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Old 12th September 2017, 10:28 AM   #2881
Craig B
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I'm against the unelected House of Lords. But you're letting your prejudice show again - it's the good ole English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish democracy that props up the good ole English, Welsh, Scottish, and Northern Irish House of Lords.
One of my close collateral Ancestors, John Crosbie, was in fact a member of the Irish House of Lords, as Earl of Glandore, but it was abolished in 1801 and he became a member of Westminster Lords. He was indeed elected - as a "representative peer" by the other Irish Lords. Says wiki:
... he was elected for both Tralee and Ardfert. He chose to sit for the latter, and held the seat until 1781, when he succeeded his father in the earldom and entered the Irish House of Lords. He was sworn of the Irish Privy Council in 1785. In 1789, he was appointed Joint Master of the Rolls in Ireland alongside the Earl of Carysfort. They both held the post until 1801. In 1800, he was elected as one of the 28 original Irish Representative Peers to sit in the House of Lords.
But I really can't see how democracy in the minority countries of the UK props up English Lords nowadays, whatever may have been the arrangement in 1801.
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Old 12th September 2017, 10:32 AM   #2882
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
What do you mean?
The scots and the NI want nothing to do with it.

The UK will ultimately pass just like the "Empire" and I don't care if they die in the fire of their own creation.

Is that clear enough?
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:16 AM   #2883
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Correct. We'll get a chance to vote the Tories out of office in five years or less. Those countries remaining in the EU have no such opportunity to get rid of their lousy and corrupt leaders.
Which leaders? We don't even have a government at the moment. With some luck, the coalition talks are finalized before the next scheduled elections.

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
But it's strange that they have no problem with unelected (by voters) leaders like Tusk and Junker.
Oh, that red herring again. No, we didn't vote for the members of the Commission. But we did vote for the MEPs who agreed to their appointment. And you didn't vote in 2015 for May either. You never vote for the cabinet. You can only be reasonably sure that the leader of the plurality party becomes MP, for the first months after the election, but after that all bets are off, and you have no idea who will fill the rest of the cabinet.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:24 AM   #2884
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Which leaders? We don't even have a government at the moment. With some luck, the coalition talks are finalized before the next scheduled elections.


Oh, that red herring again. No, we didn't vote for the members of the Commission. But we did vote for the MEPs who agreed to their appointment. And you didn't vote in 2015 for May either. You never vote for the cabinet. You can only be reasonably sure that the leader of the plurality party becomes MP, for the first months after the election, but after that all bets are off, and you have no idea who will fill the rest of the cabinet.
You're missing the point. We (the UK) can't decide the leaders of the EU - even if the selection of the leaders was more democratic - because we'll be outvoted by the Germans, French, Italians, and so on. It's the same problem the Scottish Nationalists have with being outvoted by the more numerous English (plus Welsh and NI) and the same reason for wanting to leave the respective unions.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:28 AM   #2885
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
The scots and the NI want nothing to do with it.

The UK will ultimately pass just like the "Empire" and I don't care if they die in the fire of their own creation.

Is that clear enough?
No. You replied to my post, "Guess again", implying I'd got something wrong, but you now (probably after vainly searching to try to prove I was wrong) come back with this non sequitur.

There are plenty of Scottish and Northern Irish members of the House of Lords, so you are clearly wrong about them 'wanting nothing to do with it'.

Anyway, it's nice to know that I was right.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:29 AM   #2886
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I never claimed otherwise. It's because the EU wants to go in a different direction to the majority of UK voters, that the UK has sensibly made the decision to leave. The UK isn't demanding that the EU change its policies - we recognize that we're outvoted by the other European countries that have different views to our own, so we no longer want to be part of it.

It's exactly the same with the SNP wanting to leave the UK. The only difference is that a a majority of the UK did vote to leave the EU, while the majority of Scots voted in favour of remaining in the UK.
Except the EU and the democratically UK government were in agreement on almost every single matter ever put to a vote in the EU. So what different direction are you talking about?
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:40 AM   #2887
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A country voting with the majority in the EU is often the result of that country realizing that it has no chance of achieving its own desired result and so voting along with the majority. It's futile in the EU to vote against an obvious overwhelming majority - that just brands you as a 'troublemaker' - often it's better to avoid making waves in the hope that might help you in some future vote where the outcome is more finely balanced.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:48 AM   #2888
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
A country voting with the majority in the EU is often the result of that country realizing that it has no chance of achieving its own desired result and so voting along with the majority. It's futile in the EU to vote against an obvious overwhelming majority - that just brands you as a 'troublemaker' - often it's better to avoid making waves in the hope that might help you in some future vote where the outcome is more finely balanced.
Blah blah blah. What different direction are you talking about? What policies did the UK government object to? The majority of the democratically elected government wanted to stay in the EU?
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:53 AM   #2889
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. You replied to my post, "Guess again", implying I'd got something wrong, but you now (probably after vainly searching to try to prove I was wrong) come back with this non sequitur.

There are plenty of Scottish and Northern Irish members of the House of Lords, so you are clearly wrong about them 'wanting nothing to do with it'.

Anyway, it's nice to know that I was right.
Well at least you know it, if nobody else does. Yes, there are plenty of Scottish and N Irish lords. But what has that to do with the democracy of the governments of these countries?
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Old 12th September 2017, 12:18 PM   #2890
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You're missing the point. We (the UK) can't decide the leaders of the EU - even if the selection of the leaders was more democratic - because we'll be outvoted by the Germans, French, Italians, and so on. It's the same problem the Scottish Nationalists have with being outvoted by the more numerous English (plus Welsh and NI) and the same reason for wanting to leave the respective unions.
You're ensured of one British Commissioner, and on an important post as well. How many Welsh, Scottish or NI politicians are now in the British cabinet?

Furthermore, it's disingenuous to picture it as UK vs. the rest of the EU. The selection of the individual Commissioners is a political horse trading where the political colours-du-jour of the respective governments are far more important than some nebulous alliances between states.
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Old 12th September 2017, 12:20 PM   #2891
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
A country voting with the majority in the EU is often the result of that country realizing that it has no chance of achieving its own desired result and so voting along with the majority. It's futile in the EU to vote against an obvious overwhelming majority - that just brands you as a 'troublemaker' - often it's better to avoid making waves in the hope that might help you in some future vote where the outcome is more finely balanced.
How in Hades' name could the UK nowadays (or say two years ago) be newly branded as troublemaker in the EU context?
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Old 12th September 2017, 01:25 PM   #2892
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
Not unless you consider Northumbria part of Scotland. Then again with a name like NorthUmbria, maybe it is part of Italy

The Scots could annex it, I guess.
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Old 12th September 2017, 02:08 PM   #2893
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The Scots could annex it, I guess.
Newcastle United would certainly spice up the Celtic/Rangers duopoly in the Scottish Premiership.
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Old 12th September 2017, 03:37 PM   #2894
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Poor Dennis SkinnerWP has lost it, but think his motive is the anti capitalist ideology discussed already, whereby people vote against the EU because it is a capitalist club.
His own words:

https://skwawkbox.org/2017/09/12/exc...-his-euw-vote/

Fair enough if he's representing the views of his constituents but does he consult them every time he votes in the Commons?
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Old 12th September 2017, 03:52 PM   #2895
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Newcastle United would certainly spice up the Celtic/Rangers duopoly in the Scottish Premiership.
Did you forget Queen of the South?
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Old 12th September 2017, 04:41 PM   #2896
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And the Tories get their second important vote for implementing the Great Repeal Bill. The Independent:
Quote:
With parliament needing to change, amend or import wholesale thousands of laws and regulation to prepare the UK for its exit from the European Union, the EU Withdrawal Bill has been designed to allow for new laws and regulations to be passed via controversial legislative device called a statutory instrument, which are debated in tiny standing committees.

But the government has now voted to give itself a majority on the little known Committee of Selection, which decides the make up of those committees, and in so doing has seized control of the whole process.
So whatever parliamentary oversight there is over its implementation, is done in committees that are majority controlled by the Tories.
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Old 12th September 2017, 11:59 PM   #2897
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
And the Tories get their second important vote for implementing the Great Repeal Bill. The Independent:

So whatever parliamentary oversight there is over its implementation, is done in committees that are majority controlled by the Tories.
But remember, according to Brexiteers, it's the EU that has the democratic deficit not the UK where:
  • The head of state is an hereditary position
  • The upper chamber of parliament is a mixture of hereditary and appointed members
  • The government polled 42%
  • The government bought enough votes for an undisclosed sum from the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) to form a majority
  • The minority government intends to give itself the majority on all committees

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Old 13th September 2017, 12:11 AM   #2898
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
But remember, according to Brexiteers, it's the EU that has the democratic deficit not the UK where:
  • The head of state is an hereditary position
  • The upper chamber of parliament is a mixture of hereditary and appointed members
  • The government polled 42%
  • The government bought enough votes for an undisclosed sum from the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) to form a majority
  • The minority government intends to give itself the majority on all committees

I'm starting to think the Brexiteers were misunderstood with this democratic deficit argument. What they meant was that the EU is too democratic to their tastes and they perfer an easier system, like the one in Russia - one leader, one party, one state, that sort of thing.

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Old 13th September 2017, 12:27 AM   #2899
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
But remember, according to Brexiteers, it's the EU that has the democratic deficit not the UK where:
  • The head of state is an hereditary position
  • The upper chamber of parliament is a mixture of hereditary and appointed members
  • The government polled 42%
  • The government bought enough votes for an undisclosed sum from the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) to form a majority
  • The minority government intends to give itself the majority on all committees

Brexit looking more and more like a coup by the Tory hard right and a blatant power grab. God help us.
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:51 AM   #2900
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Originally Posted by McHrozni View Post
I'm starting to think the Brexiteers were misunderstood with this democratic deficit argument. What they meant was that the EU is too democratic to their tastes and they perfer an easier system, like the one in Russia - one leader, one party, one state, that sort of thing.

McHrozni
It seems that they're happy with whatever system is in force so long as they get *exactly* what they want.

The whole "poor Britain never getting its way in Europe" meme is a great example of that. They pretend that the EU is foisting its laws on the UK all the time when in fact 95% of the time the UK votes in favour of legislation and abstaining in 3% of cases. Only in 2% of cases did a vote pass council against UK wishes and even then, the extensive opt-outs that successive UK governments have negotiated, means that the impact is even lower than that.

The UK in general, and Brexiteers in particular, are the spoiled brats of the EU.
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:42 AM   #2901
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
But remember, according to Brexiteers, it's the EU that has the democratic deficit not the UK where:
  • The head of state is an hereditary position
  • The upper chamber of parliament is a mixture of hereditary and appointed members
  • The government polled 42%
  • The government bought enough votes for an undisclosed sum from the DUP (a.k.a. the Protestant Taliban) to form a majority
  • The minority government intends to give itself the majority on all committees

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Old 13th September 2017, 03:15 AM   #2902
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More Brexit bits and pieces.

Former Brexit minster Lord Bridges asks the UK to be honest about the [large] scale and complexity of Brexit.

Quote:
A former Brexit minister has said the UK must be "honest" about the "complexity and scale" of leaving the EU.

Lord Bridges also urged honesty about the lack of time to reach agreement with the EU over the UK's withdrawal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41249129

In contrast to Liam Fox who reckons it's easy-peasy

Meanwhile Jean-Claude Juncker is unsurprisingly saying that the UK will regret Brexit.

Quote:
The UK will "soon regret" leaving the EU, European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has said.

Mr Juncker told the European Parliament that Brexit would be a "sad, tragic" moment for the EU but that the 27-member union would "move on".

"Brexit is not the future of Europe. It is not the be all and end all."
Meanwhile Nigel Farage is continuing to spread lies about the EU

Quote:
Mr Farage, the best known campaigner in the Parliament for the UK's withdrawal from the EU, attacked what he said were "truly worrying" plans to create a single president of the EU, an EU finance minister and a "strong EU army in a militarised Europe".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41252653
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Old 13th September 2017, 03:55 AM   #2903
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Why does he give a toss anymore?
Since we're apparently leaving, why does he care what the other 27 states do?
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Old 13th September 2017, 04:22 AM   #2904
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Why does he give a toss anymore?
Since we're apparently leaving, why does he care what the other 27 states do?
Maybe he isn't confident that the Brexit decision won't be turned back? And his being an MEP gives him a fig-leaf that it's his "duty" to comment on EU policy.
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:48 AM   #2905
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Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Why does he give a toss anymore?
Since we're apparently leaving, why does he care what the other 27 states do?
IMO he's uncomfortable with the idea of an EU which is working towards fuller integration on the grounds that it'll be more difficult for the UK to attempt to "divide and conquer" and it'll be more painfully apparent what the UK is missing out on.
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Old 13th September 2017, 05:55 AM   #2906
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO he's uncomfortable with the idea of an EU which is working towards fuller integration on the grounds that it'll be more difficult for the UK to attempt to "divide and conquer" and it'll be more painfully apparent what the UK is missing out on.
The man's just a complete git...
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Old 13th September 2017, 09:10 AM   #2907
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
It's exactly the same with the SNP wanting to leave the UK. The only difference is that a a majority of the UK did vote to leave the EU, while the majority of Scots voted in favour of remaining in the UK.
But many of those Scots voted to remain in the UK because they were told they'd remain in the EU if they did so. Is it really apt to compare those two votes considering the circumstances around those votes?

Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
You're missing the point. We (the UK) can't decide the leaders of the EU - even if the selection of the leaders was more democratic - because we'll be outvoted by the Germans, French, Italians, and so on. It's the same problem the Scottish Nationalists have with being outvoted by the more numerous English (plus Welsh and NI) and the same reason for wanting to leave the respective unions.
Are you saying the issue you have with the EU is that the UK doesn't hold disproportionate power compared to the other EU members? Because that certainly seems to be what you're saying.
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Old 13th September 2017, 10:13 AM   #2908
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
Are you saying the issue you have with the EU is that the UK doesn't hold disproportionate power compared to the other EU members? Because that certainly seems to be what you're saying.
No. I have no idea how you could read what I wrote and think that was what I was saying.

I don't expect the UK to hold any disproportionate power over the EU and, as I already said, the best thing the UK can do under the circumstances is exactly what the UK is doing - leaving. It's a shame we didn't leave many years earlier - but we are, belatedly, doing the right thing.
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:13 PM   #2909
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. I have no idea how you could read what I wrote and think that was what I was saying.

I don't expect the UK to hold any disproportionate power over the EU and, as I already said, the best thing the UK can do under the circumstances is exactly what the UK is doing - leaving. It's a shame we didn't leave many years earlier - but we are, belatedly, doing the right thing.
Then you will agree that Scotland would be doing the right thing by seceding from the UK. My experience is that Brexiteers (both Left and Right varieties of that movement) tend also to be strong UK Unionists. You evidently are not. That has gained my attention. Please let me have your comments.
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Old 13th September 2017, 12:29 PM   #2910
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Then you will agree that Scotland would be doing the right thing by seceding from the UK. My experience is that Brexiteers (both Left and Right varieties of that movement) tend also to be strong UK Unionists. You evidently are not. That has gained my attention. Please let me have your comments.
There was a "hilarious" Scottish Tory campaign line that Scottish independence would have been bad for Scotland because it would be stupid to leave its largest market...

I might look for it later
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:38 PM   #2911
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
No. I have no idea how you could read what I wrote and think that was what I was saying.

I don't expect the UK to hold any disproportionate power over the EU and, as I already said, the best thing the UK can do under the circumstances is exactly what the UK is doing - leaving. It's a shame we didn't leave many years earlier - but we are, belatedly, doing the right thing.
Still no example of disagreement between UK and Europe where UK was outvoted by the EU to justify our leaving??
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:40 PM   #2912
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
Then you will agree that Scotland would be doing the right thing by seceding from the UK. My experience is that Brexiteers (both Left and Right varieties of that movement) tend also to be strong UK Unionists. You evidently are not. That has gained my attention. Please let me have your comments.
I'm quite happy for Scotland to secede from the United Kingdom if that is what the Scots want. The same goes for Wales and Northern Ireland.

I suspect though, that it's not what the majority of Scots want: last time they were offered the choice they chose to remain, and I suspect they will choose to remain again, if and when another referendum is allowed.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:48 PM   #2913
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I'm quite happy for Scotland to secede from the United Kingdom if that is what the Scots want. The same goes for Wales and Northern Ireland.

I suspect though, that it's not what the majority of Scots want: last time they were offered the choice they chose to remain, and I suspect they will choose to remain again, if and when another referendum is allowed.
And if that decision or the decision to leave the EU was made because they were lied to then that's just fine as long as you get the results you want, right?
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:55 PM   #2914
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
I'm quite happy for Scotland to secede from the United Kingdom if that is what the Scots want. The same goes for Wales and Northern Ireland.

I suspect though, that it's not what the majority of Scots want: last time they were offered the choice they chose to remain, and I suspect they will choose to remain again, if and when another referendum is allowed.
They were promised the sun, the moon and the stars in devo-max if they would stay in the Union. They were said that the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote stay.

There's been not a whit of extra devolution and now the UK pulls Scotland out of the EU. Both were massive lies.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:57 PM   #2915
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
Still no example of disagreement between UK and Europe where UK was outvoted by the EU to justify our leaving??
There's a fact-checking site here: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/ that discusses the matter reasonably impartially.

As the site points out, each of the times the UK was outvoted was most likely very important to some people - even though the majority of the UK population probably didn't care (or even know) about the vote.

The reason the majority of UK voters were unhappy with the EU (IMO) is not so much to do with the UK being outvoted in the EU on a few occasions - rather it was the creeping loss of control to the EU. The UK governments of whatever flavour at the time may well have voted in favour of some measures, but that doesn't mean that their decisions were supported by a majority of UK voters.
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Old 13th September 2017, 01:58 PM   #2916
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
They were promised the sun, the moon and the stars in devo-max if they would stay in the Union. They were said that the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote stay.

There's been not a whit of extra devolution and now the UK pulls Scotland out of the EU. Both were massive lies.
And none of the powers grabbed back from the EU are being devolved and we already see the fomenting of a move to abolish the devolved parliament completely as the odious britnats keep pushing their small-minded little Englander agenda.
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:04 PM   #2917
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
There's a fact-checking site here: https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/ that discusses the matter reasonably impartially.

As the site points out, each of the times the UK was outvoted was most likely very important to some people - even though the majority of the UK population probably didn't care (or even know) about the vote.

The reason the majority of UK voters were unhappy with the EU (IMO) is not so much to do with the UK being outvoted in the EU on a few occasions - rather it was the creeping loss of control to the EU. The UK governments of whatever flavour at the time may well have voted in favour of some measures, but that doesn't mean that their decisions were supported by a majority of UK voters.
So basically the was no reason for it other than feels and your argument before was just bluster and nonsense? We weren't being outvoted on anything but the people were being convinced by liars that we were to suit their agenda and some fell for it.

The decisions were supposed by the democratically elected government that could have been voted out if the people disagreed with them but they voted for them anyway.
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:04 PM   #2918
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
They were promised the sun, the moon and the stars in devo-max if they would stay in the Union. They were said that the only way for Scotland to remain in the EU was to vote stay.

There's been not a whit of extra devolution and now the UK pulls Scotland out of the EU. Both were massive lies.
Well, it's a shame they were made such lying promises, and a shame that a sufficiency of Scots believed the lies.

You will remember that the government tried also to influence UK voters to remain in the EU - also by telling a pack of lies (IMO). This time the lies were mostly negative - dire threats about how terrible things would be if we dared vote leave. Fortunately (IMO) the majority of UK voters (though not a majority of Scots) were smart enough to see through the lies and vote to leave anyway.

Note the IMO: "In my opinion" qualifiers. I don't doubt that your opinion will be different to mine - and different to the majority of UK voters. The vast majority of posters in this thread are from the losing minority "Remain" side.
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:07 PM   #2919
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Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
Well, it's a shame they were made such lying promises, and a shame that a sufficiency of Scots believed the lies.

You will remember that the government tried also to influence UK voters to remain in the EU - also by telling a pack of lies (IMO). This time the lies were mostly negative - dire threats about how terrible things would be if we dared vote leave. Fortunately (IMO) the majority of UK voters (though not a majority of Scots) were smart enough to see through the lies and vote to leave anyway.

Note the IMO: "In my opinion" qualifiers. I don't doubt that your opinion will be different to mine - and different to the majority of UK voters. The vast majority of posters in this thread are from the losing minority "Remain" side.
Imo doesn't mean you can just say any old crap unchallenged. If you want that you have to paint it on a bus apparently.
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Old 13th September 2017, 02:15 PM   #2920
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Originally Posted by Archie Gemmill Goal View Post
So basically the was no reason for it other than feels and your argument before was just bluster and nonsense? We weren't being outvoted on anything but the people were being convinced by liars that we were to suit their agenda and some fell for it.

The decisions were supposed by the democratically elected government that could have been voted out if the people disagreed with them but they voted for them anyway.
I already explained that: A) the way our UK government voted on EU issues often didn't represent the will of the people. B) That sometimes the UK just went along with the crowd because they knew it was futile to vote against a measure that had overwhelming EU support.

There's no need for us to keep going over the same ground. I know you don't like the fact that a majority of UK voters voted to leave the EU, but it remains a fact anyway.

You fall back to saying they only voted that way because they were lied to - but that is naive in my opinion: In every political campaign / election / referendum we are fed truths and lies by both sides. It's up to voters to consider both sides of the argument, decide which things they are told they believe and which they don't and then vote accordingly.

The Scottish Nationalists in this thread think that the Scots didn't vote to leave the UK because the Scots believed the lies of the UK government, and they think that the UK voted to leave the EU because they believed the lies of the Leave campaign.

I offer the alternative (and undoubtedly unpopular in this thread) view that the Scots saw through the lies of the SNP campaigners and so voted remain - and the UK population saw through the lies of the Remain campaign and so voted leave.
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