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 26th November 2016, 08:33 AM #1 wogoga Critical Thinker   Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 334 Athletics Records on the Moon Let us assume a huge sports hall on the moon with terrestrial air inside. How would athletics records differ from corresponding records on Earth? In case of long jump, triple jump, hammer throw and javelin throw, reasonable first guesses can be made by simply multiplying terrestrial records by factor six, due to the fact that lunar gravity is only 1/6 = 17% of terrestrial gravity (i.e. 83% weightlessness with respect to gravity on Earth). Thus as "lunar athletics records" we roughly get: Long jump: 50 m Triple jump: 110 m Hammer throw: 500 m Javelin throw: 600 m A reasonable first guess for high jump is more difficult. In case of pole vault I would assume that jumps up to a height of around 30 m should be possible with corresponding long and flexible poles. Does somebody know how to make reasonable guesses for sprint races? Cheers, Wolfgang
 26th November 2016, 09:01 AM #2 Ranb Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 10,445 That depends upon if you're in a bulky spacesuit or not.
 26th November 2016, 09:08 AM #3 rwguinn Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes Posts: 11,098 Sprints would likely be slower, due to reduced friction forces. That would also reduce the length of the jumps. Although they would be greater than on Earth, a 6X across-the-board is probably not correct... __________________ "Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end." "I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
 26th November 2016, 09:24 AM #4 Lukraak_Sisser Illuminator   Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,315 I think the javelin throw might be much further, assuming it is thrown in a vacuum. No air friction. No idea how much this will affect the hammer throw, but my gut feeling says less.
 26th November 2016, 09:42 AM #5 Peregrinus Graduate Poster   Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 1,213 Positing Earthly atmosphere & Lunar gravity, pole vaulting would be quite spectacular.
 26th November 2016, 09:45 AM #6 Jrrarglblarg Guest   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 12,673 So far, only Americans have received the inevitable "participation ribbon." Who do y'all think is next? Russia, China and India have the next-most developed space programs behind ours. I think it will be India.
 26th November 2016, 10:10 AM #7 Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler     Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,511 Originally Posted by rwguinn Sprints would likely be slower, due to reduced friction forces. That would also reduce the length of the jumps. Although they would be greater than on Earth, a 6X across-the-board is probably not correct... Yeah, this would affect most of the track and field events in an unexpected fashion. Even the throwing events build up a portion of the initial throwing speed via a short run-up or spin-up to the launch point. You'd also have to consider the factor of stopping for those throwing sports. Stepping over the line usually counts as a fault, and stopping would be harder in lower gravity. Mis-time your steps, and you could still be in mid-air at the wrong time, causing a fault. __________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
 26th November 2016, 10:46 AM #8 alfaniner Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Sorth Dakonsin Posts: 26,153 Where on Earth could you train for something like that? I'd love to see the synchronized high-high-high diving event.
 26th November 2016, 11:07 AM #9 Jrrarglblarg Guest   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 12,673 Sub-orbital trampoline. Long distance lacrosse. Tactical ping pong.
 26th November 2016, 01:22 PM #10 fuelair Banned     Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 58,581 Originally Posted by Ranb That depends upon if you're in a bulky spacesuit or not. That's why our air in the sealed arena!!!
 26th November 2016, 01:56 PM #11 jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 40 miles north of the border Posts: 20,843 For simple trajectories simply substitute 1.63 m/s 2 for 9.8 in the equations for a given horizontal velocity, and elevation angle at release. How far the object, javalin, shot put etc. goes is directly related to the time of flight and horizontal velocity. Initial vertical velocity will give the time to top of arc, and return can be set to the same value. Let's sat 10m/s horz and 10m/s vertical. Time to top of arc. On Earth 0=10-9.8 (t) t=10/9.8 On the Moon 0=10-1.63 (t) t=10/1.63 Yes, 6 times that on Earth. Therefore it will travel 6 times as long at 10 m/s horizontal velocity therefore go 6 times further.
 26th November 2016, 02:02 PM #12 jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 40 miles north of the border Posts: 20,843 Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg Sub-orbital trampoline. Long distance lacrosse. Tactical ping pong. Unless I miss my guess.... if the object of a contest is to throw something upwards, rather than a long horizontal distance, things change. d=0.5a (t)2 The time to top of arc increased by 6. The height at top of arc would be 36 times that on Earth. Standing high jump would be a new sport.
 26th November 2016, 02:04 PM #13 FenerFan Illuminator     Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Istanbul...again Posts: 3,103 What about archery and shooting events? I imagine the flights of the arrows and projectiles would be much different, or maybe not. I have no clue. __________________ "... no man wants his obituary to mention a pig." --phiwum “Limp Bizkit did nothing wrong.”- Chalkman
 26th November 2016, 02:35 PM #14 jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 40 miles north of the border Posts: 20,843 Originally Posted by FenerFan What about archery and shooting events? I imagine the flights of the arrows and projectiles would be much different, or maybe not. I have no clue. Sights would have to be adjusted. Other than that, if the distance to target is the same as on Earth, no change.
 26th November 2016, 04:23 PM #15 Ranb Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: WA USA Posts: 10,445 Originally Posted by fuelair That's why our air in the sealed arena!!! I understand that. But we still get the occasional moonbat who thinks an Apollo astronaut should have been demonstrating amazing feats of agility and acrobatics because they were in 1/6th gravity. Never mind that the bulky spacesuit restricted movement and they wanted to avoid falling.
 26th November 2016, 04:30 PM #17 Horatius NWO Kitty Wrangler     Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 29,511 Originally Posted by fuelair That's why our air in the sealed arena!!! Originally Posted by FenerFan What about archery and shooting events? I imagine the flights of the arrows and projectiles would be much different, or maybe not. I have no clue. Note to self: use bulletproof domes. __________________ Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
 26th November 2016, 04:52 PM #18 Meridian Critical Thinker   Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 266 Originally Posted by jaydeehess Unless I miss my guess.... if the object of a contest is to throw something upwards, rather than a long horizontal distance, things change. d=0.5a (t)2 The time to top of arc increased by 6. The height at top of arc would be 36 times that on Earth. Standing high jump would be a new sport. No: t goes up by a factor of 6 but a goes down by the same factor, so the height would be 6 times. (Which you can also see more easily by considering energy.)
 26th November 2016, 07:21 PM #19 Modified Philosopher     Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 6,985 Originally Posted by jaydeehess Standing high jump would be a new sport. It was an Olympic sport from 1900 to 1912.
 27th November 2016, 03:05 AM #20 rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger     Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 27,130 One thing you have all overlooked is that if you have the events inside the dome the air pressure may be different. It could be 100% oxygen and no nitrogen. That means air resistance would be a lot less. __________________ This signature is for rent.
 27th November 2016, 07:06 AM #21 Jrrarglblarg Guest   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 12,673 Originally Posted by rjh01 One thing you have all overlooked is that if you have the events inside the dome the air pressure may be different. It could be 100% oxygen and no nitrogen. That means air resistance would be a lot less. Unlikely scenario. Google "Apollo 1"
 27th November 2016, 01:54 PM #22 rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger     Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 27,130 Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg Unlikely scenario. Google "Apollo 1" The total air pressure would be 20% of earth's air pressure at sea level. In Apollo 1 air pressure was 100% and 100% oxygen. This means that the fire risk is the same as on Earth. Yet air resistance would be a lot less. Sorry I did not specify the air pressure. I thought that would be obvious. Edit. In fact I did specify a different air pressure in my original post. __________________ This signature is for rent. Last edited by rjh01; 27th November 2016 at 01:56 PM.
 27th November 2016, 02:46 PM #23 alexi_drago Graduate Poster   Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 1,353 Traction force before slipping will be lower so will reduce acceleration on sprint starts, jumps, throwing events. Wouldn't the fact that while running, when you have both feet off the ground your downward acceleration is lower so you'd have less time with contact with the ground to propel youself forward? __________________ The secret NASA doesn't want you to know - God makes rockets work in space.
 27th November 2016, 04:12 PM #24 John Jones Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Iowa USA Posts: 12,131 Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg Unlikely scenario. Google "Apollo 1" Ouch!
 28th November 2016, 03:31 AM #25 Roboramma Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 14,988 Originally Posted by wogoga Let us assume a huge sports hall on the moon with terrestrial air inside. Originally Posted by rjh01 One thing you have all overlooked is that if you have the events inside the dome the air pressure may be different. It could be 100% oxygen and no nitrogen. That means air resistance would be a lot less. "Terrestrial air" seems pretty clear to me. __________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov
 28th November 2016, 03:53 AM #26 catsmate No longer the 1     Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,343 Originally Posted by FenerFan What about archery and shooting events? I imagine the flights of the arrows and projectiles would be much different, or maybe not. I have no clue. Arrows wouldn't work in a vacuum, unless you developed a rifled bow (à la 'Robin Hood FRS'). __________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
 28th November 2016, 03:56 AM #27 Roboramma Penultimate Amazing   Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 14,988 Originally Posted by catsmate Arrows wouldn't work in a vacuum, unless you developed a rifled bow (à la 'Robin Hood FRS'). What would happen to them? I imagine you're saying they'd be very inaccurate, which makes sense. But not that they wouldn't shoot. __________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov
 28th November 2016, 04:12 AM #28 catsmate No longer the 1     Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,343 Originally Posted by Roboramma What would happen to them? I imagine you're saying they'd be very inaccurate, which makes sense. But not that they wouldn't shoot. Oh they'd shoot, just not very well. Arrows, quarrels, darts et cetera are drag-stabilised and require an atmosphere to function. The arrow would rapidly destabilise and start tumbling end-over-end. The fletchings (the feather bits at the back of an arrow to non-archers ) cause drag which opposes movement of the arrow from it's line of flight. They may (but aren't always) angled to cause a slight, slow, spin in the arrow creating gyroscopic stability also. When fired an arrow flexes, due to bending and compression by the firing, which the fletchings compensate for; without their contribution the arrow would begin to rotate on it's long axis. __________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
 28th November 2016, 04:17 AM #29 abaddon Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,193 Originally Posted by Roboramma What would happen to them? I imagine you're saying they'd be very inaccurate, which makes sense. But not that they wouldn't shoot. Yup, In a word, fletching. It stabilises an arrows flight in air. In a vacuum, there would be no such effect. __________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...
 28th November 2016, 04:40 AM #30 catsmate No longer the 1     Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 26,343 Originally Posted by abaddon Yup, In a word, fletching. It stabilises an arrows flight in air. In a vacuum, there would be no such effect. Hence the development of a rifled bow. __________________ As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
 28th November 2016, 12:24 PM #31 jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 40 miles north of the border Posts: 20,843 Originally Posted by rjh01 The total air pressure would be 20% of earth's air pressure at sea level. In Apollo 1 air pressure was 100% and 100% oxygen. This means that the fire risk is the same as on Earth. Yet air resistance would be a lot less. Sorry I did not specify the air pressure. I thought that would be obvious. Edit. In fact I did specify a different air pressure in my original post. If air presure was 20% that of Earth sea level the contestents would not be running and jumping. They'd be gasping for air. The summit of Mt. Everest is about 33% the air pressure of sea level. The dome is a sealed container. The air pressure can be whatever you want it to be. And no, Apollo's 100% oxygen level meant there was 5 times as much oxygen per litre of atmosphere in the capsule than on Earth and thus fires could burn fuel 5 times faster, thus release as much heat 5 times faster, and spread faster than on Earth. Normal Earth sea level atmosphere is about 20% oxygen and near 80% nitrogen. Last edited by jaydeehess; 28th November 2016 at 12:27 PM.
 28th November 2016, 12:36 PM #32 abaddon Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,193 Originally Posted by catsmate Hence the development of a rifled bow. Remember my post about the seagulls? Good. __________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...
 28th November 2016, 12:39 PM #33 Jrrarglblarg Guest   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 12,673 Originally Posted by jaydeehess If air presure was 20% that of Earth sea level the contestents would not be running and jumping. They'd be gasping for air. The summit of Mt. Everest is about 33% the air pressure of sea level. The dome is a sealed container. The air pressure can be whatever you want it to be. And no, Apollo's 100% oxygen level meant there was 5 times as much oxygen per litre of atmosphere in the capsule than on Earth and thus fires could burn fuel 5 times faster, thus release as much heat 5 times faster, and spread faster than on Earth. Normal Earth sea level atmosphere is about 20% oxygen and near 80% nitrogen. The partial pressure of oxygen in earth atmosphere at 15psi is something like 4.5psi. Been awhile since I've had to wikibash a moonbat so I don't remember the exact figures and I'm rounding, but it's in that neighborhood. So the Apollo vehicles were designed to contain a full-oxygen environment at 4-5 psi above ambient, in this case vacuum of space. For reasons best discussed elsewhere, NASA engineers ran the first "plugs out" test of the vehicle, meaning disconnected from all external supply, with pure oxygen at 15psi. At that fuel-air ratio Velcro (high surface area per weigh) became almost a low explosive. A "rich" burn has high fuel per unit of air, a "lean" burn has low fuel per unit of air. Burning rich is cooler than burning lean, because unburned fuel carries away both reaction heat and unreleased chemical energy, where lean combustion releases ALL the chemical heat from a fuel. With sea-level pressure pure oxygen, it was a very lean burn environment.
 28th November 2016, 01:21 PM #34 rjh01 Gentleman of leisure Tagger     Join Date: May 2005 Location: Flying around in the sky Posts: 27,130 Originally Posted by jaydeehess If air presure was 20% that of Earth sea level the contestents would not be running and jumping. They'd be gasping for air. The summit of Mt. Everest is about 33% the air pressure of sea level. The dome is a sealed container. The air pressure can be whatever you want it to be. And no, Apollo's 100% oxygen level meant there was 5 times as much oxygen per litre of atmosphere in the capsule than on Earth and thus fires could burn fuel 5 times faster, thus release as much heat 5 times faster, and spread faster than on Earth. Normal Earth sea level atmosphere is about 20% oxygen and near 80% nitrogen. Again your post is rubbish. The Earth's atmosphere is 20% oxygen. On the moon you would have the same partial pressure of oxygen as Earth, the difference is that there would not be the nitrogen in the atmosphere. So 100% oxygen. Total air pressure of 20% of Earth's. Even your bit about Apollo is wrong. The fire STARTED partly because it was 1 full atmosphere of pressure of oxygen. Some wires were hot and in contact with something that could burn. This would not normally pose a problem, but with the extra oxygen it burned. __________________ This signature is for rent.
 28th November 2016, 02:25 PM #35 Jrrarglblarg Guest   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 12,673 Yes. The fire conditions aboard Apollo1 did not accurately replicate the conditions the craft would experience in use, a low-pressure pure oxygen environment. I was being flippant and incorrect when referring upthread to Apollo1, forgetting how few around here anymore know the deeper details of both the event and the environmental conditions around it. On the moon they might use pure oxygen, but not likely. It's less robust for a habitat in ways we could discuss elsewhere. More likely, they'll use full sea level pressure because it's better at pushing all the vacuum out of the dome and onto the searing radiation hell of the lunar deathscape.
 28th November 2016, 02:47 PM #36 Spindrift Time Person of the Year, 2006     Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Right here! Posts: 19,246 Assuming earth-like atmosphere with lunar gravity, for the throwing events they would most likely change the implements otherwise the area needed for the competition would be enormous. Back in the 1980's they redesigned the javelin, one of the reasons was the they were throwing too far 100M+ and stadiums were not big enough if the throws got much longer. For the shot put, they might from from 16 lbs to 100 lbs. For the jumping events, the length of the pole could be unwieldy for the vaulter to lift and run with. Also all the events depend on speed as well as power. Can a similar velocity be achieved on the moon? __________________ I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black. Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
 28th November 2016, 02:50 PM #37 Jrrarglblarg Guest   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 12,673 The astronauts all discovered a loping, hopping gait that maximized traction on push off for further travel per step. I think earth-type running would not be used.
 28th November 2016, 03:09 PM #38 abaddon Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Republic of Ireland Posts: 23,193 Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg The astronauts all discovered a loping, hopping gait that maximized traction on push off for further travel per step. I think earth-type running would not be used. The astronauts had to figure it out the hard way. Woo merchants do not like that. __________________ Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? ...love and buttercakes...
 28th November 2016, 03:38 PM #39 Jrrarglblarg Guest   Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 12,673 Have you seen the Mythbusters episode on the topic? Adam gets to try the loping hop in the Vomit Comet, and reported it was every bit as natural and effective in that gravity as walking normally is normally.
 28th November 2016, 04:18 PM #40 jaydeehess Penultimate Amazing     Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: 40 miles north of the border Posts: 20,843 Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg I was being flippant and incorrect when referring upthread to Apollo1, forgetting how few around here anymore know the deeper details of both the event and the environmental conditions around it. On the moon they might use pure oxygen, but not likely. It's less robust for a habitat in ways we could discuss elsewhere. More likely, they'll use full sea level pressure because it's better at pushing all the vacuum out of the dome and onto the searing radiation hell of the lunar deathscape. Searing the hell out of a ejected vaccum.......... Hey, don't go apolgizing for being flippant, then go all flippant again in the next paragraph. It confuses some of us. Of course everyone knows that increasing the air pressure will increase the gravity in the dome too.

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