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#361 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,177
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No. Scientifically speaking there is no difference between the sense of self and consciousness. They are simply two words for the same thing. Scientifically speaking these are abstract properties, not objects.
Stop trying to cram your made-up nonsense into other people's mouths. |
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#362 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,177
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So we're back to the standard numbers game. This discussion used to be about whether some process would produce the same self if repeated. Practically that's impossible because complex systems in science rarely repeat. This is the predictability problem Jabba once relied upon before. But when we remove the practical difficulty and speak hypothetically, Jabba has to punt. It's not about whether the characteristics can be reproduced or whether they derive naturally. It's about the ineffable "something" that somehow magically exists and attaches to mere cardinality.
Mathematically now he's just arguing a tautology. It's all about identity (in the mathematical sense) and the one property that any object -- no matter how closely modeled on another -- can share with it: its identity. The argument is "two is more than one because two is more than one." Unfortunately for Jabba's argument, it's still a straw man -- just a tautological one. In the scientific model there is no property attached to mere numerological identity that causes the emergent property of the self to differ any more than white is different because there are two snowballs. |
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#363 |
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,551
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"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon |
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#364 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,377
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Jabba you're an adult. You understand the difference between the two identical objects, a recreated object, and somehow recreating the same object. Stop acting like you don't.
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(Formally JoeBentley) "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en "Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong |
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#365 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,177
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#366 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 1,346
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#367 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,220
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One more time, with feeling. The self is not an entity, it is a process derived from a functioning brain. No functioning brain, no process. How hard is that to understand, Jabba?
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#368 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,461
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Dave,
- Agreed. - Right now I'm just trying to show why science would accept that there is no limited pool of potential selves. - And, without such a pool, potential selves must be infinite. |
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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#369 |
Great Dalmuti
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,264
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Is there a limited pool of potential brains?
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"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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#370 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 26,394
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Is there a limited pool of potential radio programs? If not, how unlikely is it that the one you just happened to listen to isn't a different one?
Dave |
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right |
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#371 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,461
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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#372 |
Great Dalmuti
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,264
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So is the likelihood of a particular brain existing some number over infinity?
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"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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#373 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,012
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#374 |
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 26,394
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I'm interested in this concept. If there's an unlimited number of possibilities as to the form an object can take, does that mean the object must have an immortal soul? Because I'm starting to worry that there's a potentially infinite number of forms a settee can take, and mine may be resenting me sitting on it.
Dave |
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Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right? Tony Szamboti: That is right |
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#375 |
Mostly harmless
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 30,012
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Jabba, when you turn a light on, what is the likelihood that the light that the light bulb produces is the light that it produces?
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"You got to use your brain." - McKinley Morganfield "The poor mystic homeopaths feel like petted house-cats thrown at high flood on the breaking ice." - Leon Trotsky |
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#376 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,177
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Asked and answered. The concept of "potential selves" is not part of the scientific model. You just made it up and are frantically trying to paste it into the model. The self is a property of the organism. You are trying to equivocate what "property" means. It's not something that exists in "pools" and it's not something that has a cardinality.
Science does not accept your pasted-on attachments, and I've given you the reasons why. You will predictably ignore all that because it's well established at this point that you do so for any real challenge to your belief. |
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#377 |
Do you want to date my Avatar?
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 24,996
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#378 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,220
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Asked before and ignored: once your parents conceived you, what is the likelihood that you would have become Jabba? What is the likelihood you would have become Napoleon?
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#379 |
Membership Drive
Co-Ordinator, Russell's Antinomy Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: ...1888 miles from home by the shortest route without tolls...
Posts: 17,348
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"They want to make their molehills equal to the mountains by cutting the mountains down." -turingtest "The universe did not come from nothing, it came from 'We don't know'." -Dancing David "Cry, booga, booga, booga! and let slip the Hamsters of Silly!" -JFDHintze |
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#380 |
Fiend God
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: In the details
Posts: 72,392
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Master of the Shining Darkness ![]() ![]() |
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#381 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 26,138
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#382 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,461
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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#383 |
Great Dalmuti
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,264
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So should we doubt the scientific hypothesis explaining the existence of human brains?
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"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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#384 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,461
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__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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#385 |
Great Dalmuti
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,264
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__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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#386 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,177
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This is exactly the fallacy of special pleading. Textbook definition.
Under H the self is identical to consciousness, which is an emergent property of a functioning brain. You've shown no qualitative reason that science should consider anything else. Your "computation" of probability works out the same for H as for ~H, so probability is definitely not a viable factor in your proof. You're down to simply claiming the soul exists "because." |
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#387 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,461
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__________________
"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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#388 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,220
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#389 |
Great Dalmuti
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 8,264
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__________________
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." - aggle-rithm |
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#390 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,492
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#391 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,177
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That is not the scientific hypothesis. The scientific hypothesis is that the self is identical to consciousness, and is an emergent property of the organism -- that "pile of parts."
If even giant red letters can't help you address the blatant straw man, then it's clear this thread is a debate in name only. |
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#392 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Central Canada
Posts: 1,346
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#393 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,177
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And let's be clear what this means. We're talking about H, the scientific hypothesis.
For some h in ~H, Jabba can invent whatever he wants. His hypothesis varies around the notion that the self is some ineffable aspect or component of the entire person and that it can exist separately from the body and thus persist after death. But for H, the scientific hypothesis, he can't just make up a bunch of pseudo-philosophical nonsense and expect that to stand. H has to be what skeptics, scientists, etc. actually conclude. You can't tell someone what his belief has to be in order to make it easier for you to refute. That's exactly the straw man fallacy. Jabba has to show that whatever he says is part of H is actually what scientists theorize, not what he desperately wishes H were. |
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#394 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 10,377
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Hell forget "prove it" show even the tinniest, tiniest, most basic shred of basic evidence for it's bare possibility.
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(Formally JoeBentley) "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset, Se7en "Hating a bad thing does not make you good." - David Wong |
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#395 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,492
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes... |
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#396 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,177
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And we're still speaking under the terms of H, so it has to be a shred of evidence for its possibility under the scientific model of consciousness. Not to be pedantic, but Jabba usually gets two or three pages of equivocation out of flip-flopping between talking about his ill-formed claim of an immortal soul and his straw-man foist over the top of the scientific hypothesis.
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#397 |
Do you want to date my Avatar?
Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Florida
Posts: 24,996
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Jabba - Even this statement is just not true. Mt. Rainier is an emergent property of a functioning ecosystem. Tectonic plates move, water and wind erode surfaces. Animals and birds scatter seeds, plants root, people hike up and down, even worms under the soil turn and soften it. Mt. Rainier looks different today that it did yesterday and even more different than it did thirty years ago. It is not a pile of parts any more or less than you are. |
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#398 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,461
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"The problem with the world is that the intelligent people are full of doubts while the stupid ones are full of confidence." Charles Bukowski "Most good ideas don't work." Jabba "Se due argomenti sembrano altrettanto convincenti, il meno sarcastico è probabilmente corretto." Jabba's Razor |
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#399 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
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#400 |
Illuminator
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,220
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