Big Pharma

tinribmancer

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Thought I'd make a topic about this, since I didn't find one.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Big_Pharma

While the pharmaceutical companies, as shown above, do have a lot to answer for regarding their business practices, some critics of Big Pharma go way, way beyond the realm of well-deserved criticism of these corporations.

The groups that push Big Pharma conspiracies tend to fall into two camps which often overlap: alternative medicine cranks, quacks, and other woo-meisters as well as stock conspiracy theorists. Big Pharma plays the villain in the quack persecution complex as it works tirelessly to suppress their "brilliant cures". The general train of thought behind those who reject evidence-based medicine is that the entirety of medical science (or "Western medicine") is fraudulent and all the studies and experiments are bogus. Any studies showing inefficacy of a treatment are immediately latched onto as "proof" that medical science is bunk by Joseph Mercola and Mike Adams types. Then there are the really cranky cancer conspiracies revolving around the idea that Big Pharma invented the cure for cancer but is covering it up. This is a popular one among raw foodists who believe raw food is "the cure that Big Pharma doesn't want you to know about." There is also a new bunch of fringe theorists, who think that all cancer is a fungus, and that all scientific studies on cancer are therefore frauds. This is all supported by one Italian oncologist, called Tullio Simoncini. Ironically, he is under investigation for fraud and homicide after his treatments killed a woman with breast cancer. Anti-vaxers also live on Big Pharma conspiracy theories. This opens the door for the woo-meisters to peddle their ********, because, you see, they actually care about you while Big Pharma has a profit motive and they don't. Nuh-uh, no profit motive for quackery at all. Just pure all-natural goodness like nature intended, naturally, of course.

The conspiracy theorists generally come from the viewpoint of the relationship between Big Pharma and the government. Usually this involves the use of chemtrails or water fluoridation as mind control substances to prepare us to accept the coming New World Order. Either that or they are being used to intentionally keep us sick so Big Pharma can rake in the dough by causing our illnesses and then selling us the cure. The "cancer industry" conspiracy goes even further, including everybody even tangentially involved with oncology.

Due to the law of crank magnetism, these two groups often merge into an unholy alliance of crankery. This is how sites like Natural News, Rense, and that paragon of crankery, Whale.to are born.

Brave Maverick Doctor

The Brave Maverick Doctor is a part of the mythos of woo, anti-science and conspiracist thinking generally.

In the usual scenario a "brave maverick doctor" invents a miracle cure for cancer, AIDS, autism, chronic Lyme disease, malaria and toe fungus, but this is suppressed by evil Big Pharma and he is hounded by Big Pharma Shills who cause trouble with advertising and medical regulators on the wholly spurious grounds that nobody else in the entire world has ever managed to duplicate the effect of the miracle cure.

Large numbers of Brave Maverick Doctors are not doctors at all — many claim the title ND, which stands for "Not a Doctor".

For examples, see:

BX Protocol
Burzynski clinic
Miracle Mineral Solution

This is one of my CTer's YT friends. He's called Mr Grimv.

About Mr Grimv:

Hi folks,
This channel is mainly dedicated to uncovering conspiracies dealing with big pharma, big agra, both world and local politics, boitech firms like Monsanto, True cosmology , the errors in science etc.. Enjoy!

Seems that he edited his introduction page, since it used to mention that he's a "Expert on Big Pharma".

His discussion page is also filled with lots of lulz.

From what I've gathered, Big Pharma through a CTer's viewpoint means:

-Evil doctors giving you placebo's
-Evil doctors making you even sicker than you already are/making you sick
-Most of the **** anti-vaxers (like Le Donald) believe in
-Shadow Gobmints being the evil Masterminds behind it all (for whatever reason) together with "The Powers That Be" (I presume that's The Illuminati?)...

Question I would like to ask is: Where did this "Evil Big Pharma" start to begin with?
 
Man, I love the Renaissance Man thing he's got going on here:

big pharma, big agra, both world and local politics, boitech firms like Monsanto, True cosmology


In the real world, each of these areas of study would require literally years of higher education to even get your foot in the door as a new hire, but this guy? He not only understands them all, he understands them better than the experts, he understands them well enough to prove all the experts wrong!

Man, what a genius!

:rolleyes:
 
It's a subset of anti-corporatism. It's probably been around since "big pharma" first emerged.

One spin off seems to be on the price-gouging front. Big Pharma exploiting profit margins on patented drugs.

Here's one that showed up on MSN today: http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/comp...muscular-dystrophy-drug/ar-AAmO5wW?li=BBnb7Kz

"Marathon Pharmaceuticals LLC says it will charge $89,000 annually in the U.S. for a decades-old steroidal drug that was approved for U.S. sale for the first time on Thursday, a price that is as much as 70 times higher than drug’s price overseas."
 
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Problem with the Big Pharma nonsense it that it ignores the things that Large Pharmatics companies can be rightly criticized for, and instead goes after paranoid nonsense.
The bit about Big Pharma surpressing a cure for cancer is really funny. A real cure for cancer would make the company holding the patent profits that the greediest company could not dream of.
 
Man, I love the Renaissance Man thing he's got going on here:

In the real world, each of these areas of study would require literally years of higher education to even get your foot in the door as a new hire, but this guy? He not only understands them all, he understands them better than the experts, he understands them well enough to prove all the experts wrong!

... but not well enough to spell 'biotech', apparently.
 
I strongly and rationally suggest In the Pipeline - a chem/pharmacy blog by a real chemist named Derek Lowe.

This is not the first time I have suggested that!!! My favorite parts are in the sections on
Things I won't work with and Things I won't do.
 
Derek, by the by, is more or less Republican but not an ******* republicker about it!!!!!!
 
Problem with the Big Pharma nonsense it that it ignores the things that Large Pharmatics companies can be rightly criticized for, and instead goes after paranoid nonsense.
The bit about Big Pharma surpressing a cure for cancer is really funny. A real cure for cancer would make the company holding the patent profits that the greediest company could not dream of.

This is exactly how I feel too. "Big pharma" (and even little pharma) companies have much negative that can be said about them. But also some positive. They are neither the devil nor god- they are corporate entities with the inevitable mix of honest business, some pride as to their products, some legal money grubbing, and some illegal or even immoral behavior and policies. Some companies are better than others (sometimes much better than others). Some are immoral bottom feeders trying to exploit desperately ill people for every cent they can get by selling products at huge profit margins that were purchased from others without incurring any development costs. Other companies, in contrast, take large financial risks investing in research and development, losing money on many failed drugs and therefore requiring some form of higher income from the drugs that do succeed (and yes, they want to make a profit too). Each is composed of people, many of whom have high goals and motivations and truly wish to help sick people, others who just want a salary, and yet others who are sneaky and untrustworthy and would do anything to advance their own careers. Just like almost any other organization.

Why must they be all good? Or all bad? And why must there be a conspiracy? Is it impossible for people to simply recognize the reality without gross exaggeration and fantasy?

As I mentioned in other threads, my own continued existence has been dependent on the availability of some very expensive drugs that were developed by "big pharm" in the past 15 years- I am pleased that they did develop these drugs (and that I have insurance that allows me to pay for them). These were truly new and effective drugs, not repackagings of old established ones. I recognize that the actual raw cost of making these drugs is a tiny fraction of what I pay for them. Certainly the high retail cost of these drugs greatly complicates/restricts their general availability and imposes a massive financial burden on those with poorer insurance and lower incomes than myself. Prices are cheaper outside of the USA. So at one level we in the USA are being gouged! Yes, but these same companies invested in a lot of failed drugs over the same period of time, so my "successful" drugs have been, in part, priced to help pay for the failed ones. How does it really balance out, and are the companies overall nonetheless making huge unfair profits under the circumstances? There are many ways to do the bookkeeping and as I see it no simple way to determine "the truth." There is no one truth here- it all depends on many complicated issues, including possible future legal exposure costs, the positioning of the companies for possible future research endeavors, etc.

Just to make it clear- I do think that big pharm, like big oil, often plays fast and loose so as to make bigger profits. I don't love them or blindly trust them- but I am happy at least for what some of them do some of the time.

The drug pricing, clinical trial costs, tax breaks, financial structuring, and business models of these companies has led to some important successes and to some outright failures and/or horrors. Just one example- everyone agrees that the development of antibiotic resistance by microbial pathogens is approaching a worldwide health crisis. Yet the economics of developing new drugs to counteract this crisis leaves companies very little incentive to do so. It may take many millions to develop new antibiotics to overcome this resistance problem, and many prospective drug candidates will ultimately prove unsuccessful. And even once a successful drug is developed, people are likely to take it for only a week or two to treat an infection, so how much would a company have to charge per pill to make back its investment? Even more so, a new antibiotic that overcomes resistance to existing drugs would be reserved for only the most rare, resistant cases- one would never use it routinely (which would raise the risk of microbes development resistance to the new drug). The company would have to charge even more per pill when it was used, right?

I don't know precisely how to fix it, but some new approaches need to be implemented for both the sake of the patients and to reflect the need to finance the research and incentivize making the drugs available in practice.

I too have heard about the secret cancer cure. Having cancer myself, I find this claim both amusing and disturbing. Like you, I usually just ask the person making the claim: how much would people be willing to pay for a completely effective and easy cure, versus the treatments currently available? The person advocating the conspiracy has never been able to come up with a good answer.
 
Problem with the Big Pharma nonsense it that it ignores the things that Large Pharmatics companies can be rightly criticized for, and instead goes after paranoid nonsense.
The bit about Big Pharma surpressing a cure for cancer is really funny. A real cure for cancer would make the company holding the patent profits that the greediest company could not dream of.


The conspiracy theory also ignores the existence of socialised medical systems, and charities that fund medical research.
 
The conspiracy theory also ignores the existence of socialised medical systems, and charities that fund medical research.

Well living in a socialized medicine place is no challenge for conspiracy theorists.

In Canada our regulatory agencies may be legislated to begin to put "natural remedies" through more stringent evidence-based standards or require them to be labelled less dishonestly.

Immediately when legislation of this type is proffered there is the same reaction you would see in the US to the FDA discussing similar things - oh look the government is in the pocket of BIg Pharma and trying to take out the competition through regulations, your health freedom is at stake!

Socialized medicine just means the government is more involved in price setting and supply chains and there might be lower prices for drugs because of it. From a "Big Pharma" perspective though the fact the government is involved doesn't mean conspiracy theories about corporatism go away - the government just because the willing whore for the corporate money, doing their bidding and fighting against the little guy and his ancient chinese remedies.

As a Canadian I can tell you the Big Pharma conspiracy theory is just as big a deal up here. We also have a thriving industry of naturopaths and supplement sellers which is likely to be a good indicator of how abundant these ideas might be. The Big Pharma conspiracy theory is essentially the marketing campaign of other corporate interests.

EDIT: the other place where we see "conspiracy theory as marketing campaign" and very similar dynamics is the Big Ag vs Big Organic battle and the anti-GMO conspiracy/marketing campaign of Big Organic.
 
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Problem with the Big Pharma nonsense it that it ignores the things that Large Pharmatics companies can be rightly criticized for, and instead goes after paranoid nonsense.
The bit about Big Pharma surpressing a cure for cancer is really funny. A real cure for cancer would make the company holding the patent profits that the greediest company could not dream of.



The usual argument is that pharmaceutical companies don't want to develop cures, because it's more profitable to create maintenance drugs that patients need to take for the rest of their life instead of a brief treatment that eliminates the disease.

Tangentially related, I once heard Sean Hannity comment on his radio show that he didn't see any reason why marijuana should be legalized for cancer patients, since there are already a half-dozen pills that they can take together and achieve the same effect. Why sell a patient one pill when you can sell them six.
 
The usual argument is that pharmaceutical companies don't want to develop cures, because it's more profitable to create maintenance drugs that patients need to take for the rest of their life instead of a brief treatment that eliminates the disease.

Tangentially related, I once heard Sean Hannity comment on his radio show that he didn't see any reason why marijuana should be legalized for cancer patients, since there are already a half-dozen pills that they can take together and achieve the same effect. Why sell a patient one pill when you can sell them six.

Yes, companies prefer to develop drugs that need to be taken by as many people as possible as long as possible. But as you know the economics/psychology of the customers are complex in many ways. If given the choice to buy a single pill to cure their cancer, rather than take a "maintenance" drug that keeps them going 3 or 4 years until they die of the disease (or survive long term but with limitations), most people would pay twice or four times as much for the single pill cure as for the total costs of the long term only-partly-effective treatments. Same thing for type 2 diabetes, etc.

If they didn't have the money available in one lump sum, they would take out a long term loan to get it. I would.
 
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The usual argument is that pharmaceutical companies don't want to develop cures, because it's more profitable to create maintenance drugs that patients need to take for the rest of their life instead of a brief treatment that eliminates the disease.

Tangentially related, I once heard Sean Hannity comment on his radio show that he didn't see any reason why marijuana should be legalized for cancer patients, since there are already a half-dozen pills that they can take together and achieve the same effect. Why sell a patient one pill when you can sell them six.

I always find this argument to be actually insulting.
While of course there are flaws in pharmaceutical companies, as with all large corporations, the vast majority of people working in the research departments as well as a lot of the other areas of the companies are dedicated men and women actually working hard to find as many cures as possible, often due to personal loss in their own lives.

The work is also quite hard psychologically as, contrary to what is shown in movies, developing a new medicine takes a lot of time and often eventually only works marginally better or not at all. Since part of the testing involves actual patients that you hope to cure, the statistics showing no improvement represent family members lost. This is one of the reasons I could never have worked in that field and the reason many researchers there do tend to burn out or leave.

What is also conveniently forgotten is how much money each bit of research costs. Those decades of work, often by 10-20 people are not free. Nor is the equipment used. So each attempt, successful or not, costs about 100K - 300K euro's at the least. And most attempts are unsuccessful. Even with charities and government funding this means that pharmaceutical companies need to make money. And some then choose ways that are not always ethical, for which they could and should be punished then.

If they purely wanted to make profit out of people's misery there is an alternative though. Drugs are controlled. And need to perform to certain standards. And require follow up tests to see if adverse effects appear.
But homeopathic 'medicine'? It requires none of this. Due to the lobbying by Big Homeo they need not prove their sugar water works. Nor do they need to pay any actual development, control, or follow up. In other words, they sell water with minute amounts of sugar and no actual discernible components for the same price as actual medication.

So if there is an industry that is willing to make obscene amounts of profit while selling materials that don't actually help their patients, the finger should not go to pharmaceutical companies, but rather the homeopathic industry and all of it's hangers on.
 
I always find this argument to be actually insulting.
While of course there are flaws in pharmaceutical companies, as with all large corporations, the vast majority of people working in the research departments as well as a lot of the other areas of the companies are dedicated men and women actually working hard to find as many cures as possible, often due to personal loss in their own lives.


It seems that it may be a little like when I see people ask atheists why they're not constantly robbing, raping, killing, etc. if they don't fear divine punishment.
"I would casually screw people over for money. I don't believe that I'm a bad person. Therefore, everyone must secretly feel the same way."

Pharmaceutical companies and other corporations have lots of money and power, so they must be screwing people over to get it. Nice guys finish last, after all.
 
I work in a big corporation, completely different industry.

But it amazes how many of my friends attribute malice and greed to employees within the company I work for.

Its telecommunications, but when it comes to the demonization of corporations and by extension the people within them - I think I have a small sense of what people working for Bayer or Monsanto must feel.

You hear the rabble talk about your company and then see people inside the company actually caring about the things people allege they don't care about and acting like normal human beings.

The real issue in my opinion, is that if people are frustrated with the outcomes related to the corporate economy most are ill-equipped to understand the inter-institutional dynamics, to say nothing of the intra-institutional dynamics within a large corporation.

Most of the biggest critics of corporations I know have spent little time inside large organizations, and have little conception of how things work in large groups of groups like that.
 
The real issue in my opinion, is that if people are frustrated with the outcomes related to the corporate economy most are ill-equipped to understand the inter-institutional dynamics, to say nothing of the intra-institutional dynamics within a large corporation.

Most of the biggest critics of corporations I know have spent little time inside large organizations, and have little conception of how things work in large groups of groups like that.

I'm one of those outsiders. My intuition is that malfeasance is an emergent property of the corporate structure. It doesn't therefore have to be intended or identified with any particular individual.

Since I am not involved in the corporate ecology, I only interact as a customer. I would like to know how you view other corporate entities, like Microsoft or Spectrum (my local monopoly cable company), as someone in the corporate "tribe." Do you feel victimized like I do?
 
The terminology you use is interesting "victimized"?

Do you feel particularly "victimized" by Microsoft or Spectrum?

I guess my first reaction is no one singled you out - your use-case for something may have fallen into a gap of business rules.

But to be "victimized" implies a conscious agency in those circumstances at the company in question which resulted in your particular frustration.
 
I'm one of those outsiders. My intuition is that malfeasance is an emergent property of the corporate structure. It doesn't therefore have to be intended or identified with any particular individual.

Since I am not involved in the corporate ecology, I only interact as a customer. I would like to know how you view other corporate entities, like Microsoft or Spectrum (my local monopoly cable company), as someone in the corporate "tribe." Do you feel victimized like I do?

To be fair, corporations have different internal cultures, and large enough corporations may have different subcultures. As an outsider you can't really get a feel for it, although enough actions by the corporation in the aggregate may give some indication.

Not all corporations have the same culture, and it often to me appears more a function of earlier and founding generations at the corporation or particular divisions who make hiring decisions and set examples that reinforce the culture. I don't think structure plays much of a role, except if it is wide or narrow, and not even too much there.

My particular experience is with two very large and well known corporations, one of which was very disfunctional.
 
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The terminology you use is interesting "victimized"?

Do you feel particularly "victimized" by Microsoft or Spectrum?

I guess my first reaction is no one singled you out - your use-case for something may have fallen into a gap of business rules.

But to be "victimized" implies a conscious agency in those circumstances at the company in question which resulted in your particular frustration.

The reason I used "emerges" is because I'm proposing a systemic, not an agent-driven point of view. But either works from the perspective of the customer-done-wrong. The feeling is one of being bullied by a powerful, uncaring organization.

Surely this can't come as a surprise? That some people feel this way. All I was asking was how you might rationalize their sense of being victimized.

It's not a gotcha question. I'm an outsider, you are an insider. I'm curious how things look from up there on the twelfth floor.
 
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Not all corporations have the same culture, and it often to me appears more a function of earlier and founding generations at the corporation or particular divisions who make hiring decisions and set examples that reinforce the culture. I don't think structure plays much of a role, except if it is wide or narrow, and not even too much there.

My particular experience is with two very large and well known corporations, one of which was very disfunctional.

I don't think the animus against Big Pharma is fictional. It might be largely unjustified and mischaracterize pharmaceutical companies, but the negative feelings for them are real.

Perhaps the clearest way I can capture the foreboding attached across corporations is in the catchphrase, "Don't take it personally, it's just business."
 
The reason I used "emerges" is because I'm proposing a systemic, not an agent-driven point of view. But either works from the perspective of the customer-done-wrong. The feeling is one of being bullied by a powerful, uncaring organization.

Surely this can't come as a surprise? That some people feel this way. All I was asking was how you might rationalize their sense of being victimized.

It's not a gotcha question. I'm an outsider, you are an insider. I'm curious how things look from up there on the twelfth floor.

Ya so I can understand why people get frustrated, but when someone feels "victimized" they attribute an intent to their problem which most of the time isn't there.

A massive system handling millions of customers and millions of bytes of data had imperfect business rules in their system which caused your bill error or missed appointment.

At least on the initial harm there is almost certainly no intent behind it. I often feel like people think we sit in boardrooms and brainstorm ideas like "how to screw over our customer base"

The analytics revolutions has hit big business, people are doing math that shows the extra costs incurred from bad customer experiences.

People might be surprised to know how many people look at these numbers and leverage that same drive people complain about "obsessive worry over the bottom line" to find broken business processes and protect the bottom line by making happier customers that have less reason to complain.

Complaints cost money - churn, customer service agents, it all adds up really quickly.

There's a synergy between drive of wanting happy customers and protecting the bottom line.

The big problem 25 years ago is there was less math and process geared towards connecting these dots and so there was less rationale inside big companies to find broken processes - stuff was piecemeal, silos were a bigger deal and execs didn't have access to math showing them how their practises were driving so much "dirty revenue" (revenue that comes in month 1 but then erodes through complaints and churn in subsequent months)
 
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I think Big Pharma is too complex to just shuffle under the umbrella of pure evil but there is a lot of shadiness being exposed. Their (admittedly failing) attempts to stifle medical marijuana found them donating a decent amount of money to anti-marijuana organizations in Arizona last year. (I tried to link as resource but I'm too new to do that but you can easily look it up.)

I guess that's business. But with the DEA having their own interests in keeping tight restrictions on marijuana research and big pharma throwing money to stop their competition before it starts, it seems a bit shady. I mean, whether you believe marijuana can or can't be used as a medicine, the DEA won't even let us research it without jumping through some pretty tight hoops. Just look at all of the retired athletes that are strung out on opioids pretty much begging to switch over to medical marijuana because the pharmaceitical products are killing them.
 
Does anyone have any good recos for good examinations, with maybe real access and interviews - with tobacco execs that wilfully hid evidence of harm, pharma execs behind rushing of dangerous drugs to market, even the enron guys?

Im really curious how the people at the center of these things really rationalized things. I know there were the key elements of self preservation and greed - but what was a tobacco exec *really thinking* about the hordes of people addicted to their product?

Were they rationalizing with tropes about "personal responsibility" and "freedom of choice" to make any worry about real health tragedies caused by their product go away?

I was just talking on a FB thread in reaction to an article about the mass "brainwashing" of society:

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20160105-the-man-who-studies-the-spread-of-ignorance

And people were talking about how the "powerful" like to "use these techniques" to "control" the masses.

But how many of them are just as "controlled" by ideas and rationalizations as the general public was?

Is there ever a perfect example of the mustache twirling CEO who doesn't give a damn about anybody and is clear-headedly and consciously pursuing profit over the ruin of many lives?

I suppose I would like the answer to be no - that the evil of these kinds of things is almost produced as a matter of course from not just institutional dynamics, but base human psychology.

That it takes no special kind of evil to manifest this kind of stuff - any one of us could have been caught up in a similar situation if we found ourselves in the halls of power within these kinds of companies in these kinds of moments...
 

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