to improve Canada's response to it. All communications coming from government scientists had to be cleared by the PMO. Reporters couldn't simply call up a government scientist and ask his or her opinion on a particular topic; the interview had to be set up through the PMO. And if the PMO didn't like what the scientist had to say, they simply ignored the request.

Further, when government scientists went to conferences, they were accompanied by a government minder to ensure they toed the Harper line—a tactic that quite frankly reminds me of Soviet Russia. As one of his first acts as Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau removed these restrictions and once again let government scientists speak directly with the media.

Harper cut funding to science all over the place, such as the Experimental Lakes Area, which for fifty years has been studying the effect of climate change and lake acidification. Fortunately a group of people who were actually concerned about the science stepped in and managed to secure further funding.

He shut down the Fisheries Libraries, which had been maintaining archives of fishery data. Not only did he shut them down, he threw out all the data! Literally—the papers were hauled off to the landfill. A century and a half of useful data on fisheries, thrown into the trash. Why? Maybe because they allowed scientists to draw conclusions he wasn't comfortable with.

He rolled back the clock on the prison system, turning it from an institution that at least tried to help people on the inside from re-offending into a much more punitive system. This despite the fact that all research in this area shows that simply does not work. But, again, Harper didn't care about science; all he cared about was his conservative ideology. We saw that when he shut down the Prison Farm system, which not only gave a small supply of fresh farm goods into the prisons, but was a valuable resource in teaching inmates life lessons like responsibility.

Remember his minister of justice saying, "You're either with us or you're with the child pornographers"? Talk about the fallacy of the excluded middle! That to me is an example of how his entire government thought. There was no nuance; it was either Harper's way or no way.

Then there were his comments on marijuana, where he said (if I recall correctly) that it was ten times more dangerous than tobacco. What little evidence we have points in the opposite direction. But it's not like we really know, because he and his fellow like-minded conservatives in the States made it impossible to actually study it. (There's that science thing again!) And after saying that, what did he do? Cozied up Rob Ford, a drug addict and a total embarrassment as mayor of Toronto.

In Harper's favour, you can say he knew his convictions and stood by them. Unfortunately many of the things he believed were unsupported by science.
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Old 31st October 2018, 12:37 PM   #473
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Quote:
The Liberals were more than willing to "play politics" both before and after the last election. Look at their handling of the F18 replacement program for an example, putting politics ahead of good governance. And their 'gender balanced' cabinet seemed to be nothing more than a publicity stunt.
Harper had a good decade to get something going for the F-18 replacement program. How well did he do on that file?
During a good portion of his time as Prime Minister, he had to deal with a minority government, and an opposition who was eager to score political points against an "evil conservative government who wants to spend money on his army toys". That certainly contributed to the slowness of the CF18 replacement program.

Quote:
Fortunately he was able to negotiate a new helicopter replacement program, after that bone-headed move by Chrétien to cancel the EH-101.
I'd say Harper's handling of helicopters is a mixed bag.

The Liberals decided to replace the sea kings with the CH148 Cyclone, but Sikorsky kept having delays. The harper government seemed to be willing waive penalties for their lateness.

Quote:
And I agree that the gender-balanced cabinet was more a publicity stunt than a dedicated exercise into putting together a cabinet of the best people possible for the jobs they are put in place to do. I rather suspect his cabinet is no longer 50% men and 50% women.
According to Wikipeda they're still fairly balanced. (Although the big ones still seem to be dominated by men... Finance, defense, foreign affairs.)

Quote:
Quote:
Why exactly are you calling out Harper as 'bad'? While I don't think he was completely innocent, I also don't think he was particularly bad either. And I'd put him head and shoulders above Chretien. (Remember, the guy who wasted millions to call 2 snap elections just because he could benefit from a divided opposition. The guy who ignored )
That same Harper passed a fixed election dates law (imitating the USA), then proceeded to call an election before said fixed date because he believed it would benefit him.
The idea of a fixed election date is that it eliminates one of the advantages that a sitting government has (namely the ability to call an election when conditions are favorable.) However, the problem is that fixed election dates do not work well within the rules of our parliamentary democracy, especially when we have a minority government, since it can lose a confidence motion at any time to trigger an election.

Yes, Harper called an election outside of his 'fixed election date' law. But there was a minority parliament that was gridlocked at the time.
Quote:
Quote:
Is it because he prorogued parliament? Well, that's been done (on average) roughly once a year by pretty much every prime minister. Is it because of the "contempt of parliament" charge?
He prorogued Parliament with the express intent of getting out from under a non-confidence motion...
Parliaments are typically prorogued to assist the party that is in power. Supposedly Chretien Proroged parliament about the time Fraser was doing a report on the sponsorship scandal.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...article794712/

If the opposition party really wanted to continue their confidence motion, hey could have done so after the prorogation.

Quote:
At the time he called out the opposition for wanting to form a coalition in case they were able to carry the motion, using words to the effect it wasn't a democratic thing to to. He ignored the fact he threatened to do the exact same thing when he was in opposition! I call that "hypocrisy."
Yup, quite hypocritcal. Guilty as charged.

The question is, why does that make him any worse than any other prime minister who also engages in hypocritical behavior?
Quote:
And, yes, he's the only Prime Minister in the history of the British Commonwealth to have been declared to be in contempt of Parliament. As far as I'm concerned it's justified.
Ok, lets go back to the time of the contempt of parliament charge.

The conservatives wanted to buy the F35. They had various cost estimates made up that they presented to parliament. The opposition said "we want the 40 year cost estimates". Why did they want that? Because then they can play politics and say "Look at the cost increases!" (Despite the fact that increasing the time frame doesn't actually increase the costs.) It was a cheap political ploy, and it worked to the Liberals and NDPs advantage.

Quote:
I believe he was contemptuous of Parliament, contemptuous of Canadian government in general, and contemptuous of the civil service as a whole.
This is actually an issue with pretty much every government. Chretien ignored demands from the opposition over information regarding the HRDC scandal. Even Justin Trudeau has engaged in the same sort of behavior over his trip to India.

The only reason the Harper government ended up with a non-confidence vote and Chretien did not is because Chretien had a majority at the time.

Quote:
But it was his contempt of science and scientists that earns my greatest scorn.
Yes, admittedly the Harper government was weak when it came to science. But I thought the top of discussion was politics and the various mechanisms in the house of commons (rather than the policies that the various parties held.)

As someone who typically votes conservative, I do get annoyed with some of the anti-science attitudes present on the political right. I recognize that no political party will exactly match my own beliefs and positions, so there is a trade off... I have to accept the government may not be strong on science, but will hopefully be better at defense and fiscal policy.
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Old 1st November 2018, 09:01 PM   #474
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post


According to Wikipeda they're still fairly balanced. (Although the big ones still seem to be dominated by men... Finance, defense, foreign affairs.)

Chrystia Freeland is Minister of Foreign Affairs. Just a nit pick.
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Old 2nd November 2018, 09:44 AM   #475
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Originally Posted by dadbodhisattva View Post
Re: Gender balance in Trudeau's cabinet...
Quote:
According to Wikipeda they're still fairly balanced. (Although the big ones still seem to be dominated by men... Finance, defense, foreign affairs.)
Chrystia Freeland is Minister of Foreign Affairs. Just a nit pick.
OOps you're right... I was thinking of Dion who had previously been in Foreign Affairs, but he resigned last year.
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Old 7th November 2018, 11:32 AM   #476
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Statistics Canada: We want your money (information)

From: https://business.financialpost.com/o...-going-too-far
According to Global: “the national statistical agency plans to collect ‘individual-level financial transactions data’ and sensitive information, like social insurance numbers (SIN), from Canadian financial institutions... Global also reported that StatCan has been lifting up to 15 years of credit-rating information from international credit rating firms, possibly affecting millions of Canadians.

Both the NDP and conservatives are against it, while the Liberals are defending it. While I'm sure there are some people who believe the information is important, there are issues. The data is being collected without the person's knowledge, and there have been some significant security breaches at Statscan.

Remember the good old days when everyone was beating on Harper for saying that the long form census should be voluntary?
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Old 19th February 2019, 01:43 PM   #477
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So, there's currently a scandal that's getting a bit hot for the Liberals...

A Quebec-based company SNC-Lavalin (a company that seems to offer various services, such as Engineering and procurement services) had been accused of corruption over work they did in Libya.

Trudeau has been accused of asking the justice minister to delay prosecution against SNC-Lavalin. (If SNC-Lavalin is convicted, the company loses the right to work on Canadian government contract, which could be devastating to the company.)

(There are 2 reasons why Trudeau might have interfered... 1) Lavalin has donated a lot of money to the Liberal party in the past, and 2) the Liberals want to keep their Quebec voting base.)

Since then, Justice minister Wilson-Raybould has been taken out of the Justice portfolio, and Trudeau's principal secratary Gerald Butts has resigned.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tru...tion-1.5009578
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ger...-pmo-1.5023675

The resignation of Butts was a big thing... he's a long-time Trudeau friend and often seen as the "power behind the throne".
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Old 19th February 2019, 02:17 PM   #478
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
So, there's currently a scandal that's getting a bit hot for the Liberals...

A Quebec-based company SNC-Lavalin (a company that seems to offer various services, such as Engineering and procurement services) had been accused of corruption over work they did in Libya.

Trudeau has been accused of asking the justice minister to delay prosecution against SNC-Lavalin. (If SNC-Lavalin is convicted, the company loses the right to work on Canadian government contract, which could be devastating to the company.)

(There are 2 reasons why Trudeau might have interfered... 1) Lavalin has donated a lot of money to the Liberal party in the past, and 2) the Liberals want to keep their Quebec voting base.)

Since then, Justice minister Wilson-Raybould has been taken out of the Justice portfolio, and Trudeau's principal secratary Gerald Butts has resigned.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/tru...tion-1.5009578
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ger...-pmo-1.5023675

The resignation of Butts was a big thing... he's a long-time Trudeau friend and often seen as the "power behind the throne".
I have generally been a Trudeau supporter since the last election. This SNC-Lavalin business is causing me to re-think. There is definitely stuff here that will hurt the government, and it will hurt whether they come clean or try to keep it hidden.
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Old 19th February 2019, 02:36 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by Steve View Post
I have generally been a Trudeau supporter since the last election. This SNC-Lavalin business is causing me to re-think. There is definitely stuff here that will hurt the government, and it will hurt whether they come clean or try to keep it hidden.
Well, all parties will have scandals.

I think the problem with this scandal (at least for the voters) is that its a bit harder to connect the dots. People could understand the sponsorship scandal (Liberals got kickbacks). This one is a bit more... ethereal.

Although I do find it a bit ironic... one of the biggest scandals that Harper had was when Nigel Wright had to resign because he gave money TO the government; now the Liberals may be in trouble because of donations to their party. (Admittedly, that's oversimplifying things a little bit..)
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Old 20th February 2019, 08:41 AM   #480
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It's not that much different from the Pacific Railway Scandal .

And it will likely have the same long-term effect - the affected political party looses the next election, and then comes back at a later date.
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