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Tags michael jackson , sex scandals

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Old 15th March 2019, 12:11 AM   #1041
mgidm86
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I just started watching the documentary after skimming this thread. Not sure why. I made it about 45 seconds in and realized:

- I rarely watch documentaries because they are often terrible.
- I don't care about this story enough to sit through it. I made it as far as the opening paragraph of one of the victims.

"He was great, loving, helped me tremendously with my career....and he sexually abused me" Then the ominous music

Great opening line! Can you say it one more time? The lighting was a little off.

'Click'.

Don't care. Pathetic that I almost did.
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Old 15th March 2019, 12:39 AM   #1042
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I have looked over this thread, and a lot of people just don't get how powerful show biz celebs are in Southern California. They are quite literally above the law unless caught red handed. I give you OJ as an example.
How do you think Harvey Weinstein got away with if for so long.
I'll give you this - yes, you are correct in this, although I live right next to DC.

And again, I reject the idea that there's some massive conspiracy to get MJ, or Bill Cosby or whoever.

Third, I haven't watched "leaving Neverland" and I may never do so. And it's for the same reason I didn't see the recent R. Kelly movie, although in his case, I absolutely knew the deal. For me, these just bring up bad memories, and just lead to anger and frustration, regardless of if they're true or not.
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Old 15th March 2019, 01:58 AM   #1043
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FWIW, "official" may involve conclusions made through a formal investigation initiated by authorities.
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Old 15th March 2019, 05:41 AM   #1044
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
And?
The book - complete fiction - predates the "similar" allegations.

Last edited by Information Analyst; 15th March 2019 at 05:47 AM.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:17 AM   #1045
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
The book - complete fiction - predates the "similar" allegations.
I guess someone had a good enough understanding of him that they could imagine a realistic scenario where he groomed and sexually abused young boys? I'm sure there's plenty of fan fiction out there for people to drool over.
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:50 AM   #1046
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Originally Posted by p0lka View Post
How could anyone even possibly justify that?

But MJ gets a pass.
1. We're friends.

2. As a major public figure, I have layers of security throughout my residence.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:46 AM   #1047
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
I guess someone had a good enough understanding of him that they could imagine a realistic scenario where he groomed and sexually abused young boys? I'm sure there's plenty of fan fiction out there for people to drool over.
No, what happened was that a shady character with clear links to NAMBLA wrote his own fantasy version of Jackson's relationship with Jordan Chandler, framing it as a "love story" (as you would expect a NAMBLA fellow traveller to do). Chandler himself said it was a complete fantasy, while Jackson brought a successful defamation suit against the author. Subsequently some accusers described activity or situations that appeared in the book, which they had not described before the book appeared.
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Old 15th March 2019, 08:59 AM   #1048
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, what happened was that a shady character with clear links to NAMBLA wrote his own fantasy version of Jackson's relationship with Jordan Chandler, framing it as a "love story" (as you would expect a NAMBLA fellow traveller to do). Chandler himself said it was a complete fantasy, while Jackson brought a successful defamation suit against the author. Subsequently some accusers described activity or situations that appeared in the book, which they had not described before the book appeared.
Now you've mentioned it I remember some of that. Was there a wedding scene in that book, too?
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Old 15th March 2019, 09:20 AM   #1049
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A quick Google -maybe I'll look more later- seems to show the wedding in the book was for June's brother, and was intended to set the scene for MJ and Jordy Chandler to be together.

In the book, MJ broke a couple of lamps in a rage because June left Lily (the little sister) with the two of them, so they wouldn't have any privacy. I think there was -much later?- an incident in RL when MJ broke a couple of lamps, and it led to some serious questions.

Again, real information is becoming harder and harder to find, and I'm starting to feel like everything printed about it is tainted by the sheer amount of BS flying around.
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Old 15th March 2019, 09:39 AM   #1050
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Subsequently some accusers described activity or situations that appeared in the book, which they had not described before the book appeared.
It's perfectly plausible that some of the allegations were false. That of course does nothing to explain away MJ acting just like a pedophile grooming young boys would. Or is that somehow being disputed?
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Old 15th March 2019, 10:53 AM   #1051
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
No, what happened was that a shady character with clear links to NAMBLA wrote his own fantasy version of Jackson's relationship with Jordan Chandler, framing it as a "love story" (as you would expect a NAMBLA fellow traveller to do). Chandler himself said it was a complete fantasy, while Jackson brought a successful defamation suit against the author. Subsequently some accusers described activity or situations that appeared in the book, which they had not described before the book appeared.
Are you contending that any accuser told a different story before the book, and then changed their allegations to match the book after it came out? Which accusers, exactly? (There are only six, as of now; identification should be simple enough.)

If that's not what you're contending then the book doesn't matter. If the book describes typical grooming and molestation behaviors then it's practically impossible for any molestation allegation to not have similarities. If aspects of the book's fantasizing were inspired by Jackson's well-known and public sappy gushing toward people in general and particularly to his special friends, it is also practically impossible for any molestation allegations not to have similarities because it's absurd to think Jackson's demeanor was somehow more reserved and less romantic in private.
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Old 15th March 2019, 11:25 AM   #1052
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Now you've mentioned it I remember some of that. Was there a wedding scene in that book, too?
Yes, there was. And it does sound like Safechuck's allegations were sourced from Gutierrez's book.

Did you have a chance to read the link you posted earlier in the thread? It's a more detailed version of the video with embedded links to yet other facets of the earlier allegations. It's lengthy, but definitely worth a read when you're up to it.

I watched the show last week and went searching for info as I was watching the 2nd half. I didn't find the guys as convincing as others have. I admit to being somewhat jaded to stories like this and I do try to make a conscious effort to not be too quick to dismiss victim claimants.

LN spoilers:

Among the things that bothered me from the get-go:

1] These (alleged) events were taking place well before the 2 public accusations that made international news, in 1993 and 2005. I didn't remember either of those accusers alleging anything so graphic. This didn't mean much at first -- I knew of the allegations at the time, but barely paid attention to them. A cursory search suggests that this was actually the case; neither of the original accusers claimed to experience anything like this.

So, with that timeline, Jackson was raping boys earlier on and then calmed down a bit, and settled for fondling and less intrusive acts.

It doesn't prove anything, exactly, but it doesn't make sense to me that he would de-escalate as time goes on. I'm not an expert, but my understanding that abusers escalate and become more brazen as time goes on, not less.

2] In the midst of these graphic abuse claims, it seemed odd to me that they brought up these otherwise ordinary complaints: they were upset that Jackson didn't help them more (or something?) with their careers and schooling.

The Safechucks acknowledge that they went years with little-to-no face to face contact with Jackson, and no contact at all besides occasional and infrquent letters, faxes or phone calls. (They seemed upset about this) But Safechuck blames him for his parents' decision to pull him out of advanced classes in high school, and says it was Jackson's fault that Safechuck dropped out of film school. I understand how upset he might be if Jackson told him "nah, you don't need film school; just do (whatever) and you'll break into the industry", and he followed that advice and regretted it. But as unfortunate as that is, I have a hard time seeing that as Jackson's responsibility or his fault. As for the parents pulling him out of his advanced classes in high school, again, that falls on the parents, not Jackson (assuming he actually suggested that to begin with)

The Robsons spent a fair amount of time talking about something Jackson to said to Wade on one of their earlier meetings, that Wade would be a huge director, "bigger than Spielberg". This came up at least 2, 3 times in the show. First Joy Robson (Wade's mother), and later both Wade and his wife Amanda. They actually referred to it, several times, as a "prophecy". Wade seemed legitimately angry about this "failed prophecy". He also claimed that Jackson "told him to always work hard" (might not be an exact quote, but very close) and that that is why he can't enjoy work, that Jackson instilled in him this unhealthy work ethic.

Like the Safechucks, he only had sporadic and infrequent contact with him at that point (in fact, they only had an initial long visit that spanned a few weeks, and it seemed like that was the end of it. And like Safechuck's mother, Joy Robson seemed very upset by this.) So, I don't quite buy it that Jackson had that much negative influence over his adult career. In fact, there's a video clip -- possibly in the Leaving Neverland: Echoes of a Pedophilia Apologist video, with Joy Robson bragging that she (not Jackson) relentlessly pushed her kids to perform. She says, happily, "every birthday party was backstage, every Christmas party - backstage. No regrets".

Again, the reason this seemed odd to me was because of the context: interjected into this show, filled with explicit descriptions of sexual abuse, these mundane grievances just seemed weirdly out of place.

"He staged a mock wedding... and he also gave me bad career advice!"

"He raped me... and he also promised a huge directing career that never materialized!"

And the final cherry on the cake with those segments was Robson's brother, saying that his (the brother's) wife had some "foreshadowing" of Wade's abuse: it had come to her in a dream that Wade had been abused by Jackson. When they were all together a few days later, she casually mentioned this. Robson said his usual response would have been to make a joke, but this time, it was like fate: Wade had just disclosed the abuse to a therapist, for the first time, and he couldn't joke about it. His brother noticed the change in Wade's demeanor, and he confessed to (some of) his family for the first time.

The whole thing doesn't quite add up, for me. It makes me suspect that the real reason Robson/Safechuck are at least somewhat convincing is because they DO have a lot of bitterness at Jackson for these (irrational) failed expectations. They seem to feel he owed them something career-wise, and failed to follow through.

3] The Robson's treatment of their father/husband was truly awful. He had been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, and he desperately wanted them to stay, but Joy still packed up her two youngest (Wade and his sister Chantal) and headed to the USA, leaving her husband and oldest son in the dust. I probably need to watch the show again to refresh my memory, but I seem to recall Shane, the oldest son, visiting relatively frequently. The father, less so.

There is a chilling segment in which Wade and Chantal discuss the last few visits / the last times they saw their father. Wade admits flat out that he wanted little to do with the guy and had no patience for him. Chantal tries to make it seem normal and less terrible, but her explanation: "mom wanted us to spend time with dad, and Wade didn't see why he should have to do that" really didn't help. Their mentally ill father had little to no love or affection from his own family. By their own accounts, his mental illness was an annoyance and a burden to Wade. When the oldest son left for the US (on a "visit" of indeterminate length), the father committed suicide. Wade barely grieved.

Not included, but related to LN: Wade, in his 2016 deposition, tries to blame Jackson for his father's death, stating that his father "might have been worried that he (Wade) was being abused by Jackson. I'd say there's roughly zero chance that his suicide had anything to with Jackson, and every chance that it was because he had mental illness with a high mortality rate and a family that abandoned him.

Leaving Neverland specifically set out to show these guys in a sympathetic light, and Robson still came off as a self-absorbed monster.

There were other things, too, but these are the main points that stood out to me.

Dragon Lady already posted it, but for the sake of convenience: A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland
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Old 15th March 2019, 12:45 PM   #1053
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Quote:
Did you have a chance to read the link you posted earlier in the thread? It's a more detailed version of the video with embedded links to yet other facets of the earlier allegations. It's lengthy, but definitely worth a read when you're up to it.
I'm really busy with a bunch of things right now, and they have me distracted, too. I read a LOT about the first cases when they happened, and discussed it a lot over the years, but now there's been so much time & distance I don't remember much -even the important stuff is confusing now.


I do hope to take some time and revisit the whole thing; because I do think the truth is important.

If Jackson did hurt boys, we need to learn from his methods so it doesn't happen again. If he didn't, we need to learn from these cases so no one else is destroyed by false allegations.
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Old 15th March 2019, 12:47 PM   #1054
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Jackson wasn't destroyed by the false allegations. He overcame them and died the most beloved pop icon in American history, if not world history.
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Old 15th March 2019, 12:51 PM   #1055
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Jackson wasn't destroyed by the false allegations. He overcame them and died the most beloved pop icon in American history, if not world history.
Did he know that?
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Old 15th March 2019, 01:14 PM   #1056
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
If Jackson did hurt boys, we need to learn from his methods so it doesn't happen again.
There's nothing to learn. As I've continued to stress: his methods, as described by the alleged victims and their family, sound like a textbook example of sexual grooming of children. Michael Jackson himself couldn't come up with a credible excuse for this when he was interviewed yet for some strange reason he gets a pass. If anything we need to learn from the people who willfully ignore and come up with incredibly unlikely excuses for his behavior.

That's the elephant in the room the MJ apologists seem to be intent on ignoring.

Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
Yes, there was. And it does sound like Safechuck's allegations were sourced from Gutierrez's book.
If that's the case then obviously MJ's estate would've pointed this out. They would've made that case to the director of the documentary long before its release, as the were aware of it being made. Have they done that?
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Old 15th March 2019, 01:26 PM   #1057
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
Did he know that?
Beyond a doubt. Jackson was inundated by legions of adoring fans wherever he went, including during the actual trial as he shuttled to and from the courthouse each day. Compilation albums he released contemporary with and subsequent to his trial were consistent top sellers, and the 50-date concert series he was preparing for at the time of his death completely sold out - for all dates - within four hours of the tickets becoming available to the public. Sites selling the tickets crashed under the demand. He knew.
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:06 PM   #1058
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
Dismember: And it does sound like Safechuck's allegations were sourced from Gutierrez's book.

If that's the case then obviously MJ's estate would've pointed this out. They would've made that case to the director of the documentary long before its release, as the were aware of it being made. Have they done that?
They say it took them by surprise, but apparently they did reach out and try to talk to HBO and Channel 4. The letters they sent are linked in the quote, and I'll post excerpts of those below as well:

(source)

Quote:
The blatant disregard for a fair and balanced representation of the case did not end with Reed. Jackson’s Estate reached out to HBO and Channel 4 in letters (the two channels which commissioned the film), detailing credibility issues with these accusers which came out during their litigation in court. There was no attempt at fairness and balance by either channel. They refused to even meet with the Estate’s representatives to discuss the matter and none of them offered the Estate or the Jackson family an opportunity to tell their side of the story.

In actuality, the documentary took both Jackson’s Estate and his family by surprise. There are just about one and a half months between its surprise announcement and last minute addition to the program of the Sundance film festival and its airing on HBO and Channel 4 in the first week of March and it was very quickly distributed to other channels all around the world as well. When Michael Jackson’s nephew, Taj Jackson requested that the family could watch it before it airs, he was declined. On the other hand, influencers, social media "blue ticks" and the press were given special early screenings all around the world.

It seemed the short notice and very aggressive media blitz was planned this way deliberately, so that the Estate and the family would not have time to put together a response in the form of a rebuttal documentary or other similar means.

This raises some serious ethical questions regarding this film and the concentrated media campaign surrounding it.

In a Vanity Fair interview Reed cynically said about criticism of his one-sided approach: "What is the other side of the story? That Michael Jackson was a great entertainer and a great guy?" [1]

No, that is not the other side of the story. The other side of the story is, that Jackson’s Estate has been in a long time litigation with these two men and during that litigation information about them came out that, if represented in the film, would have put these allegations into a different perspective for the audience.

Excerpts of the letters from Howard Weitzman, one of the lawyers representing the Estate, to HBO:
Quote:
[. . .]Notably, in the "documentary," Robson now recounts "his" supposed "memories" of these events in great detail. But Mr. Reed and Robson never explain that he had to first ask his mother scores of questions before he could tell his story. Indeed, despite telling the story of his first night at Neverland in the documentary as if it is his own memory, at his deposition, he admitted that he "did not know" if his memory of that night "came from [his] own recollection or [if] it was told to [Robson] by someone else." Simply put, Robson is an admitted perjurer who proudly called himself (in his draft book) a "master of deception."

Robson is such a good liar that his own mother testified under oath at her deposition that she could not tell when he was lying; she even volunteered that "he should have had an Oscar" given how convincing his lies were. It may just be that he deserves an Oscar for HBO’s "documentary" as well. [. . .]

Excerpts of the letter to Channel 4:
Quote:
[...] Leaving Neverland rehashes accusations against the late Michael Jackson of committing the most heinous crimes any person can be accused of in modern society. The subjects of the "documentary"—James Safechuck and Wade Robson—are admitted perjurers. They spent years litigating their false claims against the Estate, and filed four different lawsuits against it, all of which were dismissed with prejudice.

Today, they are appealing the adverse judgments against them. This documentary appears to be part of their litigation strategy. In the underlying litigations in the trial court, the Estate discovered troves of information about Robson and Safechuck that made it unequivocally clear that they had no credibility whatsoever. And contrary to the claims of Dan Reed and others that the trial court never assessed these men’s credibility in those lawsuits, the trial court effectively found, among other things, that no rational person could believe that Robson was telling the truth about various issues(as discussed in the enclosed letter to Richard Plepler of HBO at page 5). [...]

As referenced above, we wrote a detailed letter to HBO last week setting out many of the problems with this so-called "documentary" and the utter lack of credibility of Safechuck and Robson. The point of this letter is not to repeat ourselves so we are enclosing a copy of that letter and commend you to it. (Everything said about HBO in that letter is equally applicable to Channel 4.) Rather, the point of this letter is to make a different inquiry. Channel 4’s "Factual Programme Guidelines"1 provide as follows: "If a programme makes significant allegations against an individual or organisation, those concerned should be given an appropriate and timely opportunity to respond." I think we can all agree that the false allegations being made in your "documentary" are "significant allegations." Indeed, as noted above, it is hard to imagine more significant accusations that can possibly be made against anyone. Yet, contrary to your "Factual Programme Guidelines"—not to mention all norms of journalism and documentary filmmaking along with good old-fashioned ethics—neither Dan Reed nor anyone else associated with this "documentary" ever contacted anyone to respond to the frivolous allegations made by Safechuck and Robson in your "documentary." [. . .]
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:34 PM   #1059
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Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
They say it took them by surprise, but apparently they did reach out and try to talk to HBO and Channel 4. The letters they sent are linked in the quote, and I'll post excerpts of those below as well:
But they didn't mention anything about "Safechuck's allegations being sourced from Gutierrez's book"? Why would they not mention that if it was something so obvious yet undermined all of their allegations?
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Old 15th March 2019, 02:42 PM   #1060
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:05 PM   #1061
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Jackson wasn't destroyed by the false allegations. He overcame them and died the most beloved pop icon in American history, if not world history.
His family members claim the complete polar opposite. They claim he was emotionally devestated by them. They blame fallout from the allegations and trials for the drug use that eventually lead to MJ's death.

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Old 15th March 2019, 03:24 PM   #1062
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
But they didn't mention anything about "Safechuck's allegations being sourced from Gutierrez's book"? Why would they not mention that if it was something so obvious yet undermined all of their allegations?
That’s in the first link.

I didn’t see the lawyers specifically mention the book, but they repeatedly call the allegations false and in the letter to HBO they offer to send depositions and statements upon request.

If you read the first link, scroll down toward the middle of the page. I don’t think it’s very far down but I can’t recall exactly what section it’s in and can’t check at the moment. There’s a significant amount of detail and context on that page and throughout different sections of the website.
Edit: On the A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland link (“source”, linked in previous post), click the “Claim 2” link. The Gutierrez info is in that section.
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Old 15th March 2019, 03:53 PM   #1063
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
But they didn't mention anything about "Safechuck's allegations being sourced from Gutierrez's book"? Why would they not mention that if it was something so obvious yet undermined all of their allegations?
I’m sorry, I’m distracted at the moment and I should have given a more relevant answer to the highlighted part.

The lawyers wouldn’t have mentioned the book because the allegations made in their original statements and depositions didn’t include those things.

They (Robson and Safechuck) made new allegations (or added more explicit details) in the show that weren’t in the original claims. Neither the Estate nor anyone in the family were given a chance for an advance screening so they couldn’t comment on those new additions.

Gutierrez is mentioned in A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland, which was written after LN aired publicly on HBO and someone (I don’t know who’s behind the page) was able to address the claims made specifically in the show.
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Old 15th March 2019, 04:32 PM   #1064
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Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
I’m sorry, I’m distracted at the moment and I should have given a more relevant answer to the highlighted part.

The lawyers wouldn’t have mentioned the book because the allegations made in their original statements and depositions didn’t include those things.

They (Robson and Safechuck) made new allegations (or added more explicit details) in the show that weren’t in the original claims. Neither the Estate nor anyone in the family were given a chance for an advance screening so they couldn’t comment on those new additions.

Gutierrez is mentioned in A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland, which was written after LN aired publicly on HBO and someone (I don’t know who’s behind the page) was able to address the claims made specifically in the show.
Gutierrez is problematic. The rest is pretty thin gruel.

How about this little chestnut?

https://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/1994/01/orth199401

from 1994 before Gutierrez's book? Seems like the same seduction technique to me.

btw. Safechuck and Robson are mentioned. I think this is Wade Robson's dad:

Quote:
...One anguished father who had spent considerable time at Neverland called me in despair over the fact that he had ever allowed Jackson to share a bed with his son. He has no proof that anything untoward occurred, but he claims that he himself was molested by an uncle and kept the secret from his parents for 30 years. That knowledge tortures him, because he and his wife are divorced, and he lives so far away that he is rarely able to see his son...
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Old 15th March 2019, 06:02 PM   #1065
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Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
That’s in the first link.

I didn’t see the lawyers specifically mention the book, but they repeatedly call the allegations false and in the letter to HBO they offer to send depositions and statements upon request.
So the lawyers and spokespersons working on behalf of MJ's estate don't bother to substantiate their claim that the allegations are false by demonstrating that they are based on a book of fiction? It just seems incredibly stupid that they don't make a huge deal about this if it's so damaging to the credibility of his victims as you people seem to suggest.

It doesn't add up.
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Old 15th March 2019, 11:25 PM   #1066
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
So the lawyers and spokespersons working on behalf of MJ's estate don't bother to substantiate their claim that the allegations are false by demonstrating that they are based on a book of fiction? It just seems incredibly stupid that they don't make a huge deal about this if it's so damaging to the credibility of his victims as you people seem to suggest.

It doesn't add up.
It's like the movie Argo. it's a load of ******** but no one wants to know the truth, they want the "Rah, Rah, U.S.A." myth.
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Old 16th March 2019, 07:25 AM   #1067
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
So the lawyers and spokespersons working on behalf of MJ's estate don't bother to substantiate their claim that the allegations are false by demonstrating that they are based on a book of fiction? It just seems incredibly stupid that they don't make a huge deal about this if it's so damaging to the credibility of his victims as you people seem to suggest.

It doesn't add up.
The book undermines the new claims in the show, but no one from the family or the Estate was given a chance to see it prior to release. They couldn’t have addressed new claims in a show they hadn’t yet seen. The letters were sent prior to the release of the show, and the Estate tried to set up a meeting to go over the problems with Robson’s and Safechuck’s original claims, but it doesn’t look like they heard back from them.

Their original statements and depositions had enough problems on their own. The lawsuits were dismissed with prejudice. The problems with their original complaints are listed here. A Critical Analysis of Leaving Neverland

It’s a lengthy read but if you wish to understand why some people think these guys aren’t on the up and up (including me — I don’t trust that they’re credible) this covers most of those details.
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Old 16th March 2019, 08:13 AM   #1068
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Originally Posted by Dismember View Post
The book undermines the new claims in the show, but no one from the family or the Estate was given a chance to see it prior to release. They couldn’t have addressed new claims in a show they hadn’t yet seen.
But they have presumably seen it now, right? I'd take it for granted that they would've officially made that case if there was any veracity to it, unless of course there's just an coincidental and superficial similarity.

This habit of focusing on often trivial and petty details while refusing to offer any innocent explanation at all for MJ's apparent child grooming behavior just comes off as desperately clutching at straws. Pedophile's that are grooming children in order to sexually abuse them act like Michael Jackson did and there's no way to just hand-wave it away.
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Old 16th March 2019, 09:22 AM   #1069
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This whole Jackson thing - I just cant get past the fact that he thought there was nothing wrong with sleeping in a bed with young boys. A grown man. In bed with prepubescent boys.
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Old 16th March 2019, 09:51 AM   #1070
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Originally Posted by Arcade22 View Post
But they have presumably seen it now, right? I'd take it for granted that they would've officially made that case if there was any veracity to it, unless of course there's just an coincidental and superficial similarity.
The show has only been out for a couple weeks now, so it hasn’t been that long. My guess is that they’ll put out some kind of rebuttal but they’re taking their time rather than doing some rushed, reactionary piece. I guess we’ll have to wait until that happens to see what they have to say and if they make a strong case.
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Old 16th March 2019, 09:55 AM   #1071
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Originally Posted by philkensebben View Post
This whole Jackson thing - I just cant get past the fact that he thought there was nothing wrong with sleeping in a bed with young boys. A grown man. In bed with prepubescent boys.
I agree for most of us that is too weird for words. But I've personally known a few people who would not see the problem with it.

At one time, it was perfectly normal for every member of a huge, extended family to sleep together in one bed.

It's still not unusual to see two or three or more families living together in tiny one - or two room apartments, and while I will never be the one to ask, the imagination boggles a bit when trying to imagine what the sleeping arrangements must be.

I know -Jackson wasn't raised under those circumstances. But somewhere along the line (a book? a story told by a grandparent or other elder? a television show?) he began to believe it was a perfectly sane thing to do -sane enough he was willing to tell a reporter about it, knowing it would be broadcast 'round the world.

I'm not defending the practice; but I'm all too aware it still happens in a great many families around the world, and do not want anyone to be accused of child abuse for engaging in a perfectly legal behavior.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:02 AM   #1072
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I agree for most of us that is too weird for words. But I've personally known a few people who would not see the problem with it.

At one time, it was perfectly normal for every member of a huge, extended family to sleep together in one bed.

It's still not unusual to see two or three or more families living together in tiny one - or two room apartments, and while I will never be the one to ask, the imagination boggles a bit when trying to imagine what the sleeping arrangements must be.

I know -Jackson wasn't raised under those circumstances. But somewhere along the line (a book? a story told by a grandparent or other elder? a television show?) he began to believe it was a perfectly sane thing to do -sane enough he was willing to tell a reporter about it, knowing it would be broadcast 'round the world.

I'm not defending the practice; but I'm all too aware it still happens in a great many families around the world, and do not want anyone to be accused of child abuse for engaging in a perfectly legal behavior.
Families co sleeping is completely different from men sleeping with random boys.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:02 AM   #1073
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I'm going to add to my post a bit, because I think this one aspect of Jackson's character is what immediately prejudices everyone against him, so after that all the evidence is jaundiced a bit.

I've known several children who did not hesitate to climb into bed with any adult handy if they became anxious or weren't used to sleeping alone. As a lot of parents co-sleep with their children, when those children are at someone else's home, they still expect to sleep with an adult.

That said, IIRC, the only time the Arvizo child(ren) was allowed to sleep in Jackson's bedroom, another man was there, too. I don't believe there were any accusations of abuse occurring that night.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:48 AM   #1074
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
That said, IIRC, the only time the Arvizo child(ren) was allowed to sleep in Jackson's bedroom, another man was there, too. I don't believe there were any accusations of abuse occurring that night.
There were six people in the room on the night in question: Jackson, his personal assistant, Gavin and his brother, and Jackson’s own two kids.

https://themichaeljacksonallegations...ated-children/

Apparently this was a common occurrence. Jackson grew up with 9 or 10 siblings sharing one room, and having been surrounded by people his whole life, he liked having people, sometimes entire families, staying in his “bedroom” which was actually a two story suite.

If I recall correctly it was Bashir’s documentary (for which, I’m pretty sure, Gutierrez was a consultant) that put this into public consciousness, that “Jackson shares a bed with small boys”. And Jackson’s own commentary didn’t do him any favors. Macauley Culkin once said in some podcast or video that Jackson “wasn’t very good at explaining himself”. That seems to be a huge understatement.

But Bashir knew there were six people in the room that night, and that information, and anything else that would offer context, was omitted from the finished film.

It’s all the details like this, that DO show things in a different light, that makes me skeptical of the claims. Jackson was really, really messed up. If they have such a strong case against him, why would they have to be so dishonest? Same with the faxes and some of the “grooming” claims which turned out to be half-truths. To me, the half truths came off as big red flags that the claims against him aren’t as solid as I originally thought. And reading detailed timelines and descriptions of both the Chandler accusation (1993) and the Arvizo accusation (2005) further confirmed that.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:51 AM   #1075
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No.

There is no way in which it is perfectly OK for a grown man who is not related to a 10-12 year old kid to have a sleep over and sleep in the same bed.

Don’t try to analogize it to parental/familial co-sleeping or the clinginess of younger kids around people the parents know and trust.

About the only way you can try and explain MJ’s behavior is that he put himself in the role of a 12 year old kid. Maybe in his mind he was just having a sleepover with a friend, like kids do. But that’s not to say a it’s ok for a delusional 50 year old to have kids over for a sleepover. It’s fundamentally wrong, even if only because it opens up that person to such allegations.


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Old 16th March 2019, 10:54 AM   #1076
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Originally Posted by philkensebben
This whole Jackson thing - I just cant get past the fact that he thought there was nothing wrong with sleeping in a bed with young boys. A grown man. In bed with prepubescent boys.
Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I've known several children who did not hesitate to climb into bed with any adult handy if they became anxious or weren't used to sleeping alone. As a lot of parents co-sleep with their children, when those children are at someone else's home, they still expect to sleep with an adult.

That said, IIRC, the only time the Arvizo child(ren) was allowed to sleep in Jackson's bedroom, another man was there, too. I don't believe there were any accusations of abuse occurring that night.
Which of these "sleeping behaviors" and claims have actually been substantiated? And in what context?

Because, for example, I watched a Macaulay Culkin clip the other day where he talks about playing video games with Jackson and other kids late into the night, and sometimes they would fall asleep in the process. This is of hugely different import, for example, than say...trying to deliberately encourage a pre-teen to join him in bed. I mean, there are clips and quotes like this where Jackson talks about giving UP his bed to a kid who had fallen asleep there...
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:54 AM   #1077
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Quote:
Apparently this was a common occurrence. Jackson grew up with 9 or 10 siblings sharing one room, and having been surrounded by people his whole life
That jives with a lot of my experiences in foster care. A lot of kids -even teenagers- have NEVER been alone for a single night; not even in their own beds. I remember a girl once -maybe 16? exclaiming kinda loudly during a meal "you mean every person here sleeps ALONE???"

It seems completely alien to me, but obviously that goes both ways.
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Old 16th March 2019, 10:58 AM   #1078
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Quote:
Because, for example, I watched a Macaulay Culkin clip where he talks about playing video games with Jackson and other kids late into the night, and sometimes they would fall asleep in the process. This is of hugely different import, for example, than say...trying to deliberately encourage a pre-teen to join him in bed. I mean, there are clips and quotes like this where Jackson talks about giving UP his bed to a kid who had fallen asleep there...
MOST of the claims regarding Jackson are of this latter variety. People on the lower floor of his room playing video games, talking and laughing together, then falling asleep. In some cases, he gave up his bed to kids, while he slept on the floor.

I don't think he ever -not once- actually claimed that he actually slept in a bed with a child. Only that he didn't think it would be a terrible thing to do.


ETA: let's not forget the one boy who claimed he was in Jackson's bed (on the upper story) didn't know there was an alarm that would chime when someone climbed the stairs.
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Old 16th March 2019, 11:55 AM   #1079
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
I don't think he ever -not once- actually claimed that he actually slept in a bed with a child. Only that he didn't think it would be a terrible thing to do.
Well..there is THIS part of the Martin Bashir interview where Jackson claims that he HAS slept in a bed with children; naming Culkin and his sister. Though it seems like more of a group situation. And Culkin to this day asserts Jackson's innocence.

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Old 16th March 2019, 11:58 AM   #1080
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
Well..there is THIS part of the Martin Bashir interview where Jackson claims that he HAS slept in a bed with children; naming Culkin and his sister. Though it seems like more a group situation. And Culkin to this day asserts Jackson's innocence.
I stand corrected.
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