"How could (one person or a small group of people) pull this off?"

Allen773

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This is a common trope of conspiracy theorists. It is especially apparent to me in the cases of the JFK assassination (which was carried out by one man) and the 9/11 attacks (which were carried out by 19 men + probably a couple dozen or so handlers in Al-Qaeda - including Osama bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - at most, quite possibly with some additional funding and assistance from certain "rogue" agents of the Saudi government and Pakistani ISI).

Basically, the theory is that such catastrophic events - whether it be the assassination of a US President or the massacre of a total of 3000 people in NYC, Arlington, VA, and Shanksville, PA via the hijacking and deliberate crashing of four domestically-operated commercial airliners - cannot be committed without the knowledge and even active assistance of the US government (and by that, they usually mean the CIA, the FBI, the so-called "Shadow Government" and/or the highest levels of certain presidential administrations e.g. the second Bush administration re: 9/11).

What these people apparently don't understand is that the US government - particularly the executive branch - is not some monolithic entity; there are many, many different departments, agencies, and other institutions (along with all of the smaller sub-departments, offices, etc. that are embedded within larger parts of the federal bureaucracy) that are all part of the US government, yet that all have their own distinct roles, regulations (from both internal and external sources), responsibilities, and objectives. Sometimes, there are many overlapping aspects to these different parts of the US government. Sometimes, there is a lot less overlap. And sometimes, you have different agencies, departments, bureaus, local offices, etc. that have vaguely defined (and thus, differentiated) rules and regulations but clearly defined objectives. Or, you may have the opposite. It really all depends, honestly. And this isn't even taking into account the fact that all of this (well, most of it - the computers are becoming more and more important in a lot of stuff ;) ) is done by human beings. You know, the same species as the assassins, terrorists, criminals, and other bad guys. Fancy that!

The main point of this thread, however, is that even if we assumed - for the sake of argument - that there was some hypothetical world where the US government was uniformally competent, efficient, and united in both its mission and its methods of carrying said mission out (and furthermore, had the ability to coordinate all of its operations), it still wouldn't have a perfect record in preventing the assassinations of high-profile government officials or deadly terrorist attacks on the homeland (let alone, overseas). And there's a very simple reason why, so simple and "common-sense" to the point of being a worn-out cliche that I am honestly surprised that CT'ers - who, of course, pride themselves on dissenting from expert opinion or mainstream explanations of seminal events in general via their "common sense" and their layman's incredulity - have yet to acknowledge it:

needle in a haystack ‎(uncountable)

(idiomatic) Something that is difficult or impossible to locate; something impossibly complex or intractable.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/needle_in_a_haystack

It's hard enough to find the one needle, or two, or three, or 19 needles that you absolutely need to (yet at the same time, you don't even know what - or rather, who - they are) in a haystack of 7 billion needles. Harder still to predict exactly what that needle (or needles) will do, when it/they will do it, where it/they will do it, and how it/they will do it (not to mention, the few other needles in that haystack of 7 billion needles that could potentially lead you to the ones that you need to find).

Oh, and I forgot to add; you are supposed to do all of this with finite resources, under often-stifling rules and regulations, among thousands of competing professional (and personal) agendas (and their associated egos), on what can only be described as borrowed time. Oops, the real world isn't a utopia. Darn!
 
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You are essentially right . Those that are frightened that facts will upset their pre set world perspectives will produce any garbage to avoid facing the things that are so infuriating --- facts . Information on a need to know basis has been at the core of matters for thousands of years . It has now become a remarkable Art form ( False Flags are a gem ) in recent times , particularly with the help of sciences like deception , misinformation and disinformation . Separately I believe your summary explanation of the two incidents you example is over simple and itself a very poor representation of what occurred . But , regardless , I do believe that the notion that no group could have successfully / secretly carried out either operation is just plain silly.
 
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You are essentially right . Those that are frightened that facts will upset their pre set world perspectives will produce any garbage to avoid facing the things that are so infuriating --- facts . Information on a need to know basis has been at the core of matters for thousands of years . It has now become a remarkable Art form ( False Flags are a gem ) in recent times , particularly with the help of sciences like deception , misinformation and disinformation . Separately I believe your summary explanation of the two incidents you example is over simple and itself a very poor representation of what occurred . But , regardless , I do believe that the notion that no group could have successfully / secretly carried out either operation is just plain silly.

Spectacular missing of the point.
 
As someone going into computer forensics: computers give you data, humans give you context.
 
You are essentially right . Those that are frightened that facts will upset their pre set world perspectives will produce any garbage to avoid facing the things that are so infuriating --- facts . Information on a need to know basis has been at the core of matters for thousands of years . It has now become a remarkable Art form ( False Flags are a gem ) in recent times , particularly with the help of sciences like deception , misinformation and disinformation . Separately I believe your summary explanation of the two incidents you example is over simple and itself a very poor representation of what occurred . But , regardless , I do believe that the notion that no group could have successfully / secretly carried out either operation is just plain silly.

Can you produce evidence that (we'll pick one example from the OP) that the US Government was directly involved in the 9/11 attacks?
 
Give me an AR-15 and 400 rounds and a soft target and I can make the history books. Give me 50lbs of C-4, or leave the pilot house of an ocean liner unguarded, or leave a security gate unlocked, and I can ruin your day.

All it takes is a little homework and a lot of will.

And I'm a nice guy, imagine what a not-nice person can do (assuming you never read the news papers). :thumbsup:
 
Give me an AR-15 and 400 rounds and a soft target and I can make the history books. Give me 50lbs of C-4, or leave the pilot house of an ocean liner unguarded, or leave a security gate unlocked, and I can ruin your day.

All it takes is a little homework and a lot of will.

And I'm a nice guy, imagine what a not-nice person can do (assuming you never read the news papers). :thumbsup:

Give me 20 guys and the 9/11 pre mission budget and I could shut the entire nation down in a week and bring it too a grinding halt for months. Patriarchalists attacked big-dick symbolic targets that leave 99% of Americans out of the target. About two weeks after 9/11 housewives all across small town America started to appreciate living so far from the big city excitement of Manhattan.
 
Best local scenario (Dallas) would be to flip a tanker of anhydrous ammonia on the Woodall-Rogers elevated roadway around noon some workday. All it needs is one person willing to ignore the hazardous material routing signs.

One THINKING person can do an incredible amount of damage with little material.

JFK assassination couldn't be done by one person? Hell, I've been to Dealey Plaza many times -- last weekend, for example -- and scoff at the claims of "an impossible shot." It's less than 150 yards, the limo going downhill at maybe, what, 15 miles per hour in a straight line, from an elevated shooting perch. In other words, shooting DOWN at a target going DOWN. It's not much more difficult than shooting at a paper target on a backstop from a shooting bench. Easy shot. It took three tries because of nerves.

Beanbag
 
Give me 20 guys and the 9/11 pre mission budget and I could shut the entire nation down in a week and bring it too a grinding halt for months. Patriarchalists attacked big-dick symbolic targets that leave 99% of Americans out of the target. About two weeks after 9/11 housewives all across small town America started to appreciate living so far from the big city excitement of Manhattan.
So, what are you doing this weekend?

:rolleyes:

Beanbag
 
You are essentially right . Those that are frightened that facts will upset their pre set world perspectives will produce any garbage to avoid facing the things that are so infuriating --- facts . Information on a need to know basis has been at the core of matters for thousands of years . It has now become a remarkable Art form ( False Flags are a gem ) in recent times , particularly with the help of sciences like deception , misinformation and disinformation . Separately I believe your summary explanation of the two incidents you example is over simple and itself a very poor representation of what occurred . But , regardless , I do believe that the notion that no group could have successfully / secretly carried out either operation is just plain silly.

Wow. O_o
 
The main point of this thread, however, is that even if we assumed - for the sake of argument - that there was some hypothetical world where the US government was uniformally competent, efficient, and united in both its mission and its methods of carrying said mission out (and furthermore, had the ability to coordinate all of its operations), it still wouldn't have a perfect record in preventing the assassinations of high-profile government officials or deadly terrorist attacks on the homeland (let alone, overseas). And there's a very simple reason why, so simple and "common-sense" to the point of being a worn-out cliche that I am honestly surprised that CT'ers - who, of course, pride themselves on dissenting from expert opinion or mainstream explanations of seminal events in general via their "common sense" and their layman's incredulity - have yet to acknowledge it:

Why not look at actual historical records of actual conspiracies, where some of the perpetrators were tried and convicted? That seems like a much better method for understanding these things than to simply imagine some hypotheticals.

Iran/Contra is a good example. Excellent in fact, because a lot is known about it. And those guys were all pardoned and went on to participate in multiple coups all over the world. You do know that this was real, don't you?

It falsifies your entire thesis.
 
Why not look at actual historical records of actual conspiracies, where some of the perpetrators were tried and convicted? That seems like a much better method for understanding these things than to simply imagine some hypotheticals.

Iran/Contra is a good example. Excellent in fact, because a lot is known about it. And those guys were all pardoned and went on to participate in multiple coups all over the world. You do know that this was real, don't you?

It falsifies your entire thesis.

You seem to be answering a different post to the one you've quoted. Iran/Contra says nothing about the ability of small groups or individuals to carry out attacks despite the presence of security services tasked with preventing those attacks, and so has no relevance whatsoever to the thesis you seem to think it falsifies. The answer you've given is the one you're supposed to give when someone suggests that some suggested conspiracy is too large and complex to be a sensible idea, not the one you're supposed to give when someone suggests that a pathetic nobody like Oswald could quite conceivably have killed someone as important as JFK or a group of hijackers could have escaped interception by NORAD on 9/11. Are you reading out of the wrong page of the conspiracists' handbook?

Dave
 
Why not look at actual historical records of actual conspiracies, where some of the perpetrators were tried and convicted? That seems like a much better method for understanding these things than to simply imagine some hypotheticals.

Iran/Contra is a good example. Excellent in fact, because a lot is known about it. And those guys were all pardoned and went on to participate in multiple coups all over the world. You do know that this was real, don't you?

It falsifies your entire thesis.

Actually, Iran-contra does not falsify the thesis. Iran-Contra came to light because of the actions of the US government and their Iranian conspirators. The thesis was that "small groups CAN pull off events with a large impact - the involvement of government to do so is not required."
 
Many CT's are based on the infallibility of gov.org/corporate/MIC conspiracy/conspirators, but here's a real world example of how such things play out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Rheault

"Robert Bradley Rheault /roʊ/ (October 31, 1925 – October 16, 2013) was an American colonel in the U.S. Army Special Forces who served as commander of the First Special Forces Group in Okinawa, and the Fifth Special Forces Group in Vietnam from May to July 1969. Rheault was best known for his role as a co-conspirator and commander of the unit responsible for the 20 June 1969 execution of South Vietnam double agent, Thai Khac Chuyen, who compromised intelligence agents involved in Project GAMMA operating in Vietnam and Cambodia.[1]"

IRL, the commanding officer of the 5th Special Forces Group couldn't get away clean on a killing a single individual in the middle of a war.
 
Many CT's are based on the infallibility of gov.org/corporate/MIC conspiracy/conspirators, but here's a real world example of how such things play out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Rheault

"Robert Bradley Rheault /roʊ/ (October 31, 1925 – October 16, 2013) was an American colonel in the U.S. Army Special Forces who served as commander of the First Special Forces Group in Okinawa, and the Fifth Special Forces Group in Vietnam from May to July 1969. Rheault was best known for his role as a co-conspirator and commander of the unit responsible for the 20 June 1969 execution of South Vietnam double agent, Thai Khac Chuyen, who compromised intelligence agents involved in Project GAMMA operating in Vietnam and Cambodia.[1]"

IRL, the commanding officer of the 5th Special Forces Group couldn't get away clean on a killing a single individual in the middle of a war.

Why not bring up the Chicago plot, BStrong?
 
Many CT's are based on the infallibility of gov.org/corporate/MIC conspiracy/conspirators, but here's a real world example of how such things play out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_B._Rheault

"Robert Bradley Rheault /roʊ/ (October 31, 1925 – October 16, 2013) was an American colonel in the U.S. Army Special Forces who served as commander of the First Special Forces Group in Okinawa, and the Fifth Special Forces Group in Vietnam from May to July 1969. Rheault was best known for his role as a co-conspirator and commander of the unit responsible for the 20 June 1969 execution of South Vietnam double agent, Thai Khac Chuyen, who compromised intelligence agents involved in Project GAMMA operating in Vietnam and Cambodia.[1]"

IRL, the commanding officer of the 5th Special Forces Group couldn't get away clean on a killing a single individual in the middle of a war.

Another example is Pat Tillman (albeit smaller). Watergate is an excellent example.
 
You'd think that MK Ultra would be an example in the conspiricist favor, however the fact that MK Ultra actually backfired and helped set up the counter-culture and therefore the anti-war effort, via Ken Kesey and Robert Hunter, strikes against that.
 
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This is a common trope of conspiracy theorists. It is especially apparent to me in the cases of the JFK assassination (which was carried out by one man) and the 9/11 attacks (which were carried out by 19 men + probably a couple dozen or so handlers in Al-Qaeda - including Osama bin Laden and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed - at most, quite possibly with some additional funding and assistance from certain "rogue" agents of the Saudi government and Pakistani ISI).

Basically, the theory is that such catastrophic events - whether it be the assassination of a US President or the massacre of a total of 3000 people in NYC, Arlington, VA, and Shanksville, PA via the hijacking and deliberate crashing of four domestically-operated commercial airliners - cannot be committed without the knowledge and even active assistance of the US government (and by that, they usually mean the CIA, the FBI, the so-called "Shadow Government" and/or the highest levels of certain presidential administrations e.g. the second Bush administration re: 9/11).

What these people apparently don't understand is that the US government - particularly the executive branch - is not some monolithic entity; there are many, many different departments, agencies, and other institutions (along with all of the smaller sub-departments, offices, etc. that are embedded within larger parts of the federal bureaucracy) that are all part of the US government, yet that all have their own distinct roles, regulations (from both internal and external sources), responsibilities, and objectives. Sometimes, there are many overlapping aspects to these different parts of the US government. Sometimes, there is a lot less overlap. And sometimes, you have different agencies, departments, bureaus, local offices, etc. that have vaguely defined (and thus, differentiated) rules and regulations but clearly defined objectives. Or, you may have the opposite. It really all depends, honestly. And this isn't even taking into account the fact that all of this (well, most of it - the computers are becoming more and more important in a lot of stuff ;) ) is done by human beings. You know, the same species as the assassins, terrorists, criminals, and other bad guys. Fancy that!

The main point of this thread, however, is that even if we assumed - for the sake of argument - that there was some hypothetical world where the US government was uniformally competent, efficient, and united in both its mission and its methods of carrying said mission out (and furthermore, had the ability to coordinate all of its operations), it still wouldn't have a perfect record in preventing the assassinations of high-profile government officials or deadly terrorist attacks on the homeland (let alone, overseas). And there's a very simple reason why, so simple and "common-sense" to the point of being a worn-out cliche that I am honestly surprised that CT'ers - who, of course, pride themselves on dissenting from expert opinion or mainstream explanations of seminal events in general via their "common sense" and their layman's incredulity - have yet to acknowledge it:



https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/needle_in_a_haystack

It's hard enough to find the one needle, or two, or three, or 19 needles that you absolutely need to (yet at the same time, you don't even know what - or rather, who - they are) in a haystack of 7 billion needles. Harder still to predict exactly what that needle (or needles) will do, when it/they will do it, where it/they will do it, and how it/they will do it (not to mention, the few other needles in that haystack of 7 billion needles that could potentially lead you to the ones that you need to find).

Oh, and I forgot to add; you are supposed to do all of this with finite resources, under often-stifling rules and regulations, among thousands of competing professional (and personal) agendas (and their associated egos), on what can only be described as borrowed time. Oops, the real world isn't a utopia. Darn!

There was Saudi involvement in 9/11. Like, the kind of involvement Conspiracy Theorists say could happen in America. Hopefully the white supremacist involvement in the Oklahoma City Bombing will be acknowledged one day, however you can be very sure that the true facts of that case will be slowly tricked down intentionally to not upset people. Is it feasible that something like the Oklahoma City Bombing could be done by Timothy Mcveigh and Terry Nichols, but that simply did not happen. I've been gathering information to fill my own wikia, and the more information I see on this the more undeniable the connection is. Just look at the page for Richard Wayne Snell and try to play your mental gymnastics. "Oh, maybe he was speaking in metaphor when Snell said that there would be a bombing on the day of his execution". Sorry, sometimes crimes involve more than one person.
 
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There was Saudi involvement in 9/11. Like, the kind of involvement Conspiracy Theorists say could happen in America. Hopefully the white supremacist involvement in the Oklahoma City Bombing will be acknowledged one day, however you can be very sure that the true facts of that case will be slowly tricked down intentionally to not upset people. Is it feasible that something like the Oklahoma City Bombing could be done by Timothy Mcveigh and Terry Nichols, but that simply did not happen. I've been gathering information to fill my own wikia, and the more information I see on this the more undeniable the connection is. Just look at the page for Richard Wayne Snell and try to play your mental gymnastics. "Oh, maybe he was speaking in metaphor when Snell said that there would be a bombing on the day of his execution". Sorry, sometimes crimes involve more than one person.

The Saudi involvement was by no means a unified conspiracy, did not appear to reach to the top except post hoc, and was pretty poorly concealed. I recommend you find a better example, perhaps Gladio or some such. And if you have something to show beyond McVeigh and Nichols, please start a thread and let's have out. If the evidence is as nebulous as you have presented elsewhere, I don't hold out much hope for its validity though.
 
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The Saudi involvement was by no means a unified conspiracy, did not appear to reach to the top except post hoc, and was pretty poorly concealed. I recommend you find a better example, perhaps Gladio or some such. And if you have something to show beyond McVeigh and Nichols, please start a thread and let's have out. If the evidence is as nebulous as you have presented elsewhere, I don't hold out much hope for its validity though.

"Unified conspiracy"? What? Sure, move the goalposts.

About Mcveigh and Nichols, I am waiting to compile more information on the wikia so I can make sure I know the sources for everything. I already referred to my page on Richard Wayne Snell. It's not finished, but what do you think of it so far? http://okbomb.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Wayne_Snell
 
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Wait....believing the fox's explanation for what happened in the hen house is kinda


:wackygoofy:

:bunpan:bunpan:bunpan

.
 
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Hopefully the white supremacist involvement in the Oklahoma City Bombing will be acknowledged one day, however you can be very sure that the true facts of that case will be slowly tricked down intentionally to not upset people.

I will admit to not knowing a huge amount about the Oklahoma bombings, but from what I have seen, the idea that there were more people involved than were brought to trial is plausible.
What I don't get, though, is who would be upset by knowing that white supremacists were involved? I'm sure the supremacists themselves would be quite happy to admit their part in fighting for what they believe in, and I really can't see anyone else tiptoeing around the sensibilities of these racist hillbillies. Given the current level of distrust in America's law enforcement agencies, I can't see how showing the initial investigation was flawed would make much difference either.
Is this just paranoid fantasy, MicahJava, or do you have some substance to this idea?
 
Spectacular missing of the point.

Staggeringly so!

JFK assassination couldn't be done by one person? Hell, I've been to Dealey Plaza many times -- last weekend, for example -- and scoff at the claims of "an impossible shot." It's less than 150 yards, the limo going downhill at maybe, what, 15 miles per hour in a straight line, from an elevated shooting perch. In other words, shooting DOWN at a target going DOWN. It's not much more difficult than shooting at a paper target on a backstop from a shooting bench. Easy shot. It took three tries because of nerves.

The TSBD was just about the ideal sniper's nest, though I would probably have chosen a lower floor (second or third if possible) to reduce the vertical tracking component and to shorten my escape route/time.

Those who claim the shots were taken from behind the stockade fence clearly do not know anything about firearms. Its just about the last place I would choose

► too little cover
► too close to people/witnesses
► high left-to-right angular target movement.

These are the sorts of things that CT's don't consider in their obsession to "know stuff the rest of us don't"

NOTE: The absolute LAST place I would choose is under the manhole cover (the one that some claim didn't actually exist in 1963) :D

Another thing CTs' fail to rationalize is that conspirators always seem to be at once, exceedingly cunning and clever, yet at the same time stupid and incompetent. They craft these massive, sooper seekrit conspiracies, and then leave stupid and obvious clues for everyone to find. CT's don't appear to have a problem reconciling this.
 
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It was a small group of well funded (by Osama Bin Laden) terrorists.

15 years and one day ago, Airliners were soft targets. The idea of someone doing the ATPL course in order to hijack them and kill people hadn't been considered.
Air defence radar looked outwards towards foreign threats, not hijacked planes in domestic airspace. The Air National Guard only had a handful of fueled up fighters on standby, none of which were heavily armed as the Soviet threat was gone.
 
What I don't get, though, is who would be upset by knowing that white supremacists were involved?

It's upsetting when any lone nut story turns into a wider conspiracy, especially when it is obvious that people in the government are trying to cover it up. Lone nut stories are like fast food in this country. Surveillance tapes showing more than one person with McVeigh seem to have been covered up, and also some of the existing tapes obtained by Jesse Trentadue may have been altered to cut out the truck and the explosion. Like I said, the revelations will most likely have to trickle down over the years. A better question to ask is why government intelligence is upset by knowing white supremacists were involved.

I'm sure the supremacists themselves would be quite happy to admit their part in fighting for what they believe in, and I really can't see anyone else tiptoeing around the sensibilities of these racist hillbillies.

They're not just racist hillbillies, the types who were most likely involved in the bombing were right wing anti-government survivalist nuts who had a vision to somehow wage war on the U.S. Government. McVeigh purportedly admitted a wider conspiracy in private a few times, and Nichols has publicly admitted a wider conspiracy on more occasions. Richard Wayne Snell seemed pretty happy with the whole ordeal, but he was executed. Richard Lee Guthrie Jr. stated that he was planning on writing a memoir that detailed much more than just his bank robbery career, soon after he was found hanging in his cell. Chevie Kehoe allegedly woke up a Motel owner in Spokane CO to turn on CNN because he was expecting big news, and jumped for joy when the bombing was reported (his brother Cheyne Kehoe has stated that he knows Chevie was involved in the bombing). Those are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. These aren't exactly tight-lipped people. The OKC bombing case needs to be fully re-opened.

I can PM ebooks about OKC to anybody who wants them.
 
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Wait....believing the fox's explanation for what happened in the hen house ...

I think that's called assuming what you need to prove.

You're comparing the official explanation in this analogy to a fox guarding the hen house, but you have yet to establish the officials who wrote the explanation had anything to do with guarding the hen house or eating the hens.

Good luck with that.

Hank
 
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Staggeringly so!



The TSBD was just about the ideal sniper's nest, though I would probably have chosen a lower floor (second or third if possible) to reduce the vertical tracking component and to shorten my escape route/time.

Those who claim the shots were taken from behind the stockade fence clearly do not know anything about firearms. Its just about the last place I would choose

► too little cover
► too close to people/witnesses
► high left-to-right angular target movement.

These are the sorts of things that CT's don't consider in their obsession to "know stuff the rest of us don't"

NOTE: The absolute LAST place I would choose is under the manhole cover (the one that some claim didn't actually exist in 1963) :D

Another thing CTs' fail to rationalize is that conspirators always seem to be at once, exceedingly cunning and clever, yet at the same time stupid and incompetent. They craft these massive, sooper seekrit conspiracies, and then leave stupid and obvious clues for everyone to find. CT's don't appear to have a problem reconciling this.

Perhaps your post (and this reply) should be moved to the other thread.

But Oswald couldn't shoot from a lower floor because the lower floors were devoted to office space. The sixth and seventh floors were open storage areas. And Oswald, as a warehouse worker, generally wouldn't be seen there on the lower floors. He couldn't just take his rifle down to the third floor, walk into someone's office and set up shop there.

And there were people in some of the windows on each floor during the assassination.

In fact, Elsie Dorman took film from the fourth floor of the Depository during the turn onto Elm and during the start of the shooting.

You can see it here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKc5zb3N-Mw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmejr-nmRoU

It's a shame she didn't know how to operate the camera effectively, or follow the limo down Elm Street.

Hank
 

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