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Old 20th August 2017, 09:44 AM   #361
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Wait. So you had histoplasmosis, some randomer in the doctors waiting room had histoplasmosis and now your wife had histoplasmosis.

What? Have you your very own epidemic going on?

As for your wife, I'm sorry she died, but she died from cancer. You said so yourself.

If you are such an expert, then you can tell me how a systemic fungus kills a person.

In your mind, I suppose you think they turn into a mushroom. If so, please provide links.

Because my life depended on it I did my research.
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Old 20th August 2017, 11:34 AM   #362
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
If you are such an expert, then you can tell me how a systemic fungus kills a person.



In your mind, I suppose you think they turn into a mushroom. If so, please provide links.



Because my life depended on it I did my research.


I'd advise against making things up about other posters. Your "turn into a mushroom," crack is a bald faced lie about another poster. Having to lie about your critics does nothing to enhance your credibility.
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Old 20th August 2017, 11:26 PM   #363
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
I'd advise against making things up about other posters. Your "turn into a mushroom," crack is a bald faced lie about another poster. Having to lie about your critics does nothing to enhance your credibility.

What lie? Get your facts straight. You are the nasty one - accusing me of lying when I did not.

I never said he DOES think people turn into mushrooms. I suggested he might - let him correct the impression he gives me. What does he think fungus does?

Again I ask - How does a systemic fungus kill? Abbadon gives the impression he is an authority on many subjects including this one.
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Old 21st August 2017, 02:09 AM   #364
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
What lie? Get your facts straight. You are the nasty one - accusing me of lying when I did not.

I never said he DOES think people turn into mushrooms. I suggested he might - let him correct the impression he gives me. What does he think fungus does?

Again I ask - How does a systemic fungus kill? Abbadon gives the impression he is an authority on many subjects including this one.
Can't even spell the name right. Quelle surprise.

All I did was point out that you claimed that your wife died from cancer and reversed and claimed she died from histoplasmosis.

You then took that as an opportunity to yet again make up baloney and hurl insults.
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Old 21st August 2017, 03:57 AM   #365
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Signs of the End Times - Part the Third

Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Can't even spell the name right. Quelle surprise.



All I did was point out that you claimed that your wife died from cancer and reversed and claimed she died from histoplasmosis.



You then took that as an opportunity to yet again make up baloney and hurl insults.


To be fair she/he does claim to be engaging in prophecy of a sort. Making up baloney is kind of necessary when you're doing that.

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Old 22nd August 2017, 11:18 AM   #366
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Can't even spell the name right. Quelle surprise.

All I did was point out that you claimed that your wife died from cancer and reversed and claimed she died from histoplasmosis.

You then took that as an opportunity to yet again make up baloney and hurl insults.

So, abaddon how do people die of a fungal infection?
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to correct username


BTW: I am hearing of more and more people getting sick more frequently and for longer periods.

Brother and his wife in NZ: Flu for seven weeks.
Our gardener. Mumps for two weeks despite childhood inoculation.
Swine flu now circulating here in SA.
Chicken farms getting struck with Avian flu.

As just some examples.

If you want to avoid the question once more, the last bit should give you an out.
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Last edited by Agatha; 29th August 2017 at 04:19 AM.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 11:41 AM   #367
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So, abaddon, how do people die of a fungal infection?
Edited by Agatha:  Edited to correct username in quote


Are you asking to challenge abaddon or because you do not understand yourself?
http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/inf...gal-infections

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
BTW: I am hearing of more and more people getting sick more frequently and for longer periods.

Brother and his wife in NZ: Flu for seven weeks.
Our gardener. Mumps for two weeks despite childhood inoculation.
Swine flu now circulating here in SA.
Chicken farms getting struck with Avian flu.

As just some examples.

If you want to avoid the question once more, the last bit should give you an out.
Confirmation bias. You're paying more attention so you're more likely to notice illnesses spreading.

Besides, it's not like it matters as far as your newspaper horoscope "prediction" is concerned. Your "prediction" was too vague to be worth consideration. Criswell has more credibility than you:

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE


I'd call you a "Pocket Criswell" but that would be insulting to both Criswell and the Pocket Fisherman.

Then there's the fact that you're "prediction" was scooped by the Daily Mail:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...erculosis.html

I guess that makes Victoria Woollaston a prophet too, eh?

Last edited by Agatha; 29th August 2017 at 04:21 AM.
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Old 22nd August 2017, 10:42 PM   #368
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Are you asking to challenge abaddon or because you do not understand yourself?
http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/inf...gal-infections
(snip)
And where does it mention the mechanism of death?

You cite a link as the be-all and end-all. Extract please.

In fact, do you know any report that lists the cause of death as "histoplasmosis"?

Give me just one example of a how a person with histoplasmosis died where one could attribute the death directly to the fungus..

I used to think I might get some intelligent feedback on this site. That hope is rapidly fading.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 04:39 AM   #369
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And where does it mention the mechanism of death?

You cite a link as the be-all and end-all. Extract please.

In fact, do you know any report that lists the cause of death as "histoplasmosis"?

Give me just one example of a how a person with histoplasmosis died where one could attribute the death directly to the fungus..

I used to think I might get some intelligent feedback on this site. That hope is rapidly fading.
There are numerous reputable medical sites that indicate that histoplasmosis can be fatal, particularly if the person's immune system is already compromised.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:14 AM   #370
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
And where does it mention the mechanism of death?
Each of the links on http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/inf...gal-infections about different kinds of fungal infections discusses the mechanisms of death. For example, if you click the Aspergillosis links you see:

Quote:
A fungus ball in the lungs may cause no symptoms and may be discovered only when a chest x-ray is taken for other reasons. Or it may cause repeated coughing up of blood and, rarely, severe, even fatal bleeding.

A rapidly invasive infection in the lungs often causes cough, fever, chest pain, and difficulty breathing. Without treatment, this form of invasive aspergillosis is fatal.

Aspergillosis that spreads to other organs makes people very ill. Symptoms include fever, chills, shock, delirium, and blood clots. Kidney failure, liver failure (causing jaundice), and breathing difficulties may develop. Death can occur quickly.

Aspergillosis of the ear canal causes itching and occasionally pain. Fluid draining overnight from the ear may leave a stain on the pillow.

Aspergillosis of the sinuses causes a feeling of congestion and sometimes pain or discharge or bleeding from the nose.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
You cite a link as the be-all and end-all. Extract please.
No, I offered it without commentary and with a vague context. I knew it provided a collection of links that would address the question of how fungal infections cause death, but I also knew you would not bother clicking any of those links. I posted it to deliberately bait you, and you took the bait, hook, line and sinker. Thank you for dancing to my tune.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
In fact, do you know any report that lists the cause of death as "histoplasmosis"?

Give me just one example of a how a person with histoplasmosis died where one could attribute the death directly to the fungus..
Histoplasmosis

Quote:
Chronic cavitary histoplasmosis
This lung infection develops gradually over several weeks, causing a cough and difficulty breathing that become increasingly worse. Symptoms include weight loss, night sweats, a mild fever, and a general feeling of illness (malaise).

Most people recover without treatment within 2 to 6 months. However, breathing difficulties may continue to worsen, and some people cough up blood, sometimes in large amounts. Lung tissue is destroyed, and scar tissue forms. Lung damage or bacterial invasion of the lungs may eventually cause death.
It's not exactly hard to find research about deaths caused by Histoplasmosis. This study for example tracks such cases over several decades:
Epidemiology of Histoplasmosis Outbreaks, United States, 1938–2013

Here's a case study about one poor soul who was killed by it.
A case study of disseminated histoplasmosis linked to common variable immunodeficiency

It's important to keep in mind that diseases like AIDS rarely kill by themselves, but allow opportunistic infections to take root and do the killing. One possible course for a death from "AIDS related symptoms" would be AIDS weakening the immune system, allowing a chronic histoplasmosis infection to develop. The fungal fiber bundle destroys lung tissue, which in turn can cause death in a number of ways.

If you want to get really, really, REALLY technical about it, nobody ever dies "directly" from an infection but from the complications of that infection. Bacteria can produce toxins that destroy cell tissue. Histoplasmosis can cause you to literally drown in you own blood from lung damage. Bacterial infections can cause a fatal level of pressure to build up in your skull or spinal column.

Here's a CDC study about a portion of the USA where the disease is relatively common:

Histoplasmosis Statistics


It doesn't discuss the mechanism of death, but it does discuss fatality statistics:

Quote:
How common is histoplasmosis? expanded
In the United States, an estimated 60% to 90% of people who live in areas surrounding the Ohio and Mississippi River valleys (where Histoplasma is common in the environment) have been exposed to the fungus at some point during their lifetime.1 One study calculated the incidence of histoplasmosis in adults aged 65 years and older in the U.S. to be 3.4 cases per 100,000 population.2 Rates were highest in the Midwest, with an estimated 6.1 cases per 100,000 population.2

Histoplasmosis is most common among people who have HIV/AIDS or a weakened immune system for another reason. It’s especially a problem in areas of the world where antiretroviral therapy (ART) is not widely available, because ART helps keep HIV-infected people from reaching the stage where they are most vulnerable to histoplasmosis and other opportunistic infections.3 In Latin America, for example, histoplasmosis is one of the most common opportunistic infections among people living with HIV, and approximately 30% of HIV/AIDS patients diagnosed with histoplasmosis die from it.4

...

Deaths due to histoplasmosis collapsed
One study of patients who were hospitalized for histoplasmosis in the U.S. estimated the crude mortality rate to be approximately 5% for children and 8% for adults.10 Another study found a six-month mortality rate of 4% among patients with symptomatic histoplasmosis.11 The overall mortality rate for histoplasmosis is likely lower than these estimates because these studies did not include patients who had less severe forms of the infection.
I could go on, but I doubt you're still reading my post at this point anyway. I'll just lob in a few other relevant links for anyone who IS reading this far into the post:

Literature Review and Case Histories of Histoplasma capsulatum var. duboisii Infections in HIV-infected Patients

Case Studies in Infectious Disease: Histoplasma Capsulatum

HIV-Associated Histoplasmosis Early Mortality and Incidence Trends: From Neglect to Priority

HISTOPLASMOSIS: A HOOSIER CONCERN

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I used to think I might get some intelligent feedback on this site. That hope is rapidly fading.
Nonsense. You're getting plenty of intelligent feedback, you're just getting your bloomers in a knot over that feedback disagreeing with your delusions about being a prophet. If you want to be taken seriously, take your vague newspaper horoscope "prophesies," dress them up with phrases about "ascending Mars" and peddle them in venues where astrology is taken seriously. If you're lucky you MIGHT find some people there stupid enough to not point out your predictions are too vague to be worthwhile.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 07:16 AM   #371
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
There are numerous reputable medical sites that indicate that histoplasmosis can be fatal, particularly if the person's immune system is already compromised.
Is this SERIOUSLY where this thread has gone? Someone is actually trying to argue that histoplasmosis can't kill as part of some convoluted chain of "logic" to declare their newspaper horoscope claims to be "prophetic?"
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Old 23rd August 2017, 09:38 AM   #372
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
(snip)
It's not exactly hard to find research about deaths caused by Histoplasmosis.
(snip)

I read all your links. I saw nothing new.

Different fungi have very different clinical presentations. And they are very dependent on how the infection occurs. Some are are easy to spot and easy to test for.

Histo has two types. American (var. capsulatum) and African (var. duboisii).

There are two basic modes of infection - acute and systemic.

The systemic (which is the fatal kind if untreated) usually only affects people who are immune-compromised (HIV typically).

In immune-compromised the symptoms are severe and obvious. In immune-competent they are not. There can be nothing on the x-rays, and nothing on the lymph nodes, and negative on the cultures of blood or urine.

It is this fungus which kills by inflammation of organs and tissues that can be mild enough to avoid needing a consult but can cause cancer or heart attacks.

Since cancer and heart attacks are the leading causes of death, no-one bothers to think whether a fungus was a primary cause.

This is the stealth mechanism I am referring to.

Do a dark-field microscopy of ones blood and one can see the presence of fungus in most people. It looks like a loose ball of cotton wool.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 09:43 AM   #373
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Originally Posted by Border Reiver View Post
There are numerous reputable medical sites that indicate that histoplasmosis can be fatal, particularly if the person's immune system is already compromised.
For untreated disseminated systemic histoplasmosis it is 100% fatal within 2 years. This is what most sites will tell you. I have no testable signs such as spots on xrays but I cannot get off the anti-fungal drug. If I stop, I get quite sick within 3-7 days. I have been on it for 6 years.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 09:48 AM   #374
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I read all your links. I saw nothing new.

Different fungi have very different clinical presentations. And they are very dependent on how the infection occurs. Some are are easy to spot and easy to test for.

Histo has two types. American (var. capsulatum) and African (var. duboisii).

There are two basic modes of infection - acute and systemic.

The systemic (which is the fatal kind if untreated) usually only affects people who are immune-compromised (HIV typically).

In immune-compromised the symptoms are severe and obvious. In immune-competent they are not. There can be nothing on the x-rays, and nothing on the lymph nodes, and negative on the cultures of blood or urine.

It is this fungus which kills by inflammation of organs and tissues that can be mild enough to avoid needing a consult but can cause cancer or heart attacks.

Since cancer and heart attacks are the leading causes of death, no-one bothers to think whether a fungus was a primary cause.

This is the stealth mechanism I am referring to.

Do a dark-field microscopy of ones blood and one can see the presence of fungus in most people. It looks like a loose ball of cotton wool.
What's your point?

What does any of that have to do with your newspaper horoscope prophesies?

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
For untreated disseminated systemic histoplasmosis it is 100% fatal within 2 years. This is what most sites will tell you. I have no testable signs such as spots on xrays but I cannot get off the anti-fungal drug. If I stop, I get quite sick within 3-7 days. I have been on it for 6 years.
What is the "anti-fungal drug" you're taking?

Could you be experiencing withdrawal effects form the drug and not necessarily a fungal infection?
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Old 23rd August 2017, 10:24 AM   #375
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So, foot fungus is a sign of the apocalypse?

Sorry. Just trying to drag the thread back on topic.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:15 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by Beady View Post
So, foot fungus is a sign of the apocalypse?

Sorry. Just trying to drag the thread back on topic.

This signature is intended to irritate people.
Topic? In this thread?

Sorry, but this thread has never been anything more than a rotating cast of failed "prophets" excreting newspaper horoscope themed nonsense and getting pissy when we didn't bow down and hail them as the new Moses. This thread is nothing more than a Jesus and Brimstone flavored version of a this:



But with the "magician" getting their bloomers in a knot when we don't think they're performing actual miracles.

Predicting there will eventually be a pandemic somewhere on Earth that may or may not involve a fungal infection is not Magic.


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Old 23rd August 2017, 12:48 PM   #377
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Zimbabwe's T Madungwe would fit in well with the other claimants in this thread:

Prophet claims he beat up God in a heaven wrestling match, wins using Batista bomb
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Old 23rd August 2017, 10:18 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
What's your point?

What does any of that have to do with your newspaper horoscope prophesies?



What is the "anti-fungal drug" you're taking?

Could you be experiencing withdrawal effects form the drug and not necessarily a fungal infection?
The point is that fungal infections can damage organs, cause heart failure, cause cancer and repress the immune system. If a variant becomes transmittable and/or combines with other pathogens then we could have a "silent" outbreak similar to AIDs but not spread via sexual contact. If it is drug resistant, then the world has a serious problem.

I am taking itraconazole. At half maximum dose daily, but there are times I go to maximum dose. Withdrawal? Interesting thought. The key symptoms of the infection are pain and nausea, and at this point can recognize them. I will search for withdrawal symptoms though.
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Old 24th August 2017, 04:51 AM   #379
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
The point is that fungal infections can damage organs, cause heart failure, cause cancer and repress the immune system. If a variant becomes transmittable and/or combines with other pathogens then we could have a "silent" outbreak similar to AIDs but not spread via sexual contact. If it is drug resistant, then the world has a serious problem.

Fair enough. That said, just about anything can become a pandemic with the right mutations. Common brewing and baking yeast can take root in the gut and bloodstream of immune compromised individuals causing a disease known as "auto-brewery syndrome." Blood glucose is literally being fermented into alcohol in the gut and bloodstream. A mutation that allows yeast to do that in healthy people would result in a pandemic of people walking around drunk as they starved to death at the cellular level.

Have you ever played the game "Pandemic" in either digital or board game form? You seem to be RPGing it in this thread.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am taking itraconazole. At half maximum dose daily, but there are times I go to maximum dose. Withdrawal? Interesting thought. The key symptoms of the infection are pain and nausea, and at this point can recognize them. I will search for withdrawal symptoms though.

JESUS CHRIST MAN! How long have you been on it?

What other medications are you taking and have you had both your doctor and your pharmacist explicitly check for known drug interactions?

How often are you having liver panels done? Every month? Every six weeks?
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Old 24th August 2017, 05:04 AM   #380
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
JESUS CHRIST MAN! How long have you been on it?

What other medications are you taking and have you had both your doctor and your pharmacist explicitly check for known drug interactions?

How often are you having liver panels done? Every month? Every six weeks?
After "6 years" on "itraconazole" and whatever else, he may not have any liver function left, but will certainly have shiny clear toenails.
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Old 24th August 2017, 05:51 AM   #381
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Originally Posted by Tony99 View Post
After "6 years" on "itraconazole" and whatever else, he may not have any liver function left, but will certainly have shiny clear toenails.
This stuff isn't intended for long term use.

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a692049.html

Quote:
IMPORTANT WARNING:
Itraconazole can cause heart failure (condition in which the heart cannot pump enough blood through the body). Tell your doctor if you have or have ever had heart failure. Your doctor may tell you not to take itraconazole. Also tell your doctor if you have or have ever had a heart attack; an irregular heartbeat; or any other type of heart, lung , liver or kidney disease. If you experience any of the following symptoms, stop taking itraconazole and call your doctor immediately: shortness of breath; coughing up white or pink phlegm; weakness; excessive tiredness; fast heartbeat; swelling of the feet, ankles, or legs; waking up at night; and sudden weight gain.

Do not take cisapride (Propulsid) (not available in the U.S.), disopyramide (Norpace), dofetilide (Tikosyn), dronedarone (Multaq), eplerenone (Inspra), ergot-type medications such as dihydroergotamine (D.H.E, Migranal), ergotamine (Ergomar, in Cafergot, in Migergot), methylergometrine (Methergine); felodipine (Plendil), irinotecan (Camptosar), ivabradine (Corlanor), levomethadyl acetate (Orlaam) (not available in the U.S.),lovastatin (Altoprev, in Advicor), lurasidone (Latuda), methadone (Dolophine, Methadose), midazolam (taken by mouth), nisoldipine (Sular), pimozide (Orap), quinidine (in Nuedexta), ranolazine (Ranexa), simvastatin (Zocor, in Simcor, in Vytorin), ticagrelor (Brilinta), and triazolam (Halcion) while taking itraconazole and for 2 weeks afterward. Tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver disease and are taking any of the following medication: colchicine (Colcrys, Mitigare), fesoterodine (Toviaz), solifenacin (Vesicare), or telithromycin (Ketek). Taking these medications with itraconazole can cause serious heart problems including QT prolongation (an irregular heart rhythm that can lead to fainting, loss of consciousness, seizures, or sudden death).

Talk to your doctor about the risks of taking itraconazole
I have a strong suspicion that he's doing something crazy like buying one of cat versions from a pet store and going by the advice of a quack of some ilk.

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
I am taking itraconazole. At half maximum dose daily, but there are times I go to maximum dose.
Are you getting the itraconazole through a medical professional? If so, what's their specialty? Are you going though an infectious disease expert or one of the alt-med wack-a-loons?
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Old 24th August 2017, 11:58 AM   #382
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
This stuff isn't intended for long term use.

https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a692049.html

I have a strong suspicion that he's doing something crazy like buying one of cat versions from a pet store and going by the advice of a quack of some ilk.

Are you getting the itraconazole through a medical professional? If so, what's their specialty? Are you going though an infectious disease expert or one of the alt-med wack-a-loons?

My GP prescribes and gives me blood tests every so often (about once a year).

He has treated cavers who get the disease and he works at the university on hyperbaric research.

The first pamphlets said that treatment duration was 6-12 months and up to 2 years, but that life long therapy may be required. I looked to see if I kept any of those but I did not.

It seems that lifelong maintenance therapy is required for immuno-suppressed patients such as those with HIV.

In the beginning I was tested for C-reactive protein which tests for inflammation. Mine was high and came down with the intraconazole.

The symptoms I get if I stop are nausea and pain. If I stop for longer periods I can get the odd fungal growths that look like skin cancer. Also get a lot of mucus, even to the point of even foaming. Added to that would be groin and foot fungal outbreaks despite being very careful.

My blood tests always come back as near perfect. I have good genes which is why I did not die before diagnosis.

Histoplasmosis expert? None around. I went to the National Mycology labs to see a professor. They told me that I could not get disseminated histoplasmosis unless I had HIV.

The online research makes it seem like the experts have this thing nailed. Not so. When one reads of cases that have gone undetected for a long time before the cause if finally found, one realizes that there are a huge number of symptoms, and a huge number of types of infection.

There are 1.5 million varieties of fungus. 0.8 million have been identified.
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Old 24th August 2017, 12:15 PM   #383
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
My GP prescribes and gives me blood tests every so often (about once a year).

He has treated cavers who get the disease and he works at the university on hyperbaric research.

The first pamphlets said that treatment duration was 6-12 months and up to 2 years, but that life long therapy may be required. I looked to see if I kept any of those but I did not.

It seems that lifelong maintenance therapy is required for immuno-suppressed patients such as those with HIV.

In the beginning I was tested for C-reactive protein which tests for inflammation. Mine was high and came down with the intraconazole.

The symptoms I get if I stop are nausea and pain. If I stop for longer periods I can get the odd fungal growths that look like skin cancer. Also get a lot of mucus, even to the point of even foaming. Added to that would be groin and foot fungal outbreaks despite being very careful.

My blood tests always come back as near perfect. I have good genes which is why I did not die before diagnosis.

Histoplasmosis expert? None around. I went to the National Mycology labs to see a professor. They told me that I could not get disseminated histoplasmosis unless I had HIV.

The online research makes it seem like the experts have this thing nailed. Not so. When one reads of cases that have gone undetected for a long time before the cause if finally found, one realizes that there are a huge number of symptoms, and a huge number of types of infection.

There are 1.5 million varieties of fungus. 0.8 million have been identified.
My apologies for jumping to conclusions about the sorts of doctors you were seeing. We get a lot of, er, interesting characters here.

I'm sorry you're dealing with such a frustrating medical situation.
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Old 24th August 2017, 11:41 PM   #384
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
My apologies for jumping to conclusions about the sorts of doctors you were seeing. We get a lot of, er, interesting characters here.

I'm sorry you're dealing with such a frustrating medical situation.
Thanks for the sympathy. No problem on my side as to the exchange.

My problems with this fungus made me realize how doctors can overlook an underlying primary cause because the symptoms look first like flu, then like other medical afflictions, before causing heart attacks, cancer or organ failure. No-one thinks to check if there was an underlying fungal infection at post-mortem.


So now, we can get back to woo-bashing me for my views.

If God said to me that there will be a major pandemic, it seems like a stealth pathogen LIKE a fungus (or a fungus-like pathogen) is a candidate - because of my own experiences. Why else would he kill my wife, infect my son, and make me suffer?
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Old 25th August 2017, 12:28 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
If God said to me that there will be a major pandemic, it seems like a stealth pathogen LIKE a fungus (or a fungus-like pathogen) is a candidate - because of my own experiences. Why else would he kill my wife, infect my son, and make me suffer?
Because he's a sadist? If there is an omnipotent god that would seem to be the most plausible explanation for the things he does/allows to happen.

Alternatively people who get sick just have rotten luck, and you have fooled yourself into believing that your Tarot reading hit rate is higher than should be expected.

I guess time will tell.
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Old 25th August 2017, 04:39 AM   #386
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Thanks for the sympathy. No problem on my side as to the exchange.

My problems with this fungus made me realize how doctors can overlook an underlying primary cause because the symptoms look first like flu, then like other medical afflictions, before causing heart attacks, cancer or organ failure. No-one thinks to check if there was an underlying fungal infection at post-mortem.


So now, we can get back to woo-bashing me for my views.

If God said to me that there will be a major pandemic, it seems like a stealth pathogen LIKE a fungus (or a fungus-like pathogen) is a candidate - because of my own experiences. Why else would he kill my wife, infect my son, and make me suffer?
To strengthen your faith, of course.

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Old 25th August 2017, 06:55 AM   #387
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Thanks for the sympathy. No problem on my side as to the exchange.
Many of us have first- or secondhand experience with tragic medical conditions. We may disagree on the intellectual subjects we discuss, but we're not uncaring when it comes to the universal human condition.

Quote:
So now, we can get back to woo-bashing me for my views.
But let's be clear. You're voluntarily presenting claims of supernatural ability to an audience of skeptics. Naturally -- because this is what skeptics do -- you're being asked to supply evidence of the claim, and you don't have any. I'm baffled at why you didn't expect the response you're getting, given the circumstances. But then the answer is likely that you do expect the response, and facing that opposition validates and enlivens your beliefs. There's a trope among the religious that "suffering stripes" for the cause is somehow laudable. If you honestly don't like "woo-bashing," go find an audience you can expect to be more sympathetic.

Quote:
If God said to me that there will be a major pandemic, it seems like a stealth pathogen LIKE a fungus...
Well, sure. You're right in saying your own experience should underscore the fear the ancient people who wrote the Bible had of chronic or contagious diseases. It makes perfect sense that they would think of the end of the world in terms of catastrophes like that.

But now, thousands of years later, we have better medicine and a better understanding of epidemiology, and so we don't need to have the visceral fear of global pandemics that we once did. That doesn't mean we've eliminated all disease or suffering, but that the end of the world is not something we need to fear with the emergence of every new pathogen.

Quote:
Why else would he kill my wife, infect my son, and make me suffer?
Because frankly that's something the Christian god would do. He's not the paragon of justice and righteousness his followers paint him as. Survey the previous pages of this thread for examples.

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Old 25th August 2017, 01:25 PM   #388
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
To be fair she/he does claim to be engaging in prophecy of a sort. Making up baloney is kind of necessary when you're doing that.
It's actually part of the job description.
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Old 25th August 2017, 01:46 PM   #389
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Thanks for the sympathy. No problem on my side as to the exchange.

My problems with this fungus made me realize how doctors can overlook an underlying primary cause because the symptoms look first like flu, then like other medical afflictions, before causing heart attacks, cancer or organ failure. No-one thinks to check if there was an underlying fungal infection at post-mortem.


So now, we can get back to woo-bashing me for my views.

If God said to me that there will be a major pandemic, it seems like a stealth pathogen LIKE a fungus (or a fungus-like pathogen) is a candidate - because of my own experiences. Why else would he kill my wife, infect my son, and make me suffer?
So far, you have a pandemic of three, of whom you claim to be the vector.

I'm scared. (Not)
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Old 26th August 2017, 04:44 AM   #390
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
(snip)
Because frankly that's something the Christian god would do. He's not the paragon of justice and righteousness his followers paint him as. Survey the previous pages of this thread for examples.
What about God giving us free will and allowing the laws of physics to play out MOST of the time?

What about intervening only when necessary for the GREATER GOOD? For that I am prepared to take my knocks.
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Old 26th August 2017, 04:53 AM   #391
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
What about God giving us free will and allowing the laws of physics to play out MOST of the time?



What about intervening only when necessary for the GREATER GOOD? For that I am prepared to take my knocks.


Have you READ the Bible cover to cover?

God is violent, jealous, vindictive and capricious. The Old Testament is dripping with blood shed on his direct orders. His primary advantage over Zeus is he only raped and impregnated ONE underage girl.

Randomly murdering a man's family and affliction that man with a persistent disease is the plot of the book of Job for crying out loud. Don't bother asking God, "Why?" You might as well as a scorpion why he stings.
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Old 26th August 2017, 06:38 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
What about God giving us free will and allowing the laws of physics to play out MOST of the time?

What about intervening only when necessary for the GREATER GOOD? For that I am prepared to take my knocks.
I can think of plenty of occasions where it was necessary for God to intervene for the GREATER GOOD, yet he did not. The wholesale murder of six million of his chosen people, for example. The horrific deaths of a quarter of a million people in the Boxing Day tsunami. The deaths of about half the population of Europe from bubonic plague. And so on.

So when precisely did God override the laws of physics in order to intervene for the GREATER GOOD? You must know of a few examples (outside of myth and legend, of course) if you're seriously suggesting this, so let's have them.
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Old 26th August 2017, 08:50 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
What about God giving us free will and allowing the laws of physics to play out MOST of the time?

What about intervening only when necessary for the GREATER GOOD? For that I am prepared to take my knocks.
Are there any verifiable cases of such intervention? Merely beating the odds doesn't count.

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Old 26th August 2017, 09:56 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
What about God giving us free will and allowing the laws of physics to play out MOST of the time?
Sure, that happens but that's not the point. The point is not man's free will, but God's capricious nature regardless of what man does.

Quote:
What about intervening only when necessary for the GREATER GOOD? For that I am prepared to take my knocks.
What about intervening whenever it suits his whims? The story of Job is a good one. God has a bet with Satan than he can antagonize a perfectly righteous man for no reason other than to decide the bet. From that it's hard to establish the premise that when God acts, he acts justly.

You are the one who asked why God would afflict your family when presumably they hadn't done anything to deserve it, unless it was an end-times pandemic. The presumption is that God wouldn't act unfairly, so if he appeared to then it would have to be the special circumstance of the end times. But that presumption isn't supported by data, and appealing to natural causes doesn't fix your syllogism.

Sure, I can accept that outcomes can be reckoned religiously as a combination of natural acts and God's acts. The problem is when actions we confidently attribute to God are not, shall we say, "godly." That makes it hard to attribute outcomes to the indiscriminate acts of nature versus the capricious acts of God. Unless God's "signal" can be clearly distinguished from the natural "noise," there's no reason to suppose there is a God.

And we see this all the time among religious people: God's purposes are "higher" than ours, or simply mysterious. This excuses God from behaving, effectively, any differently than nature. Occam's Razor says we don't need that sort of god in that case.
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Old 27th August 2017, 10:42 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by halleyscomet View Post
Have you READ the Bible cover to cover?

God is violent, jealous, vindictive and capricious. The Old Testament is dripping with blood shed on his direct orders. His primary advantage over Zeus is he only raped and impregnated ONE underage girl.

Randomly murdering a man's family and affliction that man with a persistent disease is the plot of the book of Job for crying out loud. Don't bother asking God, "Why?" You might as well as a scorpion why he stings.

So if there is no God, then one has to assume that mankind consists of violent savages, and once mankind (helped by atheists) realizes there are no consequences for their actions they will cause the apocalypse all by themselves.

Hmm. Your outlook on life and God is seen through blood-colored spectacles.
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Old 27th August 2017, 10:53 AM   #396
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
I can think of plenty of occasions where it was necessary for God to intervene for the GREATER GOOD, yet he did not. The wholesale murder of six million of his chosen people, for example. The horrific deaths of a quarter of a million people in the Boxing Day tsunami. The deaths of about half the population of Europe from bubonic plague. And so on.

So when precisely did God override the laws of physics in order to intervene for the GREATER GOOD? You must know of a few examples (outside of myth and legend, of course) if you're seriously suggesting this, so let's have them.

The plague - brought about the fall of the elite.
Tsunami - collateral damage from a natural event (0.25 million out of 7 billion).
Holocaust - has not stopped the Jews from believing in God or their chosen-ness.

Many wars were brought to an end by disease. WW1 was one.

War and strife are an impetus to scientific advancement. The weaker societies fall by the wayside.

Has mankind not reached the pinnacle of human endeavor by the sum total of everything that has happened?

Mankind is at a turning point. No God = Human extinction. But no God, no soul, who cares?
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Old 27th August 2017, 11:14 AM   #397
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Once again: so when precisely did God override the laws of physics in order to intervene for the GREATER GOOD? You must know of a few examples (outside of myth and legend, of course) if you're seriously suggesting this, so let's have them.

I don't want excuses for when he didn't, I want examples of when he did.
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Old 27th August 2017, 11:54 AM   #398
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Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
So if there is no God, then one has to assume that mankind consists of violent savages, and once mankind (helped by atheists) realizes there are no consequences for their actions they will cause the apocalypse all by themselves.
Utterly wrong. Altruism is not dependant upon belief in any god at all. Where, for example, do you get your moral compass? The bible? The Koran? Somewhere else?

Originally Posted by PartSkeptic View Post
Hmm. Your outlook on life and God is seen through blood-colored spectacles.
Also utterly wrong. God wears the blood-coloured spectacles, being a capricious blood-thirsty savage.
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Old 27th August 2017, 09:41 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Utterly wrong. Altruism is not dependant upon belief in any god at all. Where, for example, do you get your moral compass? The bible? The Koran? Somewhere else?

Also utterly wrong. God wears the blood-coloured spectacles, being a capricious blood-thirsty savage.
I get my moral compass from two sources. One is from my parents - my mother was believing Christian. And the other is from the soul that guides my physical body.

Do you even have a moral compass? And if so, where did you get your principles from?

God wears the spectacles? Oh, so there is a God! Just a bad one in your opinion. Better not get on the wrong side of him.
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Old 27th August 2017, 09:44 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
Once again: so when precisely did God override the laws of physics in order to intervene for the GREATER GOOD? You must know of a few examples (outside of myth and legend, of course) if you're seriously suggesting this, so let's have them.

I don't want excuses for when he didn't, I want examples of when he did.
This is getting to be a tired debating point. Prove the unprovable.

Yesterday I had fruit salad. I know it. Fact. Can I prove it? No? What did you eat two days ago? Proof?

As for your precision - do you want 5 or 10 sigma?
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