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Old 20th April 2017, 10:24 PM   #1
Solitaire
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Achievement Unlocked: Flawed Democracy

Quote:

US No Longer Full Democracy by Gretel Kaufman


The United States is no longer a "full democracy," according to the 2016
Democracy Index. The annual report released Wednesday by the Britain-based
Economist Intelligence Unit downgraded the US to a "flawed democracy,"
placing it 21st in the international rankings. The grading process was based
on five categories: electoral process and pluralism, functioning of government,
political participation, political culture, and civil liberties.

While the list was published in the first week of Donald Trump's presidency,
the report emphasized that President Trump's polarizing election victory was
a symptom – not a cause – of the United States' new "flawed democracy" status.
Indeed, the report noted, the US had been "teetering on the brink of becoming
a flawed democracy" for years amid a decades-long decline in the American
public's confidence in government, and would have earned the same ranking
even if 2016 had not been an election year.

"Trust in political institutions is an essential component of well-functioning
democracies," the report stated. "Yet surveys by Pew, Gallup and other
polling agencies have confirmed that public confidence in government
has slumped to historic lows in the U.S. This has had a corrosive effect
on the quality of democracy."

The process didn’t fail with the electoral system, it failed at the point where
politicians started throwing their hats into the ring. If the parties cared about
winning then they would have a bunch of border collies in the ring that jump
up, catch the hat, and then run off with it. Smart dogs. I am sure they would
have kept Trump out.

For extra credits, try building a third party that doesn’t suck. I mean, a bunch
of old dancing naked guys on the stage ain’t going to grow the libertarian party
by millions of people.

Note: music used in this episode: Tactile Freefall by Dave Kellogg.
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Old 20th April 2017, 10:38 PM   #2
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post

For extra credits, try building a third party that doesn’t suck. I mean, a bunch
of old dancing naked guys on the stage ain’t going to grow the libertarian party
by millions of people.

Note: music used in this episode: Tactile Freefall by Dave Kellogg.
Why not? I see a man do that and I think awesome.
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Old 21st April 2017, 03:40 AM   #3
psionl0
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Originally Posted by Solitaire View Post
For extra credits, try building a third party that doesn’t suck.
Bleeding votes away from one candidate and handing the other candidate victory by default does not unflaw democracy.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 07:09 AM   #4
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If politicians pounding the desk, screaming, "See? They have the power and are doing a terrible job of it!" starts to have purchase, it is natural to have a decreasing confidence in the ability of government to do something.

Also, one does not have much confidence in government if the government is doing the wrong thing, regardless of how well they do it. "[Half the country] are a basket of deplorables and we're gonna bury you for ever and ever!"

Well, gee. Can't see a lack of confidence in government if that gains power.


This is a success of freedom of speech, and is not a flaw at all.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:03 PM   #5
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Quote:
While the list was published in the first week of Donald Trump's presidency,
the report emphasized that President Trump's polarizing election victory was
a symptom – not a cause
– of the United States' new "flawed democracy" status. Indeed, the report noted, the US had been "teetering on the brink of becoming a flawed democracy" for years amid a decades-long decline in the American public's confidence in government, and would have earned the same ranking even if 2016 had not been an election year.
It's Obama's fault!
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Old 22nd April 2017, 12:28 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
It's Obama's fault!
That's like a rapist blaming the victim.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:45 PM   #7
Aepervius
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Bleeding votes away from one candidate and handing the other candidate victory by default does not unflaw democracy.
It does if it provoke a renewal of discussion and interrest into politic by the voting/pre-voting population, and sharing of political power if nobody has majority force one to mellow out programs (regression toward the center) and force cooperation.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:49 PM   #8
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The whole gerrymandering thing taints the notion that we can draw broad conclusions about voting. As long as parties exist to further themselves, and control the electoral process on the most basic level as they do, we will never have a proper democracy. Ever.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:50 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
It does if it provoke a renewal of discussion and interrest into politic by the voting/pre-voting population, and sharing of political power if nobody has majority force one to mellow out programs (regression toward the center) and force cooperation.
But that doesn't happen. It is rare that a third party candidate gets enough votes to win a seat. It is still a 2 party system.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:51 PM   #10
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My guesstimate, if the OP is fully true, we are about 97th percentile of the world.

But who is "Britain-basedEconomist Intelligence Unit " and should anybody care about their opinion?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 01:51 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The whole gerrymandering thing taints the notion that we can draw broad conclusions about voting. As long as parties exist to further themselves, and control the electoral process on the most basic level as they do, we will never have a proper democracy. Ever.
Frankly, you can't have a real democracy either when some votes count for more by virtue of living in different state. (ETA but the electoral college thing being stupid is food for another thread we discussed to death).

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Old 22nd April 2017, 02:30 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Frankly, you can't have a real democracy either when some votes count for more by virtue of living in different state.
That sounds like a "No True Scotsman" argument. The real question is whether any form of vote weighting is desirable, not whether the technical dictionary definition of "democracy" has been achieved.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 02:38 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Frankly, you can't have a real democracy either when some votes count for more by virtue of living in different state. (ETA but the electoral college thing being stupid is food for another thread we discussed to death).
That is just a difference in philosophy over voting. The gerrymandering is a deliberate swindle, and infinitely more destructive.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 03:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
But the steady decline in confidence in government – kickstarted by the Vietnam War in the 1960s and fueled by events such as the Watergate Hotel break-in and the energy crisis of the 1970s – has gone hand-in-hand with a rise in political polarization, a phenomenon that experts say further inhibits a healthy democratic system. Partisan animosity reached a record high in 2016, as the Monitor reported in June.
The extreme polarization that we have today is the direct result of a decades-long campaign by a vast right-wing propaganda machine to vilify liberals and liberalism. Along with voter suppression, union busting, and gerrymandering, it was a tactical maneuver in a larger strategy aimed at one-party majoritarianism.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 03:29 PM   #15
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The US has always been a flawed democracy. I'm not exactly sure what their point is.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 05:17 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
The US has always been a flawed democracy. I'm not exactly sure what their point is.
That it's declining. Do you doubt that?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:21 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
That it's declining. Do you doubt that?
Of course I doubt it. You could make the argument that US democracy is declining in relation to some arbitrary standard. But overall, US democracy has always sucked.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:51 PM   #18
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Hold on. The Economist has only just now figured out that "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried"?

After remembering our Churchill, we should recall our Buckley: "The system is utilitarian. But is it a fit object of faith and hope?"

But the problem is not American democracy, then or now. The problem is, as always, America itself. Haters gonna hate.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:52 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
Of course I doubt it. You could make the argument that US democracy is declining in relation to some arbitrary standard.
I'm not sure how you reconcile those two statements.

Originally Posted by Tony View Post
But overall, US democracy has always sucked.
Which is no guarantee against getting suckier.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:17 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Hold on. The Economist has only just now figured out that "democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried"?

After remembering our Churchill, we should recall our Buckley: "The system is utilitarian. But is it a fit object of faith and hope?"

But the problem is not American democracy, then or now. The problem is, as always, America itself. Haters gonna hate.
No, that America's form of democracy has become flawed.

Apologists gonna apologise.

Note also a main point made is major falls in levels of faith in American democracy by Americans.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
No, that America's form of democracy has become flawed.

Apologists gonna apologise.
Flawed according to some arbitrary standard. It was always flawed. This is just another appeal to authority.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:36 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Flawed according to some arbitrary standard. It was always flawed. This is just another appeal to authority.
Growing more flawed according to American people as measured ny public survey.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 02:20 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Flawed according to some arbitrary standard. It was always flawed. This is just another appeal to authority.
Nope, an appeal to authority would be something like, "This study must be true because the authors are authorities." That's not at all the same thing as, "This study quantifies some aspects of our democracy, which is obviously becoming more and more dysfunctional, as evidenced by the election of Donald Trump."
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:02 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
Frankly, you can't have a real democracy either when some votes count for more by virtue of living in different state.
And again I have to ask: why not?

Aside from your own view on what democracy should be, what is it about the definition of democracy that precludes this?

I think all democraties are "flawed", but that doesn't make them not democratic.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:13 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
I'm not sure how you reconcile those two statements.
Not sure what needs reconciling.

Quote:
Which is no guarantee against getting suckier.
No ****** I don't recall where I said otherwise. It still has a long way to go before American democracy matches the lows of the past though.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:42 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
It still has a long way to go before American democracy matches the lows of the past though.

Ah. Nothing to worry about, then.

"Things have been worse" is a pretty dangerous reason to dismiss an apparent slide in the direction of that, or an equally worse, state.

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Old 23rd April 2017, 05:49 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Ah. Nothing to worry about, then.

"Things have been worse" is a pretty dangerous reason to dismiss an apparent slide in the direction of that, or an equally worse, state.
I'm not dismissing anything. I know it's going to get worse, I'm hoping for it actually. I'm just not freaking out like an unhinged wacko. Anyone with a high school
Understanding of American history will know that things have been way worse in the past. Best not to look at the past through rose-colored glasses.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:41 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I'm not dismissing anything. I know it's going to get worse, I'm hoping for it actually. I'm just not freaking out like an unhinged wacko. Anyone with a high school
Understanding of American history will know that things have been way worse in the past. Best not to look at the past through rose-colored glasses.

What a weird way to express agreement on the subject.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:54 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
What a weird way to express agreement on the subject.
I'm not sure what you thought my position is/was. I dislike Trump greatly. But I also think he is the president the US deserves. He is a farce that shows the system for what it really is.
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Old 24th April 2017, 03:42 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
The extreme polarization that we have today is the direct result of a decades-long campaign by a vast right-wing propaganda machine to vilify liberals and liberalism. Along with voter suppression, union busting, and gerrymandering, it was a tactical maneuver in a larger strategy aimed at one-party majoritarianism.
And it is a very good thing that there is no vast left-wing propaganda machine to vilify conservatives and conservatism.
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Old 24th April 2017, 11:07 PM   #31
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(dup deleted)

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Old 24th April 2017, 11:16 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And it is a very good thing that there is no vast left-wing propaganda machine to vilify conservatives and conservatism.
Over and over on this board, when the ugly side of "conservatism" is mentioned, the preferred deflection is a false equivalence. Yep, some liberals reacted in kind to the rise of Limbaugh, Coulter and an army of clones, as should be expected, and that certainly aided the right-wing's divisive strategy, but there is not and never was anything on the left that remotely resembles the size and viciousness of the vast right-wing propaganda machine that was, and still is, driving the hatred.

Over and over in my own extended family and circle of friends, I personally saw exactly what this documentary teaser shows. If you didn't, then I have to suspect that you weren't paying attention:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:41 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
The US has always been a flawed democracy. I'm not exactly sure what their point is.
US Democracy is flawed because Human Beings are flawed. There is no system that can keep voters from making really bad decisions on occasion.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:43 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And it is a very good thing that there is no vast left-wing propaganda machine to vilify conservatives and conservatism.
Both sides have a huge propaganda machine to vilify their opponents. It has been that way forever. Read about the American political campaign in 1800. Made the worse things we see do today look pretty tame.
ANyway, I think that the more inflammatory political rhetoric on both sides does not sway that many voters. It is pretty much preaching to the converted.
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Old 27th April 2017, 01:44 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
I'm not sure what you thought my position is/was. I dislike Trump greatly. But I also think he is the president the US deserves. He is a farce that shows the system for what it really is.
The term "America's Burseceloni" come to mind.
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Old 27th April 2017, 03:16 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The term "America's Burseceloni" come to mind.

Berlusconi.
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Old 27th April 2017, 03:22 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Cl1mh4224rd View Post
Berlusconi.
I know someone who thought he was called "Burlesque Tony".
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Old 27th April 2017, 03:58 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
And it is a very good thing that there is no vast left-wing propaganda machine to vilify conservatives and conservatism.
Here is a left wing media outlet reporting the fall of communism.
'GDR unveils reform package'
If you had any knowledge of left wing politics, and a single grasp of knowledge about media, you wouldn't call everything you don't like 'left'.
If you don't enjoy the taste of a pie is it leftist?
Attempting to blast a center-right party, and media, as left wing is akin to calling Mussolini a pinko commie because he didn't set up as many holocaust holiday centers.

America sure has set a low bar for dumbed down.
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Old 28th April 2017, 04:50 AM   #39
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
US Democracy is flawed because Human Beings are flawed. There is no system that can keep voters from making really bad decisions on occasion.
No but you can have a system that can keep these decisions mostly in check.
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Old 28th April 2017, 09:41 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
US Democracy is flawed because Human Beings are flawed. There is no system that can keep voters from making really bad decisions on occasion.

A robust and effective universal education system probably helps.
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