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Tags "Hellstorm" , war crimes , World War II history

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Old 13th May 2016, 10:55 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
It has nothing to do with the iniquities of Allied area bombing or Soviet misdeeds on German soil. It is about "persons of European descent" averting the supposed "Jewish" New World Order.

The ironic part for me was revealed rcently when my aunt had DNA testing. Seems that our Jewish blood is hovering around 10% western Eurpoean. My aunt was excited that we had non-Jewish relatives from some long-ago mixed marriage. I had to break it to her that I doubted the coupling was entirely consensual.

My point is that I'm Jewish AND European. I don't know which side I should take.


Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
There is nothing comparable to the "Commissar Order" for the forces fighting the Western powers, and the deliberate mistreatment of Soviet PWs from Barbarossa on

Kurt Vonnegut described both the Allied bombing of Dresden and the Nazi mistreatment of Soviet POWs in the same book.


Originally Posted by Gord_in_Toronto View Post
No. No. No. You are so wrong -- Hitler was a cat-fancier!

"Hitler was a wonderful painter. He could paint an entire apartment in one afternoon - two coats!"


Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I also wonder what the two regimes thought would happen if they had won. You can't have both Germans and Japanese being racially superior to each other. They both had a racist philosophy.

Except for Australia, I don't think Japanese imperial ambitions extended to the "white" world. Eventually, of course, they would have butted against each other.


Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
The Soviets raped their way through Poland, and freely looted and destroyed civilian property, when they were supposedly liberating it from Germans

In their defense, they were pretty drunk.


ETA: That's not really much of a defense.
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Old 13th May 2016, 11:10 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
Except for Australia, I don't think Japanese imperial ambitions extended to the "white" world. Eventually, of course, they would have butted against each other.
The Germans envisioned the Japanese to be eventually enslaved, like other "Asiatics", as I recall. The Japanese, I imagine, simply held incomprehensible rants about the divine mandate of The Emperor and the invincibility of Yamato Damashii.
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Old 13th May 2016, 11:20 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
And I think we nuked a hundred thousand Japanese civilians.
Some of them twice even.
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Old 13th May 2016, 11:35 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Ortona was a house-to-house battle. So blowing up a building just to kill a few soldiers, it seems, wasn't viewed as a 'fair' fight. 'Fair' was to fight to clear each building (which the Germans were quite prepared to defend).
Interesting. It seems the Canadians made the mistake of assuming there was no limit to German willingness to sacrifice lives instead of structures, in battle.
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Old 13th May 2016, 11:52 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Interesting. It seems the Canadians made the mistake of assuming there was no limit to German willingness to sacrifice lives instead of structures, in battle.


I'm not so sure it was a question of Canucks being pissed of because of ruse de guerre, but rather that they'd fallen for it.
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Old 13th May 2016, 12:29 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
.

Kurt Vonnegut described both the Allied bombing of Dresden and the Nazi mistreatment of Soviet POWs in the same book.
..
Shows what a **** he was then.
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Old 13th May 2016, 12:35 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Shows what a **** he was then.
He had a biased view, being stuck there at the time.
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Old 13th May 2016, 12:51 PM   #48
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https://m.reddit.com/r/badhistory/co...ary_hellstorm/
Thought I add this.
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Old 13th May 2016, 02:08 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by ryu238 View Post
Quote:
00:00:00 blah blah blah white guy with bad hair

00:00:12 "by Thomas Goodrich and Kyle Hunt" two nazis. good start

00:00:18 the story you never see in school textbooks in the US. Sigh

00:00:26 the production company logo is the black sun an SS occult symbol. You get what you pay for I guess.
Snip

Quote:
00:02:13 "the situation seemed hopeless. And then things changed dramatically" Queue weimar? How about Hjalmar Schact? nope. You guessed it THE NAZIS!!!!. You'd think they were highschoolers crushing. "My life was terrible, but then I saw him, and suddenly it was worth living! swoon"

00:02:19 [uplifting music] "soon after the NSDAP was elected the german economy sprang to life, unemployment was erased, building boomed, great projects began." I'll let comrade /u/froghurt explain here

00:02:39 "germany became a happy hopeful nation again" unless you were jewish. no source cited either

00:02:51 blah blah blah, sucking off hitler, he did nothing wrong, time man of the year, happy nazis
Sounds like an accurate review
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Old 13th May 2016, 02:17 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Well, maybe "excuse" was a bit of a wrong choice of wording. I'm just saying it's not a very convincing explanation, if they were doing the same crap before the explaining factor even existed.

I did say partial explanation.

One can no doubt offer up plenty of other factors, just as you have done.


Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
Out of all belligerent nations, the USSR used by far the most female soldiers in WW2. And some were captured by the Germans. A lot were executed or horribly mistreated by the Germans, but those liberated from prisoner camps by the advancing Soviet troops... were gang raped first by their Soviet male comrades.

Didn't Soviet officialdom, and thus by extension the troops themselves, hold a dim view of those who had been prisoners of Germany? Something along the lines they should have died for the motherland rather than surrendering to the Nazis?



Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
I'm not so sure it was a question of Canucks being pissed of because of ruse de guerre, but rather that they'd fallen for it.

Fair enough.
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Old 13th May 2016, 02:59 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
I was just wondering if Mondial would weigh in, or is he a "post and run" sort?

I mean, the OP says that bad things were done by both sides in the war. Of course that's true. When the entire force of the industrial world is applied to killing each other, some pretty awful stuff is going to happen.

And.....?

Perhaps he can explain.
Mondial has a long history here of posting Holocaust Denial crap and other Neo Nazi propaganda.
And,yeah, "Post and Run" is his main tactic..
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Old 13th May 2016, 03:00 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by ryu238 View Post
And a bit more, I'll see whether the swear filter breaks...

Quote:
:14:40 OOOH DRESDEN! I wrote a piece about dresden in reaction. read it here You know where else had towering cathedrals, irreplacable treasures, ornate palaces, and world renowned museums and art galleries? Leningrad. You know what city experienced the greatest cataclysm to ever happen to a city? Leningrad. You know what city wasn't german? *********** LENINGRAD. And the nazis did their best to flatten that, sooo, yeah.

00:19:56 I'm not sure what the point of this is? Like, yeah, we bombed the **** out of the germans. That is a known fact. It isn't anything near the holocaust, it wasn't genocide, it's just a false equivalence. URGHGHGH

00:24:16 over 200,000 deaths! wow! that's like, almost a fifth as many civilians as died in leningrad. A city who had, before the war, a population greater than paris or rome, and more than double Los Angeles. A city of 3.5 million, reduced to 300,000 after the siege broke. In the first half of 1942 the city averaged 100,000 casualties a month Let that sink in.
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Old 13th May 2016, 03:04 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It does appear that Mondial is indeed a "post and run" sort. Trollish.

Meadmaker is a Hitler Hugging Nazi Apologist.What do you expect,good manners?
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Old 13th May 2016, 03:19 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Shows what a **** he was then.

I didn't say he equated them, I just mention that he described them. He didn't pass judgment on either nation in Slaughterhouse Five except to condemn war in general by sub-titling the book The Children's War.

My point was that there are people who saw a lot of horror from all directions during the war. He found both the bombing of Dresden and the mistreatment of Soviet POWs to both be pretty awful to witness.
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Old 13th May 2016, 04:12 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Meadmaker is a Hitler Hugging Nazi Apologist.What do you expect,good manners?
Ummm......that was a typo, wasn't it? I assume you meant Mondial?

Assuming you did, then, yeah, it isn't exactly surprising. However, I always look forward to a chance to talk to a real crazy, and holocaust deniers are pretty high on the list of crazy. It's always the challenge to see if you can get them to crack, just a little.

It's so hard, because the temptation is always to provide evidence and rational argument, but if that would convince them, there would be no need to convince them.

I find that some of them are just totally irrational Jew haters. Some are just sort of Oppositional-Defiant sorts that don't even understand what they are disagreeing with, but by gum they know that everyone says one thing, so they'll say the opposite. A few are pseudo-skeptics. By that, I mean people who are naturally skeptical (which is good, if you ask me) but to the point that they don't actually evaluate evidence. They shrug off with a "how can you know if you weren't there?" or something. It's not that they believe the holocaust never happened. It's just that they refused to be convinced of anything.

I was curious what sort Mondial was. I suppose I'll just have to glean ideas from an occasional OP.
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Old 13th May 2016, 04:33 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
Ummm......that was a typo, wasn't it? I assume you meant Mondial?

Assuming you did, then, yeah, it isn't exactly surprising. However, I always look forward to a chance to talk to a real crazy, and holocaust deniers are pretty high on the list of crazy. It's always the challenge to see if you can get them to crack, just a little.

It's so hard, because the temptation is always to provide evidence and rational argument, but if that would convince them, there would be no need to convince them.

I find that some of them are just totally irrational Jew haters. Some are just sort of Oppositional-Defiant sorts that don't even understand what they are disagreeing with, but by gum they know that everyone says one thing, so they'll say the opposite. A few are pseudo-skeptics. By that, I mean people who are naturally skeptical (which is good, if you ask me) but to the point that they don't actually evaluate evidence. They shrug off with a "how can you know if you weren't there?" or something. It's not that they believe the holocaust never happened. It's just that they refused to be convinced of anything.

I was curious what sort Mondial was. I suppose I'll just have to glean ideas from an occasional OP.
Or just check his posting history.......
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Old 13th May 2016, 04:40 PM   #57
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I suggest we merge this thread with Travis's earlier Hellstorm thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=302928
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Old 14th May 2016, 01:00 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I suggest we merge this thread with Travis's earlier Hellstorm thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=302928
Don't forget the Churchill War Criminal thread. it's exactly the same.
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Old 14th May 2016, 04:22 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And a bit more, I'll see whether the swear filter breaks...
Also Coventry was a nice-ish place too.
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Old 14th May 2016, 04:27 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Also Coventry was a nice-ish place too.
So was Guernica
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Old 14th May 2016, 05:33 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
Ortona was a house-to-house battle. So blowing up a building just to kill a few soldiers, it seems, wasn't viewed as a 'fair' fight. 'Fair' was to fight to clear each building (which the Germans were quite prepared to defend).
Just to throw in my 2 cents late, it still seems to me like a perfectly good and normal ambush. War isn't about fighting fair. (Well, as long as you don't take it out on civilians.)

Plus, both sides had tanks dedicated to levelling buildings instead of fighting through them. Not just behemoths like the Sturmtiger, but even stuff like the 150mm Sturm-Infanteriegeschütz 33B were build specifically so you can just collapse a house instead of fighting your way through it, if it's too well defended. And the allies also had such vehicles, for the same purpose, e.g., the demolition mortar equipped AVRE.

I guess, technically it didn't even necessarily have to be a prepared ambush. If they had a heavy caliber StuG around, they could just lob a bomb into the house when the Canadians chased them out. I mean, at that point it was kinda hard to use those offensively any more, anyway.

Anyway, it seems to me more like the Canadians just got a lesson in trickster tactics, and by the sound of it, they learned it well.
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Old 14th May 2016, 05:14 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
During World War 2 both sides committed war crimes and atrocities. The propaganda that the Allies were the "good guys" and the Axis were the "bad guys" belongs in a comic book. Everything is not so black and white. The new documentary Hellstorm shows the crimes of the victors - saturation bombing designed to level German cities and kill the maximum number of civilians, mass rape, the largest ethnic cleansing in European history when over 10 million Germans were forcibly expelled from eastern Europe, looting of artwork and monuments etc - www.hellstormdocumentary.com
Unfortunately. as has been pointed out oh so many times in these threads, you and so many others do not actually know and moreso do not know how to correctly interpret/follow those rules. I will here cover only the ones most important to blot your ideas out. ANY location that is involved in any way with assisting/supporting/transporting/communicating with/supplying/producing materiels for the military of the enemy is a legitimate target of war - this even includes hospitals, schools, churches (etc.) near military targets unless it is easily possible to avoid them. In addition, it is illegal under those rules (i.e. a war crime) to put military positions/communications/operations of any kind near such as that makes the civilians attackable indirectly as does having troops move civilians with them to provide cover (this is more Arab/related "fighters" who dress like and move with women to avoid being well and thoroughly shot down like the dogs they are by the Israelis). You are not required to like or agree with this, but that has no bearing on the fact that it is FACT. Seriously, it is a war crime for an army/ it's members to use it's civilians in any way that endangers them. It is not a war crime to destroy the military targets placed where civilians will be endangered but it is one to have placed those civilians in such danger.
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Old 15th May 2016, 12:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
I had to break it to her that I doubted the coupling was entirely consensual.

My point is that I'm Jewish AND European. I don't know which side I should take.
"Coupling" of Jews and "Europeans" has been known to be consensual; or at least I have occasion to hope so, as I am aware of instances of the phenomenon.

I have always regarded European Jews as European, by the way.

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Old 15th May 2016, 03:48 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
"Coupling" of Jews and "Europeans" has been known to be consensual; or at least I have occasion to hope so, as I am aware of instances of the phenomenon.
I've tried, but no dice.
Quote:
I have always regarded European Jews as European, by the way.
Had a Catholic boss from Munich. You know those Jewish stereotypes, like stinginess frugality and an obsession with bowel movements? Those aren't Jewish traits, they are GERMAN traits, based on German/Yiddish-speaking Jewish immigrants.

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Old 15th May 2016, 04:17 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I've tried, but no dice.
Had a Catholic boss from Munich. You know those Jewish stereotypes, like stinginess frugality and an obsession with bowel movements? Those aren't Jewish traits, they are GERMAN traits, based on German/Yiddish-speaking Jewish immigrants.
Absolutely. The reason they became stereotypical of Jews is that Jews were pouring into western Europe and the US as refugees from the mid-1800s on. German immigrants, while certainly present, had a much smaller footprint.



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Old 15th May 2016, 06:42 PM   #66
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Wife is primarily Polish. I'm primarily German, with a splash of German Jew and German Bohemian. For 40 years it's been "You are cheap. I am frugal," back and forth. She's cheap. I'm frugal.
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Old 19th May 2016, 05:53 PM   #67
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Actually, I think Jewish stereotypes, at least those (as far as I can gather) that made it to the USA, are a mix of several conflicting national and cultural stereotypes and tropes. I think a bunch of them sound Russian for example, some overlap with Italian stereotypes, etc. I guess it's partially just a mix-and-match based on Jews coming from different countries, but also partially a mix of the generic xenophobic tropes that people assign to other people they distrust or don't like.

I mean, if you look at the negative tropes and wordings (yeah, "cheap" vs "frugal" is a very good example) that people assigned to other ethnic groups across space and time, you kind of end up with the same all across the globe. And all the way from ancient Greece to modern day.
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Old 20th May 2016, 02:27 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by dropzone View Post
I've tried, but no dice.
Had a Catholic boss from Munich. You know those Jewish stereotypes, like stinginess frugality and an obsession with bowel movements? Those aren't Jewish traits, they are GERMAN traits, based on German/Yiddish-speaking Jewish immigrants.
Martin Luther was also obsessed with his bowels; he suffered from chronic constipation and spent much of his time "in contemplation" on the toilet, hence "The spiritus sanctus imparted this creation to me on dis cloaca".
He was also extremely anti-semitic of course.
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Old 21st May 2016, 08:29 PM   #69
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Hey, when we rounded up people and put them in camps, we didn't turn them into soap. That's how I sleep well at night.

Seriously, though, there are no good guys in war. There's just less bad.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 01:55 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
Hey, when we rounded up people and put them in camps, we didn't turn them into soap. That's how I sleep well at night.

Seriously, though, there are no good guys in war. There's just less bad.
We rounded them up and put them on the Isle of Man at first until their good intentions were clear.

I find it poetic that the most prominent British Nazi traitor (Lord Haw Haw) was captured by British intelligence soldiers that included one who had been German Jew before becoming a refugee.

(Sorce - The King's Most Loyal Enemy Aliens: Germans Who Fought for Britain in the Second World War)
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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Old 22nd May 2016, 01:58 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
We rounded them up and put them on the Isle of Man at first until their good intentions were clear.
The Horror!
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Old 22nd May 2016, 02:29 AM   #72
Craig B
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
We rounded them up and put them on the Isle of Man at first until their good intentions were clear.

I find it poetic that the most prominent British Nazi traitor (Lord Haw Haw) was captured by British intelligence soldiers that included one who had been German Jew before becoming a refugee.

(Sorce - The King's Most Loyal Enemy Aliens: Germans Who Fought for Britain in the Second World War)
Some foolish decisions were made, as demonstrated here, when Jewish refugees from Nazi persecution were interned as enemy aliens, under Churchill's "collar the lot" principle. But these anomalies were generally soon corrected.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 02:40 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
We rounded them up and put them on the Isle of Man at first until their good intentions were clear.
At least it wasn't Wales.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 03:26 AM   #74
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I'm probably one of the few watching this disgraceful video. One part alleges that German authorities had to stack bodies of Dresden victims so they could incinerate them. This rings true. They had ample practice.....
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Old 22nd May 2016, 05:06 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm probably one of the few watching this disgraceful video. One part alleges that German authorities had to stack bodies of Dresden victims so they could incinerate them. This rings true. They had ample practice.....
Luckily Lionking, someone else has posted a very thorough review of the video on reddit:

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Originally Posted by ryu238 View Post
Quote:
00:00:00 blah blah blah white guy with bad hair

00:00:12 "by Thomas Goodrich and Kyle Hunt" two nazis. good start

00:00:18 the story you never see in school textbooks in the US. Sigh

00:00:26 the production company logo is the black sun an SS occult symbol. You get what you pay for I guess.
Snip

Quote:
00:02:13 "the situation seemed hopeless. And then things changed dramatically" Queue weimar? How about Hjalmar Schact? nope. You guessed it THE NAZIS!!!!. You'd think they were highschoolers crushing. "My life was terrible, but then I saw him, and suddenly it was worth living! swoon"

00:02:19 [uplifting music] "soon after the NSDAP was elected the german economy sprang to life, unemployment was erased, building boomed, great projects began." I'll let comrade /u/froghurt explain here

00:02:39 "germany became a happy hopeful nation again" unless you were jewish. no source cited either

00:02:51 blah blah blah, sucking off hitler, he did nothing wrong, time man of the year, happy nazis
Sounds like an accurate review
ETA:

Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Originally Posted by ryu238 View Post
And a bit more, I'll see whether the swear filter breaks...

Quote:
:14:40 OOOH DRESDEN! I wrote a piece about dresden in reaction. read it here You know where else had towering cathedrals, irreplacable treasures, ornate palaces, and world renowned museums and art galleries? Leningrad. You know what city experienced the greatest cataclysm to ever happen to a city? Leningrad. You know what city wasn't german? *********** LENINGRAD. And the nazis did their best to flatten that, sooo, yeah.

00:19:56 I'm not sure what the point of this is? Like, yeah, we bombed the **** out of the germans. That is a known fact. It isn't anything near the holocaust, it wasn't genocide, it's just a false equivalence. URGHGHGH

00:24:16 over 200,000 deaths! wow! that's like, almost a fifth as many civilians as died in leningrad. A city who had, before the war, a population greater than paris or rome, and more than double Los Angeles. A city of 3.5 million, reduced to 300,000 after the siege broke. In the first half of 1942 the city averaged 100,000 casualties a month Let that sink in.
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link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
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US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending

Last edited by jimbob; 22nd May 2016 at 05:08 AM.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 10:10 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
I'm probably one of the few watching this disgraceful video. One part alleges that German authorities had to stack bodies of Dresden victims so they could incinerate them. This rings true. They had ample practice.....

I always find it illustrative how folks of the ilk in question go on and on about Dresden yet are apparently totally ignorant of Hamburg, Kessel, and Tokyo. It's too much to ask, I guess, to read a little bit more of history.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 01:00 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Corsair 115 View Post
I always find it illustrative how folks of the ilk in question go on and on about Dresden yet are apparently totally ignorant of Hamburg, Kessel, and Tokyo. It's too much to ask, I guess, to read a little bit more of history.
What "ilk" is in question?
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Old 22nd May 2016, 01:52 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
What "ilk" is in question?
The OP - equating the moral stature of the Nazis and the Western Allies.
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http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
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Old 22nd May 2016, 02:27 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Mondial View Post
During World War 2 both sides committed war crimes and atrocities. The propaganda that the Allies were the "good guys" and the Axis were the "bad guys" belongs in a comic book. Everything is not so black and white. The new documentary Hellstorm shows the crimes of the victors - saturation bombing designed to level German cities and kill the maximum number of civilians, mass rape, the largest ethnic cleansing in European history when over 10 million Germans were forcibly expelled from eastern Europe, looting of artwork and monuments etc - www.hellstormdocumentary.com
War bringsout the best and the worst in any society. Tere are good people and there are bad people. Its usually the bad people that get talked about unless your the winner of a war and then you tell everyone that everything your country and its soldiers did was good.
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Old 22nd May 2016, 06:37 PM   #80
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Why the name "Hellstorm"?
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