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Tags donald trump , internet incidents , Trump controversies , US-Russia relations , vladimir putin

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Old 4th January 2017, 07:52 AM   #201
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Here's the interview Hannity did with Assange in the Embassy, just published. Must be the ultimate nightmare for conformist stand-for-nothing pseudo-skeptics to see these two team up. I must admit even I think that's a bit on the bizarre end. Anyway, worth watching, especially the first half or so which is to the point on-topic for this thread.

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I AGREE
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Old 4th January 2017, 08:18 AM   #202
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...aaand Glenn Greenwald takes another swing at the Washington Pest and its ilk: WashPost Is Richly Rewarded for False News About Russia Threat While Public Is Deceived

Originally Posted by Glenn Greenwald
[...] Indeed, in my 10-plus years of writing about politics on an endless number of polarizing issues – including the Snowden reporting – nothing remotely compares to the smear campaign that has been launched as a result of the work I’ve done questioning and challenging claims about Russian hacking and the threat posed by that country generally. This is being engineered not by random and fringe accounts but by the most prominent Democratic pundits with the largest media followings.

I’ve been transformed, overnight, into an early adherent of alt-right ideology, an avid fan of Breitbart, an enthusiastic Trump supporter, and – needless to say – a Kremlin operative. That’s literally the explicit script they’re now using, often with outright fabrications of what I say (see here for one particularly glaring example).

They, of course, know all of this is false. A primary focus of the last 10 years of my journalism has been a defense of the civil liberties of Muslims. I wrote an entire book on the racism and inequality inherent in the U.S. justice system. My legal career involved numerous representations of victims of racial discrimination. I was one of the first journalists to condemn the misleadingly “neutral” approach to reporting on Trump and to call for more explicit condemnations of his extremism and lies. I was one of the few to defend Jorge Ramos from widespread media attacks when he challenged Trump’s immigration extremism. Along with many others, I tried to warn Democrats that nominating a candidate as unpopular as Hillary Clinton risked a Trump victory. And as someone who is very publicly in a same-sex, inter-racial marriage – with someone just elected to public office as a socialist – I make for a very unlikely alt-right leader, to put that mildly.

The malice of this campaign is exceeded only by its blatant stupidity. Even having to dignify it with a defense is depressing, though once it becomes this widespread, one has little choice.

But this is the climate Democrats have successfully cultivated – where anyone dissenting or even expressing skepticism about their deeply self-serving Russia narrative is the target of coordinated and potent smears; where, as the Nation’s James Carden documented yesterday, skepticism is literally equated with treason. And the converse is equally true: those who disseminate claims and stories that bolster this narrative – no matter how divorced from reason and evidence it is – receive an array of benefits and rewards.

That the story ends up being completely discredited matters little. The damage is done, and the benefits received. Fake News in the narrow sense of that term is certainly something worth worrying about. But whatever one wants to call this type of behavior from the Post, it is a much greater menace given how far the reach is of the institutions that engage in it.

[tons of links in snippet to find at link, whole long article worth reading]
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Old 4th January 2017, 08:52 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Putin ate their homework...
Who did he have to kill to get it?
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Old 4th January 2017, 09:28 AM   #204
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Sorry to the RT apologists having fun, but while I cannot say much, I will say I have had (legal) access to the full, detailed technical specs for a typical modern EU telecom, including all voice and data switching infrastructure (HW & SW). Let's just say there are many mechanisms for tracking supposedly anonymous traffic: think of the internet as sort of like a downtown urban environment with cameras you can replay at will to see what happened where and when. Whereas encryption may mask content (and not always), the routing is there to see, making senders almost as identifiable as receivers (with some diligence) by backtracking to the source ISP. (Beyond that I am guessing there are more things that can be done, but I cannot vouch for them.)

It could still be true that there is amateurism involved in the server hacking accusations, and they may have been made prematurely. So, it is still wait and see. For now, I don't think the intel is flawed, and rather than for a technical reason, I'll cite another: what it took for Comey's thoroughly Trumpist FBI to come around on the topic must have been epically convincing. As to the meme of the data release being a public service and no scandal, the other shoe that has yet to drop is if any compromising information was also found on GOP servers by the same group(s) and not released, making the entire operation transparently partisan. This may be what has some Republican Senate leaders still pushing for hearings they can control up front. Let's recall: this is the GOP of Abramoff fame and the Bureau of Indian Affairs scandal, and myriad others, including Reagan's record of 138 administration officials indicted. You know, the same, "honest" good ole boys who just tried to nix all effective oversight of their misdeeds.

As for fake news and echo chambers, political parties are in the business of power, and long ago they gave away the keys to the kingdom by allowing vast media concentration. It started with Reagan, and ended, as did proper financial oversight, during the Clinton administration. Yes, good ole Bill caved in to every major interest he could bend over for.
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Old 4th January 2017, 10:10 AM   #205
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^obvious WP apologist is obvious.
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Old 4th January 2017, 11:06 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Surely, this is as blatant an ad hominem as one can expect.

Mind, I'm not at all saying that Russia isn't behind the hacking. I think they are. But your post is a pretty obvious fallacy.
Originally Posted by The_Animus View Post
Because rather than address the argument, you attacked the character of the person making it. That's what is referred to as an ad hominem fallacy.
I said "Kim dot Com, now there is someone I can look up to"

He is after all an expert in the field of hacking and general internet skullduggery.
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Old 4th January 2017, 03:28 PM   #207
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I guessed incorrectly: the Russians did not reciprocate with expulsions (as I'd predicted when the story was newer). Color me surprised, but as this has played out I can see why they chose a different course of action.
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Old 4th January 2017, 03:34 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by Darth Rotor View Post
I guessed incorrectly: the Russians did not reciprocate with expulsions (as I'd predicted when the story was newer). Color me surprised, but as this has played out I can see why they chose a different course of action.
Well yes, when they have their poodle about to occupy the White House what do a few diplomats matter?
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Old 4th January 2017, 04:17 PM   #209
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Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well yes, when they have their poodle about to occupy the White House what do a few diplomats matter?
QFT
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Old 4th January 2017, 04:36 PM   #210
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President-elect Donald Trump has backed Wikileaks founder Julian Assange in casting doubt on intelligence alleging Russian meddling in the US election.

Mr Assange said Russia was not the source for the site's mass leak of emails from the Democratic Party.

Mr Trump has now backed that view in a tweet. He wrote: "Assange... said Russians did not give him the info!"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38505398
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Old 4th January 2017, 05:12 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by David RP View Post
I said "Kim dot Com, now there is someone I can look up to"

He is after all an expert in the field of hacking and general internet skullduggery.
Your post came off as sarcastic, implying that you feel kim dot com is less than reputable and that is some sort of argument against the post you were responding to.

Maybe you didn't intend it that way.
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Old 4th January 2017, 05:40 PM   #212
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The U.S. Government Thinks Thousands of Russian Hackers May Be Reading My Blog. They Aren’t.

Quote:
I found out, after some digging, that of the 876 suspicious IP addresses that the Department of Homeland Security and the Department of National Intelligence put on the Russian cyber attacker list, at least 367 of them (roughly 42%) are either Tor exit nodes right now, or were Tor exit nodes in the last few years. I have a lot of regular readers who are Tor users, and I’m pretty sure they’re not all Russian hackers. So the quick answer to the mystery of my website apparently being attacked by nefarious IP addresses listed in the U.S. report is that the Russians, along with many thousands of others, just happened to use the Tor IP addresses that my regular readers used (and still use).
Glenn himself had some choice words for WaPo's irresponsible behavior lately, too.

https://theintercept.com/2017/01/04/...c-is-deceived/

I'm still in the 'plausible/likely but not proven' camp. Even for those fully convinced, here's the takeaway we can hopefully see as common ground: Fake news doesn't only mean made from whole cloth. What's that line about the best lies...?
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Old 5th January 2017, 06:41 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
here's the takeaway we can hopefully see as common ground: Fake news doesn't only mean made from whole cloth. What's that line about the best lies...?
Actually, that is exactly what fake news means. We can't have common ground when you are altering the meaning of words.
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Old 5th January 2017, 08:07 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Actually, that is exactly what fake news means. We can't have common ground when you are altering the meaning of words.
Who made you the arbiter of what "fake news" means? In my opinion, "fake news" includes the Washington Post article about Russian hacking of the electrical grid in Vermont. It is impractical to define fake news as being made up out of whole cloth anyway. Virtually nothing is made up out of whole cloth. There is always at least some grounding in common knowledge (or somewhat tailored cloth, if you will). Otherwise it would have no influence at all.
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Old 5th January 2017, 08:11 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Who made you the arbiter of what "fake news" means? In my opinion, "fake news" includes the Washington Post article about Russian hacking of the electrical grid in Vermont. It is impractical to define fake news as being made up out of whole cloth anyway. Virtually nothing is made up out of whole cloth. There is always at least some grounding in common knowledge (or somewhat tailored cloth, if you will). Otherwise it would have no influence at all.
I don't know if that one was fake news. There was a source, maybe?

Some news stories are made up of whole cloth like the Pope endorses Trump article. That was literally made up in every respect.
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Old 5th January 2017, 08:42 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by sunmaster14 View Post
Who made you the arbiter of what "fake news" means? In my opinion, "fake news" includes the Washington Post article about Russian hacking of the electrical grid in Vermont. It is impractical to define fake news as being made up out of whole cloth anyway. Virtually nothing is made up out of whole cloth. There is always at least some grounding in common knowledge (or somewhat tailored cloth, if you will). Otherwise it would have no influence at all.
How was that fake news?
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Old 5th January 2017, 09:53 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
How was that fake news?
Sunmaster is perpetuating the right's attempt to co-opt the term "fake news" in order to deflect rational criticism about the post-factual society. In other words, don't indulge him.
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Old 5th January 2017, 09:53 AM   #218
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Senate Hearings are on going as I type.

Quote:
The top U.S. intelligence official told a Senate committee Thursday that he has a high level of confidence in findings that Russia was behind political hacking during the 2016 U.S. election, and called it part of a “multifaceted campaign.”
link

I can't think of any reason for American intelligence agencies to lie about this.
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Old 5th January 2017, 09:58 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
How was that fake news?
It could be. We cannot rule out that there anonymous source was a work of fiction by the journalist.
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Old 5th January 2017, 12:02 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
Senate Hearings are on going as I type.



link

I can't think of any reason for American intelligence agencies to lie about this.
More money, less oversight, broader scope of operations, etc.
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Old 5th January 2017, 12:20 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
More money, less oversight, broader scope of operations, etc.
OK let me rephrase. I can think of any rational/logic reason for the intelligence agencies to lie about this.

Sure we can come up with all sorts wild speculation but that's not very useful.
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Old 5th January 2017, 12:26 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
OK let me rephrase. I can think of any rational/logic reason for the intelligence agencies to lie about this.

Sure we can come up with all sorts wild speculation but that's not very useful.

"The Intelligence agencies"? At best nameless "officials". What are their names, given they exist? Maybe the liar Clapper, the liar Brennan and that Homeland Security guy? You're fired, you're fired and you're fired as well, they hear in their ears all day and all night. And then? Let me Google this for you.
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Old 5th January 2017, 12:54 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
OK let me rephrase. I can think of any rational/logic reason for the intelligence agencies to lie about this.

Sure we can come up with all sorts wild speculation but that's not very useful.
Intelligence agencies wanting more unhindered operational mandate is a 'wild speculation' now? I mean I guess we can argue about whether increasing an agencies powers and resources is rational or not in various contexts, but the idea that they often do want it isn't exactly a leap.
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Old 5th January 2017, 01:15 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Biscuit View Post
I can't think of any reason for American intelligence agencies to lie about this.
People don't have to lie to convince themselves of things that are in their own interest to believe.
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Old 5th January 2017, 01:19 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
How was that fake news?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/kalevlee.../#71783c29291e
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Old 5th January 2017, 01:33 PM   #226
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
The article repeatedly calls it false news.

The story was false. If it was fake or not is unclear.
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Old 5th January 2017, 01:57 PM   #227
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False news or fake news? Seems like a distinction without a difference.

In both instances, an outlet is knowingly publishing a story of dubious veracity with the intention of generating page views and thus revenue. In both instances, the public are exposed to inaccurate information from which conclusions are drawn about what policies to pursue.
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Old 5th January 2017, 02:06 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
False news or fake news? Seems like a distinction without a difference.

In both instances, an outlet is knowingly publishing a story of dubious veracity with the intention of generating page views and thus revenue. In both instances, the public are exposed to inaccurate information from which conclusions are drawn about what policies to pursue.
There is a huge difference between dubious veracity and a story with no truth to it because you knowingly wrote a work of fiction.
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Old 5th January 2017, 02:13 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a huge difference between dubious veracity and a story with no truth to it because you knowingly wrote a work of fiction.
Why is there a huge difference? The problem (presumably) with fake news is not that someone makes it up. The Onion does that all the time, and nobody minds. The problem is when it causes people to make bad decisions based on that bad information. But that can happen with any bad information, regardless of the motive behind its creation.

Given the deference granted to nominally respectable sources like the Washington Post, I'd say that when they screw up a story this badly (and do that bad a job at correcting it), the consequences can be worse than with many of these fringe sources that deliberately forge news.
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Old 5th January 2017, 02:19 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Why is there a huge difference? The problem (presumably) with fake news is not that someone makes it up. The Onion does that all the time, and nobody minds. The problem is when it causes people to make bad decisions based on that bad information. But that can happen with any bad information, regardless of the motive behind its creation.

Given the deference granted to nominally respectable sources like the Washington Post, I'd say that when they screw up a story this badly (and do that bad a job at correcting it), the consequences can be worse than with many of these fringe sources that deliberately forge news.
I'm indifferent to the issue of consequence. This is solely an issue of classification and there being a clear line of demarcation.
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Old 5th January 2017, 02:25 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
There is a huge difference between dubious veracity and a story with no truth to it because you knowingly wrote a work of fiction.
So one can escape the 'fake news' label and thus avoid criticism if they merely claim the work of fiction was relayed to them by 'anonymous sources'?
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Old 5th January 2017, 02:27 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Delphic Oracle View Post
So one can escape the 'fake news' label and thus avoid criticism if they merely claim the work of fiction was relayed to them by 'anonymous sources'?
I gave no opinion on what type or level of criticism should be leveled at either case. Nothing I wrote should be construed as arguing one is worse than the other.
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Old 5th January 2017, 02:31 PM   #233
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It was sooo predictable that this "fake news" thing will come around and bite them in their own rear ends, which is why I predicted it.

Originally Posted by your's truly , November 19, 2016 View Post
Interesting article about Steve Bannon.

Originally Posted by Hollywood Reporter
"The media bubble is the ultimate symbol of what's wrong with this country," he continues. "It's just a circle of people talking to themselves who have no ******* idea what's going on. If The New York Times didn't exist, CNN and MSNBC would be a test pattern. The Huffington Post and everything else is predicated on The New York Times. It's a closed circle of information from which Hillary Clinton got all her information — and her confidence. That was our opening."

And now the same closed-circuit morons come up with this "fake news" thing, which of course will backfire as well. The meme is already occupied.
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Old 5th January 2017, 02:33 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm indifferent to the issue of consequence. This is solely an issue of classification and there being a clear line of demarcation.
Then you're just arguing semantics, and those are the most boring arguments possible. Consequences are what matters, they're why the topic is of any interest to begin with.
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Old 5th January 2017, 02:34 PM   #235
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Then you're just arguing semantics, and those are the most boring arguments possible. Consequences are what matters, they're why the topic is of any interest to begin with.
I have the exact opposite opinion. Semantics are the most interesting arguments on this forum.
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Old 5th January 2017, 09:59 PM   #236
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Here's McAfee, obviously bought by Putin with a jar of "caviar", but rumour has it that Trump is already one tweet ahead again.

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Old 5th January 2017, 11:23 PM   #237
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btw for the Yankistani victims, since the NDAA 2013 it is legal to bother you with this crap.
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Old 6th January 2017, 02:36 AM   #238
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It needed to be said.

Quote:

US Vice-President Joe Biden has told President-elect Donald Trump to "grow up" and criticised his attacks on the intelligence community.

On Friday, Mr Trump will be briefed on allegations Russia meddled in the US presidential election - claims he has cast doubt on.

Mr Biden said it was "absolutely mindless" for the president-elect not to have faith in intelligence agencies.

For a president not to have confidence in, not to be prepared to listen to, the myriad intelligence agencies, from defence intelligence to the CIA, is absolutely mindless," he said*in an interviewwith the PBS network.

"The idea that you may know more than the intelligence community knows - it's like saying I know more about physics than my professor. I didn't read the book, I just know I know more."

When asked what he thought of Mr Trump's regular attacks on Twitter, Mr Biden said: "Grow up Donald, grow up, time to be an adult, you're president. Time to do something. Show us what you have."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38526570

Last edited by Captain_Swoop; 6th January 2017 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 6th January 2017, 04:16 AM   #239
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I didn't see this covered anywhere yet, so could someone tell me how they know the Russians hacked the DNC when they've never even looked at the DNC servers? I'd really like to understand this because I am certainly confused about it. I thought to determine if something had been hacked you had to examine the files on a server for the malware? Anybody?
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Old 6th January 2017, 04:29 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Unfortunately the American political class are the ones who allowed someone like Trump to behave like this. Relentless and sustained attacks against impartial and objective science by climate change deniers and creationists alike, among others, have seriously damaged Americans trust in authoritative sources and by extension their trust in government and the state itself.

This is one of the reason why dishonest and deceptive demagogues like Trump are able to get away with bold faced lies: his behavior isn't all that out of the ordinary. It's not like he sprung out of nowhere.
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