IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 26th November 2016, 08:33 AM   #1
wogoga
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 334
Athletics Records on the Moon

Let us assume a huge sports hall on the moon with terrestrial air inside. How would athletics records differ from corresponding records on Earth?

In case of long jump, triple jump, hammer throw and javelin throw, reasonable first guesses can be made by simply multiplying terrestrial records by factor six, due to the fact that lunar gravity is only 1/6 = 17% of terrestrial gravity (i.e. 83% weightlessness with respect to gravity on Earth).

Thus as "lunar athletics records" we roughly get:
  • Long jump: 50 m
  • Triple jump: 110 m
  • Hammer throw: 500 m
  • Javelin throw: 600 m
A reasonable first guess for high jump is more difficult. In case of pole vault I would assume that jumps up to a height of around 30 m should be possible with corresponding long and flexible poles.

Does somebody know how to make reasonable guesses for sprint races?

Cheers, Wolfgang
wogoga is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 09:01 AM   #2
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,445
That depends upon if you're in a bulky spacesuit or not.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 09:08 AM   #3
rwguinn
Penultimate Amazing
 
rwguinn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: 16 miles from 7 lakes
Posts: 11,098
Sprints would likely be slower, due to reduced friction forces.
That would also reduce the length of the jumps. Although they would be greater than on Earth, a 6X across-the-board is probably not correct...
__________________
"Political correctness is a doctrine,...,which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end."
"
I pointed out that his argument was wrong in every particular, but he rightfully took me to task for attacking only the weak points." Myriad http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?postid=6853275#post6853275
rwguinn is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 09:24 AM   #4
Lukraak_Sisser
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4,315
I think the javelin throw might be much further, assuming it is thrown in a vacuum. No air friction.
No idea how much this will affect the hammer throw, but my gut feeling says less.
Lukraak_Sisser is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 09:42 AM   #5
Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 1,213
Positing Earthly atmosphere & Lunar gravity, pole vaulting would be quite spectacular.
Peregrinus is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 09:45 AM   #6
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
So far, only Americans have received the inevitable "participation ribbon." Who do y'all think is next? Russia, China and India have the next-most developed space programs behind ours. I think it will be India.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 10:10 AM   #7
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,511
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
Sprints would likely be slower, due to reduced friction forces.
That would also reduce the length of the jumps. Although they would be greater than on Earth, a 6X across-the-board is probably not correct...


Yeah, this would affect most of the track and field events in an unexpected fashion. Even the throwing events build up a portion of the initial throwing speed via a short run-up or spin-up to the launch point.

You'd also have to consider the factor of stopping for those throwing sports. Stepping over the line usually counts as a fault, and stopping would be harder in lower gravity. Mis-time your steps, and you could still be in mid-air at the wrong time, causing a fault.
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 10:46 AM   #8
alfaniner
Penultimate Amazing
 
alfaniner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Sorth Dakonsin
Posts: 26,153
Where on Earth could you train for something like that?

I'd love to see the synchronized high-high-high diving event.
alfaniner is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 11:07 AM   #9
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Sub-orbital trampoline. Long distance lacrosse. Tactical ping pong.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 01:22 PM   #10
fuelair
Banned
 
fuelair's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 58,581
Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
That depends upon if you're in a bulky spacesuit or not.
That's why our air in the sealed arena!!!
fuelair is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 01:56 PM   #11
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
For simple trajectories simply substitute 1.63 m/s 2 for 9.8 in the equations for a given horizontal velocity, and elevation angle at release.

How far the object, javalin, shot put etc. goes is directly related to the time of flight and horizontal velocity.
Initial vertical velocity will give the time to top of arc, and return can be set to the same value.

Let's sat 10m/s horz and 10m/s vertical. Time to top of arc.

On Earth 0=10-9.8 (t)
t=10/9.8
On the Moon 0=10-1.63 (t)
t=10/1.63
Yes, 6 times that on Earth. Therefore it will travel 6 times as long at 10 m/s horizontal velocity therefore go 6 times further.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 02:02 PM   #12
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Sub-orbital trampoline. Long distance lacrosse. Tactical ping pong.
Unless I miss my guess....
if the object of a contest is to throw something upwards, rather than a long horizontal distance, things change.
d=0.5a (t)2
The time to top of arc increased by 6. The height at top of arc would be 36 times that on Earth.

Standing high jump would be a new sport.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 02:04 PM   #13
FenerFan
Illuminator
 
FenerFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Istanbul...again
Posts: 3,103
What about archery and shooting events? I imagine the flights of the arrows and projectiles would be much different, or maybe not. I have no clue.
__________________
"... no man wants his obituary to mention a pig." --phiwum
“Limp Bizkit did nothing wrong.”- Chalkman
FenerFan is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 02:35 PM   #14
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
What about archery and shooting events? I imagine the flights of the arrows and projectiles would be much different, or maybe not. I have no clue.
Sights would have to be adjusted. Other than that, if the distance to target is the same as on Earth, no change.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 04:23 PM   #15
Ranb
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ranb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: WA USA
Posts: 10,445
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
That's why our air in the sealed arena!!!
I understand that. But we still get the occasional moonbat who thinks an Apollo astronaut should have been demonstrating amazing feats of agility and acrobatics because they were in 1/6th gravity. Never mind that the bulky spacesuit restricted movement and they wanted to avoid falling.
Ranb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 04:29 PM   #16
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,511
Originally Posted by alfaniner View Post
Where on Earth could you train for something like that?
Well, you just couldn't. Training would have to be done on the Moon. Some events would require fundamentally different technique from what we see on Earth. For example, I was thinking further about this:


Originally Posted by Horatius View Post
You'd also have to consider the factor of stopping for those throwing sports. Stepping over the line usually counts as a fault, and stopping would be harder in lower gravity. Mis-time your steps, and you could still be in mid-air at the wrong time, causing a fault.

I used to throw javelin in high school, so that's what I was thinking about. You'd need to be able to get up to top running speed in a short distance, throw, and then stop. Running and stopping would be harder, due to lower friction, and longer hang time if you're sprinting like we do on Earth.

So I was thinking, maybe we could run using a "skating" motion, keep you body tilted farther forward than a traditional run, and push off with more side-to-side action, which would tend to make you move up less than a traditional running motion. But then you'd have to figure out how to transition to a posture that allows the throw. Stopping would end up being more like sliding face-first into a base in baseball - stay low so you don't waste time in the air, and use the whole surface of your body to stop, rather than just your feet.

It would look almost completely unlike an Earth-based javelin throw, and as I said above, probably couldn't be trained here on Earth. You might be able to do some of the individual motions, but putting it all together would require the lower gravity.



Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Standing high jump would be a new sport.

Don't the basketball guys already have vertical leap contests?
__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 04:30 PM   #17
Horatius
NWO Kitty Wrangler
 
Horatius's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 29,511
Originally Posted by fuelair View Post
That's why our air in the sealed arena!!!
Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
What about archery and shooting events? I imagine the flights of the arrows and projectiles would be much different, or maybe not. I have no clue.


Note to self: use bulletproof domes.

__________________
Obviously, that means cats are indeed evil and that ownership or display of a feline is an overt declaration of one's affiliation with dark forces. - Cl1mh4224rd
Horatius is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 04:52 PM   #18
Meridian
Critical Thinker
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 266
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Unless I miss my guess....
if the object of a contest is to throw something upwards, rather than a long horizontal distance, things change.
d=0.5a (t)2
The time to top of arc increased by 6. The height at top of arc would be 36 times that on Earth.

Standing high jump would be a new sport.
No: t goes up by a factor of 6 but a goes down by the same factor, so the height would be 6 times. (Which you can also see more easily by considering energy.)
Meridian is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th November 2016, 07:21 PM   #19
Modified
Philosopher
 
Modified's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,985
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
Standing high jump would be a new sport.
It was an Olympic sport from 1900 to 1912.
Modified is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2016, 03:05 AM   #20
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 27,130
One thing you have all overlooked is that if you have the events inside the dome the air pressure may be different. It could be 100% oxygen and no nitrogen. That means air resistance would be a lot less.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2016, 07:06 AM   #21
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One thing you have all overlooked is that if you have the events inside the dome the air pressure may be different. It could be 100% oxygen and no nitrogen. That means air resistance would be a lot less.
Unlikely scenario. Google "Apollo 1"
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2016, 01:54 PM   #22
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 27,130
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Unlikely scenario. Google "Apollo 1"
The total air pressure would be 20% of earth's air pressure at sea level. In Apollo 1 air pressure was 100% and 100% oxygen. This means that the fire risk is the same as on Earth. Yet air resistance would be a lot less.

Sorry I did not specify the air pressure. I thought that would be obvious.

Edit. In fact I did specify a different air pressure in my original post.
__________________
This signature is for rent.

Last edited by rjh01; 27th November 2016 at 01:56 PM.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2016, 02:46 PM   #23
alexi_drago
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,353
Traction force before slipping will be lower so will reduce acceleration on sprint starts, jumps, throwing events. Wouldn't the fact that while running, when you have both feet off the ground your downward acceleration is lower so you'd have less time with contact with the ground to propel youself forward?
__________________
The secret NASA doesn't want you to know - God makes rockets work in space.
alexi_drago is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th November 2016, 04:12 PM   #24
John Jones
Penultimate Amazing
 
John Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
Unlikely scenario. Google "Apollo 1"
Ouch!
John Jones is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 03:31 AM   #25
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,988
Originally Posted by wogoga View Post
Let us assume a huge sports hall on the moon with terrestrial air inside.
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
One thing you have all overlooked is that if you have the events inside the dome the air pressure may be different. It could be 100% oxygen and no nitrogen. That means air resistance would be a lot less.
"Terrestrial air" seems pretty clear to me.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 03:53 AM   #26
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,343
Originally Posted by FenerFan View Post
What about archery and shooting events? I imagine the flights of the arrows and projectiles would be much different, or maybe not. I have no clue.
Arrows wouldn't work in a vacuum, unless you developed a rifled bow (ŕ la 'Robin Hood FRS').
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 03:56 AM   #27
Roboramma
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Shanghai
Posts: 14,988
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Arrows wouldn't work in a vacuum, unless you developed a rifled bow (ŕ la 'Robin Hood FRS').
What would happen to them? I imagine you're saying they'd be very inaccurate, which makes sense. But not that they wouldn't shoot.
__________________
"... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."
Isaac Asimov
Roboramma is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 04:12 AM   #28
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,343
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
What would happen to them? I imagine you're saying they'd be very inaccurate, which makes sense. But not that they wouldn't shoot.
Oh they'd shoot, just not very well. Arrows, quarrels, darts et cetera are drag-stabilised and require an atmosphere to function. The arrow would rapidly destabilise and start tumbling end-over-end.

The fletchings (the feather bits at the back of an arrow to non-archers ) cause drag which opposes movement of the arrow from it's line of flight. They may (but aren't always) angled to cause a slight, slow, spin in the arrow creating gyroscopic stability also. When fired an arrow flexes, due to bending and compression by the firing, which the fletchings compensate for; without their contribution the arrow would begin to rotate on it's long axis.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 04:17 AM   #29
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,193
Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
What would happen to them? I imagine you're saying they'd be very inaccurate, which makes sense. But not that they wouldn't shoot.
Yup, In a word, fletching. It stabilises an arrows flight in air. In a vacuum, there would be no such effect.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 04:40 AM   #30
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 26,343
Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Yup, In a word, fletching. It stabilises an arrows flight in air. In a vacuum, there would be no such effect.
Hence the development of a rifled bow.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 12:24 PM   #31
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
Originally Posted by rjh01 View Post
The total air pressure would be 20% of earth's air pressure at sea level. In Apollo 1 air pressure was 100% and 100% oxygen. This means that the fire risk is the same as on Earth. Yet air resistance would be a lot less.

Sorry I did not specify the air pressure. I thought that would be obvious.

Edit. In fact I did specify a different air pressure in my original post.
If air presure was 20% that of Earth sea level the contestents would not be running and jumping. They'd be gasping for air. The summit of Mt. Everest is about 33% the air pressure of sea level.
The dome is a sealed container. The air pressure can be whatever you want it to be.
And no, Apollo's 100% oxygen level meant there was 5 times as much oxygen per litre of atmosphere in the capsule than on Earth and thus fires could burn fuel 5 times faster, thus release as much heat 5 times faster, and spread faster than on Earth.

Normal Earth sea level atmosphere is about 20% oxygen and near 80% nitrogen.

Last edited by jaydeehess; 28th November 2016 at 12:27 PM.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 12:36 PM   #32
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,193
Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Hence the development of a rifled bow.
Remember my post about the seagulls? Good.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 12:39 PM   #33
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
If air presure was 20% that of Earth sea level the contestents would not be running and jumping. They'd be gasping for air. The summit of Mt. Everest is about 33% the air pressure of sea level.
The dome is a sealed container. The air pressure can be whatever you want it to be.
And no, Apollo's 100% oxygen level meant there was 5 times as much oxygen per litre of atmosphere in the capsule than on Earth and thus fires could burn fuel 5 times faster, thus release as much heat 5 times faster, and spread faster than on Earth.

Normal Earth sea level atmosphere is about 20% oxygen and near 80% nitrogen.
The partial pressure of oxygen in earth atmosphere at 15psi is something like 4.5psi. Been awhile since I've had to wikibash a moonbat so I don't remember the exact figures and I'm rounding, but it's in that neighborhood. So the Apollo vehicles were designed to contain a full-oxygen environment at 4-5 psi above ambient, in this case vacuum of space. For reasons best discussed elsewhere, NASA engineers ran the first "plugs out" test of the vehicle, meaning disconnected from all external supply, with pure oxygen at 15psi.

At that fuel-air ratio Velcro (high surface area per weigh) became almost a low explosive. A "rich" burn has high fuel per unit of air, a "lean" burn has low fuel per unit of air. Burning rich is cooler than burning lean, because unburned fuel carries away both reaction heat and unreleased chemical energy, where lean combustion releases ALL the chemical heat from a fuel. With sea-level pressure pure oxygen, it was a very lean burn environment.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 01:21 PM   #34
rjh01
Gentleman of leisure
Tagger
 
rjh01's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Flying around in the sky
Posts: 27,130
Originally Posted by jaydeehess View Post
If air presure was 20% that of Earth sea level the contestents would not be running and jumping. They'd be gasping for air. The summit of Mt. Everest is about 33% the air pressure of sea level.
The dome is a sealed container. The air pressure can be whatever you want it to be.
And no, Apollo's 100% oxygen level meant there was 5 times as much oxygen per litre of atmosphere in the capsule than on Earth and thus fires could burn fuel 5 times faster, thus release as much heat 5 times faster, and spread faster than on Earth.

Normal Earth sea level atmosphere is about 20% oxygen and near 80% nitrogen.
Again your post is rubbish. The Earth's atmosphere is 20% oxygen. On the moon you would have the same partial pressure of oxygen as Earth, the difference is that there would not be the nitrogen in the atmosphere. So 100% oxygen. Total air pressure of 20% of Earth's.

Even your bit about Apollo is wrong. The fire STARTED partly because it was 1 full atmosphere of pressure of oxygen. Some wires were hot and in contact with something that could burn. This would not normally pose a problem, but with the extra oxygen it burned.
__________________
This signature is for rent.
rjh01 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 02:25 PM   #35
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Yes. The fire conditions aboard Apollo1 did not accurately replicate the conditions the craft would experience in use, a low-pressure pure oxygen environment.

I was being flippant and incorrect when referring upthread to Apollo1, forgetting how few around here anymore know the deeper details of both the event and the environmental conditions around it.

On the moon they might use pure oxygen, but not likely. It's less robust for a habitat in ways we could discuss elsewhere. More likely, they'll use full sea level pressure because it's better at pushing all the vacuum out of the dome and onto the searing radiation hell of the lunar deathscape.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 02:47 PM   #36
Spindrift
Time Person of the Year, 2006
 
Spindrift's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Right here!
Posts: 19,246
Assuming earth-like atmosphere with lunar gravity, for the throwing events they would most likely change the implements otherwise the area needed for the competition would be enormous. Back in the 1980's they redesigned the javelin, one of the reasons was the they were throwing too far 100M+ and stadiums were not big enough if the throws got much longer. For the shot put, they might from from 16 lbs to 100 lbs.

For the jumping events, the length of the pole could be unwieldy for the vaulter to lift and run with.

Also all the events depend on speed as well as power. Can a similar velocity be achieved on the moon?
__________________
I've always believed that cluelessness evolved as an adaptation to allow the truly appalling to live with themselves. - G. B. Trudeau
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. - Kay, Men in Black.
Enjoy every sandwich. - Warren Zevon
Spindrift is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 02:50 PM   #37
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
The astronauts all discovered a loping, hopping gait that maximized traction on push off for further travel per step. I think earth-type running would not be used.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 03:09 PM   #38
abaddon
Penultimate Amazing
 
abaddon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Republic of Ireland
Posts: 23,193
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
The astronauts all discovered a loping, hopping gait that maximized traction on push off for further travel per step. I think earth-type running would not be used.
The astronauts had to figure it out the hard way. Woo merchants do not like that.
__________________
Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive?


...love and buttercakes...
abaddon is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 03:38 PM   #39
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Have you seen the Mythbusters episode on the topic? Adam gets to try the loping hop in the Vomit Comet, and reported it was every bit as natural and effective in that gravity as walking normally is normally.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th November 2016, 04:18 PM   #40
jaydeehess
Penultimate Amazing
 
jaydeehess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 40 miles north of the border
Posts: 20,843
Originally Posted by Jrrarglblarg View Post
I was being flippant and incorrect when referring upthread to Apollo1, forgetting how few around here anymore know the deeper details of both the event and the environmental conditions around it.

On the moon they might use pure oxygen, but not likely. It's less robust for a habitat in ways we could discuss elsewhere. More likely, they'll use full sea level pressure because it's better at pushing all the vacuum out of the dome and onto the searing radiation hell of the lunar deathscape.
Searing the hell out of a ejected vaccum..........
Hey, don't go apolgizing for being flippant, then go all flippant again in the next paragraph.

It confuses some of us.

Of course everyone knows that increasing the air pressure will increase the gravity in the dome too.
jaydeehess is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Science, Mathematics, Medicine, and Technology

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:32 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.