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Tags loch ness monster , sharks

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Old 3rd February 2017, 01:34 PM   #1
Gilbert Syndrome
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Is Nessie a shark?

Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Remember the Ol' Bigfooter go-to story of the Bigfoots Banana-Peeling Elk Carcasses, at which time I posted the scientific study referencing bear predation, and the process of bears pushing on the carcass with their front feet, and ripping the skin off of the carcass with their jaws, during consumption?

Remember that?

Well, I don't know how i'm going to explain this one as NOT BIGFOOT. Corkscrewed seal carcasses. No way a regular animal could possibly do this to a seal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EgJWFlm9ss
Wasn't a similar spate of corkscrewed seals put down to the Greenland shark not too long ago?

Ah, just clicked the link and yep, Greenland shark. Interestingly, Jeremy Wade once suggested that the Greenland shark was responsible for some "monster sightings" in various places during his Loch Ness episode.


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Old 7th February 2017, 06:35 AM   #2
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Wasn't a similar spate of corkscrewed seals put down to the Greenland shark not too long ago?

Ah, just clicked the link and yep, Greenland shark. Interestingly, Jeremy Wade once suggested that the Greenland shark was responsible for some "monster sightings" in various places during his Loch Ness episode.
There are sharks in Loch Ness?
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Old 7th February 2017, 11:14 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
There are sharks in Loch Ness?
Not necessarily that sharks live in Loch Ness, but that one could've presumably made its way there. The loch is open to the sea, and there are sharks in the UK.

It's not necessarily my theory, but just one that was proposed by Jeremy Wade.
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Old 7th February 2017, 03:29 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Not necessarily that sharks live in Loch Ness, but that one could've presumably made its way there. The loch is open to the sea, and there are sharks in the UK.

It's not necessarily my theory, but just one that was proposed by Jeremy Wade.
Loch Ness is not open to the sea It's a fresh water loch. The river Ness runs for about ten miles from the northern end to the sea right through the middle of Inverness.
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Old 7th February 2017, 10:42 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Loch Ness is not open to the sea It's a fresh water loch. The river Ness runs for about ten miles from the northern end to the sea right through the middle of Inverness.
The sharks may make use of the Caledonian Canal, if they can negotiate the various locks and drawbridges.
The abrupt switch to fresh water might inconvenience their physiology. Only some fish can switch from one to another at will. The Bull sharkWP can do that, but its predeliction for warm waters would make Loch Ness very inhospitable for it.
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:11 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Loch Ness is not open to the sea It's a fresh water loch. The river Ness runs for about ten miles from the northern end to the sea right through the middle of Inverness.
"The Loch itself is connected to the sea via the River Ness and Caledonian Canal - both feeding into the Moray Firth. Loch Ness is 51 feet (16 metres) higher than sea level, is 23 miles long and 1 mile wide."

If you're correct then why would Jeremy Wade bother discussing the idea of a shark entering the loch from the sea? It's been put forward a few times by many people that something could've entered from the sea. It is apparently connected via the river, although, yeah, not directly open to the sea. Still enough room for things to pass through, apparently, which is all that matters.
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Old 8th February 2017, 08:14 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by Craig B View Post
The sharks may make use of the Caledonian Canal, if they can negotiate the various locks and drawbridges.
The abrupt switch to fresh water might inconvenience their physiology. Only some fish can switch from one to another at will. The Bull sharkWP can do that, but its predeliction for warm waters would make Loch Ness very inhospitable for it.
There is some recent evidence to suggest that Greenland sharks may be able to survive for periods in fresh-water, too. Here's an interesting article:

https://www.adn.com/science/article/...rk/2012/05/03/

I know none of that is on topic, so, erm...Bigfoot!
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Old 8th February 2017, 01:42 PM   #8
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I suppose this rare fresh water shark can keap up weirs and waterfalls like a salmon as well?
Or naybe it can operate loch gates on the canal.
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Old 8th February 2017, 02:01 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I suppose this rare fresh water shark can keap up weirs and waterfalls like a salmon as well?
Actually, yes. For years people thought the Lake Nicaragua shark was a distinct species of freshwater shark that was only found Lake Nicaragua. Not so.

"Initially, scientists thought the sharks in the lake belonged to an endemic species, the Lake Nicaragua Shark (Carcharhinus nicaraguensis). In 1961, following comparisons of specimens, the Lake Nicaragua Shark was synonymized with the widespread bull shark (C. leucas),[6] a species also known for entering freshwater elsewhere around the world.[7] It had been presumed that the sharks were trapped within the lake, but this was found to be incorrect in the late 1960s, when it was discovered that they were able to jump along the rapids of the San Juan River (which connects Lake Nicaragua and the Caribbean Sea), almost like salmon.[8] As evidence of these movements, bull sharks tagged inside the lake have later been caught in the open ocean (and vice versa), with some taking as little as 7–11 days to complete the journey.[6]" Wiki

This does not suggest that Greenland sharks do the same, or that they do so into Loch Ness. Greenland sharks are a cold water shark and I would think that such feats of agility and speed over long periods of time would drain their metabolism. I have not read anything about their tolerance to low salinity waters, but we do have them in the St.Lawrence seaway regularly. I can't speak to how far upstream they have been confirmed.

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Old 9th February 2017, 01:19 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I suppose this rare fresh water shark can keap up weirs and waterfalls like a salmon as well?
Or naybe it can operate loch gates on the canal.
Why would it need to operate loch gates on the canal? Sharks have been proposed as a theory for the "monster" for many years, not once has that theory been questioned because of a sharks inability to operate loch gates, lol. Many scientists agree that if there is a particular creature responsible for such sightings, then it comes in from the sea. Sturgeon do this very thing all the time, as do seals and the like.

As I posted earlier, there is mounting evidence to suggest that Greenland sharks can adapt to fresh-water. There is an awful lot that we didn't know about these shark, that we're only just beginning to understand. They were thought of as docile creatures, and that definitely isn't so: https://www.adn.com/science/article/...rk/2012/05/03/

Again, though, this isn't my personal theory.
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Old 9th February 2017, 12:28 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
It's not necessarily my theory, but just one that was proposed by Jeremy Wade.
Jeremy Wade, who I like and who legitimately understands his craft as an angler, says a lot of silly things on his show for dramatic effect.

Really, the whole investigative aspect of River Monsters is for entertainment purposes only as the majority of these "mysteries" have long been solved or never were mysteries to begin with.
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Old 9th February 2017, 03:07 PM   #12
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I think it's possible that the Loch Ness Monster sightings can be attributed to a lone shark but I think it's more likely that it's a group of seals. But I wasn't clear: are the corkscrewed seal carcasses found at Loch Ness?
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:43 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Jeremy Wade, who I like and who legitimately understands his craft as an angler, says a lot of silly things on his show for dramatic effect.

Really, the whole investigative aspect of River Monsters is for entertainment purposes only as the majority of these "mysteries" have long been solved or never were mysteries to begin with.
Oh, I definitely agree. Although I'm not 100% certain he was talking in total jest with re: to the Nessie being a shark thing, but at the same time I understand that he was merely making a conclusion for the sake of the show and doing it in a limited space of time etc.
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:45 AM   #14
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I'd also like to point out that I wasn't intending to start an "is Nessie a shark" thread, lol. I was just discussing the Greenland shark, which kinda led to this. For the record, I don't think Nessie is any one creature, but an amalgamation of things, mis-identifications, hoaxes, etc etc.
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Old 10th February 2017, 12:48 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by TripleScorp View Post
I think it's possible that the Loch Ness Monster sightings can be attributed to a lone shark but I think it's more likely that it's a group of seals. But I wasn't clear: are the corkscrewed seal carcasses found at Loch Ness?
I'd say seals are definitely a part of the whole thing, a lot of seals are often seen in the loch, even recently a widely-published "Nessie-sighting" was most likely a group of seals at play.

No, the corkscrewed seals were from another unrelated discussion, one I've since forgotten!

Also, welcome!
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Old 10th February 2017, 03:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
I'd say seals are definitely a part of the whole thing, a lot of seals are often seen in the loch, even recently a widely-published "Nessie-sighting" was most likely a group of seals at play.

No, the corkscrewed seals were from another unrelated discussion, one I've since forgotten!

Also, welcome!
Thanks for the welcome! I agree that it's probably an amalgam of different occurrences too. Fascinating information on the Greenland shark too. I like reading about sharks in general but have been largely ignorant of the Greenland shark.
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Old 11th February 2017, 12:52 AM   #17
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It is entirely possible that the sightings have multiple explanations. However, they cannot all be attributed to sharks.
Quote:
Modern interest in the monster was sparked by a sighting on 22 July 1933, when George Spicer and his wife saw "a most extraordinary form of animal" cross the road in front of their car.[8] They described the creature as having a large body (about 4 feet (1.2 m) high and 25 feet (8 m) long) and a long, wavy, narrow neck, slightly thicker than an elephant's trunk and as long as the 10–12-foot (3–4 m) width of the road. They saw no limbs.[21] It lurched across the road towards the loch 20 yards (20 m) away, leaving a trail of broken undergrowth in its wake.
Source: Wikipedia.

Sharks are not generally known to lurch across roads.
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Old 11th February 2017, 01:00 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It is entirely possible that the sightings have multiple explanations. However, they cannot all be attributed to sharks.

Source: Wikipedia.

Sharks are not generally known to lurch across roads.
They're certainly not all sharks, if any where actually even sharks at all. My guess would be seals, sturgeon, ducks, logs, wakes, boats, hoaxes, etc etc.

I'd say the Spicer "sighting" was more than likely a crossing seal. There was even a suggestion that some sightings from way back when could be attributed to bathing elephants from a travelling circus. Elephants had been seen bathing in the loch before, intended for public viewing:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4779248.stm

"The circuses used to take the road up to Inverness and allow their animals to have a rest, swim about in the loch and refresh themselves..."
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Old 11th February 2017, 01:03 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It is entirely possible that the sightings have multiple explanations. However, they cannot all be attributed to sharks.

Source: Wikipedia.

Sharks are not generally known to lurch across roads.
It's also entirely possible that this event did not even occur. If it did, then I'd guess it was more than likely a seal, of which there are many around the UK, certainly around Scotland, and definitely around Loch Ness.
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Old 11th February 2017, 01:12 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by TripleScorp View Post
Thanks for the welcome! I agree that it's probably an amalgam of different occurrences too. Fascinating information on the Greenland shark too. I like reading about sharks in general but have been largely ignorant of the Greenland shark.
No problem, mate. Yeah, I love sharks, tbh, would love to swim with them...if I ever grow the cajones!

The Greenland shark is certainly an incredible creature, as are all sharks, and we're only just beginning to really understand them...even then, we're nowhere near to fully grasping them, or any other shark for that matter!

I wouldn't doubt that many sharks could be using the UK as a source of food when they're away from the Mediterranean. Plenty of sightings of Great Whites here, certainly around Cornwall during the Summer, even as recently as last year. Who knows? We definitely get a lot of sharks that we never realized we got, including Mako's, Blue's, Sevengills and more.
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Old 11th February 2017, 08:39 AM   #21
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I don't believe any of those Great White sightings have been confirmed, however, have they? Until one can be confirmed, I'm going to lean more towards mistaken identity involving mako, porbeagle or basking sharks. Porbeagle and mako are in the same family as white sharks, and fleeting glances could easily lead to false identification.

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Old 11th February 2017, 09:01 AM   #22
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So, sharks should come via a densely trafficked river or canal going through inhabited areas, but never ever be observed till they are out in the huge and relatively desolate Loch Ness?

Mmm, I think not.

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Old 11th February 2017, 09:06 AM   #23
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Personally, coming from Scotland, I'm pretty convinced Nessie is the result of 4 or 5 drams of The Balvenie, depending on your tolerance for alcohol.
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Old 11th February 2017, 09:56 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
The Greenland shark is certainly an incredible creature...
And an inedible one as well, the flesh being highly toxic. There's some way of treating it by drying, which I recall Jeremy Wade tasting. He didn't seem to like it much.
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Old 11th February 2017, 10:05 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Parsman View Post
Personally, coming from Scotland, I'm pretty convinced Nessie is the result of 4 or 5 drams of The Balvenie, depending on your tolerance for alcohol.
I think that has always been the most plausible explanation.

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Old 11th February 2017, 11:28 AM   #26
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It's interesting, this tendency to pigeonhole the Loch Ness Monster as this or that. For some, Nessie is a plesiosaur, end of discussion. Others attempt more relatively reasonable explanations (e.g., long-necked seals, sharks, sturgeon, eels), but ultimately they are still pigeonholing (The Loch Ness Monster is X and not Y or Z).

Ronald Binns, in his book The Loch Ness Mystery Solved, demonstrated to my satisfaction that Nessie is many things; outright hoaxes, misidentified waves/animals/flotsam, mirages, exaggerations, folklore, shoddy research, etc. What it is almost certainly not is some prehistoric marine reptile, paranormal manifestation or heretofore undiscovered animal.

The 1911 edition of The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Current English defines a monster as an "imaginary animal composed of incongruous elements". For example a griffin can be considered a monster in that it is part eagle and part lion.

In that sense of the word, believers in Nessie are correct (albeit inadvertently) that Loch Ness truly is inhabited by a "monster". It's just that the "monster" in question is part otter, part boat wake, part toy submarine...
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Old 11th February 2017, 11:51 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
And an inedible one as well, the flesh being highly toxic. There's some way of treating it by drying, which I recall Jeremy Wade tasting. He didn't seem to like it much.
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Old 11th February 2017, 12:26 PM   #28
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Old 11th February 2017, 01:30 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Yak View Post
It is entirely possible that the sightings have multiple explanations. However, they cannot all be attributed to sharks.

Source: Wikipedia.

Sharks are not generally known to lurch across roads.
Well, not normally, but during a Sharknado? Anything's possible!
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Old 11th February 2017, 01:50 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
Ronald Binns, in his book The Loch Ness Mystery Solved, demonstrated to my satisfaction that Nessie is many things; outright hoaxes, misidentified waves/animals/flotsam, mirages, exaggerations, folklore, shoddy research, etc. What it is almost certainly not is some prehistoric marine reptile, paranormal manifestation or heretofore undiscovered animal.
Exactly. The same thing can be applied to all popular cryptid myths, imo.
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Old 11th February 2017, 02:36 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Gilbert Syndrome View Post
Why would it need to operate loch gates on the canal? Sharks have been proposed as a theory for the "monster" for many years, not once has that theory been questioned because of a sharks inability to operate loch gates, lol. Many scientists agree that if there is a particular creature responsible for such sightings, then it comes in from the sea. Sturgeon do this very thing all the time, as do seals and the like.

As I posted earlier, there is mounting evidence to suggest that Greenland sharks can adapt to fresh-water. There is an awful lot that we didn't know about these shark, that we're only just beginning to understand. They were thought of as docile creatures, and that definitely isn't so: https://www.adn.com/science/article/...rk/2012/05/03/

Again, though, this isn't my personal theory.
Well that is true to the extent than humans "came from the sea" but that's about all. Sightings of Nessie comes from people, and a lot of people who have vested interests in the sightings...

Plus from the descriptions of sightings it would be a bloody gigantic shark, which I think might have been spotted swimming from the sea to the loch...
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Old 11th February 2017, 05:47 PM   #32
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The description of the thing crossing the road perfectly matches a large snake that's just swallowed a big meal. I know there aren't any anacondas in Scotland unless someone has transported them there - and that wouldn't be easy...
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Old 13th February 2017, 11:11 AM   #33
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Has the "large eel" theory ever been debunked? It seems somewhat plausible to me that some of the accounts could be attributed to large eels. Obviously not the crossing the road account unless it was a very ambitious eel.
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Old 13th February 2017, 12:39 PM   #34
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The largest eel doesn't seem sufficiently large to constitute a monster. So there's nothing to debunk there.
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Old 13th February 2017, 01:16 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by TripleScorp View Post
Has the "large eel" theory ever been debunked? It seems somewhat plausible to me that some of the accounts could be attributed to large eels. Obviously not the crossing the road account unless it was a very ambitious eel.

There are two different things here:

1) The Nessie myth as such. There is, AFAIK, no hypothesis that can really explain it, other than it is the stuff all myths are made of.

2) Various individual "sightings". Once the myth exists, a lot of things might plausibly explain an individual sighting. Practically any animal above newt size, whisky, fantasy, and, of course, fabrication.

Hans
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Old 13th February 2017, 01:45 PM   #36
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If you are looking at what could have possibly started the myth originally:
This looks like the most credible possibility.

http://doubtfulnews.com/2016/09/late...s-to-be-seals/
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Old 13th February 2017, 02:12 PM   #37
William Parcher
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The photograph seems to show Nessie preying on a seal.
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Old 13th February 2017, 02:33 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The largest eel doesn't seem sufficiently large to constitute a monster. So there's nothing to debunk there.

But that blanket dismissal disregards key flaws in human perception and memory:

1. The difficulty in accurately estimating the size of an object seen at a distance, particularly if the object is set against a backdrop (e.g., a Scottish lake) that makes an accurate estimation even more difficult.

2. The tendency to embellish or exaggerate a story over time, especially if the story brings the storyteller a degree of welcome notoriety. Contrast the Spicers' estimate of the monster's size in early accounts (6-8 feet in length) to what they claimed in later retellings of the same incident (up to 30 feet in length).

Combine with these factors with the (subconscious or otherwise) desire of the eyewitness to join the chosen few who have beheld the legendary Loch Ness Monster, thereby writing themselves into the monster lore.

The supposedly "skeptical" stance that Nessie is one (and only one) of the following: a seal, an otter, a boat wake, an eel, etc., IMO is in its own way every bit as wrong as the "woo" claim that Nessie is a plesiosaur or some strange entity out of pagan myth. There have been too many sightings, or more to the point, too many types of sightings for any single explanation to suffice. This may seem (at first glance) to run counter to Occam's Razor in that it doesn't seem sufficiently simple and elegant, but my claim is that Loch Ness really is inhabited by a "monster" (using the strict definition of the word noted in my previous post) that is...

Originally Posted by JohnG View Post
part otter, part boat wake, part toy submarine...

Despite all my protestations, though, I agree that ultimately "there's nothing to debunk". Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and extraordinary evidence of Nessie is (alas) as nonexistent as Nessie herself.
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Old 13th February 2017, 05:30 PM   #39
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Once a contrivance like an alleged lake monster has been publicized, every unidentified flash, glint or fleeting glimpse from that location becomes a "sighting" amongst the excited onlookers.

Under normal circumstances, nobody confuses a glimpse of an otter or eel with a lake monster. It was just something they didn't see well enough to determine its identity.

So while it's technically true that some "sightings" can probably attributed to these things, it's as a result of people wanting to see a lake monster, not because these ever actually resemble or could be confused with a lake monster.
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Old 13th February 2017, 11:58 PM   #40
Darat
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
There are two different things here:

1) The Nessie myth as such. There is, AFAIK, no hypothesis that can really explain it, other than it is the stuff all myths are made of.

2) Various individual "sightings". Once the myth exists, a lot of things might plausibly explain an individual sighting. Practically any animal above newt size, whisky, fantasy, and, of course, fabrication.

Hans
3) Tourist industry, probably shocking to some folk but there is quite an industry built around the "legend".
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