ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Tags World War II history

Reply
Old 4th August 2017, 02:14 AM   #281
Henri McPhee
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,982
I just think it's amazing complacency and want of judgment, a bit like sports journalists and pundits telling everybody that England women are going to win the women's tournament, or Scotland is going to win the world cup as has happened in the past. The German Colonel Oster who was one of ours, warned the French, if not the British, that Hitler was going to go round the Maginot Line and attack through the Ardennes but he was not believed. His criticism and information was rejected and ignored by Gamelin.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 02:14 AM   #282
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,725
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
General Alan Brooke was told in his diaries that he discovered that the Home Fleet in the event of an invasion, had little intention of coming further south than the Wash.
Either the RN were lying to him, or you have misinterpreted what he said.

You do know where Portsmouth is on a map?
And Plymouth?

They both had lots of ships stationed there through August and September 1940 (well, and the rest of the war).

In other words, a fair chunk of the RN would have already been in or close to the invasion area on any D-Day for Sealion.
Tolls is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 02:22 AM   #283
Nessie
Philosopher
 
Nessie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 9,892
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
On the other hand assuming the Soviets massed their troops and supplies at the border in the same way the Germans did in June 41 they had a lot less ground to cover to reach Berlin than the Germans did to reach Moscow.

I suspect though Stalin would have been content to watch Germany and Britain batter away at one another for a while longer while the Soviet forces carried on their modernisation.
I was thinking more about the threat to the UK. The Soviets were never a military threat to the UK until nuclear weapons.
__________________
Audiophile/biker/sceptic
Nessie is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 05:43 AM   #284
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,724
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
On the other hand assuming the Soviets massed their troops and supplies at the border in the same way the Germans did in June 41 they had a lot less ground to cover to reach Berlin than the Germans did to reach Moscow.
Google tells me:
Brest-Litovsk - Moscow: 1,056 km (995 km for crows)
Brest-Litovsk - Berlin: 780 km (697 km for crows)

Given how close Barbarossa came to Moscow, an equally successful Soviet offensive would have taken Berlin.

Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
I suspect though Stalin would have been content to watch Germany and Britain batter away at one another for a while longer while the Soviet forces carried on their modernisation.
Yes.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 08:46 AM   #285
Henri McPhee
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,982
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Either the RN were lying to him, or you have misinterpreted what he said.

You do know where Portsmouth is on a map?
And Plymouth?

They both had lots of ships stationed there through August and September 1940 (well, and the rest of the war).

In other words, a fair chunk of the RN would have already been in or close to the invasion area on any D-Day for Sealion.
I don't think the British Navy had the military clout to prevent a German invasion, as most 'scholars' seem to think now, unless the Luftwaffe and the Stuka dive bombers were kept at bay by Fighter Command of the RAF. They would have been sitting ducks. Fighter Command came close to defeat. August 31 1940 was a particularly bad day.

General Alan Brooke explained more about all this in his diaries:

Quote:
The naval defence in the Channel and southern waters did not appear to be able to offer the required interference with German landing operations. On the other hand, the Admiralty and naval commanders were inclined to criticise freely Army dispositions. Had I listened to these criticisms I should have had to employ practically the whole of my forces solely for the defence of naval bases by concentrating men on the beaches in their vicinity.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 10:29 AM   #286
ddt
Mafia Penguin
 
ddt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 17,724
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't think the British Navy had the military clout to prevent a German invasion, as most 'scholars' seem to think now, unless the Luftwaffe and the Stuka dive bombers were kept at bay by Fighter Command of the RAF. They would have been sitting ducks. Fighter Command came close to defeat. August 31 1940 was a particularly bad day.
According to wiki:
Quote:
Reichsmarschall Hermann Göring, Commander-in-Chief of the Luftwaffe, believed the invasion could not succeed and doubted whether the German air force would be able to win control of the skies
If even Göring is pessimistic about the plans, they're abysmal.
__________________
Founder of the group "The Truth about Anjezë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu aka Mother Teresa"

"I think it is very beautiful for the poor to accept their lot, to share it with the passion of Christ. I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people." - "Saint" Teresa, the lying thieving Albanian dwarf
ddt is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 11:22 AM   #287
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,959
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I don't think the British Navy had the military clout to prevent a German invasion, as most 'scholars' seem to think now, unless the Luftwaffe and the Stuka dive bombers were kept at bay by Fighter Command of the RAF. They would have been sitting ducks. Fighter Command came close to defeat. August 31 1940 was a particularly bad day.

General Alan Brooke explained more about all this in his diaries:
Can you explain how these bombers would defend the barges during the night part of the crossing, given how they failed in supporting the invasion of Crete (which did succeed due to the parachute attack).

You might as well rely on the Bismark, even though it hadn't been commissioned by then.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 4th August 2017, 12:33 PM   #288
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,691
Originally Posted by Tolls View Post
Either the RN were lying to him, or you have misinterpreted what he said.
And it's the latter option yet again. 'Home Fleet' was the designation of the battleship force based at Scapa Flow. it also included supporting elements based in Scotland and the North of England. The Destroyers at Portsmouth and Plymouth were assigned to Portsmouth Command and Western Approaches respectively. Took all of 5 minutes to Google that, which give you an idea of how little research Henri is doing.

Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I was thinking more about the threat to the UK. The Soviets were never a military threat to the UK until nuclear weapons.
True they would have had no more amphibious assault capability than the Germans did.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX

Last edited by Garrison; 4th August 2017 at 12:35 PM.
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2017, 01:54 AM   #289
Henri McPhee
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,982
There is a difference between appeasement and utmost folly.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2017, 08:38 AM   #290
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,959
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is a difference between appeasement and utmost folly.
And?
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 23rd August 2017, 10:00 AM   #291
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Somewhere between the central U.S. and Hades
Posts: 11,509
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is a difference between appeasement and utmost folly.
I hate to point this out, but since utmost folly is, by definition, singular, there's a difference between it and everything else.

/pedantic

Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 07:36 AM   #292
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,384
I'd also like to point out that the RAF was never really close to defeat. At the point where Germany thought they had them and switched to London, believing that they had the RAF down to the last hundred operational planes, the RAF actually had more planes than ever before.

Before the Battle Of Britain, Germany estimated that England can produce no more than 180-300 fighter planes per month. It was a gross underestimation. By October 1940, Britain had actually produced some 2000 new Spitfires and Hurricanes, or more than double their losses. The number of operational RAF fighters was actually going UP and fast.

By contrast, Germany produced about half as many new planes in that period, and the difference between new planes and losses was much smaller. I.e., the Luftwaffe was growing its number of planes a LOT slower than the RAF was growing theirs.

Additionally, Germany was losing its experienced pilots faster. Just because a German pilot bailing out over England was out of the fight, while a British one could be back in another plane right away.

But let's also look at what supporting an invasion would have actually meant.

Germany would have needed to:
- have enough sea-worthy transports in the first place, which they didn't
- have the Luftwaffe protect not just the troop transports, but also the ferrying over a stream of supplies for them
- AT THE SAME TIME, the Luftwaffe was supposed to act as flying artillery for the invading troops, because they didn't have enough transport capacity for a lot of tanks and artillery for those initial troops too
- have naval shipyard capacity to replace the transports they'd be losing fast. Which if you look at their naval production otherwise, it was nowhere near enough for that kind of massive effort

... all while the RAF was growing its numbers superiority very fast.

Additionally, there's this myth of the German elite troops, being awesome against huge odds. Actually, they weren't. They really only did well when they had overwhelming numbers concentrated in one point, against defenders that could be thus overwhelmed. Also the whole Bewegungskrieg concept (literally "movement war"; the Germans didn't actually use the term Blitzkrieg) needed space for maneuver. An invading army in Britain would at no point have either.

And encircling the Brits after an invasion would have been a problem too.

But let's look deeper at how the whole Bewegungskrieg worked. Once you actieved that concentrated punch you'd break through and try one of the following:
- encircle some of the troops you bypassed
- keep going and cause chaos, while they chase you; only Rommel really managed to pull this stunt
- occupy some position and let them attack you, until the rest of the army links with you

Mostly the latter was the big evolution, so to speak. But that doesn't work when you also have to keep a supply corridor to the shore. If you just punch through and move on (which wouldn't be easy in the first place with not enough tanks ferried over), the Brits close the beachhead and now YOU are the one encircled.

I'm not saying an invasion would generally be impossible, but Sealion? Even if Germany found a thousand seaworthy transports somewhere, it just wouldn't work. Just too many problems, really.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 24th August 2017 at 07:39 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 10:16 AM   #293
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,959
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'd also like to point out that the RAF was never really close to defeat. At the point where Germany thought they had them and switched to London, believing that they had the RAF down to the last hundred operational planes, the RAF actually had more planes than ever before.

Before the Battle Of Britain, Germany estimated that England can produce no more than 180-300 fighter planes per month. It was a gross underestimation. By October 1940, Britain had actually produced some 2000 new Spitfires and Hurricanes, or more than double their losses. The number of operational RAF fighters was actually going UP and fast.

By contrast, Germany produced about half as many new planes in that period, and the difference between new planes and losses was much smaller. I.e., the Luftwaffe was growing its number of planes a LOT slower than the RAF was growing theirs.

Additionally, Germany was losing its experienced pilots faster. Just because a German pilot bailing out over England was out of the fight, while a British one could be back in another plane right away.

But let's also look at what supporting an invasion would have actually meant.

Germany would have needed to:
- have enough sea-worthy transports in the first place, which they didn't
- have the Luftwaffe protect not just the troop transports, but also the ferrying over a stream of supplies for them
- AT THE SAME TIME, the Luftwaffe was supposed to act as flying artillery for the invading troops, because they didn't have enough transport capacity for a lot of tanks and artillery for those initial troops too
- have naval shipyard capacity to replace the transports they'd be losing fast. Which if you look at their naval production otherwise, it was nowhere near enough for that kind of massive effort

... all while the RAF was growing its numbers superiority very fast.

Additionally, there's this myth of the German elite troops, being awesome against huge odds. Actually, they weren't. They really only did well when they had overwhelming numbers concentrated in one point, against defenders that could be thus overwhelmed. Also the whole Bewegungskrieg concept (literally "movement war"; the Germans didn't actually use the term Blitzkrieg) needed space for maneuver. An invading army in Britain would at no point have either.

And encircling the Brits after an invasion would have been a problem too.

But let's look deeper at how the whole Bewegungskrieg worked. Once you actieved that concentrated punch you'd break through and try one of the following:
- encircle some of the troops you bypassed
- keep going and cause chaos, while they chase you; only Rommel really managed to pull this stunt
- occupy some position and let them attack you, until the rest of the army links with you

Mostly the latter was the big evolution, so to speak. But that doesn't work when you also have to keep a supply corridor to the shore. If you just punch through and move on (which wouldn't be easy in the first place with not enough tanks ferried over), the Brits close the beachhead and now YOU are the one encircled.

I'm not saying an invasion would generally be impossible, but Sealion? Even if Germany found a thousand seaworthy transports somewhere, it just wouldn't work. Just too many problems, really.

That's all very well, but what about the Bismark? I regard the fact that it hadn't been commissioned to be a minor detail, and I'm sure Napoleon said something about Battleships being queens of the land battle, or was that Washington and aircraft carriers?


Alternatively, you just need to compare the planning for Overlord with Sealion. Sealion was completely amateurish, or alternatively wasn't remotely serious.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 01:20 PM   #294
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,384
I'm not really sure which, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were never more serious than a general concept being toyed with. HQs everywhere try to make up plans for every possibility, whether it pans out or not, and often whether they're realistic or not. In fact, often you don't even realize how unrealistic it is until you start writing down the details.

At any rate, that's why you end up with stuff like the UK having plans for a war against the USSR (more than once, at that), the USA having plans at various points for wars against the UK and/or Canada, etc. Some people sit down and think up what it would involve, but most don't really get even much planning.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 01:54 PM   #295
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,959
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I'm not really sure which, but I wouldn't be surprised if it were never more serious than a general concept being toyed with. HQs everywhere try to make up plans for every possibility, whether it pans out or not, and often whether they're realistic or not. In fact, often you don't even realize how unrealistic it is until you start writing down the details.

At any rate, that's why you end up with stuff like the UK having plans for a war against the USSR (more than once, at that), the USA having plans at various points for wars against the UK and/or Canada, etc. Some people sit down and think up what it would involve, but most don't really get even much planning.
My theory is that the German commanders in their armed forces knew that they would need to neutralise both the RN and the RAF, and also knew that achieving both was unlikely, but that they also knew that saying no to Hitler would have been personally bad, so they instigated some pretty sketchy planning, so that they could report that they were doing something towards Sealion.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 01:59 PM   #296
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,384
I guess it's one of the constants of the universe that it's easier to tell your boss "we have a committee working on it" than to tell him "that's a stupid idea," eh?
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th August 2017, 02:26 PM   #297
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,959
That was my thinking, yes
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:13 AM   #298
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through a scribbled morning waving necessary ankles
 
Dave Rogers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Cair Paravel, according to XKCD
Posts: 25,292
From some of the orders Hitler issued in 1945, it seems that existence was a minor factor in deciding what forces to employ.

Dave
__________________
Me: So what you're saying is that, if the load carrying ability of the lower structure is reduced to the point where it can no longer support the load above it, it will collapse without a jolt, right?

Tony Szamboti: That is right
Dave Rogers is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 06:26 AM   #299
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,384
It's an older German tradition, if you look for example at the Schlieffen plan. War is complex, man. So our imaginary troops will come from 90 degrees from reality and catch the enemy completely by surprise
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 06:59 AM   #300
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,384
But let's address Bismarck. Hell, let's throw in Tirpitz too. And a completed Graf Zeppelin carrier. Why not? If we're going into fun alternate history scenario, let's dive in with glee like the Stuka.

You'll notice that what Bismarck manage to do was basically lead a small number of warships on a chase around the British Isles, trying to avoid a confrontation it couldn't win. When it was forced to actually stand and fight against just TWO battleships (the heavy cruisers only really joined at the end, after the Bismarck had lost its main guns), because that pesky aircraft disabled its rudder, yeah, it got blown to pieces. Even though by the end Rodney was shooting point blank at its thickest armour.

I'm not sure what even two of them could do against the whole home fleet, much less the combined all fleets in Britain. Which really is what would have been out, if Britain had to do an all out effort to keep off an invasion. They wouldn't have gone, "oh, let's keep our ships in port. We can't afford to lose a few."

Also bear in mind that this time they wouldn't just face a few obsolete carrier planes, but just about every bomber the Brits could put in the air from regular airstrips too.

The Bismarck also had several problems. I'm sure the more history versed folks here know them, but in case someone doesn't, here is a very relevant one: its AA guns couldn't depress below a certain angle, making it all but defenseless to torpedo bombing attacks. Which is how and why a few slow interwar carrier planes torpedoed it in the first place.

And even its armour wasn't as impenetrable as some people think. It wasn't the Yamato. Yeah, it was hard to sink, but it hadn't been all THAT hard to put out of action. A single close range 16" salvo from the Rodney blew upthe forward control post and killed most of the senior officers. A few more salvoes blew up its main turrets. And remember, this wasn't plunging attacks against the thinner roofs. The Rodney was closing as fast as it could and shooting at the thickest side armour.

All in all, the Bismarck was actually disabled pretty quickly when forced to stand and fight. Yes, the battle took a lot more time, but mainly because the Brits were determined to sink it already. For most of the shooting gallery that ensued, the ship was as good as no threat to anybody. It certainly wouldn't be in much of a position to support an invasion or anything.

Now some may object that it WAS only because being forced to stand and fight in close quarters, but really, that's also what you could expect if fighting to support an invasion in the Channel. I mean, sure, it probably could retreat to port and avoid being sunk, but that's back to square one: now the Royal Navy can sink those transports with impunity.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?

Last edited by HansMustermann; 25th August 2017 at 07:05 AM.
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 12:38 PM   #301
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,647
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
But let's address Bismarck. Hell, let's throw in Tirpitz too. And a completed Graf Zeppelin carrier. Why not? If we're going into fun alternate history scenario, let's dive in with glee like the Stuka.

You'll notice that what Bismarck manage to do was basically lead a small number of warships on a chase around the British Isles, trying to avoid a confrontation it couldn't win. When it was forced to actually stand and fight against just TWO battleships (the heavy cruisers only really joined at the end, after the Bismarck had lost its main guns), because that pesky aircraft disabled its rudder, yeah, it got blown to pieces. Even though by the end Rodney was shooting point blank at its thickest armour.

I'm not sure what even two of them could do against the whole home fleet, much less the combined all fleets in Britain. Which really is what would have been out, if Britain had to do an all out effort to keep off an invasion. They wouldn't have gone, "oh, let's keep our ships in port. We can't afford to lose a few."

Also bear in mind that this time they wouldn't just face a few obsolete carrier planes, but just about every bomber the Brits could put in the air from regular airstrips too.

The Bismarck also had several problems. I'm sure the more history versed folks here know them, but in case someone doesn't, here is a very relevant one: its AA guns couldn't depress below a certain angle, making it all but defenseless to torpedo bombing attacks. Which is how and why a few slow interwar carrier planes torpedoed it in the first place.

And even its armour wasn't as impenetrable as some people think. It wasn't the Yamato. Yeah, it was hard to sink, but it hadn't been all THAT hard to put out of action. A single close range 16" salvo from the Rodney blew upthe forward control post and killed most of the senior officers. A few more salvoes blew up its main turrets. And remember, this wasn't plunging attacks against the thinner roofs. The Rodney was closing as fast as it could and shooting at the thickest side armour.

All in all, the Bismarck was actually disabled pretty quickly when forced to stand and fight. Yes, the battle took a lot more time, but mainly because the Brits were determined to sink it already. For most of the shooting gallery that ensued, the ship was as good as no threat to anybody. It certainly wouldn't be in much of a position to support an invasion or anything.

Now some may object that it WAS only because being forced to stand and fight in close quarters, but really, that's also what you could expect if fighting to support an invasion in the Channel. I mean, sure, it probably could retreat to port and avoid being sunk, but that's back to square one: now the Royal Navy can sink those transports with impunity.
ANy alternative World War 2 naval scenario, I DEMAND we include "Montana" class US Battleships....
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 01:05 PM   #302
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,691
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
My theory is that the German commanders in their armed forces knew that they would need to neutralise both the RN and the RAF, and also knew that achieving both was unlikely, but that they also knew that saying no to Hitler would have been personally bad, so they instigated some pretty sketchy planning, so that they could report that they were doing something towards Sealion.

They were also banking on the threat of Sealion forcing the British to negotiate, at no point was there ever a single clear operational plan for the invasion as the differing requirements of the navy and army couldn't be reconciled.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 02:21 PM   #303
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANy alternative World War 2 naval scenario, I DEMAND we include "Montana" class US Battleships....
I assume on the UK side, in some kind of early entry into war of the USA?

Well, realistically the 16" guns would have done to the Bismarck the same that the Rodney already did in the real history: turn it into the world's most expensive buoy. Because essentially that was what the Bismarck was after the first few salvoes from the Rodney took out its weapons. It would need a lot more hits to actually sink, but basically it was just a buoy for most of the shooting gallery exercise.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 03:45 PM   #304
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,647
Originally Posted by HansMustermann View Post
I assume on the UK side, in some kind of early entry into war of the USA?

Well, realistically the 16" guns would have done to the Bismarck the same that the Rodney already did in the real history: turn it into the world's most expensive buoy. Because essentially that was what the Bismarck was after the first few salvoes from the Rodney took out its weapons. It would need a lot more hits to actually sink, but basically it was just a buoy for most of the shooting gallery exercise.
Actually, late 44 was the earliest that the USS Montana would have been ready.
In reality, the Montana class was cancelled in mid 1943,when it was clear that the Aircraft Carrier was the dominant Capital Ship,and Battleships were now in a supporting role. The "Iowa" class was to be the last US Battleship class to actually enter service.
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 04:30 PM   #305
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,691
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
ANy alternative World War 2 naval scenario, I DEMAND we include "Montana" class US Battleships....

Well USS Montana is Tier 10 whereas Bismarck is only tier 8 according to World of Warships so things general end badly for the Bismarck.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th August 2017, 08:30 PM   #306
HansMustermann
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 13,384
Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Actually, late 44 was the earliest that the USS Montana would have been ready.
In reality, the Montana class was cancelled in mid 1943,when it was clear that the Aircraft Carrier was the dominant Capital Ship,and Battleships were now in a supporting role. The "Iowa" class was to be the last US Battleship class to actually enter service.
I know, but you demanded that the Montana be there in our alternate history Sealion scenario, so that's mid-41 at the latest. Hence in that alternate reality, the Montana would have to be started and completed very early, and the US would have to enter the war very early. And yet somehow that wouldn't deterr Germany from trying Sealion.
__________________
Which part of "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" don't you understand?
HansMustermann is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 26th August 2017, 12:13 AM   #307
Klimax
NWO Cyborg 5960x (subversion VPUNPCKHQDQ)
 
Klimax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Starship Wanderer - DS9
Posts: 11,743
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
Well USS Montana is Tier 10 whereas Bismarck is only tier 8 according to World of Warships so things general end badly for the Bismarck.
Warspite or Dunkerque.
__________________
ModBorg

Engine: Ibalgin 400
Klimax is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 8th September 2017, 07:44 AM   #308
Henri McPhee
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,982
Politicians like Chamberlain don't always tell the truth with regard to things like appeasement. it's a bit like Brexit was supposed to give the NHS an extra £350 million a year which Farage just laughed off after the vote. Whenever a politician says that he or she has no plans to do something you can guarantee that's what will happen a few months later. I hope that's short enough.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2017, 02:29 AM   #309
Henri McPhee
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,982
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Jesus Christ, Henri, *everybody* knew Hitler intended to invade Russia. It was never a secret. The only question was when, where, and how. And Chamberlain could not have known that, because those things didn't get decided until *after he was dead*.

Seriously, what are you trying to get from this? What agreement are you looking for, here?
There was an old TV documentary yesterday about the Channel Islands at war in which it mentioned that resistance fighters there were betrayed to the Gestapo by an Irishman called Paddy Doyle. Chamberlain obtained much of his information from our secret service, which was secret at the time, and not from Boys Own comics.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 27th September 2017, 03:02 AM   #310
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,725
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an old TV documentary yesterday about the Channel Islands at war in which it mentioned that resistance fighters there were betrayed to the Gestapo by an Irishman called Paddy Doyle. Chamberlain obtained much of his information from our secret service, which was secret at the time, and not from Boys Own comics.
I dread to ask, but what does that have to do with anything?
More importantly, what does it have to do with what theprestige posted?
Tolls is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2017, 03:46 PM   #311
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,691
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There was an old TV documentary yesterday about the Channel Islands at war in which it mentioned that resistance fighters there were betrayed to the Gestapo by an Irishman called Paddy Doyle.
And 5000 Irish soldiers 'deserted' to enlist with the British Army, not to mention another 50,000 volunteers, so what exactly is your purpose in picking out a single pro-Nazi Irishman?
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 28th September 2017, 04:06 PM   #312
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23,487
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Chamberlain obtained much of his information from our secret service, which was secret at the time, and not from Boys Own comics.
The information didn't exist yet, Henri.
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 29th September 2017, 04:36 AM   #313
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,092
Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
And 5000 Irish soldiers 'deserted' to enlist with the British Army, not to mention another 50,000 volunteers, so what exactly is your purpose in picking out a single pro-Nazi Irishman?
Henri really doesn't like the Irish, if his posts in other threads are anything to go by.
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 08:23 AM   #314
Henri McPhee
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,982
There is a difference between appeasement and a monumental misjudgement.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 09:32 AM   #315
theprestige
Penultimate Amazing
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 23,487
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is a difference between appeasement and a monumental misjudgement.
Did you get that from a BBC programme?
theprestige is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 01:43 PM   #316
dudalb
Penultimate Amazing
 
dudalb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 37,647
Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
From some of the orders Hitler issued in 1945, it seems that existence was a minor factor in deciding what forces to employ.

Dave
"Where is Wenck? Where is Steiner?".
__________________
Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty.

Robert Heinlein.

Last edited by dudalb; 24th October 2017 at 01:44 PM.
dudalb is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 02:37 PM   #317
Garrison
Illuminator
 
Garrison's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 3,691
Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is a difference between appeasement and a monumental misjudgement.
So you post a non-sequitur, disappear from the thread for a couple of weeks, ignore all responses to your previous post and instead offer up another post unconnected to anything else that's been discussed.
__________________
So I've started a blog about my writing. Check it out at: http://fourth-planet-problem.blogspot.com/
And my first book is on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B077W322FX
Garrison is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th October 2017, 03:45 PM   #318
Border Reiver
Philosopher
 
Border Reiver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 6,092
It's his way
__________________
Questions, comments, queries, bitches, complaints, rude gestures and/or remarks?
Border Reiver is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 02:17 AM   #319
Henri McPhee
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,982
There was a TV documentary yesterday about psychopaths which started of with Jimmy Savile, and then moved on to Robert Maxwell, and other corporate psychopaths at Enron and the Royal Bank of Scotland. It then moved on to Hitler. A TV historian made the controversial point that Chamberlain was fooled and conned by Hitler's charm. That is not strictly true if you investigate some of the things Chamberlain had said in private about Hitler before war was declared.

I'm not sure if Trump is a psychopath, but I do think he is like a chump. I'm pretty sure Kim Jong Un is a psychopath with his fingers on the nuclear button, and I've never like Mugabe.

I agree with this quote from the internet:

Quote:
Harris’s defence of Chamberlain rests on the assertion that the Munich agreement, though a shameful betrayal of the Czechs, was the only practical course of action for the British government.
Henri McPhee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th October 2017, 01:02 PM   #320
jimbob
Uncritical "thinker"
 
jimbob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 15,959
Chamberlain was terminally ill at Munich. That does affect one's ability to negotiate effectively.
__________________
OECD healthcare spending
Expenditure on healthcare
http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm
link is 2015 data (2013 Data below):
UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending
US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending
jimbob is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » History, Literature, and the Arts

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 07:51 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.