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Old 20th November 2015, 11:58 PM   #1
Checkmite
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David Paulides' "Missing 411" books

There is a series of books called "Missing 411", written by David Paulides. I haven't read any of them but I've recently read of them and was curious if any forumites might have read them and have anything critical to say, before I go to the effort of finding them for myself.

David Paulides used to be a bigfoot "researcher". A very well-known one too; a search for "Paulides" in this forum turns up roughly a million threads about "bigfoot". However, just to get that out of the way, from what I've been able to discern, these books were written after he ended his "bigfoot phase", and have nothing to do with bigfootery as best I can tell.

This is what I've been able to determine so far. The Missing 411 books were initially about disappearances that have occurred at US National Parks; apparently over time they have begun covering disappearances in other wilderness areas, and then other less-wildernessy areas in the US and abroad. The book series doesn't involve itself in every single instance where a person has gone missing; but rather select cases where the person is never found, or where the person (or remains) are found, but where there are peculiar circumstances that don't seem to lend themselves to easy explanation. Some evident examples would be children found unlikely distances from the place where they went missing, in a relatively short amount of time from their disappearance; bodies being found in places that had previously been thoroughly searched; remains found a substantial amount of time after the person's disappearance but showing a much more recent time of death and little evidence of a difficult time barely surviving in the wilderness for an extended period. Paulides claims to have identified certain specific and important similarities between the various cases, although not having read the books I'm not sure what these are. From the reviews I've read, Paulides has at no time insinuated that a certain thing is responsible, whether that's UFOs, or ghosts, or yetties, or government Satanists, or any other such things that like to be postulated by aficionados of "mysterious disappearances"; however, he does heavily insinuate that there is something to be insinuated about all of these cases, and that he believes it is something that is outside the "comfort zone" of mundane explanation.

From what little I've been able to gather, the disappearances covered in his books are actual, documented disappearances (no fictional men from the mysterious land of Taured or vanishing David Langs); although not having read the books and double-checked each case I can't vouch for how well he relates the details of each one, including the details that he depicts as "unusual".

So, there's my question. Anybody here read these books, or otherwise know of the cases covered by them? Are there instances where he gets things vastly wrong, or seems to invent conveniently mysterious details? Other reasons to dismiss these books (besides his previous forays into the bigfoot BS)?
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Old 21st November 2015, 12:40 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
.......David Paulides used to be a bigfoot "researcher"........... However, just to get that out of the way, from what I've been able to discern, these books were written after he ended his "bigfoot phase", and have nothing to do with bigfootery as best I can tell........
That's not what the 'footers say. Toddle on over to the Bigfoot Forum, and you will find that they claim this book is all about bigfoot.
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Old 21st November 2015, 03:23 AM   #3
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I remember some references to the books while researching odd events, the general take was that they were grossly overblown. If people disappear, there'll be odd coincidence and events associated with some of them; if the sample is large enough then this will appear to be significant.
Disappearances in wilderness territory, like the US National Parks, are problematic; large areas to search, lots of potential for predation and numerous bodies of water all make it possible for bodies to disappear.

I remember Paulides being particularly criticised by ignoring coyotes as a cause of human disappearances, both from attacks on humans and disposing of the corpses of those who'd died by other means. Further he seemed to unquestioningly take the statements of witnesses at face value, at least when it suited his agenda. Odd for an ex-police officer.
He's also of a decidedly conspiratorial mindset; suggesting the US Parks Service covers-up disappearances, rather than simply being under resourced, sloppy and eager to avoid negative publicity.
Finally he completely ignored phenomena like paradoxical undressing, and in fact denies it exists.
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Old 21st November 2015, 07:57 AM   #4
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I'm pretty sure we had a discussion about this before on this forum.

Anyway, I worked for the NPS for 25 years, and my father did before me, and my brother does now. I seem to recall that one example that was presented to me was untrue, and that others were cases that were not covered up.

When someone disappears in a national park, there is a major search effort that usually involves multiple agencies. It is funded out of a major case fund, not that park's budget, so there's no reason to cut resources. Searches go on for days, sometimes longer, utilizing helicopters, foot searches, horseback searches, interviews, trackers, and other resources. It is true that some people are not found right away, and there are a few that have never been found, or whose bodies have been located but are in places too inaccessible to safely be retrievable. All of these cases are explainable; there's nothing mysterious about them.

If you want to read some good books about death/disappearances in national parks, try the "Death in..." series. The Grand Canyon and Yosemite ones are quite interesting.
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Old 21st November 2015, 03:06 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
That's not what the 'footers say. Toddle on over to the Bigfoot Forum, and you will find that they claim this book is all about bigfoot.
I'm sure; and I'd be willing to bet that UFO forums, if they discuss his books, will likely to lean toward aliens, and so forth. But my impression is that the books themselves never discuss any of these things.
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Old 21st November 2015, 05:22 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
If you want to read some good books about death/disappearances in national parks, try the "Death in..." series. The Grand Canyon and Yosemite ones are quite interesting.

Do you have an author or publisher reference?
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Old 21st November 2015, 05:58 PM   #7
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One of my favorite books is "Off the Wall: Death at Yosemite", which covers everyone who's met their doom inside the park.

http://www.amazon.com/Off-Wall-Yosem...th+at+yosemite

It has a chapter on folks who have gone missing.

I was an avid hiker and I can testify to how easy it can be to get lost, or do something incredibly stupid without knowing you're doing it until it's too late.

If you have a publisher or a link I'll check out one of the books just for fun.
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Old 21st November 2015, 10:22 PM   #8
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I stumbled across a while back and it fascinated me but I also took it with a grain of salt. I just don't know.

Tiktaalik said this, "there is a major search effort that usually involves multiple agencies. It is funded out of a major case fund, not that park's budget, so there's no reason to cut resources. Searches go on for days, sometimes longer, utilizing helicopters, foot searches, horseback searches, interviews, trackers, and other resources." I would assume that to be totally true.

From what I gathered from reading and watching vids was that his claim is that parks don't want these type of things getting out, not just normal 'getting lost incidences' but the 'Lost in Space' type that have very strange aspects such as the great distances involved of remains, but also allegedly their clothes being neatly folded and a bunch more.

This link is to many youtube vids about this about this subject.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P8FzOUzFP6w
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Old 22nd November 2015, 08:15 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by xterra View Post
Do you have an author or publisher reference?
Here's a link for the Death in Grand Canyon one:
http://www.amazon.com/Over-Edge-Cany...n+grand+canyon

See above for the Death in Yosemite one. I know quite a few people (both dead and rescuers) in both books.

As for the NPS 'not wanting it to get out' - that's totally impossible, given the obvious large number of resources deployed to any search scene and large numbers of people involved, plus - the reports are all subject to FOIA with personal details removed. People getting in accidents has never deterred visitation in the past, although in some places it might be good if it did.

Many park rangers will happily tell you all about LE, EMS, fire, and SAR events they've been involved in, the only exceptions being the possibility of violating the privacy act or ongoing criminal investigation. Disappearances in national parks are of special interest to many people, and in general all the info surrounding such cases is 'out there' or easily obtainable.

The other thing is, in many cases a tort or other claim is made by the families of the missing person(s). All reports and evidence are made available to counsel in those cases, so that's another way everything gets out.

I never saw anything remotely supernatural in all my years in the NPS, and in some places I was out in the park at all hours of the day and night, in all seasons and weather conditions. I saw some weird stuff - but 90% of it was people and the rest were optical illusions/atmospheric conditions, etc.
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Old 22nd November 2015, 08:58 AM   #10
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Thanks for the reference.

I knew some of the NPS people involved in the manslaughter case in Carlsbad Caverns, in which one hiker claimed to have killed the other because the deceased asked him to do so.

I wasn't there at the time, but when I volunteered at the park a few years after the event, people were still talking about it.

The book written about the case is:

http://www.amazon.com/Journal-Dead-F...words=Kodikian
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Old 22nd November 2015, 01:38 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
As for the NPS 'not wanting it to get out' - that's totally impossible, given the obvious large number of resources deployed to any search scene and large numbers of people involved, plus - the reports are all subject to FOIA with personal details removed. People getting in accidents has never deterred visitation in the past, although in some places it might be good if it did.

Many park rangers will happily tell you all about LE, EMS, fire, and SAR events they've been involved in, the only exceptions being the possibility of violating the privacy act or ongoing criminal investigation. Disappearances in national parks are of special interest to many people, and in general all the info surrounding such cases is 'out there' or easily obtainable.
Paulides acknowledges that at the time of a disappearance it is always a public thing where there is a multi-agency effort to find a person, that sometimes makes local news. His complaint isn't so much about that. What he's alleging the park doesn't want to "get out" is the combined number of cases over time. He claims that the policy in a missing persons case is to search, but after some certain amount of time - around 8 days or so - if a person is not found, then they are presumed dead and they are simply dropped from any kind of "system" - searches stop completely, the posters and notices come down from the website and the physical buildings in the park, nobody from that point forward is given any description or told to keep an eye out for the missing person. Perhaps that's understandable; you can't keep up a search effort indefinitely obviously. But most importantly, the name is never added to any kind of list of missing individuals kept by the park, the park police, or the park service at large.

As opposed to most police departments in the country where lists of missing people are maintained and publicly accessible, you can't go to the National Park website, or the park police's website, and search a database of people who have gone missing in, say, Yellowstone, or Great Smoky Mountains. Paulides contends he has been repeatedly told by the National Park police that no such database is maintained by the parks at all, not even in a physical paper form.

For what it's worth however, the focus of Paulides' books isn't on the Park Service; he doesn't seem to contend their less than enthusiastic cooperation with studies of missing persons is nefarious in nature. He seems to just find it frustrating enough to mention at times. The focus of the books is primarily on what he claims are highly unusual circumstances in which some people have gone missing or in which they (or their remains) have been found.
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Old 23rd November 2015, 07:18 AM   #12
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Nothing nefarious about there not being a single simple list of all people missing in national parks. Until fairly recently, there was no computerized national database for incident reports in national parks - each park kept its own database. You could go to each park and have them query that database by SAR: missing person and the code for disposition and find out. Now there is a national database for incident reports that could easily be queried in the same manner. As for no such database being maintained, that's just bunk. It's there in every park, in both computerized and paper form.

Another issue is that parks have various different types of jurisdiction: exclusive, concurrent, proprietary, or partial. This affects who takes the lead on a particular case. If the county takes the lead, for example, major case files are going to be maintained by the county rather than the park, with the park's report simply referencing county files. It's just the way it works; it's not some cover-up.

I've worked in the following parks: Yosemite, Big Thicket, Santa Monica Mountains, Joshua Tree, Glen Canyon, Glacier, and Dinosaur, and lived at Mammoth Cave, Death Valley, and Gateway. As far as I know, there are no 'odd clusters' of people disappearing in any of them under any circumstances more unusual than those in which people usually disappear in wilderness and backcountry areas. Of course he wants to hype it; he's trying to sell a book.

ETA: and the Park Police only operate in a very limited number of urban-interface parks. The rest (the vast majority) of parks are patrolled by Park Rangers, so no, the Park Police would not maintain such a list. He's talking to the wrong people if that's who he asked.

Last edited by Tiktaalik; 23rd November 2015 at 07:19 AM. Reason: add park police part
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Old 23rd November 2015, 06:53 PM   #13
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Alright, I listened to the show link. Thoughts...

He highlights the disappearances of children stating repeatedly that "there's no way a child of X age could possibly have traveled through dense forest, or climbed 3000 feet up a ridge or mountain..."

Then he sites cases where the FBI was involved and "refused to release information". Two cases also involve a search team of US Army Special Forces, and somehow their presence makes everything more sinister.

I worked for 14 years in a toy store. Toddlers and little kids are faster than mom and dad realize. I lost count of how many times a 3 year-old would see something on the other side of the store and make a beeline with almost a full minute before mom or dad noticed they are gone. The heart attack that followed was always a classic.

Folks who are parents will usually have one nightmare story about their kid(s) vanishing out from under them.

I work in a hotel now, and to my horror parents seem to be so caught up on itinerary that they'll actually leave a child behind in their haste.

A big problem is that children are small. This makes them hard to see and harder to find. Paulides implies that their disappearances might be Bigfoot or supernaturally related, and of course the government is in on it. He bases this on the unrealistic distances these missing children are found. The problem is that these distances are in no way unrealistic. Kids will always surprise you and there are always exceptions.

As a kid I was always climbing something, trees, cliffs, rocks, you name it, and on some summer days I might cover ten miles (there and back).

I have also gotten lost once on a hike as an adult. I can tell you that the moment I realized I was lost there are a solid minute of panic. I took a knee and calmed down. Then I turned around the way I'd come and continued until a reach a place where I knew I was no longer lost, and hiked out. My mistakes were these:

No compass
No map
Not familiar with the area but hiked in anyway.

What saved me was stopping to take stock. My instinct was to keep pushing forward, but later when I got a map I discovered this would have been a huge mistake. Had anything else happened while I was hiking in the wrong direction (broken leg, tree limb falling into my head, rattle snake) and nobody would have known where I was or where to look for me.

The reason people who get lost are hard to find is due to the difficulty in understanding their reasoning, why did they go in that direction and not this way? Small kids will chase small animals, and in some places the woods are so thick that they're gone out of view in seconds. Trees and vegetation can mask sound and alter its perceived direction, so when mom and dad start calling for them the kids will wander in the opposite direction following their voices.

I don't see a mystery here, and it's sad that someone is using this subject to make money off Woo crap.
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Old 23rd November 2015, 07:47 PM   #14
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It's very easy to take only the anomalous out of the tens of thousands of missing persons, viz "wilderness" reports. Alaska reports as many as 3000 a year. Many/most are likely solved, but it's much more fun to pick and choose the puzzlers, which are quite likely generally cases that are filed as "solved" but no one really did a massive forensic investigation. "Body of missing hiker found. Death deemed due to exposure" would be the headline and probably the extent of the investigation. "OMG, how'd he/she get 25 miles from the base camp!" cries the sensationalist or conspiradroid. Since no one's actually investigating the reasons (Case Solved gets it filed away), they can play with the speculation of connect-the-dots poor evidence and have a field day of it.
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Old 23rd November 2015, 08:12 PM   #15
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I was involved in hiking, canoeing and rock climbing for a very long time. It is infernally easy to get lost, as Axxman300 said, especially in an unfamiliar area, where one doesn't know the general topography or terrain and doesn't know exactly where one started.

One of the very first lessons I learned in hiking was to turn around and study the view in the direction in which you will return. This hill looks quite distinctive when hiking outward, but isn't even noticeable on the return.

Then there's the question of how far people can go, and how they maintain a course. Without practice, it's difficult to keep a straight line -- and that's without necessary detours like gullies, steep hills, etc.

For riveting accounts of mishaps, not to mention gruesome endings, find a copy of the American Alpine Club's annual volume called Accidents in North American Mountaineering. Any year will do.

There's no need to bring in Bigfoot or aliens or the Loch Ness monster with feet.

People who are not accustomed to the outdoors by definition do not have the experience to evaluate the accuracy of the accounts. (I say this not having read any of the books, so feel free to discount my posting.)
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Old 26th November 2015, 03:18 PM   #16
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Here's the latest radio interview:

NEW DAVID PAULIDES: MIND BENDING TALES NOV 13, 2015 (C2C)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE8k-A9qKBQ







............
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Old 27th November 2015, 01:31 AM   #17
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David Paulides is a disgraced cop who turned to fleecing the public with inaccurate and exaggerated tales after being fired.

Making money by exploiting dead children and their families' anguish with wildly speculative and outright falsehoods is a heinous crime - IMHO.

He deserves to be horsewhipped and run out of town on a rail.
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Old 27th November 2015, 02:12 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Alan Lowey View Post
Here's the latest radio interview:

NEW DAVID PAULIDES: MIND BENDING TALES NOV 13, 2015 (C2C)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OE8k-A9qKBQ
............
Did he suggest giant tail-hopping dragonflies were the real cause of the disappearances?
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Old 29th November 2015, 03:44 PM   #19
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I've read the western edition of Missing 411. It's basically a bunch of missing persons cases compiled into a book. It's not about Bigfoot and Paulides never mentions anything about Bigfoot. He also never gives his opinion on what he thinks is happening to these people, so it's pretty skeptical in that regard. He also doesn't exaggerate, but he tries hard to make the cases seem mysterious.
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Old 29th November 2015, 04:29 PM   #20
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Paulides will be lecturing at the Sasquatch Summit next year.

http://sasquatchsummit.com

People can ask him if it's possible that any of the missing 411 had Bigfoot as a perpetrator. His answer will not be, "no, because Bigfoot is a myth." Has has no choice other than to say, "it's certainly a possibility." I think it's a safe bet that he will have copies of Missing 411 to sell and autograph for the other Bigfooters. Paulides is a for-profit Bigfooter.
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Old 29th November 2015, 04:33 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
I've read the western edition of Missing 411. It's basically a bunch of missing persons cases compiled into a book. It's not about Bigfoot and Paulides never mentions anything about Bigfoot. He also never gives his opinion on what he thinks is happening to these people, so it's pretty skeptical in that regard. He also doesn't exaggerate, but he tries hard to make the cases seem mysterious.
You are convinced that aliens visit Earth from "Inner Space". The Missing 411 must be extra special for you in that regard.
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Old 29th November 2015, 07:14 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
You are convinced that aliens visit Earth from "Inner Space". The Missing 411 must be extra special for you in that regard.
The impression I got from the reading the cases was that there's a wide range of explanations for what's happening. I don't recall reading any cases that hinted towards alien abductions as a likely possibility.
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Old 29th November 2015, 07:39 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
The impression I got from the reading the cases was that there's a wide range of explanations for what's happening. I don't recall reading any cases that hinted towards alien abductions as a likely possibility.
But given what you have already said about what these aliens can do it seems no kind of stretch to imagine that they could cause people to disappear and make it look like they didn't do it.
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Old 29th November 2015, 09:13 PM   #24
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It's on my list of possible explanations.
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Old 30th November 2015, 05:35 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by OntarioSquatch View Post
It's on my list of possible explanations.
How high on the list?

Hopefully, a few notches down from the Hamburglar done it.
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Old 30th November 2015, 09:13 AM   #26
Alan Lowey
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Did he suggest giant tail-hopping dragonflies were the real cause of the disappearances?
My guess is Flying Humanoids that have evolved from one-way trachea tube giant dragonflies.

I've got all the books and the evidence points to something 'paranormal'. He states that whatever is the cause is mind-boggling.




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Old 30th November 2015, 10:12 PM   #27
Checkmite
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Paulides will be lecturing at the Sasquatch Summit next year.

http://sasquatchsummit.com

People can ask him if it's possible that any of the missing 411 had Bigfoot as a perpetrator. His answer will not be, "no, because Bigfoot is a myth." Has has no choice other than to say, "it's certainly a possibility." I think it's a safe bet that he will have copies of Missing 411 to sell and autograph for the other Bigfooters. Paulides is a for-profit Bigfooter.
For what it's worth, I disagree. Not that Paulides is a for-profit Bigfooter, but rather that he has no choice but to allow bigfoot as a "possibile" culprit. I've listened to a couple of the more recent radio interviews he has done for a couple of podcasts and of course the famous "coast to coast" radio show about his books, these interviews always managing to make it onto YouTube conveniently for me. It seems that the latest book in his series, that I guess came out this year, focuses on some disappearances from urban areas which he connects to the national park/wilderness disappearances (although personally I believe there are significant-enough differences between these and the cases covered by his earlier books - going by how he himself describes them all - to justify considering them two unrelated "sets" of mysterious disappearances, but obviously he has come to a different conclusion). Not going to bother recapping all of his arguments; but one important "similarity" among the urban disappearances he claims to have found, is the recurrence of a certain substance often used as a sedative or date-rape drug, found in a number of the bodies in the cases where bodies are found. I forget exactly which substance. But at that point, the host of "coast to coast" (honestly I forget who it is these days) brought up the fact that many listeners/readers of his prior books had suspected "bigfoot"; but "obviously bigfoot isn't going around stalking people in the city with a needle injecting them with sedatives", and Paulides seemed to assent to that deduction.

So at the conference I agree that his answer (if he decides to give one so committal) would not be "No, because bigfoot is a myth"; but I don't think it will be "that's a real possibility" either.

On another, earlier show, he elaborated a bit about why he will not let anyone nail him down as to a culprit. He said that it would be highly unlikely for the families of missings to approach him with new cases, or new information, if he were to develop a reputation as "that guy who thinks [weird thing] is responsible" for the death or disappearance of their loved one (he used an apparently off-the-cuff example of "a giant prehistoric bird"). So while being unspecific he is obviously conceding that he believes the cause of the disappearances/deaths is extraordinary.
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Old 9th December 2015, 10:41 AM   #28
Alan Lowey
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A 'cloaked predator' is a possible cause of Missing411 cases:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Missing411/...eople_cloaked/




...........
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Old 14th December 2015, 09:35 AM   #29
Alan Lowey
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This article was described as "Short but descriptive article outlining the essence of what Paulides' research is all about - baffling, utterly strange disappearances. Thanks for sharing! "


It Takes People In a Flash
http://www.enigmaticearth.com/2012/1...l#.Vm7u87899SF


................
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Old 14th December 2015, 11:15 PM   #30
Axxman300
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I listened to 4 hours of him on YouTube.

The problem is that he invests too much into eye-witness testimony. His refrain is that "there's now way they could have disappeared so fast" and "there is no possible way a child that young can move so far so fast in that terrain".

In both cases that is a presumption bases on generalization, and while I understand keeping things simple is usually the wiser choice, you have to accept that when it comes down to an individual case the facts will mostly be unique (this should go without saying).

Anyone who has spent a fair amount of time outside knows that the landscape can be deceptive. The best example I can think of right off the bat is San Francisco Bay, which the Spanish had discovered on horseback, but it took many years before they could find it from the sea due to thick fog obscuring the Golden Gate (it's why Monterey became the capital instead). People seem to "vanish" a few steps from the trail depending on where the witness is in relationship to them.
Then there is the alteration of a person's perception of time when they are in a new environment. A person will swear they've only looked a way for a moment when the fact is several minutes may have passed. I've lost track of time on many occasions and have finished a few hikes in the dark.
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Old 23rd December 2015, 12:09 PM   #31
Alan Lowey
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The art work for the film is impressive:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects.../posts/1407117
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Old 23rd December 2015, 12:23 PM   #32
Tiktaalik
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? I don't see any artwork at the link...
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Old 23rd December 2015, 12:54 PM   #33
Alan Lowey
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Originally Posted by Tiktaalik View Post
? I don't see any artwork at the link...

The poster is here:


............
Attached Images
File Type: jpg missing411.jpg (26.9 KB, 5 views)
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Old 9th January 2016, 09:46 AM   #34
Alan Lowey
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Coverage of the issue appears to be gaining momentum:

Quote:
Missing 411 and unexplained missing we want to hear from you!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Missing411/...ng_we_want_to/

Hi all, brand new to Reddit and haven't a clue if I'm correctly going about posting so bare with me while I find my feet ��

I'm Louise, a 28 year old brand new police officer from Scotland. Last year I came across Missing411 and became instantly gripped listening to every single radio interviews with David, articles etc becoming a totally missing 411 one geek. Suddenly after becoming aware of this I started seeing case while investigating which were identicle in nature to missing 411, prior to finding out about it the people I was tasked to find were just cases of people either wandering off on purpose or simply getting lost in areas we just can't reach leaving them undiscovered. Suddenly many of the missing cases started making sense so I started paying more attention to each case, it didn't take long for a certain group of people fitting the profile to flag up showing me it's happening in the UK on a massive scale. After meeting someone on David's Facebook page we both started our own research group covering the uk mainly but touching upon the USA cases from time to time. America has plenty of people in their corner researching this whereas the uk has non, and that's how An Immaculate Disappearance was born, we came together with the one goal of getting info out there to the wider public trying to keep them safe.
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Old 9th January 2016, 09:52 AM   #35
William Parcher
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Quote:
I'm Louise, a 28 year old brand new police officer from Scotland.
...and I can't spell words correctly even if my life depends on it.
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Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.
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