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Old 4th March 2016, 02:39 AM   #1
FalseFlag
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If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong.

The thread title is part of a famous quote by Richard P. Feynman. The full quote is, "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

Recently, two new videos were posted by Jonathan H. Cole, PE.

The first video is a response to the blacksmith video which recently went viral. The second video discusses the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2.

Everyone should watch them both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgCtvTmshZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJNzaMRsN00

Instead of attacking me, or Mr. Cole, I challenge anyone in this forum to conduct an experiment proving just ONE of Mr. Cole's claims are wrong. You pick the claim, and you make your own video showing how he is wrong. Words and computer models don't count. Prove, by an experiment conducted by yourself and documented in your own video, just one of Mr. Cole's claims are wrong.

I know this challenge will go unanswered until the end of time, but good luck, anyway.

So many skeptics on this forum insist the truther movement is dead. I think it's alive and well, and continuing to gain momentum.

Let the personal attacks begin. I know that is what will happen, because that is all the skeptics have.

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Old 4th March 2016, 02:50 AM   #2
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I love it when he nearly burns his face off with the torch.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:09 AM   #3
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Could you summarise each video. I'm not in the habit of watching random stuff without a reason.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:12 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
The first video is a response to the blacksmith video which recently went viral. The second video discusses the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2.

Everyone should watch them both.
Can't be bothered, on Cole's previous record. If you want a response, please summarise the claims and you'll get one, otherwise you're just pimping the videos. And I also won't bother doing any experiments to prove the obvious; YouTube is not the gold standard of scientific discussion.

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Old 4th March 2016, 03:14 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
Could you summarise each video. I'm not in the habit of watching random stuff without a reason.
Sure.

The first video proves, via experiment, that the viral blacksmith video is BS.

The second video proves, via several experiments, that the official story is BS. The video also contains an experiment that closely replicates the actual collapse of WTC1 and WTC2. Mr. Cole does this by blowing out the support columns in sequence, much like a controlled demolition.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:17 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Can't be bothered, on Cole's previous record. If you want a response, please summarise the claims and you'll get one, otherwise you're just pimping the videos. And I also won't bother doing any experiments to prove the obvious; YouTube is not the gold standard of scientific discussion.

Dave
So, your eyes are closed to the truth? Got it. You can't be bothered by anything that could possibly affect your delusions. Thank you for putting into writing what most truthers already suspected.

The fact that the videos are on YouTube is irrelevant. The fact that the experiments were performed by Mr. Cole is also irrelevant. Anyone, regardless of their background, could perform the same experiments and get the same results. That's the beauty of science and the laws of physics.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:18 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
Sure.

The first video proves, via experiment, that the viral blacksmith video is BS.

The second video proves, via several experiments, that the official story is BS. The video also contains an experiment that closely replicates the actual collapse of WTC1 and WTC2. Mr. Cole does this by blowing out the support columns in sequence, much like a controlled demolition.
Not prepared to state specific claims, then. The first video is clearly irrelevant, because the heat resistance of steel is what it is irrespective of any video bickering. I'd almost bet money that the second video is based on ignorance of scaling laws, because that's one of the whole truth movement's signature errors. But if you can't be bothered to state the claim, I can't be bothered to address it.

Dave
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:19 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
So, your eyes are closed to the truth?
Rule of So.

Dave
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:21 AM   #9
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Summary

Video 1: A bloke does an over simplified experiment to show that the blacksmith did on over simplified experiment. Halfway through he almost burns his face off with a cutting torch. Upshot, jet fuel can't melt steel beams.

Video 2: Talking, pictures, explanations about acceleration, little simplified models, firecrackers, CD. Upshot, pancake and pile driver do not account for the speed/lack of deceleration, CD does.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:21 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
Sure.

The first video proves, via experiment, that the viral blacksmith video is BS.

The second video proves, via several experiments, that the official story is BS. The video also contains an experiment that closely replicates the actual collapse of WTC1 and WTC2. Mr. Cole does this by blowing out the support columns in sequence, much like a controlled demolition.
He found a bloody great building a flew a plane into it?
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:24 AM   #11
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ps I have watched the blacksmith previously. I liked that one.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:24 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'd almost bet money that the second video is based on ignorance of scaling laws

Dave
In this case, scale is irrelevant. If you watched the video you would know this.

I hope that any truther who stumbles onto this website sees this post early on in their research. The fact that no one (or not everyone) is willing to watch the videos should be a clear sign that there is a problem here. Absolutely nothing that the skeptics argue should be taken with any seriousness. It is abundantly clear they have an agenda to perpetuate the lies in the official story, regardless of what evidence they are presented with.

This thread, and the responses of the skeptics, can not make that fact any clearer.

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Old 4th March 2016, 03:26 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
He found a bloody great building a flew a plane into it?
It's irrelevant.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:36 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
In this case, scale is irrelevant. If you watched the video you would know this.

I hope that any truther who stumbles onto this website sees this post early on in their research. The fact that no one (or not everyone) is willing to watch the videos should be a clear sign that there is a problem here. Absolutely nothing that the skeptics argue should be taken with any seriousness. It is abundantly clear they have an agenda to perpetuate the lies in the official story, regardless of what evidence they are presented with.

This thread, and the responses of the skeptics, can not make that fact any clearer.
If you were the first to post random rubbish, someone might even be bothering to take some sort of notice.

S&M and decaying horses, etc.
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Old 4th March 2016, 03:53 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
It's irrelevant.
Cole's experiments are designed to fail on purpose, why would I care about him?
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:01 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
Sure.

The first video proves, via experiment, that the viral blacksmith video is BS.
Would you be so kind as to lay a bit of foundation?

What is the "viral blacksmith video"? What claims does it make?

Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
The second video proves, via several experiments, that the official story is BS. The video also contains an experiment that closely replicates the actual collapse of WTC1 and WTC2. Mr. Cole does this by blowing out the support columns in sequence, much like a controlled demolition.
Oh, noes. "The Official Story". What part of the "Official Story" is, according to you, "BS"?

You might also want to use the term, "proves", with a bit more...precision.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:04 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by AClark View Post
Summary

Video 1: A bloke does an over simplified experiment to show that the blacksmith did on over simplified experiment. Halfway through he almost burns his face off with a cutting torch. Upshot, jet fuel can't melt steel beams.
Nobody ever claimed it could. Except troofers who set it up as a strawman. But you already knew this.

Originally Posted by AClark View Post
Video 2: Talking, pictures, explanations about acceleration, little simplified models, firecrackers, CD. Upshot, pancake and pile driver do not account for the speed/lack of deceleration, CD does.
Because everyone knows that CD locally alters gravity and violates GR. That's how CD works, isn't it?

Gimme a break.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:05 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
So, your eyes are closed to the truth? Got it. You can't be bothered by anything that could possibly affect your delusions. Thank you for putting into writing what most truthers already suspected.

The fact that the videos are on YouTube is irrelevant. The fact that the experiments were performed by Mr. Cole is also irrelevant. Anyone, regardless of their background, could perform the same experiments and get the same results. That's the beauty of science and the laws of physics.
...and yet you can't be aresed to state the specific claims of either video with any kind of precision.

Ever seen the YTv where David Copperfield makes the Statue of Liberty "disappear"?

To be perfectly clear, I teach high school science. Your claim that "...Anyone...could perform the same[sic] experiment..." exhibits a tender innocence about experimental design, and about the power of mendacity. Is there a place where Cole's "experiment" is written up, so that his "experiment" might be replicated?
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:06 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
So, your eyes are closed to the truth? Got it. You can't be bothered by anything that could possibly affect your delusions. Thank you for putting into writing what most truthers already suspected.

The fact that the videos are on YouTube is irrelevant. The fact that the experiments were performed by Mr. Cole is also irrelevant. Anyone, regardless of their background, could perform the same experiments and get the same results. That's the beauty of science and the laws of physics.
Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
The thread title is part of a famous quote by Richard P. Feynman. The full quote is, "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

Recently, two new videos were posted by Jonathan H. Cole, PE.

The first video is a response to the blacksmith video which recently went viral. The second video discusses the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2.

Everyone should watch them both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgCtvTmshZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJNzaMRsN00

Instead of attacking me, or Mr. Cole, I challenge anyone in this forum to conduct an experiment proving just ONE of Mr. Cole's claims are wrong. You pick the claim, and you make your own video showing how he is wrong. Words and computer models don't count. Prove, by an experiment conducted by yourself and documented in your own video, just one of Mr. Cole's claims are wrong.

I know this challenge will go unanswered until the end of time, but good luck, anyway.

So many skeptics on this forum insist the truther movement is dead. I think it's alive and well, and continuing to gain momentum.

Let the personal attacks begin. I know that is what will happen, because that is all the skeptics have.

Hmm. I'm not sure about your grasp of the laws of physics.

You clearly don't understand momentum.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:11 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Would you be so kind as to lay a bit of foundation?

What is the "viral blacksmith video"? What claims does it make?
Service with a smile. The blacksmith video is of a blacksmith in his workshop getting peeved with 911 truther claims. He takes a piece of steel, heats it up and demonstrates how it loses it's structural integrity without any need for it to melt. Truthers don't like it.

Only about 2 mins. Enjoy.

Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Oh, noes. "The Official Story". WHat part of the "Official Story" is, according to you, "BS"?

You might also want to use the term, "proves", with a bit more...precision.
Oh my. Aren't you the eternal optomist.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:13 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by AClark View Post
Summary

Video 1: A bloke does an over simplified experiment to show that the blacksmith did on over simplified experiment. Halfway through he almost burns his face off with a cutting torch. Upshot, jet fuel can't melt steel beams.
What does the supposed inability of a high-energy heat source to "melt" steel beams have to do with how the WCT collapsed?

Originally Posted by AClark View Post
Video 2: Talking, pictures, explanations about acceleration, little simplified models, firecrackers, CD. Upshot, pancake and pile driver do not account for the speed/lack of deceleration, CD does.
As expected. Here's the root of at least one part of your misunderstanding. Consider the chestnut about the Agriculturist, the Psychiatrist, and the Physicist designing a cow barn...

Perhaps you do not realize that the WTC was not brought down by firecrackers.

Where has Cole written up his demo, so that it might be replicated?
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:14 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Nobody ever claimed it could. Except troofers who set it up as a strawman. But you already knew this.

Because everyone knows that CD locally alters gravity and violates GR. That's how CD works, isn't it?

Gimme a break.
Wind your neck in, I am not endorsing or debunking any claims here, I was simply giving a summary of the videos for those who did not, or would not watch them.

Don't make this personal.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:15 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
He found a bloody great building a flew a plane into it?
"Little simplified models".

He built a house of cards, and threw a paper airplane carrying fircrackers at it; therefore the Knights of Malta.

Because science!
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:16 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
one part of your misunderstanding.

See my reply to abaddon. I was simply summarising the content, not offering an opinion.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:16 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
The thread title is part of a famous quote by Richard P. Feynman. The full quote is, "It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong."

Recently, two new videos were posted by Jonathan H. Cole, PE.

The first video is a response to the blacksmith video which recently went viral. The second video discusses the collapse of WTC1 and WTC2.

Everyone should watch them both.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgCtvTmshZ8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJNzaMRsN00

Instead of attacking me, or Mr. Cole, I challenge anyone in this forum to conduct an experiment proving just ONE of Mr. Cole's claims are wrong. You pick the claim, and you make your own video showing how he is wrong. Words and computer models don't count. Prove, by an experiment conducted by yourself and documented in your own video, just one of Mr. Cole's claims are wrong.

I know this challenge will go unanswered until the end of time, but good luck, anyway.

So many skeptics on this forum insist the truther movement is dead. I think it's alive and well, and continuing to gain momentum.

Let the personal attacks begin. I know that is what will happen, because that is all the skeptics have.
If you want to do proper experiments your self to prove Cole wrong, I could easily write up a design explaining why Cole's experiments did not work and showing how to properly design actual experiments that would be accurate.
Doing real and accurate experiments is expensive though, my last one cost me about 1100$ and that was a simple one!
I just can't see spending my money debunking Cole.
PS. Stating the obvious is not attacking Cole, it is only stating the obvious, debunking either the blacksmith or Cole is Irrelevant, because I did that long ago, in a chimney effect experiment, Cole has never ever done a chimney effect experiment, because they are costly and dangerous to duplicate, you have to actually build a multistory structure and the place inside the fuels.
A chimney effect is key to understanding the chemistry of the fires without it any experiment into the fires is worthless.

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Old 4th March 2016, 04:17 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
"Little simplified models".

He built a house of cards, and threw a paper airplane carrying fircrackers at it; therefore the Knights of Malta.

Because science!
By Jove, you've cracked it!

Except the firecrackers were taped to the cards, not the aeroplane.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:19 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Service with a smile. The blacksmith video is of a blacksmith in his workshop getting peeved with 911 truther claims. He takes a piece of steel, heats it up and demonstrates how it loses it's structural integrity without any need for it to melt. Truthers don't like it........
Surely no-one argues that steel has to melt to lose its strength?

As an architect, I've visited a number of fire damaged buildings. The most interesting ones are the old oak-framed half-timbered ("black & white") buildings from the 17th century, particularly when there has been a modern extension. Inevitably, the old frame remains, and can almost always be entirely re-used in the re-build, but the modern steel beam sag in damn great U shapes, sometimes reaching the floor in the middle whilst remaining on their ceiling-high supports at either end. Catastrophic collapse of steel occurs at lower temperatures than that required to take out a timber framed building, and without any jet fuel involved.

If someone's experiment shows anything different from that, the experiment is flawed, or deliberately contrived.

Here's someone else's photo.


Here's a report into the effect of fire on steel. Scroll to figure 2.1, which shows that steel loses 80% of its strength at 700C. It would be unlikely to be able to support itself at that point, let alone any imposed loads. Fig 2.4 shows that bolts give up even sooner.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:20 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
In this case, scale is irrelevant. If you watched the video you would know this.
Again, your problems start here. Scale is not only always relevant, it is definitive, especially in modeling forces. If you had passed high school Physics (heck, if you had passed high school Physical Science), you would know this.

Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
I hope that any truther who stumbles onto this website sees this post early on in their research. The fact that no one (or not everyone) is willing to watch the videos should be a clear sign that there is a problem here. Absolutely nothing that the skeptics argue should be taken with any seriousness. It is abundantly clear they have an agenda to perpetuate the lies in the official story, regardless of what evidence they are presented with.

This thread, and the responses of the skeptics, can not make that fact any clearer.
One more time: where are the methods, materials, and constraints of Cole's demo written up, that they might be replicated?
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:25 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Surely no-one argues that steel has to melt to lose its strength?
Implausible as it may sound, yes, they do. It's an unintended consequence of the whole "jet fuel cant melt steel" malarkey.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:28 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Service with a smile. The blacksmith video is of a blacksmith in his workshop getting peeved with 911 truther claims. He takes a piece of steel, heats it up and demonstrates how it loses it's structural integrity without any need for it to melt. Truthers don't like it.
Only about 2 mins. Enjoy.

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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Oh my. Aren't you the eternal optomist.
Inorite? It's part of my boyish charm and rogueish appeal.

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Last edited by Slowvehicle; 4th March 2016 at 04:38 AM.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:33 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by AClark View Post
See my reply to abaddon. I was simply summarising the content, not offering an opinion.
"Wind your neck in."

Your "summary" contains, apparently without you realizing it, the reason that Cole's "work" is inherently misleading (at best).

If you realized this, you should have been more careful. If you did not realize this, you should be educating yourself better.

You're welcome.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:35 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by AClark View Post
By Jove, you've cracked it!

Except the firecrackers were taped to the cards, not the aeroplane.
AH. Another acolyte of the Church of CD.

It is to snerk.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:36 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Implausible as it may sound, yes, they do. It's an unintended consequence of the whole "jet fuel cant melt steel" malarkey.
Well, there may be irretrievable levels of stupidity at work, then. There are thousands of examples and studies which show, trivially easily and without any wiggle room, that steel seriously weakens at relatively low temperatures. Is this the best these people have got?
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:53 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Well, there may be irretrievable levels of stupidity at work, then. There are thousands of examples and studies which show, trivially easily and without any wiggle room, that steel seriously weakens at relatively low temperatures. Is this the best these people have got?
Yes. Some have never been able to get away from the idea that the steel had to melt for collapse to happen. Funny how wrong ideas can become so entrenched that even efforts to educate are seen as part of a conspiracy.
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Old 4th March 2016, 04:56 AM   #35
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Well, I'm glad I've never got involved with this subject, because arguing with that level of ignorance would give me a headache.
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Old 4th March 2016, 05:06 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
I'd almost bet money that the second video is based on ignorance of scaling laws, because that's one of the whole truth movement's signature errors.
Can't tell about the second, because I haven't watched it and probably won't, but the first certainly does that mistake. He heats a steel bar at one point only, and notes that the top doesn't accelerate down by gravity alone. It doesn't say it explicitly, but it implies that such a result can be extrapolated to the towers.

On an unrelated note, he holds the steel bar with the naked hand. So much for "steel is a good heat conductor".
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Old 4th March 2016, 05:07 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
Again, your problems start here. Scale is not only always relevant, it is definitive, especially in modeling forces. If you had passed high school Physics (heck, if you had passed high school Physical Science), you would know this.
My concern is what Cole's excuse is. He's supposedly an engineer.
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Old 4th March 2016, 05:11 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by pgimeno View Post
Can't tell about the second, because I haven't watched it and probably won't, but the first certainly does that mistake. He heats a steel bar at one point only, and notes that the top doesn't accelerate down by gravity alone.
Jesus. There's a word for people like that, but I can't use it here.

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Old 4th March 2016, 05:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Slowvehicle View Post
"Wind your neck in."

Your "summary" contains, apparently without you realizing it, the reason that Cole's "work" is inherently misleading (at best).

If you realized this, you should have been more careful. If you did not realize this, you should be educating yourself better.
.
I don't know what you mean by this.

When I say Upshot... I am summarising the conclusion of Cole, not offering an opinion. Any hints, implications etc are made by Cole in the video.

If anything my review was scathing towards Cole, not endorsing him.
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Old 4th March 2016, 05:12 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by FalseFlag View Post
Sure.

The first video proves, via experiment, that the viral blacksmith video is BS.

The second video proves, via several experiments, that the official story is BS. The video also contains an experiment that closely replicates the actual collapse of WTC1 and WTC2. Mr. Cole does this by blowing out the support columns in sequence, much like a controlled demolition.
The support columns in the all three towers were not blown out or destroyed in sequence. This is wrong and an unproven assertion and a cartoon conception of a high rise collapse based on the limited concept that the columns hold up the floors and to collapse the building you have to destroy the columns in sequence. Virtually ALL the columns survived the collapsed intact, undamaged... certainly for the twin towers.

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